malaysian ply ?

[honkongphoie]

i'm getting my list of wood together for the build of my Yellowtail, i've been to our only timber yard (as all the boat yards recommend them for marine ply) but they only sell Malaysian stuff, the surface veneers look nice (no idea what it is) although a little thin and looking around the edges of the sheets they have you can see voids

i have done a search but not come up with any thing conclusive

also what's you opinions on using American white oak for the keel and rubbing strips, i'll be using teak for the decking and want a nice contrast of light and dark woods

thanks in advance Richard

[PAR]

Be careful with the Malaysian stuff. Quality control, manufacturing methods, species selection, etc. are not especially well regulated in this area of the world. You could get some real pretty stuff with a BS1088 stamp on it that isn't fit for use as an interior door skin.

Quality marine plywood will have very few to no voids along the edges, will use WBP adhesives and incorporate species with at least fair natural rot resistance.

American white oak is quite good for keels (other structural elements too) and rub strips. If you have the chance, live oak (USA) is better yet, as it's not as prone to checking, has better rot resistance and is denser.

[Daddles]

Just as traditional boat building relied on what was available locally, modern boat builders need to look locally first. This whole timber thing is a nightmare - different names in different places, different timbers masquerading under the same name elsewhere and transport is a big part of the cost. The trick is to search out experience builders near home and talk to them.

Remember, many traditional boat timbers owed their success to their rot resistance - this isn't anywhere near the problem it used to be if you encapsulate the timber in epoxy ie, slather the expensive sticky stuff all over it and you can get away with using darned near anything ... up to a point

On the plywood - good marine plywood is expensive. If you buy cheap stuff, there's usually a good reason why it's cheap. Having said that, gaboon is bloody expensive here and sometimes the quality is great, sometimes it's rubbish (the last gaboon I bought was poorer quality than pacific maple at a quarter of the price, but that was years ago). Again, you need to talk to others doing it locally.

In fact, support from your peers can be so valuable, even if it's just someone to sob to when you discover your latest stuff up, that I'd suggest you go hunting for other wooden boat builders before doing anything else. They're an elusive mob for some reason

As far as getting specific advice from me on timber goes - mate, I'm struggling to get my head around MY local supplies, let alone anyone elses. Personally though, I'd be wary of anything out of Malaysia based on my gaboon experiences - it can be good but it can be horrid as well.

Richard

[b.o.a.t.]

As far as getting specific advice from me on timber goes - mate, I'm struggling to get my head around MY local supplies, let alone anyone elses. Personally though, I'd be wary of anything out of Malaysia based on my gaboon experiences - it can be good but it can be horrid as well.
Richard

Some of the Malaysian stuff is reliably good. Haven't had a dud sheet from Flat Duck in 8 years or so. MIK would probably know what brand they get in.

Speculation : Provided the ply were well encapsulated, I would think that lapstrake construction would largely compensate for core imperfections : the boat is made up of small pieces reinforced frequently by the double-thickness laps. & etc. Unlike say, a sharpie skiff with big unsupported panels to flex & break.

cheers
AJ

[honkongphoie]

Some of the Malaysian stuff is reliably good. Haven't had a dud sheet from Flat Duck in 8 years or so. MIK would probably know what brand they get in.

Speculation : Provided the ply were well encapsulated, I would think that lapstrake construction would largely compensate for core imperfections : the boat is made up of small pieces reinforced frequently by the double-thickness laps. & etc. Unlike say, a sharpie skiff with big unsupported panels to flex & break.

cheers
AJ

would it be feasible/ok to inject the voids with epoxy once the planks are cut, the whole boat will be fully encapsulated in epoxy when finished.

on my 10' dinghy i built it used 6mm WPB ply and that had a few voids so i got a very strong light and at night shone it on the ply from one side and looked from the other and you could see the voids through the ply, i marked them and the following day drilled two small holes in each void and injected them with epoxy, i know most the epoxy was probably soaked up by the ply but at least the voids were encapsulated too (and gave me peace of mind that i had done something to them).

Daddles

i know of only one other boat builder over here, but he builds for the rich and famous so cost of timber and materials are irrelevant to him, if he needs one sheet of good quality marine ply he orders one sheet of ply from the UK and the shipping cost gets passed on to his client
i know he uses American white oak for construction as that is available of the shelf at the local saw mill

because i know him he's getting me my epoxy for cost price

[Boatmik]

Howdy HKP,

The Malaysian ply that DF get has very few voids. If you are getting lots of visible voids around the edges of the sheets I would probably recommend skipping it unless you really cannot find something much better.

