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  1. #61
    Join Date
    May 2003
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    South Oz, the big smokey bit in the middle
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    67
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    4,377

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dhgomm View Post
    Thanks for the reminder, I have no intention of forgetting anything as critical as the bolt through the tiller ( attaching it to the rudder box ), or through bolting the rudder hinges to the stern.

    That's funny

    Richard

    (it's always the critical things you forget, the unimportant ones are easy to remember )

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  3. #62
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    65
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    8,138

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    Cool David.

    It is one of the things I pick up in photos of new boats - quite a few think they can "do it later" or "see if it is needed".

    But "resistance is futile"

    MIK

  4. #63
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Maylands, Perth, Western Australia
    Age
    58
    Posts
    218

    Thumbs up PDRacer cost estimate

    Hi everyone,

    While the weather has been inconsistant over here in Perth ( and I needed to buy more resin and glue powder ), I have been unable to get any work done on my PDRacer.

    The other day, I was e-mailed about what the cost of building a PDRacer was, if buying your own materials, and constructing it from the plans ( as opposed to buying a kit from Duck Flats with all parts pre-cut etc. ).

    I replied, after a bit of searching for reciepts, and just estimating costs based on my purchases, the following was the result for prices in Perth:

    There are several ways to get materials, I purchased all new materials, secondhand could be much cheaper, but more time consuming to find

    The solid timbers ( Durien ) cost about $135 ( purchased wholesale in four large pieces that I had to cut down to size with a saw table – none of the commercial sizes match any of the sizes in the plans anyway ), these made all parts of the hull framing, mast, booms ( lug rig has 2 – but a shorter mast ), and centerboard/rudder.

    Marine plywood cost about $195 ( you could try just waterproof exterior ply to save cost ) 3 sheets, 1 x 6mm thick, 2 x 4mm thick, both 4’x 8’.

    Fiberglass materials cost about $550 ( if not epoxy coating the hull this reduces to about $390 ), fiberglass tape and cloth ( for centerboard/rudder, hull, mast and boom reinforcements ), resin and hardener, modifying powder to make resin and hardener also a glue and filler.

    Paint about $180, I purchased exterior grade factory seconds ( price is about $360 for new stock ), acrylic sealer/undercoat and gloss enamel ( 2 coats of each ).

    Fittings and rigging etc. cost about $250 ( rope, pulleys towing eye, cleats, rudder hinges, etc. ), I am making my rudder hinges to save cost ( save about $70 ).

    Sail professionally made ( meets PDR racing rules ) from Duck flats ( lug rig ) cost, about $380 inc. shipping ( polytarp to make your own costs about $40 ).

    You can see that the total cost for building a lug rig PDRacer is around $1800 or more, or less than around $1200 ( for the sprit rig version you could save about 15% on these prices ).

    Note: I have added about 10% to the cost of timber ( I purchased my timber about 18 months ago ) to more accurately reflect today’s prices, all other prices should be fairly close current price estimates.

    If purchasing a PDRacer kit from Duck Flats your hull could end up around 10kg lighter than mine, because of the materials they use, which are not available here in Perth. ( the shipping cost would however be quite high – about 60kg for just the timber and marine ply ).

    I hope the breakdown of the prices is useful to you for any comparisons, and gives you a total idea of the costs, not just of the things included in the kits.

    The cost does not seem as bad if you purchase the materials as you need them, as it is reasonable to expect it to take you a year or more to finish your PDRacer.

    Hopefully this may prove useful to others as well.

  5. #64
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Maylands, Perth, Western Australia
    Age
    58
    Posts
    218

    Thumbs up Car topping and launching trolley

    Hi everyone,

    I have been thinking about making a car top removable rear loading ramp / rack system for use with my car, and a launching / retrieving trolley ( to get the PDracer from the car to the water.

    I have seen many of the Ideas available, and have come up with a suitable solution for myself.

