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  1. #1
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    Arrow Diamond edge sharpening!!!

    DMT’s patented and award-winning products are known for their superior quality and versatility, are easy to use and allow for sharpening in a fraction of the time required by other methods. dmtsharp.com is popular with woodworkers, chefs and gardeners and in the kitchen because they are lightweight and portable.
    I use the diamond technology to sharpen knives,tools & gardening tools....what type of sharpening tools do you use? Please let me know.....

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  3. #2
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    Default Diamond shapening technology

    Firstly, welcome to the fount of knowledge Matrix.

    Looks like you've spruiked the DMT line!!
    I use Diamond files and stone but have not found them capable of producing a really fine edge. Stone stones and very fine abrasive papers are better.
    SDiamonds are goo for quick material removal and for touching up an edge while working, e.g. with lathe tools.

  4. #3
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    No matter what I use I haven't been able to achieve the razor sharp finish the everyone talks of. I keep trying but so far not really successful. I am hoping at the Brisbane WWS there may be a demonstration on how to sharpen. I currently us W&D and use the Veritas MK2 jig. Maybe I need some lessons
    Reality is no background music.
    Cheers John

  5. #4
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    Melbourne
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by munruben View Post
    No matter what I use I haven't been able to achieve the razor sharp finish the everyone talks of. I keep trying but so far not really successful. I am hoping at the Brisbane WWS there may be a demonstration on how to sharpen. I currently us W&D and use the Veritas MK2 jig. Maybe I need some lessons

    John, given that you have the veritas jig, you should be able to get a sharp edge consistently. If it helps, I will go through my approach of sharpening a blade...

    The key is that you have to get the 2 sides of the blade to meet to a point, that is all there is to it. To achieve that effectively the back of the blade MUST be absolutely flat (unless you are intending on putting back bevels...). When I first started off I was a little lazy with that step and as such my blades were never that sharp. Flattening the back of a blade can be hard work, this was especially so for me as nearly all my chisels and planes were bought second-hand from markets or ebay. I think this is where most people fail in terms of the sharpening sequence.

    The best way for flattening blades (IMHO) is to use a coarse diamond stone. It pays to invest in one of these. I use a DMT stone which is excellent. The initial investment is significant but they will last you a lifetime.

    The other benefit of the DMT stones is that they are completely flat and hence can be used to flatten any waterstones you may have (much quicker and easier than any other method I have used before).

    Once the back of the blade is flat then , I use a 1000 waterstone followed by a 4000 stone to polish the steel. I note this will probably only have to be done once for most people (unless you use handtools exclusively).

    Having a perfectly flat back you can then concentrate on forming a bevel. The Veritas excels here and in my opinion is the best most versatile jig on the market.

    Set the angle you want and start grinding on the coarse stone if you have a lot of steel to remove (ie usual chisel purchased from the markets..). You must keep going until you get a "wire" edge. This is in effect a little burr. I then continue through the 1000 waterstone and then the 4000 stone. The burr can be removed by rubbing the back side of the blade on one of the stones or a leather strop.

    Once again if you stop grinding before you get this wire edge you WILL NOT have a sharp blade; the wire edge signifies that you have formed a point.

    Some people will go further by sharpening to 8000 or 12000 grit but in my opinion that is seldom necessary for general use blades.

    If you follow these steps and use your veritas guide, you will get razor sharp blades. This can be done using scary sharp but its messy and costly in the long run. If you see yourself needing to sharpen tools in the future I would invest in one DMT coarse stone and at least a 1000 and 4000 waterstones. The DMT stones are expensive but you can get them for less here http://www.everten.com.au/category25_1.htm (no affiliation) or on US ebay (at times).

    Good luck with the sharpening, once you get a blade that can shave you will find your woodworking a lot more enjoyable.

    regards

    Marios
    You can never have enough planes, that is why Mr Stanley invented the 1/2s

  6. #5
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    Default

    Do we really need an edge that will take off arm hairs, for all but the finest of woodcraft?

    Some things to consider:

    How long will a fine edge last on Oz hardwoods? (effectiveness factor)
    How much time is needed to get the edge? (efficiency factor)
    How much do we have to spend on the gear? (cost-effectiveness)
    What are the alternatives and their factors? (eg. back bevel on a plane blade) ... including the cost and factors of a better plane blade.

