downlights

[Cassandra]

We are putting downlights into cupboards and ceiling of our new kitchen. Anyone out there have any advice as to which ones to install? Which ones last longer? Is it a question of the more you pay the better the light?
Thanks
Cass

[ozwinner]

Hi
I bought a pack of 4 low voltage downlights from Bunnies to put in a bedroom and installed them some time ago, 12 months tops.
Now I have to get up in the roof and replace all the tranfomers, I just bought 2, now the other 2 have gone.
I think they are designed to bugger up, so you spend more on replacements.
I dont think I will get low voltage again.
The price you pay for low voltage you can get some nice 240V stuff, and the globes are cheaper for 240V.
Plus they use the same amout of current to run, so you dont save anything.

Cheers, Allan

[journeyman Mick]

If mounting into the cupboards: there are lights available which are about 30mm thick, they can be mounted into the bottom of your overhead cabinets if you fit a false bottom and router out reccesses. Personally I prefer fluros for work areas like kitchens and laundries. You can fit a pelmet to the bottom of your overheads and mount the fluoros behind it. This will give you a very even spread of light on your benchtops. Even if you fit downlights with wide angle reflectors you will get a pretty uneven distribution of light. Just my .02 worth.

Mick

[wombat47]

Perhaps it boils down to you get what you pay for but my experience with down-lights was not good. We installed them in a timber ceiling - looked great but very prone to over heating - which would cause the glass part of the light bulb to detach itself from the metal holding bit and required a lot of patience and a pair of pliers to remove the metal bit from the holder.

We ended up buying nice round wooden cutting boards with routed edges, large enough to cover the downlight holes, and used them as "ceiling roses" for spotlights.

If you have to have downlights, make sure that

1. there is enough room around the bulb to actually take hold of it,

2. you don't have to buy your bulbs at a specialist lighting shop (or your specialist lighting shop is just around the corner and is open 24/7).

As much as I hate fluro lights, I think they would be much better under the cupboards. You could always fit a light diffuser (be easier to clean too).

[GeoffS]

Cassandra
Can't resist commenting on this one -

Downlights
- the most inefficient form of lighting currently obtainable. The lamps are inefficient (i.e light output for the electricity used) and the lighting patterns formed never seem to be where they are wanted.
- the thought of cheap and nasty transformers lying around in the ceiling makes any electrical worker's blood run cold. Note ozwinner's comments.
- the lamps are expensive.
- a further fire risk comes from the use of low voltage, therefore high currents. Any loose connections are far more dangerous.
- the lamps run very hot and in turn are close to the ceiling or in the ceiling, more fire risk.
- there are other disadvantages which I can't think of at the moment!

I'd go for candles for both efficiency and safety.

Cheers

[SteveI]

Cassandra

Like the others - also found experience with halogen downlights a bit problamatic - they are great for accent and give an intense light, but the bulbs don't last as long as you might like. (& at $5 a pop it adds up)

Some of the newer transformers give better life because they run at 11.5 volts, greatly increasing bulb life (that .5 volt does make a difference).

We found in hot weather the transformers would switch-off with the heat overload cutoff and take 15 minutes to cool down and come back on..... again the newer more expensive models are more stable.

The heat off the halogens also adds to discomfort in summer

I would go for the bigger 240 volt downlights that have a reflective tube and use the energy saving bulbs - cooler and last longer - the downside is they take a while to come to full brightness.

Pity because I do find the light of the halogens better - especially with the eyesight not as good as it used to be.

[bitingmidge]

Halogen has it's place! The newest incarnation of the Home of the Biting Midge has ONLY 12v downlights except for fluoro's in my workshop, and a couple of IR bathroom heaters. We have 80 of the suckers including exterior lighting..

I never thought I'd see the day......

I took advice from a couple of electrical engineers who specialise in residential work. A couple, because I didn't believe the first one so got a second opinion.....

Don't buy the cheapest fittings you can find. Good ones are designed to ventilate and dissipate heat. Use only one transformer per light fitting, and put dimmers on every circuit. If you drop back the power to the lights by about 15-20% you will find you have a much softer light, and apparently the darned things run 100% more efficiently.

I don't pretend to understand the theory, but a 12v system is also more efficient electrically, taking into account the transformer losses, apparently consuming about 20% of the power of the same output incandescent. (I would appreciate some learned help on this one!)

The "uneven" light referred to from downlights can easily be overcome by using more of them if necessary, but in a kitchen you really don't need to light any more than the bench tops and you'll easily have enough to see everywhere else. We have one over each side of the sink, another above a large counter space and four built in to the range hood. (Total seven, but the range hood ones are rarely all on at one time, and don't dim).

As per Mick's advice, there are a number of fittings designed specifically for bulkheads and which need as little as 35mm clearance. You will need somewhere to place the transformer, and make sure that you do install them in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations. Heat build-up will kill the globes!

We haven't experienced any problems with transformers, globes, overloading etc, but didnt' take any shortcuts in installing either.

Glad to add to your confusion!

