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  1. #1
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    Nov 2004
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    Default Sharpening: Norton Vs King Vs Shapton Vs Whatever...

    Well, I'm in the market for a new sharpening system. This is a result of some stones being stolen (I suspect from the open house inspections when my house was sold) and from the remaining ones being dragged off the bench and dropped onto a concrete garage floor yesterday .

    I could just replace my stolen/damaged stones with King stones (they worked fine for me) but as I have to replace them all I might as well consider all the alternatives.

    For instance, what about a set of Shapton GlassStones as an alternative? I've read a lot about their Pro series waterstones but I know nothing about the GlassStones.

    How do the Norton stones compare to the King stones? I've only ever had King stones.

    Has anybody used the "Japanese Super-Stones" from Tools for Working Wood? They sound similar to the Shapton Pro waterstones.

    I've used scary sharp before and frankly I didn't have a lot of success. Too much abrasive failure for my patience.

    I haven't used oil stones before so I wouldn't even know what to buy as a set.

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Lindfield N.S.W.
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    Mark

    If you have had success with the Kings and you get a really good edge quickly with them, then I would get another set of Kings, whatever other people say about Shaptons, Nortons, etc.

    Why?

    Because for me sharpening is just a necessary evil - you have to do it in order to do what you want to do ( ie woodwork) and once you have a system that works for you, time spent becoming adept at a new system is time not spent on doing what you want to do.

    But if you really think that you could get a better edge or you think that you could do a quicker job if you had new stones and put in the effort to learn how to use them to the best advantage, then change. Otherwise, why bother?

    PS I don't have a view on which of the systems is best - I still use a grinder and scary sharp a la WASP for my main sharpening and diamond plates for a quick hone. It works for me and means that I can spend the money I save on other tools or on wood!
    Cheers

    Jeremy
    If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly

  4. #3
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    Default

    Hi Mark,

    Sorry to hear about your stones, stolen and dropped. Very much a 'not happy Jan' moment. Enough to make ya cry.

    Can't help with the comparison either, am mostly an oil stone and also sandpaper sharpener. Am intending to try moving to diamond plates followed by Shapton stones. Just have to buy some more Shaptons.

    Tis a very polarised opinion topic, sharpening that is. Lots of pros and cons and they differ for different people.

    I do like the look of the new glass stones. Richard Vaughan did a review of them in the latest Aust. Wood Review magazine. He liked them too, worth a read.

    Best of luck. Sorry, I haven't helped much.

    Cheers
    Pops

  5. #4
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    Default

    Mark, that sucks. Thieves should be shot and dropping tools is the pits .

    My experience with sharpening to date has seen me change from oil, to scary sharp to waterstones and diamond.

    I use two DMT diamond plates to flatten and have one Shapton pro series 5000 grit. The Shapton is better than the Kings I have and works the steel much faster in my experience.

    What you may want to do is contact someone who has both and take along a favourite tool that you know, and know how long it takes to sharpen. Do a test, if the results tell you a Shapton if better then get them, if not, stay with the Kings.

    I have found the larger diamond plates fantastic for flattening stones and flattening blades etc.

  6. #5
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    Default

    Finding someone locally that has both stones could be a bit of an ask! If there is someone here in Brisbane that does, let me know by PM.

    While the results from the King stones were OK, they were certainly far from fast in getting that result.

    In any event, I don't want to fetishise this. I too think of it as a necessary evil but it is an important gateway skill for successful woodworking. It's pretty hard to do much without it.

  7. #6
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    Default

    I have king stones and I would not get them again because:

    1- They are to soft so they dish really fast, I bought mine just over a year ago, and avoid flattening them to often as they are almost half way gone.

    2- The kings do not cut as fast fast as other mediums like sand paper and diamond plates that I have used.

    3- The kings cannot cut harder modern steels, like D2, M2 and other HSS blades.

    4- Water stones are messy.

    I have used a diamond plates and like them far more, as soon as the money comes in I will switch to DMT diamond plates and diamond paste for honing.

    I have never used Shaptons and other water stones so I cannot compare.

  8. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by markharrison View Post

    In any event, I don't want to fetishise this. I too think of it as a necessary evil but it is an important gateway skill for successful woodworking. It's pretty hard to do much without it.
    I agree - hope someone is able to let you have a go with their stones etc so you can make a choice.
    Cheers

    Jeremy
    If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly

  9. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by markharrison View Post
    Finding someone locally that has both stones could be a bit of an ask! If there is someone here in Brisbane that does, let me know by PM.

    While the results from the King stones were OK, they were certainly far from fast in getting that result.

    In any event, I don't want to fetishise this. I too think of it as a necessary evil but it is an important gateway skill for successful woodworking. It's pretty hard to do much without it.
    Most of us like very sharp tools and do not particularly like sharpening them. The reason I like the diamond and Shapton combination is that (once a tool has come off the grinder) the diamond plates flatten backs very quickly and the Shaptons do an equally fast but good job on the bevels. Other than going to get a bucket of water, there is very little fuss or cleanup.

    Sadly for you, there are others who find the scarey sharp method just as convenient, or oilstones, or...

    Which is why I suggested trying the other methods, you will find one that 'clicks' for you. As for finding someone with both, you may be lucky because some people keep trying other methods. There may also be someone out there with some Shaptons will to let you try them out.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Default

    I have Tormek, Shapton,had King, had Norton, have diamonds and really fine quallity oilstones. Shaptons are not hype. They cut faster, cup less and provide a superior finished edge( after strop on greenbarred horse butt and uncharged horse butt. The Kings were quite adequate- I bought them used from a colleague just to try them and determined that they are a good set for the money. Nortons- bought new 1K-4Kand 4K-8k. Harder resin than other waterstones, took a lot of work to cup them-could have used forever with no complaints. Diamonds- have pastes that I play with and the stuff is amazing- have pretty much the entire DMT line. They are tops for anything but the last two stages leading to ultra-sharp. They are flat(yes, even the ones set in plastic) and flatten my waterstones easily; they also flatten blade backs before honing stage and ideal for shaping narrow edged tools before final stone. I have used oilstones for 52 years and keep a top quality set ready to go- in fact, a soft and translucent are in my kitchen right now.

