EPOXY risks

[floatingsheep]

Hello everybody,

I am planning to build one of Michael's wonderful boats (oz PDR or GIS). A main obstacles of actually doing it is the use of epoxy, which seems to be an obligation.

I am aware of all the benefits this material has. But I do worry about using the stuff because it is so toxic when applied. I also wonder, what happens to the coating when the boat's life is over (is epoxy-coated wood toxic waste?)?

Is there any alternative to epoxy, even if that means more care and maybe a shorter life-span of the boat? Is there a modern material that is equally preserving while stability might be achieved with stainless screws or water resist wood-glue?

Looking forward to your answers (this is my first post...!)

Fabian

[Boatmik]

Howdy Fabian,

There is a risk with many boatbuilding materials. The trick is to understand the real risks and relative risks.

ALLERGEN - NOT PARTICULARLY TOXIC

For example, epoxy is generally classified as an allergen in normal use. It provokes an allergic reaction in some people. This is the most important single reason for all the safety precautions ... to prevent people (only a small proportion) from building up a serious allergy because of careless exposure.

The allergic reaction can be very terrible. If I come in contact with horse hair, my eyes will swell and blister, my airways will close up and I will get a painful rash all over my body. A couple of days later a lot of the affected areas will peel and become raw. This is an allergic reaction and is the worst a sensible user can experience from epoxy if they have won that particular genetic lottery.

Be clear .. .as dramatic as it is, it is not a toxic reaction. Like all allergies it starts off small and builds over continued exposure. My horse allergy was courtesy of the school immunisation program in the mid '60s.

If you do something stupid with epoxy you may experience its mild toxic affects - or do something more stupid and there are more serious repercussions. The toxic risks are significantly less than solvent based materials such as paints (excepting the water based ones now available), polyester resin etc. Quality epoxy contains little or no solvents - the most likely toxic affect from sensible use is headache from doing large areas with inadequate ventilation. I wear a carbon mask in that situation, but generally my scale of boatbuilding now means that fresh air is enough.

The main areas of concern are to have fresh air and to prevent the epoxy from getting on your skin as far as possible. The latter is reduced by using disposable equipment that also minimises the amount of solvents that are released into the atmosphere from cleaning up.

The amount of disposable equipment required to build the boat is quite small if you follow my plans.

Also solvents can act to transport resin components through your skin. This can enhance the allergic build up, but in terms of toxic effects in this case ... the most serious will from the solvents rather than the 'pox.

We clean up skin with vinegar. Never use solvents for cleaning your skin.

Don't spray epoxy - there are manual methods that have been developed using rollers, squeegees and brushes.

The dust from sanding cured epoxy is inert so presents very little health risk .. .but if you are set up to minimise wood dust (dust extracted tools connected up to a second hand vacuum cleaner or some more elaborate apparatus) it will deal with the epoxy dust as well. Wood dust is a much more serious proposition for health than epoxy dust by several orders of magnitude. Fibreglass dust is probably equal to the worst of the wood dusts.

So the order of concern should be
Solvents
Wood dust and fibreglass dust and many paint dusts
Epoxy.

The interesting thing is if you take care of the first two then you have done most of the work for the last one.

I don't have any proof apart from observation, but in the case of most sensitisation it has been because of poor care and handling of the epoxy. The most common repeating pattern in my experience is it is an older man building a large boat (more surface area and a longer process) in cold conditions so he will seal up the room and run a heater so he can keep working. But sometimes it is just genetic bad luck.

DISPOSAL
Epoxy timber boats are highly durable and require very little maintenance, Particularly in the small sizes like the Eureka and dinghies.

The boat has to be coated with something and that will degrade in a different way from the wood.

It seems likely that a timber epoxy boat in smaller sizes has an indefinite life - certainly in the range of 12 to 20 years or more. Most other small boat building methods will have a much shorter life because they don't deal with the fundamental problem of water and air getting into the wood.

There is the chance of catastrophic accident of course.

For the Eureka, it will probably need a light sand and a new coat of varnish or paint every 5 to 7 years if the initial job was done well. There are boats that have not needed any maintenance for 14 years or more. Before epoxy, with non gap filling glues and the inability to prevent water entering the structure both the maintenance cycle and the lifetime was significantly less with most developing leaks in the first few years and the boat becoming progressively more trouble and labour intensive after that point. Properly built epoxy boats almost never do.