Best wishes
Michael

[Theodor]

Back when I was in the boiler construction/maintenance business, I visited a number of Malaysian plywood factories (they use steam to dry the sheets). From what I saw, I think you can basically say that the outside veneer is as good as the ply is going to be. All the middle layers were constructed like a jigsaw piece i.e. from pieces of veneers which had been trimmed off other sheets, or ripped sections, etc.

Obviously this is fine if you're selling plywood for furniture construction or some other purpose where the centre veneers aren't required for anything but strength and width. However, if you're looking for ply which meets quality standards, I would be extremely careful about what you buy from Malaysia - after 2 years of working in Malaysia, I learnt you need to scrutinise what quality standards were being used. In mu opinion, few Malaysian standards would come close to Aust standards.

So choose your Malaysian ply carefully, especially if the internal layers are going to be exposed. You may certainly find some good cheap stuff, and if you 'poxy it well, you should be fine*.

Mark

* Disclaimer: Read above advice on treating and preparing it for boat building.

[Daddles]

i know of only one other boat builder over here, but he builds for the rich and famous so cost of timber and materials are irrelevant to him, if he needs one sheet of good quality marine ply he orders one sheet of ply from the UK and the shipping cost gets passed on to his client
i know he uses American white oak for construction as that is available of the shelf at the local saw mill

because i know him he's getting me my epoxy for cost price

You'd be surprised what boat builders are hiding out there. Like specific advice which you usually only get after making the mistake, you usually only find other builders after you launch your boat

That builder sounds like a good resource. As you've already found out, white oak is available. If he's ordering stuff, he may be willing to order extra for you - by sharing the transport costs, you can reduce them (the thing that usually makes timber expensive). One thing's for sure, the better the materials that go into your boat, the better the boat will be. You'll probably find him a wealth of information too - offer to work with him 'just for the experience', or save your questions for when he's got work you can help him with

Having a tame 'expert' on hand is a tremendous advantage and even the most generous forum poster can't replace the 'in person'touch.

Richard

[PAR]

You can repair voids if they manage to get to the edge, by injecting thickened epoxy into them. This of course raises the question, how many voids are internal, but don't reach an edge where you can see it. There's no way to repair these.

With the money you're asked to spend on marine grade materials, it should be nothing less then top shelf. I'm fortunate to live about 30 miles from a plywood manufacture. I'll be picking up 2 dozen sheets of plywood this week, so shipping costs are moot for me, but most aren't as lucky.

Boat builders are a cerebral bunch. They ponder softly, the latest problems of the current project and you just don't hear much about them. This might be that they're all drunk with scheduling concerns, back ordered materials and screwed up sheer clamps, so haven't the time to appear in public.

When I first started up my own shop, I rented an old abandoned warehouse and started building a 41' Spray replica in traditional fashion and was in view of a major road. Every day people would stop by and ask if I was building a boat. At first this was cute and I complied, answering questions. After a year of this and a few newspaper articles about the "old school boat builder", my answers became somewhat different. "So, your building a sailboat?" . . . "No, it's part of a crime scene and I'm not allowed to remove it from the property." . . . or . . . "So, your building a sailboat?" . . . "No., but I've discovered Noah's arc, quick someone call the Pope." . . .

All this attention drove me nuts, mostly because of the interruptions, so I moved my operations out into the woods. I've had several locations since that time, all well away from watchful eyes. I still get attention, like the newspaper article that printed when a 48' ketch emerged from those "woods", requiring stopped traffic and raised power lines. Now that's worth talking about. Seeing a big boat, literally being dragged by back hoe, on a set of skids, though the trees, up to the edge of the road, so a marine transport and crane can get at it and haul it to the coast. We had traffic backed up for miles, but lots of honking horns with a thumbs up, when they finally did get to see what was holding things up.

I think boat builders are mostly pretty humble beasts (depending on how much beer as been involved that day), preferring to let their work stand for itself. I've noticed many real craftsmen are like this. Furniture makers, cabinet builders, etc. I know a guy that is a very fine piano player. He plays at my church every so often. He's also a piano builder, which you wouldn't know without a specific question about his interests. He builds beautiful works of musical art, but considers it little more then a hobby, even though he's likely one of the best in the area. I imagine many boat builders fall into the same rut.