    Beware fetishes ;-}
    Cheers, Ern

  7. #6
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    Default

    Thanks for the advice Marios much obliged. rsser I have taken your points on board.
    Reality is no background music.
    Cheers John

  8. #7
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    Default

    John, I think I might be about a week ahead of you on the tool sharpening learning curve. You may have seen my pleas for help under "idiot proof sharpening".

    Marios is talking a lot of sense. It seems absolutely essential that you get a perfectly flat back on the blade. Then you must get a perfect primary bevel (using the Veritas honing guide); if the wire hasn't yet formed then you haven't got the bevel right to the edge of the blade yet. Then, not mentioned by Marios, the backing board for the W&D must be perfectly flat and smooth (eg glass); I used melamine initially and the slight pattern imprinted through the finer grades of W&D and thus I could not get that really razor sharp target.

    Persevere and you, like me, will be amazed at how sharp an edge you can get. Its really scary sharp.

    I used to say things like Ern (rsser), and hacked through various projects for 40 years, not realising my blades were not actually sharp. Scary sharp edges cut much more easily and it really is a joy to use them. Its a real feel good buzz. And once the blades are properly sharp it only takes five or six strokes on each grade of W&D above 1000 grit to maintain that sharpness.

    This might sound like I am prosletising and I am. Sharp tools make woodworking much more enjoyable; you really feel good as you use them.

    Thank you to Marios and Derek and the many other members of this forum who helped me.

    Cheers

    Graeme

  9. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by munruben View Post
    No matter what I use I haven't been able to achieve the razor sharp finish the everyone talks of.... I currently us W&D and use the Veritas MK2 jig.
    It's funny this should come up, I was just doing a little workshop for a mate of mine on sharpening and I set about instructing him with my old glass lapping plate and some recently acquired W&D. I couldn't fathom why - having used the scary sharp method quite a few times - I just couldn't get a decent edge on a plane iron. Not sharp enough to glide effortlessly through pine, let alone shave cleanly or even consider hardwoods. Not nearly as sharp as I'm used to producing, but infinitely better than what my mate could do with his knowledge.

    I took the same plane iron to my stones (300 for flat grinding, 1200 for shaping the edge, 6000 for micro-bevel) and quickly produced an edge worthy of the work for which it was intended.... It's a bit embarrassing when you're trying to demonstrate

    I can't put my finger on it, but I feel the scary sharp process is some how flawed. The only thing that stood out to me was the fact that the very edge appeared to have the slightest rounding over on both the bevel and the back, perhaps this is a consequence of the ability to deform the abrasive surface during sharpening? I maintain the flatness of my stones relegiously and the rounding over obviously doesn't occur when using them.

    I don't think I'll ever go back to scary sharp, and my advice to someone having poor success with this would be to keep the MKII, ditch the W&D and invest in a couple of water stones. Kings have worked well for me and I do most of my sharpening free-hand now.
    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    - Douglas Adams

  10. #9
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    Default

    I would agree. I have tried scary sharp a few times and got quite good results but not a patch on the waterstones. From my perspective, you have the abrasive backing, then the contact glue which must result in some degree of deformation of the paper immediately surrounding the blade. So, if you were to view the edge under a microscope you would see some degree of rounding. I would assume the waterstones do not have this level of deformation, and therefore result in a cleaner edge.

    Cheers,

    Tom





    Quote Originally Posted by kman-oz View Post
    It's funny this should come up, I was just doing a little workshop for a mate of mine on sharpening and I set about instructing him with my old glass lapping plate and some recently acquired W&D. I couldn't fathom why - having used the scary sharp method quite a few times - I just couldn't get a decent edge on a plane iron. Not sharp enough to glide effortlessly through pine, let alone shave cleanly or even consider hardwoods. Not nearly as sharp as I'm used to producing, but infinitely better than what my mate could do with his knowledge.

    I took the same plane iron to my stones (300 for flat grinding, 1200 for shaping the edge, 6000 for micro-bevel) and quickly produced an edge worthy of the work for which it was intended.... It's a bit embarrassing when you're trying to demonstrate

    I can't put my finger on it, but I feel the scary sharp process is some how flawed. The only thing that stood out to me was the fact that the very edge appeared to have the slightest rounding over on both the bevel and the back, perhaps this is a consequence of the ability to deform the abrasive surface during sharpening? I maintain the flatness of my stones relegiously and the rounding over obviously doesn't occur when using them.