This low maintenance cycle for smaller timber/epoxy boats probably makes them better for the environment and better for the user than many other forms of boatbuilding. Less disposable stuff used, less solvent, less dust, less junk all round.

As far as disposal. No recycling is really possible - I doubt it is possible for many boats of any construction. If you are concerned you can leave the boat out in the sun for a few years and the epoxy will be broken down by the UV into a harmless dust and you can do what you want with the wooden bits. I suppose it would be possible to sand the epoxy off the timber and then dispose of the timber. I doubt anyone will bother - the amount of materials bound up in the boats I design is very trivial, particularly when the long life enters the equation.

But I think for the lifecycle use ... an epoxy timber boat will scrub up quite well in comparison with most other elaborate artifacts.

[PAR]

Michael has presented a fairly good assessment of epoxy and it's interaction with humans.

In a nut shell, don't eat it the cured or uncured goo, in spite of how good it might be on toast. It is fairly inert and will likely pass right through you if you do, but if you're still of breeding age and aren't interested in three headed babies, then don't swallow.

You want to keep it out of your eyes. Sanded epoxy dust is quite abrasive and will scratch lenses, which is painful and possibly sight damaging. In short avoid using it as eye make up.

If you get it on your skin, wipe it off with regular vinegar or denatured alcohol. Both of these things will cut it down, stop the chemical reaction and be kind to your skin. In fact any liquid that is especially acidic will cut it and stop the reaction. I used orange juice (I was drinking some at the time) when I leaned on a fresh batch of epoxy. It worked surprisingly well. Acetone will also cut it very well, but it will leach right through your skin and we're back to the three headed baby thing again, so only use harsh solvents on tools.

Cured dust can cause lung problems if you inhale a bunch of it over a long period. So don't snort the stuff. I'm fairly sure you can't get a buzz from it (I've tried) so don't bother.

Of course getting it in your hair, using your bald spot as a squeegee on over head work (one of my favorite techniques), requires you rinse it out with vinegar or denatured alcohol. If it cures, you have little choice but to cut it out, so don't wait too long.

In spite of the fun I poke at it's use, I've been working with the goo for several decades. I was using it before it was "popular" to use epoxy. I have to admit I've developed a craving for it, which I fight daily, as it'll make my hemorrhoids stick together, but I'm strong willed.

The best way of working with epoxy is develop a "clean routine" and a set of procedures for each and every occasion you use epoxy. It's easy once you've generated "muscle memory" in this regard, so force yourself to work neat and clean at first, which will develop this memory.

Most folks use an "epoxy area" which is where they keep all the goo, fillers, solvents, brushes, paper towels, etc. Pump, pour, mix, add fillers, find gloves and other epoxy supplies in this area. Keep it clean and preferably covered. Mine is in an out of the way corner of the shop and covered with a plexi glass lid. I also have a rolling tool cart that I use to bring mixed goo to the work. I have a large flat bottomed, plastic tub that I mix in that fits in the top of the cart. I can spread out mixed epoxy in the tub (so it doesn't build up heat) and wheel it to the work.

Before doing any epoxy work, perform a "dry run". I'm religious about this tidbit. During the dry run (assembly without the epoxy) you find where you need tools placed, which tools you'll need, arrange for clamps, drop cloths, tool protection, etc. It's amazing how much you'll need to find when you don't do this seemly simple step. Looking for and finding a cordless drill, chucking up a driver bit then taking it to the work area, will get wet epoxy all over everything, so take this simple extra step and save yourself some work trying to clean up globs of goo off your drill bit box or door knobs.

Epoxy, as Michael mentions, is fairly benign compared to many of the things boat builder expose themselves to. Work clean, do a dry run, don't eat it or rub it into body cavities and you'll be fine. It's benefits are a tremendous asset to the durability of a wooden boat. Though occasionaly, when the other half isn't home I'll cook up a batch, spread it on some French bread with a touch of jam for color, mmmmmmmm . . .

[Boatmik]

Fantastic elaboration of some of the details to keep people safe and happy!

