Is it supposed to be this hard?

[jisk]

I've got four planes - all mujingfang. I just can't seem to be able to cut smoothly, and I don't know what I'm doing wrong!

I've spent so much time sharpening these things that anyone would have thought that they should be able to slice through wood like a ginsu. Instead, I have to push (or pull) so bloody hard to make a shaving it's not funny. The shavings don't curl either - they look jagged, cause the process sure ain't smooth.

I'm using sandpaper to sharpen, with a veritas mk 2 honing guide.

Help! What am I doing wrong? This is nothing like how using a plane was back in intermediate school. Although then it wasn't me doing the sharpening!

[rsser]

What kinds of wood are you working Jisk?

Added: I get shavings like those with eg. Mountain Ash. They look pretty thin so presumably you're not trying to cut too deep.

The little smoother is prob. high angle which will take more effort.

Have you lapped the back of the blades?

[Krazee]

Try lightly rubbing a bit of parrafin wax or candle wax on the bottom of the plane. It reduces friction between the plane and the wood.

[Anglewood]

Have you flattened the bed of the plane lately?
Set the blade in the plane so it doesn't cut and give it a rub on a sheet of 120 on your glass. You may find the bed is not flat,this will cause cutting problems.
I have a HNT Gordon smoothing plane that requires regular tune ups and this is the recommended method.

[echnidna]

have you got the blade adjustsed for a coarse cut or a fine cut?

[MikeW]

I've got four planes - all mujingfang. I just can't seem to be able to cut smoothly...

Hi Jisk,

In the picture of the shavings, it appears as thought the board below the plane has chatter marks? Or is that curly figure? If it is chatter, it would appear that the blade is simply set to take too coarse a shaving.

It is possible that the sole of that plane is not flat if you need to extend the blade significantly far enough out to get it to cut at all. If that is so, you need to flatten the sole. Do that be having the blade in (but retracted so the edge is a 1/4" or so above the mouth opening), wedge installed to the amount of pressure you use to hold the blade in place normally, and sandpaper adhered to glass, a jointer table, smooth flat bench top section, etc.

First try lowering the amount the blade projects. Follow Terry Gordon's instructions on the HNT web site for setting the blade. But do also check the sole for flatness.

Take care, Mike

[jisk]

Guys, lots of questions - I'll answer as best I can.

What kinds of wood are you working Jisk?

Added: I get shavings like those with eg. Mountain Ash. They look pretty thin so presumably you're not trying to cut too deep.

The little smoother is prob. high angle which will take more effort.

Have you lapped the back of the blades?

The wood that I'm using to test the planes is pine - I'm trying to get the planes sharp enough to work tassie oak and then ironbark. Yes the shavings are thin. I've been trying to work on the two larger planes - the little smoother I got to a point where it was "ok" but not particularly smooth.

I've lapped the backs of the blades for about half an hour each and then did a microbevel with the ruler trick.

Try lightly rubbing a bit of parrafin wax or candle wax on the bottom of the plane. It reduces friction between the plane and the wood.

I haven't tried that, but I don't think it's the problem because the plane is very smooth without the blade in it - very little friction.

Have you flattened the bed of the plane lately?

I've never flattened the beds of the planes. I've hardly used them, as well. Should I do this? Should I use Al Oxide sandpaper (clearly not wet and dry for a wooden plane)?

have you got the blade adjustsed for a coarse cut or a fine cut?

The blade is adjusted for a very fine cut, so I would have thought that would be pretty easy for the plane to handle.

In the picture of the shavings, it appears as thought the board below the plane has chatter marks? Or is that curly figure? If it is chatter, it would appear that the blade is simply set to take too coarse a shaving. [and more]

Mike, you're right, the board does have chatter marks. The blade is hardly protruding - it's definitely less than half a mm. I'll check if the sole is flat. That's something that I didn't know I had to do. It looks flat to the eyeball... but maybe not flat enough.

I don't have anybody to show me the ropes as such, and the books aren't any good for this kind of stuff - if I can get this sorted with forum help, I will be one happy camper.

[Anglewood]

If you have not flattened the bed of the plane and looking at the pic you have your sharpening organized I would give the bed of the plane a rub on a sheet of 120 nofill paper on glass.
Wood bodied planes should be flattened before you first use them,then at regular intervals . It only takes a couple of minutes and if you know the blade is sharp and set fine and the sole of the plane is flat you have the basics covered.

[J.E. Mike Tobey]

I note that you spoke of how much time you spent flattening the backs. Is the leading edge truly flat and shiny all of the way across? It may be that you think you have sharp but it is really a very small wire edge that tears off on the first stroke. I'm just "brainstorming" here because I don't use the Japanese style planes at all.mt

[rsser]

And the palm smoother is already high angle and shouldn't need a back bevel.

Lot's to fettle with such a simple tool ;-}

[derekcohen]

Like Mike, I also noticed the chatter marks. There can be a couple of reasons for this...

Firstly, again as Mike noted, the blade may be projected too far, and often this is forced as the tow and heel lie at a higher plane. The solution is to flatten the sole.

Secondly, the wedge may be loose, or just not tight enough, allowing the blade to vibrate or move as you plane.

Thirdly, the blade may not be sharp enough. Can you pare endgrain pine? Shave arm hair (make it pop off your arm?)? The usual issue here is that you have not established a proper primary bevel (one that produced a burr when you hone). Unless this occurs, all you are doing is polishing a rounded bevel.

The back of the blade is probably OK if you are using the Ruler Trick correctly. On the other hand, using this technique doe make it a little harder to tell if you are honing the primary bevel completely.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[sumu]

I have tuned up quite a lot of planes, and one of the most ignored things is plane iron bedding. Even those who maintain the sole flatness, sharpen well and even tune up the symmetrical grip of the wedge, have not checked out the compatibility of iron back and iron bedding.