    I don't think I'll ever go back to scary sharp, and my advice to someone having poor success with this would be to keep the MKII, ditch the W&D and invest in a couple of water stones. Kings have worked well for me and I do most of my sharpening free-hand now.

  11. #10
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    Default

    Some interesting comments guys.

    Some degree of rounding is probably acceptable... Tormek have argued for years that it stabilises/strengthens the edge. This is afterall what happens when one uses the honing wheel on the Tormek and this is what happens when you use a leather strop. There maybe some merit to this.

    Maybe having a super-fine point means that this has a greater chance of snapping off on impact with the wood (1/xxxth of a millimitre!) and producing a rough edge. Similarly maybe an accurately created slightly rounder edge may last for longer as it maybe stronger and may resist breakge. I dont know whether this is right, and I am not sure if anyone has formally tested this.

    I have noticed that although the chisel blades straight off the stones do feel sharper and they seem to catch on the wood really agressively; I have not noticed that blades I have stropped cut any worse OR that the edge lasts for a shorter period. This could be that there is a level of sharpness beyond which there is little benefit in practical terms.

    One other thing, I think that the benchmark of the ability to shave hair to gauge sharpness of a tool is probably a poor one. A blade can shave hair yet give an ordinary finish on timber... I think the next component of sharpness is that the edge should be smooth it should not be rough if you dare touch it. I used to test this when I started sharpening, now I have become wiser as the edge cuts before I can feel it...

    I would be interested to hear what others think about this. Should our benchmark for a sharp edge become a smooth edge that can shave hair???

    What does everyone think?

    regards

    Marios
    You can never have enough planes, that is why Mr Stanley invented the 1/2s

  12. #11
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    Question What is sharp?

    This is an interesting thread. What is the definition of a sharp tool? How do you qualify what is sharp.....besides the fact that your finger is laying on the workshop floor!

    I have played with scary sharp and have recently moved to a wetstone grinder and have often thought of a standard to measure sharpness against. Does anyone have an idea?

    GS
    Whale oil beef hooked!

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by greg.smith View Post
    This is an interesting thread. What is the definition of a sharp tool? How do you qualify what is sharp.....besides the fact that your finger is laying on the workshop floor!
    GS
    I like the definition in this thread.

    Cheers
    Mike

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by m2c1Iw View Post
    I like the definition in this thread.

    Cheers
    Mike

    Me too. I think we should be careful that we do not lose the thread of this thread.

    After 40 years of very poor freehand sharpening using wetstones and a power grinder, I, with the help of many contributors, discovered scary sharp and have sharpened several chisels with it. The results are infinitely better than anything I had previously achieved.

    My learning curve has been flat for 40 years - I did not even realise how bad my results were - but it bent sharply upward in April 2008. I am now getting the sharpest blades I have ever got.

    Now it is possible that there is some flexing in the scary sharp abrasive sheets and that this flexibility may detract marginally from the ideal results, but, so what. When I am truly convinced that I am achieving optimal results via scary sharp then I may try wetstones again.

    This is all part of the learning process, and ultimately we are all at various stages of the journymans journey.

    Cheers

    Graeme

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by routermaniac View Post
    Some degree of rounding is probably acceptable... Tormek have argued for years that it stabilises/strengthens the edge. This is afterall what happens when one uses the honing wheel on the Tormek and this is what happens when you use a leather strop. There maybe some merit to this.

    Maybe having a super-fine point means that this has a greater chance of snapping off on impact with the wood (1/xxxth of a millimitre!) and producing a rough edge. Similarly maybe an accurately created slightly rounder edge may last for longer as it maybe stronger and may resist breakge. I dont know whether this is right, and I am not sure if anyone has formally tested this.
    I believe you're making valid points, but there are a couple of gotcha' here. The first is that any rounding of the edge that isn't controllable is a bad thing. Call this rounding a micro-bevel if you will, but if you can't strictly control the micro-bevel then there might be a lot of wasted effort.

