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  1. #1
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    Default BETH - building without epoxy use?

    Dear Boatmik and All,

    I'm currently estimating material costs etc. for BETH's building and I'm thinking about... my alergic reactions for epoxy too.
    Epoxy is generally recomended in plans as the best for glueing, filleting and coating plywood and timbers. Michael not anticipate to use other glues for BETH.

    First BETH build without epoxy glue is Norm Lehman's one:
    https://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...t=78322&page=2

    He added thickness of some elements for more glueing surface.
    Which glue he used?
    I'm thinking to add few timber's elements on places where plywood's bulkheads and knees are filleted to sides, bottom and deck in plans - for more glueing surface.
    Probably few copper/brass nails and screws will be needed there too.

    I'm thinking about poliurethane glue - SOUDAL 66A for example.

    Instead of epoxy coating I'm thinking about lineseed varnish (veneer) for timber and plywood saturation, and oil paint and oil laquer...

    I'ts old technology which used for our first boat build on the late 1950 (many years before of common use epoxy resin in my country) .
    http://www.robert_hoffman.republika....ra_lodka01.jpg
    This boat was owned by our family since 1966 to 1981 and she were sold and sailed few years else under new owner... (almost 30 years at all).

    What are you thinkig about it?
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


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  3. #2
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    Default

    Chris, who is building Trim, the RAID41 prototype, has had great success with the finishing sytem he has developed over a number of builds. He wrote about his methods in a recent Water Craft. It sounds a similar system to yours, (I think) 6 coats of Varnol, allowed to dry off properly and then many coats of normal varnish. I can confirm Chris's boats sit out the harsh Scottish winters just laid upside down in his garden, and this finish really does cope with such treatment.



    I think the consumption of epoxy was down to just £5's worth on his Stickleback canoe build.

    Sure MIk will be along to comment on the structural aspects.

    Brian

  4. #3
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotter View Post
    Chris, who is building Trim, the RAID41 prototype/.../
    It sounds a similar system to yours, (I think) 6 coats of Varnol, allowed to dry off properly and then many coats of normal varnish. I can confirm Chris's boats sit out the harsh Scottish winters just laid upside down in his garden, and this finish really does cope with such treatment.
    Brian!
    WOW! So beautiful finished boats!

    I think the consumption of epoxy was down to just £5's worth on his Stickleback canoe build.
    For glueing and for 3 layers of coating "wet on wet" method - probably will be ca. 9 litres of epoxy resin (ca. 10 Euro per 1 litre in my country ..) + hardener + powder for filleting...

    Sure MIk will be along to comment on the structural aspects.
    Hoping for it
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  5. #4
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    Default

    My son was joking recently that with the big increases of costs of plywood, and epoxy being so expensive, people will be amazed in the future that we could afford to build in plywood at all! Real wood is about 1/3 the price of plywood at the moment. Real wood and no epoxy will be the new low cost boat building.

    I know Chris has used a 4 litre epoxy container already and has bought another 4 litres with all the final hull coating still to do.

    Brian

  6. #5
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    Probably Varnol is most expensive oil/varnish system and probably it's the best of this oil/varnish method, but I can find many less expensive oil paints and oil laquers good for boats. My boat will be stored in my garage on winters - not in my garden laid... and she will not still on the water on the summers - than her life can be longer than our first boat's was.

    True classic boatbuilding and woodworking (without plywood and epoxy) is really beautiful, but more time consumpting and harder for novices.
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  7. #6
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    Default

    Howdy Robert ... had to do some thinking about this.

    The big problem is the epoxy allergy - so you should avoid the stuff.

    First to the downsides ... the polyurethane glues or the modified PVA type (sold as an exterior glue - not the old white PVA which dissolves in water) are quite strong but rely on two things.

    1/ They are not gap filling - so you need to have very close fits
    2/ They require high clamping pressures.

    This was the problems with the glues of the '50s, '60s, '70s that were used to make lightweight boats - they were not gap filling and required higher clamping pressures.

    We used to glass tape the boats to prevent them from leaking and had to replace the glass tape every few years to get rid of the leaking.

    Epoxy built boats just never leak, whereas our racing boats with the old glues started leaking around the 3 or four year mark.

    If there is no allergy problem ... I think epoxy is so superior as the glue that there is no reason to try anything else - it adds so much to the life and ease of owning the boat it is worthwhile.

    However if the allergy problem is there ... you do have to choose something else.

    So another glue, but careful attention to fitting things together, use the bronze ring nails every 100mm - maybe it will be OK for the deck without the nails.