Cheers,

P

[Theva]

Cassendra,

I am with bitingmidge on this one.

Advice on 12V globes. The best in MHO is OSRAM.

Top of the range globe alone costs app $17.00 trade price.

details- 50 or 35W, 60deg beam angle, IRC type 50mm dichroic, part no: 48870VWFL or 48865VWFL.

Lasts for years. Their matching electronic transformers (HTM range) works fine up to 50 deg.

Mounting under cupborad - 20w bi pin lamps with housings.

Hope this is of some use.


Regards,

Theva

[GCP310]

Get in contact with a cabinet supply company, they will certainly have a product to suit your needs. off the top of my head, try Hafele, they have a whole range that is designed to be routered into 16mm melamine board.

Goodluck

[MF3106]

Just my two bobs worth.

We had good quality low voltage lights fitted in the kitchen about 5 years ago - total of 15 in all. We had an electician supply and fit units of good quality - and have only had two globe losses and one transformer replacement.

Also they now apparently have electoronic transformers - very small, and low heat output.

Hop this helps

[glenn k]

My electrician told me not to put insulation between the rafters in a cathedral ceiling as it would cause the transformers to overheat. My comment was why insulate at all then. We decided to insulate and put 12v spot lights mounted on the transformer. He also told us not to put dimmers on 12v lights as the globs blow quicker. It didn’t make sense to me at the time and still doesn’t now, I may add dimmers one day if only to reduce power consumption.

[Cassandra]

GOLLY GOSH!
Thanks so much for all the advice. While I prefer those fluro lights that have the large difusers over them (such good lighting) I am going with the downlights because of style. It is a 50 sq.m. kitchen so I will use 15 downlights. Thanks all for your help on this. I'll let you know how it looks. If I can figure out how to post a photo, when all is done I will do so.
Cass

[ChrisH]

Cass

15 lights at 50 watts each is 750 watts. That is three quarters as much power, and heat, as a single bar radiator. that is a LOT of heat to dissipate. It is also a real lot of wasted energy.

I don't wish to be rude but that is really a silly choice.

If you imagine that twenty years ago before we had so many options, a 100 watt light globe was considered "bright" for any room in a house, you are now talking about seven times the power consumption. The reason is that these little halogen spots light up a very small area, as they have such a narrow beam. So you need lots of them to light up a room. They are good for lighting one small thing, like over a stove. Think about why they are called a SPOT light. They are trendy becaue they give a stark white light but it is not a smart choice. If you want to illuminate a long thin area like a kitchen work area, then use a long thin light. (eg a fluoro). Fluoros use about a fifth the power for the same light, and don't have the high waste heat generation. You could still have great looking lights, by recessing the light into the base of the cupboard, so all you see is a glass panel set into the base of the overhead cupboards, perhaps with a stainless steel surround. A fluoro doesn't have to look cheap and dorky. You can get fluoros in different shades of light, commonly "cool white" and "warm white" depending on if you prefer a stark white light or a mellower, more yellow light.

Spots in a ceiling are even worse in a ceiling than in the base of a cupboard, as every light fitting needs insulation removed from over and around it so it doesn't cook or cause a fire. So your heating/airconditioning system has to work harder to cope, as the spots are effectively a bunch of holes punched in your ceiling. So with downlights you lose two ways, by their own inefficiency and by the need to ruin the insulation in your ceiling.

You will hear the halogen lights called "high efficiency" which is true in a sense - a halo globe does produce a little more light for the same energy than an ordinary incandescent globe, though not much. Fluoros are the one that use 20% the power of a standard globe, not halogens. Fluoros use much less power than halogens for the same light, and spread it around more evenly if used in an appropriate fitting.

I live in a solar powered house so I have to watch my power consumption, all my lights are compact fluoros except one - the bedside light is a 15w standard globe, as the smallest compact fluoro (5w) is still too bright!

Best wishes
Chris.

[Theva]

Cassandra,

Well, it is your choice.


Few pointers on ceiling mounted downlights:

1) as per previous posts, always use a dimmer. Use electronic transformers compatible with the dimmer (leading edge / trailing edge). Run them on full power once in a while (say monthly) for longer globe life.

2) typical good quality fitting costs $10 to 15 without transformer/globe. Centre tilt type is better than fixed type for heat dissipation because of the small gap around the globes.

3) Keep the transformer away from the fitting (min 200mm), remove insulation around the fitting as per manufacturers instruction. Else, if there is a fire by any chance, there will be insurance issues.

4) For cupboards - undershelf mounted lights (eg: Crompton’s DL 888 range). They are 25mm deep, 80mm dia, can be recessed, some comes with a switch.


Hope this is of some use.

Regards,

Theva

[jackiew]

If you're set on the downlights have you thought about how the lights are going to be switched?

will you need all 15 of them on at the same time always, if you aren't working in the kitchen but just need to find your way to the fridge for a beer you might just want to be able to turn on a couple of lights.

And as someone who has lived in a couple of places where I've had to grope across the room in the dark to a light switch because it was located near the other entrance to the room think about two way switching ... well worth any extra expense.