    Car top loading / carrying
    Basically the car top removable rear loading ramp will be 2 x I - beam shaped 2.4m wooden rails with a removable hinged joint, connecting it to the roof carry bar mounted matching 2 x I - beam shaped 2.4m wooden rails ( all ramp and rail surfaces in contact with the PDRacer will be carpet covered to prevent scratching ).

    To load you just place the loading ramps in position and insert, and tighten the bolts at the hinge point. Then position the PDRacer stern at the end of the loading ramps, flip the PDRacer over to lay it on the loading ramps, and slide it up and into position on the car top rack. Finally remove and store the loading ramps and mast / sails etc.on the car top rack ( remember to tie everything down to the carry bars, and the front and rear of the car for extra safety ). Unloading is just as easy.

    Launch / retrieve trolley
    I have purchased 2 second hand bearing mounted 10" x 3" pneumatic wheels , and puchased threaded rod, ( the wheels are secured to the threaded rod by split pins ) nuts and washers to secure the 2 threaded rod sections through a wooden frame, with a draw bar and simple handle. the PDRacer gets secured to the trolley by elastic luggage straps for convenience, all surfaces contacting the PDRacer will be carpet covered.

    All timber will be glued and epoxy coated as for the PDRacer, then painted.

    Total cost for both projects is about $140 using new material ( except for the wheels and carpet which are second hand ).

  6. #65
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Maylands, Perth, Western Australia
    Age
    58
    Posts
    218

    Thumbs up Progress Report

    Hi everyone,

    I have now fiberglss taped the 3 rubbing strips/floor reinforcements, the second coat of resin should be going on later this afternoon, as well as a last coat of resin for the inside surfaces of the rudder box ( this will finish preperations for gluing the sides onto the spacer block ).

    That just leaves sanding the hull inside and out, temporarily fitting of all the fittings and drilling any required holes for mounting the fittings or rigging etc. I also need to add a coat of resin in each hole, before giving the hull a final coat of resin inside and out, and painting it.

    An error in the cost of my car top removable rear loading ramp / rack system for use with my car, and a launching / retrieving trolley has been made. After ordering the timber ( I had to settle for 2 seperate longer pieces, rather than the 1 big piece I had in mind due to stock being unavailable ) and I failed to multiply the price/per metre by the length, so the cost for both projects has risen to $190.

    My car top removable rear loading ramp / rack system for use with my car, and a launching / retrieving trolley will make it easy for me to launch/retrieve and load/unload my PDRacer from my car by myself, and should be ready to use about the same time as my PDRacer.

  7. #66
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    65
    Posts
    8,138

    Default

    Hi David,

    Would be nice to see some pics of the loader once you have it in action. I think a lot of people have a similar problem and it is great if it can be sorted with wood.

    MIK

  8. #67
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Maylands, Perth, Western Australia
    Age
    58
    Posts
    218

    Thumbs up Progress Report

    Hi everyone,

    One I have constructed ( before epoxy coating painting ) the car top removable rear loading ramp / rack system for use with my car, and a launching / retrieving trolley ( designed to make it easy for 1 person to do everything ), I will post pictures for all to see, and provide whatever explanations that I can, so others can make their own later if desired.

    I purchased the timber yesterday for the car top removable rear loading ramp / rack system for use with my car, and a launching / retrieving trolley ( I have once again gone with Durien because of it's long straight grain, zero knots and easy machining/sanding/gluing properties).

    The 2 pieces of Durien ( 160 x 39 x 2085mm and 260 x 42 x 3075mm - 29.1kg total ) were an even orange color on the outside with pale interior which I had not heard of before ( this is the 3rd color variation I have now seen ).