I recommend the widest available, dead straight mill cut file for such task. There is usually indeed not much wood (or metal) to be removed, but it is essential. it may be that only "showing" the file there makes the difference. Sometimes a bit more is needed, and sometimes the iron bedding surface must be rebuilt. The latter case is rare, although I have done that, too.

There is surprisingly tricky situations when recycling an old iron in new plane. The iron bedding of new plane is dead straight and flat, but the iron is not, only looks like it. In those old and very thick tapered irons, this is really something to be checked out first.

kippis,

sumu

[JDarvall]

The blade bedding is a big issue I've found with all planes.

Feel those shavings arn't that thick. Should be able to handle that. Though its hard to say from here.

On pine you don't need a high angled bed. Wrong plane IMO. A normal 45 degree bedded plane will work much better. Get an old stanley. You'll find it easier to adjust as well.

With the ones that are chattering, have a good look at the blade for starters...is the blade bowed ? .....When you've got the blade clamped up with the wedge in...does the blade, when looking from the sole side, look firmly planted on the bed ?........if you get a small stick of wood and push reasonably hard on the blade from that side, can you flex the blade ?....Because that may be the problem if you can. That blade should be bound tight all around the bevel of the blade. No movement.

All the rest mentioned prior as well...flat sole....start with no setting and make light taps on the blade to bring the blade down ever so slowly to a fine shaving. Centred. is the blade sharp enough.....even if a small portion of the blade is blunt, it will affect the plane.

There not easy at first. You need plenty of patience. goodluck.

[jisk]

Guys,

Just for the record, the plane I'm trying all of this stuff on is the larger taiwanese style plane. It's got a 45 degree bed angle.

I've now flattened the sole of the plane on sandpaper. Judging by how the sole wore as I sanded it down, it wasn't perfectly, although it was pretty close to it. I had it flat within a couple of minutes.

I note that you spoke of how much time you spent flattening the backs. Is the leading edge truly flat and shiny all of the way across?

Mike, the leading edge of the back doesn't have a mirror surface. Does it need to? I gave it another chop today - I spent about an hour and a half on the leading 1/2" of the back on 120 W&D, and then over the next hour went through 360, 600 and then 1200. It still doesnt' shine like a mirror. In fact, I can still see some grind marks... how long should this take?

...plane iron bedding...

I'm not exactly sure how to tell if that's a problem, but the iron seems to stay put when I wedge it in.

...With the ones that are chattering...

Apricotripper, I've now checked the blade in the plane and it sits pretty solid. I must have caused the chatter marks by trying the plane out with the blade not in proper - or it might have been teh whole bloody plane vibrating because the blade couldn't cut the wood.

Thirdly, the blade may not be sharp enough. Can you pare endgrain pine? Shave arm hair (make it pop off your arm?)? The usual issue here is that you have not established a proper primary bevel (one that produced a burr when you hone). Unless this occurs, all you are doing is polishing a rounded bevel.

I've made sure the wedge is tight so I'm pretty sure it's not that. It must be to do with the sharpness of the blade. It certainly can't pare pine endgrain or shave arm hair. I must be doing something wrong with my sharpening.

After giving the sharpening a chop this afternoon, I tried the same piece of pine. I had the blade sticking out just every so slightly. I managed to take some shavings, but not very well. If I pushed like I was trying to get a sumo out of the ring I could take shavings. I don't think that's quite ideal...

The way I've been trying to sharpen is this:

1. Put mineral oil on the sandpaper.

2. With the blunt end (ha ha) of the blade on a ruler and back of the blade face down, wipe the blade from side to side on 600 grit and then 1200 grit, about a dozen times on each.

3. I attempt to sharpen like they have in an article at FWW (http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworki....aspx?id=25403), but a little different - I could be totally stuffing it up. I push down with a hefty amount of force on the front of the blade for most of it. The grind angle on the plane blade is 30 degrees, so I set the jig to around 34 degrees to hone a microbevel. Back and forth on the
360 grit for a couple of minutes. Change angle to 35 degrees with the microbevel wheel. Back and forth on 600 grit a few dozen times, back and forth on 1200 grit a couple of dozen times.

4. Take the blade out of the jig, get the ruler out, and wipe it backwards a few times on the 1200 grit (similar to how I did it in step two, but backwards).

Then I try to cut some arm hairs and fail miserably.

Also, I'm using the standard wet and dry from bunnings - I'm assuming that this is OK sandpaper?

[derekcohen]

OK, it's pretty obvious where the problem lies. Think Festo sander ... OK, just checking to see if you are paying attention!

The blade is miserable. It longs to be sharp. But it cannot get sharp because you have (1) not created a clean primary bevel, and two, not honed both sides to an equal and high enough grit level. (3) Since you are using a Mujingfang blade, the chances are that it is HSS and the steel is hard, hard, hard. Did I mention hard? So you likely give up before you are properly done. Sorry, got to go back and do it again!

1. Flatten the back of the blade for at least 1/2" - 1" from the back of the bevel. Use 100 grit on glass. .... Do not stop until the back is flat to the edge (you will feel a burr there - do not stop until you have this burr .... I think this is where you started all your problems!). Use a waterproof Texta to to guide your way ... Oh hell, it is easier to just go to my tutorial ..
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/d...lappBlade1.asp

2. Once you have the back of the blade to at least 6000 grit waterstone or 2000 grit W&D, then you can begin on the front, the face bevel.

3. You may prefer to just hone a microbevel if the steel is too hard. Go here for a simple, cheap, repeatable method. Or just borrow the essence so you now what you need to do.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/d.../sharpSys1.asp

Now go and make shavings!

Regards from Perth

Derek