MIK

[floatingsheep]

Thank you very much for your immediate and detailed responses! I understand that the risks of working with epoxy can be minimized (or even enjoyed).

But would still be interested if anyone can report on positive experiences with preservation-materials other than epoxy.

Fabian

[PAR]

Preservation is a difficult word to incorporate with wooden structures. It implies that the wood is damaged and needs some restoration, then preventive measures to prevent future issues.

Traditional preservatives do work, but all have a limited degree of effectiveness, unless you make the wood especially toxic. Tar and heavy copper based preservatives do just this, make the wood so toxic, nothing wants to eat it or live on it. Unfortunately this includes people and why most of these type products are no longer used. Borax and glycol are also used, both somewhat effective. Glycol can cause bonding problems with some adhesives and both can cause painting issues.

Steaming is another traditional method. Steamed ribs rarely rot. This is because the steaming process kills the spores, fungi and other little beasties that might be living in or on the wood.

Salt is another method, but it has limited uses and has to be renewed occasionally.

All the traditional or natural methods permit the wood to "breath" and change dimensions with moisture content. This invites the little beasties to come back and find a home in the pores of the wood eventually.

This is why epoxy works so well. It "freezes" the wood at a specific moisture content, which stabilizes the piece and prevents an incursion from armies of beasties that might attempt an attack. If the wood was dry and environmentally stable when coated, it will remain this way until the epoxy coating is breached some how.

Coupled with epoxy's gap filling, adhesive, coating and sealing qualities, it's no wonder it's the preferred choice for wood now. There's just nothing else that can compare, across all the physical attributes epoxy has to offer. Some have a few of the qualities, but they lack in other areas.

Try some epoxy. I like mine with a salad on the side, personally.

[Darce]

Sheesh, real men have it straight up!!

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

Interesting what Paul has written above.

I really am an epoxy acolyte and don't have the broad range of boatbuilding and repairing experience of different methods that PAR does.

For instance ... I never knew about steamed ribs not rotting as much. Obvious when he explains it.

Basically ... I would never have started boatbuilding if epoxy was not around. It was my avenue of opportunity.

Cheers to all.

MIK

[Kev da Fridgee]

Personally I like mine roasted, but thats me, just to add to what Mik and Par have said, I began asking questions last year on the subject of epoxies and there strengths etc, went away and did some "shed testing" and would whole heartilly agree that used correctly epoxy resins etc are are great product for us ametaurs, so far I have had NO adverse reactions at all (aside from a bit of indigestion) but that could have been the vino

[Boatmik]

I would double and treble emphasise the importance of doing dry runs. Apart from making things go smoothly and keep epoxy off stuff it is an excellent double check of measurements before bits get glued in.

It doesn't necessarily mean you will be doing "dry runs" forever ... for example I have the routine for gluing up foil blanks so clear in my head I can just dig in and start. But that knowledge has come from lots of dry runs.

... and some not so dry runs that I would rather not speak about ... epoxy from the body cavities that paul mentioned to breakfast (which he also mentions???)

Time for a snack

See youse
MIK

[PAR]

I too will admit to making epoxy runs without the benefit of a dry run, but like Michael, I've had such a clear picture of what I was about to do, that the redundancy of a dry run wasn't necessary. These occasions will typically be in a "production" type setting. The last time was when I was laminating up some ribs. I had 76 ribs to make. The jig permitted me to do about 6 at a time. After a few dry runs and successfully molded ribs, a routine was established. Clamps where left in place, things covered, taped and other wise prepared. All there was to do was pluck some stock, arrange them and mix up goo. I was "set up" to produce ribs, so the initial few dry runs just established a procedural format, which I then followed religiously.

Preparation is the name of the game with epoxy work. You can make it go easy or curse like a mad man trying to remove cured or yet to fully cure goo off things you rather have not gotten it on.

A tip to newbies: if you have to pee, do so before mixing up epoxy, trust me you don't want to learn this tip, the same way I did. And no, it doesn't matter how "skilled" you are, the stuff will find a way. It's not particularly comfortable explaining these things, to a less then sympathetic emergency room nurse.

I've matured as a person and now prefer some roughage with my polymers Darce . . .