    So I measured the densities of each piece as 0.722, and 0.587 compared with the lower density measurement of a piece used for my PDRacer earlier of just 0.488 ( pinkish grey color interior and outside - said to be from the heart of the trunk ), I have now measured the density of a piece of the ( mottled orange outside color and white balsa like interior - likely to be from the outside of the trunk ) as 0.530 ( which came as a surprise, because I was told Durien of that color is actually very low density ) that was cut from the same original piece ( 1 of 3 pieces purchased ) used to make parts for my PDRacer, giving a large range of densities ( the color at least seems to help narrow down what density the timber is ).

    I also cut up all the pieces of timber needed for both projects yesterday with my trusty 'Triton saw table' ( light to medium duty with detachable circular saw, and legs that store under the table top for convenient storage and carrying when not in use ), with optional wheel kit ( 2 wheels ), as it is fairly heavy.

    The car top removable rear loading ramp / rack system and launching / retrieving trolley cross beams, are I - beam cross sections made from 3 pieces, top and bottom horizontal rails ( 10 x 38mm ) and centre vertical rail ( 15 x 38mm )( all 3 pieces cut from 1 piece just 38 x 38mm ).

    Using the epoxy construction method as used in the PDRacer ( epoxy glue and at least 2 resin coats before painting ), should make a great strong, but light, twist resistant laminated beam.

    I am still considering options for mounting the car top rack system rails to my existing gutter mount ( my car is a 1984 Ford Telstar ( rebadged Mazda 626 ) 5 door hatchback ) carry bars, a set of wooden blocks glued to the underside of the rails, either side of my carry bars, and through bolted from either side of the carry bars seems a good idea at the moment.

    I also managed to add the 2nd coat of resin to the 3 skids/external floor reinforcements, the hull just needs to be sanded top to bottom, and interior, before applying the last coat of resin.

    I added an extra coat of resin to the rudder box interior surfaces, so that is now ready for assembly.

    Here are the actual values used for the calculations, and how the calculations work:

    Piece 1: 3.9 cm x 16.0 cm x 208.5 cm = Volume 13010.4 cubic cm
    - Weight 9400 g + Volume 13010.4 cubic cm = Density 0.7224989 g/cubic cm

    Piece 2: 4.2 cm x 26.0 cm x 307.5 cm = Volume 33579.0 cubic cm
    - Weight 19700 g + Volume 33579.0 cubic cm = Density 0.5866761 g/cubic cm

    Piece 3: 2.5 cm x 2.5 cm x 242.8 cm = Volume 1517.5 cubic cm
    - Weight 805 g + Volume 1517.5 cubic cm = Density 0 1517.5 g/cubic cm

    Formula: first calculate Volume: Height ( cm ) x Width ( cm ) x Length (cm ) = Volume ( cubic cm )
    then calculate Density: Weight ( g ) + Volume ( cubic cm ) = Density ( g/cubic cm ) - ( correct answer is always between 0 and 1 )
    for comparison: pure water density = 1.0
    Last edited by dhgomm; 31st October 2009 at 03:21 AM. Reason: added new density calculations, made minor corrections.

  9. #68
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Maylands, Perth, Western Australia
    Age
    58
    Posts
    218

    Thumbs up Progress Report

    Hi everyone,

    Just to let you know, after cutting up the large piece and some of the smaller piece of Durien, into 30 smaller parts ( virtually every part needed - including 2 short lengths to make all other minor parts/reinforcements as needed ) for both the boat trolley and loading ramps/car top rack last Thursday, I am still tired and aching all over today ( Saturday ).

    Clearly a case of overdoing it, so I will need a break until monday, when I will make a start on the assembly of the 6 I - beams, for both projects, and the rudder box assembly for the PDRacer.

  10. #69
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    South Oz, the big smokey bit in the middle
    Age
    67
    Posts
    4,377

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dhgomm View Post
    Hi everyone,

    One I have constructed ( before epoxy coating painting ) the car top removable rear loading ramp / rack system for use with my car, and a launching / retrieving trolley ( designed to make it easy for 1 person to do everything ), I will post pictures for all to see, and provide whatever explanations that I can, so others can make their own later if desired.
    Please do mate, I'll need both for the LBD.