    Take this example: A fresh new piece of 240 grit W&D on glass used to grind a new edge on a plane blade with the aid of a honing guide. This will produce visible scratches and a heavy burr on the edge, but more importantly after 20-30 strokes you may find that you've warn the centre of the W&D more than the ends. You may not notice that the very edge has been rounded slightly by this process, but I'm certain that the surface grinding the bevel (i.e., the middle of the W&D) will end up a lot smoother that the surface which is rounding over the edge (where the grits haven't been worn off as much and stand higher). The result is an edge which might in fact be less smooth that the bevel. Move up a grit and the same problem occurs again.

    The uncontrolled 'micro-bevel' that results from this may even be at a higher angle that the bed of your plane, meaning the bevel is what's touching the surface of the timber first rather than the edge. Obviously this requires a hell of a lot of work to cut at all.

    By the time you get down to 1200+ grit abrasive paper this is no longer a big problem because the grits don't exactly stand up anyway. On the other hand, the paper and adhesive layer holding your abrasive down are now considerably thicker than the abrasive. Regardless of the formation of the edge up to this point there will be deformation of the surface as you hone. Again, the 'micro-bevel' that forms is largely out of you hands and might be at an angle higher than your plane bed.

    I don't have the gear to measure or verify any of this, but two problems I found with scary sharp correlate to these two circumstances. 1) If I use my water stone techniques on W&D/glass I end up with an edge that isn't smooth, presumably because I have a 240 grit 'micro-bevel' remaining after the bevel has been honed. 2) I found it impossible to remove burrs as I expected to during honing, I surmised that this is a result of never quite getting the back as flat I'd like to because of abrasive deformation during flattening.

    When I work with water stones neither of these problems seem to occur, and so I get predictable results every time.

    If you're able to get the same result with scary sharp, power to you, because you obviously know something I don't.

    Regarding the second point about a perfect edge be potentially less durable, consider this, how much extra work is required to cut a .005" shaving with a 70 degree bed on your plane? In my experience, considerably more than using a 45 degree bed angle, and this is precisely what you get by introducing a rounded edge on the back of a plane blade. The presented edge will be at a higher angle which requires considerably more work to cut, dissipating more heat into the blade and requiring higher pressure at the edge. I grant you that this may not wear the edge faster, but it sure makes for sweatier work It's also reasonable that providing you only flatten the blade once, subsequent sharpening will take the edge back into the flat section again eventually.

    That said, I don't bother to strive for the ultimate edge on anything but a smoothing plane or paring chisel for work with Aussie hardwoods because it lasts all of 2 seconds otherwise. Even so, I'd still prefer to but a higher angle micro-bevel on my tools in a predictable way than to let it to the physics of W&D abrasive paper to work the magic for me.

    I'm really not trying to argue points here, just thinking out loud. Feel free to shoot me down at any time.

    Dave.
    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    - Douglas Adams

  16. #15
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    Dave I agree with a lot of your comments,

    I dont use scary sharp for a number of reasons, one being that the results are nowhere near as reproducible as those obtained by stones and another being that I dont like throwing money in the rubbish bin in the form of wet and dry paper. If you have a lot of handtools you can spend the cost of a waterstone on sharpening over a couple of sessions. In my eyes that is wasteful. On the other hand if you only own two chisels and they need to be sharpened rarely it would be cost effective to use scary sharp. I now touch up my tools regularly because it drives me crazy having to use a blunt tool...


    As I mentioned earlier I think it is vital that the edge is formed with precision. I think even if you use some sort of strop (either a tormek wheel or a leather strop, etc), if the blade approach is exact and reproducible results will be good. I think if this cant be guaranteed the edge will not be optimised.

    What is becoming more and more obvious to me the more I sharpen my tools is the absolute basics. If you dont flatten the back of the blade on a chisel your chisel and you dont grind till you get a wire edge you just wont get a sharp tool. For plane blades one can use a backbevel to minimise the need to flatten the back of the blade. I have a few blades like this but I must admit I prefer the back of the blades to be flat.


    Another thing we must not forget is the quality of the steel that we are sharpening. I started with a crappy set of Chinese chisels and these were near impossible to get sharp as the point after sharpening would snap off as soon as it touched the timber. Now I know better... most of my tools are vintage and made from good steel. As such they hold an edge well and I am much happier .

    Marios
    You can never have enough planes, that is why Mr Stanley invented the 1/2s

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