    And if you can get someone to do the glass taping using epoxy - of the chines only - that would be great. There is almost no point doing glassing with polyester or any other resin because they don't stick to timber reliably.

    Please comment about all of this, Robert, and how feasible it seems.

    Michael

  8. #7
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    Is there any knowledge if the water based epoxies are less of a problem in respect to becoming allergic to them?

    Brian

  9. #8
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    Michael - Thank you for reply!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    The big problem is the epoxy allergy - so you should avoid the stuff.
    I need to make current allergy test first . Many years ago I had allergy for epoxy and few years later... no!

    /.../the polyurethane glues or the modified PVA type (sold as an exterior glue - not the old white PVA which dissolves in water) are quite strong but rely on two things.

    1/ They are not gap filling - so you need to have very close fits
    2/ They require high clamping pressures.

    This was the problems with the glues of the '50s, '60s, '70s that were used to make lightweight boats - they were not gap filling and required higher clamping pressures.
    Yes - it's a problem in amateur backyard - I have no unlimited numbers of clamps...
    You are right, I remember many leaking plywood boats from '50s-'70s. Leak's points were nests of rot - most of those boats were ruined by rots.

    Epoxy built boats just never leak/.../

    If there is no allergy problem ... I think epoxy is so superior as the glue that there is no reason to try anything else - it adds so much to the life and ease of owning the boat it is worthwhile.
    I'm thinking the same.

    So another glue, but careful attention to fitting things together, use the bronze ring nails every 100mm - maybe it will be OK for the deck without the nails.
    You are right!

    Tell to the truth: I prefer epoxy for many advantages. It secure success.
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  10. #9
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotter View Post
    Is there any knowledge if the water based epoxies are less of a problem in respect to becoming allergic to them?
    Brian,
    I haven't knowlege in it.
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  11. #10
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    Howdy Brian,

    I think there are water based epoxy paints maybe .. but I would guess a potential problem is similar to adding solvents to regular epoxy. That it ends up being permeable to water.

    Then the timber gets moisture and either starts to rot or starts to swell and shrink at different times so the glue or the epoxy coating starts breaking down.

    MIK

  12. #11
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    Default

    I am not sure of this .. but I have heard some anecdotal evidence recently that the 2:1 epoxies are less allergenic than the ones that are closer to 5:1.

    I had two people come to me at the Goolwa boat show and say that they had a really bad allergy to 5:1 epoxies but then changed to 2:1 and didn't have much of a problem.

    I have never heard of this before.

    MIK

  13. #12
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    I am not sure of this .. but I have heard some anecdotal evidence recently that the 2:1 epoxies are less allergenic than the ones that are closer to 5:1.

    I had two people come to me at the Goolwa boat show and say that they had a really bad allergy to 5:1 epoxies but then changed to 2:1 and didn't have much of a problem.

    I have never heard of this before.

    MIK

    Epoxy isn't epoxy in terms of causing allergy. To much different ingredients in different brands. Mixing relation indicates for different ingredients. To be sure, you should test several brands / several ingredients. I use Sicomin SD 550x - very few reports of allergy as far I know.

    Jörn

  14. #13
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    Default

    While I have no experience with allergy to epoxy, when building model aeroplanes, I became highly allergic to cyanoacrylate glues (super glues). I swore off them for a couple of years and the allergy disappered. Based on that experience, if you haven't used epoxy for a few years, you may find that you can work with them again, particularly if you can limit/control their use and take precautions such as gloves and a mask (don't laugh, I've built model areoplanes wearing carbon filter masks).

    It's worth a try. Got a mate building a boat at the moment? You can come and help me ... though with the commute from Poland to Adelaide, you might have to sleep over

    Richard

  15. #14
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    Default

    Folks that are highly reactive to epoxy should try a lower refined formulation (lower resin to hardener ratio), but more importantly those that are formulated to be non-blushing. The glycol groups in the epoxy are the usual culprits, with folks that are sensitive. Highly refined epoxies (some of mine are over 5:1) have very specific physical properties (gloss retention, clarity, UV resistance, etc.) and require a stronger glycol/amine reaction within the matrix. Less refined formulations, (fortunately these are usually the cheaper versions too) designed to "non-blush" will be the most benign to people.

  16. #15
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    That clarifies what those two fellows were telling me PAR.

    I always emphasise in these types of discussion that the allergy is rare and the risk reduced by following instructions for keeping epoxy off yourself.

    It is about as common as people who are allergic to horses or apricots.

    But for those that might have an allergy already it is nice to have some knowledge building up here.

    MIK

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