    Richard

  11. #70
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Maylands, Perth, Western Australia
    Age
    58
    Posts
    218

    Thumbs up Progress Report

    Hi everyone,

    I just assembled, and temporarily screwed the front trolley beam together ( goes across from side to side just in front of the wheels ), and even without glue it seems remarkably twist and bend resistant.

    I also temporarily screwed the bottom joint on the rear trolley beam togeather ( runs parallel to the front trolley beam but just behind the wheels ).

    I also temporarily screwed the PDRacer's rudder box together today, I shall glue them all tomorrow morning.

    The 4 axel bearers simply mount into the recess between the top and bottom rails and at right angles between the the front and rear trolley beams, I hope to get these in place tomorrow too.

    The beams mentioned are made of three parts: top and bottom ( horizontal ) rails - both 8mm thick x 38mm wide, centre rail ( vertical ) 16mm thick x 38mm high, they are assembled and glued into a capital 'I' cross section with epoxy adhesive as for the PDRacer.

  12. #71
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Hunter Valley NSW
    Age
    69
    Posts
    1,759

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dhgomm View Post
    Hi everyone,

    One I have constructed ( before epoxy coating painting ) the car top removable rear loading ramp / rack system for use with my car, and a launching / retrieving trolley ( designed to make it easy for 1 person to do everything ), I will post pictures for all to see, and provide whatever explanations that I can, so others can make their own later if desired.

    I purchased the timber yesterday for the car top removable rear loading ramp / rack system for use with my car, and a launching / retrieving trolley ( I have once again gone with Durien because of it's long straight grain, zero knots and easy machining/sanding/gluing properties).

    The 2 pieces of Durien ( 160 x 39 x 2085mm and 260 x 42 x 3075mm - 29.1kg total ) were an even orange color on the outside with pale interior which I had not heard of before ( this is the 3rd color variation I have now seen ).

    So I measured the densities of each piece as 0.722, and 0.587 compared with the lower density measurement of a piece used for my PDRacer earlier of just 0.488 ( pinkish grey color interior and outside - said to be from the heart of the trunk ), I have now measured the density of a piece of the ( mottled orange outside color and white balsa like interior - likely to be from the outside of the trunk ) as 0.530 ( which came as a surprise, because I was told Durien of that color is actually very low density ) that was cut from the same original piece ( 1 of 3 pieces purchased ) used to make parts for my PDRacer, giving a large range of densities ( the color at least seems to help narrow down what density the timber is ).

    I also cut up all the pieces of timber needed for both projects yesterday with my trusty 'Triton saw table' ( light to medium duty with detachable circular saw, and legs that store under the table top for convenient storage and carrying when not in use ), with optional wheel kit ( 2 wheels ), as it is fairly heavy.

    The car top removable rear loading ramp / rack system and launching / retrieving trolley cross beams, are I - beam cross sections made from 3 pieces, top and bottom horizontal rails ( 10 x 38mm ) and centre vertical rail ( 15 x 38mm )( all 3 pieces cut from 1 piece just 38 x 38mm ).

    Using the epoxy construction method as used in the PDRacer ( epoxy glue and at least 2 resin coats before painting ), should make a great strong, but light, twist resistant laminated beam.

    I am still considering options for mounting the car top rack system rails to my existing gutter mount ( my car is a 1984 Ford Telstar ( rebadged Mazda 626 ) 5 door hatchback ) carry bars, a set of wooden blocks glued to the underside of the rails, either side of my carry bars, and through bolted from either side of the carry bars seems a good idea at the moment.

    I also managed to add the 2nd coat of resin to the 3 skids/external floor reinforcements, the hull just needs to be sanded top to bottom, and interior, before applying the last coat of resin.

    I added an extra coat of resin to the rudder box interior surfaces, so that is now ready for assembly.