    Finally, a paragraph-whew- Shaptons. In my opinion the pro series is the best out there. I have 5K,8K and 12K.I only use them freehand- in my kitchen- before my blades see a Shapton, they have spent time withe the diamonds and likely the Torkek. I will often use a Veritas Mk.II jig on oilstones and diamonds to set a bevel. I have become so comfortable with the Shaptons that I really use all of the surface of a stone. If you were watching you would see 1/2 the width of the tool hanging out in space. If you really use the whole surface of the stones you don't have to flatten as often.For mine, water tap running, 3-4 strokes of the DMT Coarse and those Shaptons are flat. On our WoodNet forum, I have sharpened all of the edged tools I have sold, and have done honing/shaping of members' edges. The usual comment is" I don't think I have ever had something that sharp in my shop before." Believe me, I have gross deficiencies in woodworking - apparently the Big Fella decided to give me a gift- and with 52 years of practice I can get above average results. Each of you have your zones of excellence as well.

    HEY-what about oilstones??? Well, they were my only honing medium for 48 years. A Soft Arkansas, a hard Arkansas and two blacks and two translucents. If I were to go back to Arkansas stones as my system, I would repurchase the Norton Multi-Stone, loaded with a diamond, a lilywhite and a surgical black- mineral spirits as the cleanser.

    Sorry this is so know- it -all. I don't have references unless someone who has seen and felt my work pokes his head in. Humbly, Mike

  11. #10
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Groggy View Post
    My experience with sharpening to date has seen me change from oil, to scary sharp to waterstones and diamond.

    I use two DMT diamond plates to flatten and have one Shapton pro series 5000 grit. The Shapton is better than the Kings I have and works the steel much faster in my experience.

    I have found the larger diamond plates fantastic for flattening stones and flattening blades etc.
    Hi Mike,

    After trying a lot of sharpening methods I intend to go with what Groggy has said. I know a few others that have migrated to this method, Diamond plates followed/combined with Shaptons.

    For me, if Groggy is happy with this system then I am convinced. Mike Tobey seems to agree that this is a wothwhile setup too.

    The bonus is that the Diamond plates can also be used to flatten your other stones, whatever you choose. It is quite a versatile system I reckon.

    However, as others have said, to each his own, what suits one will not necessarily suit others.

    Cheers
    Pops

  12. #11
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    I always recommend a diamond plate over a flattening stone. The diamond plate in DMT Coarse(I have the XX coarse and you can feel the diamond points-really) will flatten waterstones and even oilstones. The diamond plate can be used for bevel setting and an edge where you want teeth. My favorite is the DUO in extra coarse/coarse, the largest they make ; lots of room to work before they load up with swarf. Regards,mt

  13. #12
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    Default

    Well I think I will bite the bullet and buy the Shaptons.

    I have since found out that Lie-Nielsen Australia sell the Shapton GlassStones. Is there anybody else that sells Shapton stones here? In particular, the Professional range?

    I'm happy to purchase them from the US if necessary and/or the price differential makes it worthwhile.

  14. #13
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  15. #14
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    Hey, I might add a few words of support for Shaptons. I would also like to add a few words of praise for Mike Tobey. Not only has Mike sent me a sharpened Berg (!) chisel (plus an unsharpened one - what were you thinking of Mike? ), but he has also sent me two Shaptons, an 8000 (to replace a faulty one - long story) and a 12000 (because he was so excited with the one he has). A great friend.

    Before the Shaptons I used Kings (800, 1200, 8000). The Kings work well but have a soft clay binder. They work up a good slurry, more easily, and are forgiving. Their 8000 gets as sharp as the Shapton 8000.

    The Shapton hones faster. The binder is a ceramic mix that is hard, and this produces a harder, less forgiving surface. But it offers more feedback and remains flatter longer.

    Both require water and can be messy to use. The Shaptons use as much water as the Kings, contrary to popular thinking. However the lower grit Shaptons do not need to live in water (as the Kings do) and the higher grit require less water to get going than Kings. Just a sprinkle and off you go.

    The Kings will use a nagura stone to work up a slurry. The Shaptons just use a little more water.

    The Kings are not suited to harder metals, such as A2 and D2. The Shaptons make short work of these.

    I flatten the Shaptons with a 10" DMT Duostone. The Extra Coarse is for the Shaptons, and the Coarse is used for grinding blades - all waterstones wear too quickly in the low grits.

    My range of Shaptons is 1000, 5000, 8000 and 12000. An alternative to the 1000 is the Bester 1000, which I hear is better (same ceramic binding).

    The question is whether the 12000 makes a difference? Well Mike, the 12000 is a fantastic stone. It lifts the edge to another level. It also hones quickly, and I suspect (just not tried) that one could go from 5000 to 12000.

    It must be said that there are many, many ways to sharpen a blade. I shall not even attempt to offer any of these since the original question was about King vs Shapton. Actually it was about Shapton glasstones. I have not used these. They are cheaper but you get less for your money.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  16. #15
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    Derek you just reminded me that I was wrong- I also have a 12K, I don't use it that often, Last time was on my LV LA block where I was going to be taking critical .0015-.002 slices. I was fussing with an infill type mini block that got nowhere.---forgot my manners- Regards,mt and thank you for the kind words.

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