[Pricey]

I myself have only be using epoxy for a short period of time. The things that are paramount for me when using are:

Use an organic and particle filter respirator. This can be used when mixing and applying the product as well as when sanding or cutting.

Wear gloves (surgical) and protect arms etc from epoxy coming into contact with skin.

I also collect as much dust as possible with my extractor and tool attachments. Also i like to make sure that the kids and missus are out of the way.

One thing that is an advantage for me i find is that i can cut out and make numerous bits, dry fit and check for fit and then epoxy up in the afternoon. When i come back in the morning everything is cured and i can get started on the next lot of bits.

I am extremely happy with the results that epoxy gives for boat building.

[appiwood]

Hello Par

You mentioned in your 25th of Feb post " fairly inert " is that like a little bit pregnant??

Ed

[Boatmik]

I think he is talking about getting a small amount of uncured epoxy in your mouth by accident. If anyone does that they are not going to drop to the floor.

I don't think he means mixing a litre and drinking it.

MIK

[soundman]

I don't wish to get all twisted about it but.

It is my belief based on information that I have had in the past that epoxy isn't all that benign and it varies greatly from product to product.

generaly in the cured form almost without exception epoxy is inert... however it carries the same risks as other inert particulate matter..so good dust extraction is wise as is good dust hygeen.

Now onto the "dangers" of uncured epoxies.

IF IN DOUBT READ THE MATERIAL SAFETY AND DATA SHEETS.

both the unmixed resin and hardner are very hard to get off stuff including skin and it does not wash out of cloth very well at all.

the hardner particularly is quite alergeninc to some people, I have a friend that used epoxy for the first time nearly a month ago and came into contact with hardner....the blotches on his legs are almost gone now.

There is a great deal of variance in toxisity between various epoxies....many of the modern boat building epoxies spruke up their relative low toxisity compared to older formulations.

In the past there was considerable concern about epoxies used in cable jointing as to the long and short term exposure to the product and it fumes. So much so that specific work methods were specified and the product was repackaged to minimise contact and fumes during mixing (sealed mix in bag).

the concerns were as a long term carcenogen and short to medium term brain damage.
Jointers were comming out of the pits after using this stuff with screaming headaches that lasted for days.


personaly I have found some of the woodcraft pouring epoxies ( liquid glass products) can leave you with a headache if exposed to the fumes.

Remember any fume that gives you a headache represents a significant health problem of one sort or another

The problem with many of the epoxies is there are generaly no strong, unpleasant or irritationg fumes, so there is a tendency not to use protective equipment and to believe they are harmless.

The two main paths of toxic transfer are breathing fumes and absorbtion thru the skin......absorbtion thru the skin is greatly accelerated by solvents such as alcahol, thinners or acetone.

Now remember I said there are very big differences in the health and safety risks of different epoxies.

AND most of the modern marine epoxies have considerably reduced toxisity in comparison to other epoxy products.

The number one consideration has to be ventilation and lots of it.....not just open air but moving fresh air.

If you are expecting a respirator to give you protection..I would be taking advice on the matter.... and I would expect that would be a cartrige suitable for two pack paints.

Number two consideration has to be hygeen... particularly when mixing.

put down a disposable surface to mix on, use disposable gloves, use disposagle mixing containers and if you aren't using pumps use disposable measuring devices.

make sure you do not allow any unmixed product to lie arround or be left on surfaces or articles.......wipe down the spouts of the pumps after use and have something to catch the drips.

Immediately bag or wrap contaminated articles and put them in the rubbish.

Treat anything that has unmixed epoxy on it as contaminated.

As for getting the stuff off your skin....it has been covered many times....avoid using solvents....it is known that this greatly accelerated the transition of the toxic products across the skin barrier.

ordinary vinegar works very well at getting bothe the unmixed product and uncured mixed product off skin......probably better than the solvents.

In summary
There are specific risks of epoxy that are not immediatly aparant, However they are reasonably easy to deal with.

If you treat epoxy as beeing as hazardous as it is sticky and unpleasant as it is, there should be few problems.

And yes many of the other industrial products are as bad if not worse.

OH... you do not want this stuff in your eyes...at least wear safety glasses and do not put contaminated hand anywhere near your face.

cheers