    Here are the actual values used for the calculations, and how the calculations work:

    Piece 1: 3.9 cm x 16.0 cm x 208.5 cm = Volume 13010.4 cubic cm
    - Weight 9400 g + Volume 13010.4 cubic cm = Density 0.7224989 g/cubic cm

    Piece 2: 4.2 cm x 26.0 cm x 307.5 cm = Volume 33579.0 cubic cm
    - Weight 19700 g + Volume 33579.0 cubic cm = Density 0.5866761 g/cubic cm

    Piece 3: 2.5 cm x 2.5 cm x 242.8 cm = Volume 1517.5 cubic cm
    - Weight 805 g + Volume 1517.5 cubic cm = Density 0 1517.5 g/cubic cm

    Formula: first calculate Volume: Height ( cm ) x Width ( cm ) x Length (cm ) = Volume ( cubic cm )
    then calculate Density: Weight ( g ) + Volume ( cubic cm ) = Density ( g/cubic cm ) - ( correct answer is always between 0 and 1 )
    for comparison: pure water density = 1.0
    Nice post David, very informative.
    I have found that a simple way to remember Mass Density Volume calc formula is to remember the "My Dear Valentine" triangle. Used to calculate the unknown of the three when you have two values

    Like this:

  13. #72
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    65
    Posts
    8,138

    Default

    The LBD will be easy to get up on the rack because it is longer than the PDRacer.

    You put the nose up on the back rack and slide it forward.

    MIK

  14. #73
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Maylands, Perth, Western Australia
    Age
    58
    Posts
    218

    Thumbs up Progress Report

    Hi everyone,

    Thanks Bruce for that handy quick reference substitution triangle, I had never seen it before.

    Today I have glued the bottom part onto the centre part of the first and second cross beams for the trolley, also glued 1 end of all 4 axel bearer blocks into place on the first cross beam.

    I have glued together both halves of my rudder box for the PDRacer, it just needs the screw holes filled and to get 3 resin coates on the outside surfaces before adding the hinges ( still to be made ).

    I should be able to glue together the rest of the main part of the trolley tomorrow, I did all of the preperations today, I should be able to have it finished well enough to photograph by the weekend.

    Next week I hope to get the car top rack and ramps made to show everyone, and make the rudder hinges for my PDRacer.

    My cordless drill battery charger died ( this slowed me down a bit today ), I have found a substitute charger ( slightly lower voltage ) that should give me reasonable ( slightly slower top speed but full run time ) use tomorrow, fortunately I also have a second cordless drill I can use as well.

  15. #74
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Maylands, Perth, Western Australia
    Age
    58
    Posts
    218

    Thumbs up Progress Report

    Hi everyone,

    I had fun gluing together the main framework section of the trolley today, I also made the removable mounting for the drawbar section, and cut the threaded rod into two sections to serve as axles.

    I have decided to make the handle for the drawbar out of 38mm square Durien, and just make it round using the same procedure as for the PDRacer's yard,

    Tomorrow I will tackle the drawbar section and handle, while filling the screw holes in the PDRacer's rudder box and the trrolleys main section.

    It's been hot here in Perth the last few days, 31 and very humid with little to no breeze, but the 'Bote cote' still hardens fine, just a little quicker.
    Last edited by dhgomm; 5th November 2009 at 02:50 AM. Reason: spelling error

  16. #75
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Maylands, Perth, Western Australia
    Age
    58
    Posts
    218

    Thumbs up Progress Report

    Hi everyone,

    Today I just made and screwed together all the parts to complete the drawbar section ( minus handle ) and the main section of the trolley, including test fitting the axles and wheels.

    Everything came together brilliantly, after filling the screw holes and gluing together the new work, I just need to add small structural fillets in the corners and sand everything back tomorrow and Saturday to finish construction.

    There will be a photo posted showing the trolley upside down on the PDRacer so you can see how it works by Monday. .

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