Chasing Down Prices and Services for Merbau

[barrysumpter]

Hi all,

Just thought I'd pass on my trials an tribulations regarding getting the best price for the Merbau.

I always start at Taits Timber and Hardware here in Glen Iris. They've been helping with the not only the structural design for my Octagon deck for months now, but also discussing the ins and outs of woodworking in general.

Once Taits knew I needed 460 lineal meters. They offered me $3 per lineal meter.

I thought I'd shop around a bit by phone and see what I could find.

As always my search started with the trading post.

Tile Importers had Merbau prices at 2.40 / LM.

I went down to take a look. The yard and warehouse was huge and very busy. They had signs about an automatic $20 fine for leaving the bins not stacked properly. No return and no refunds. Didn’t think to ask if they took credit cards since I wasn’t buying anything yet.

I overheard someone ask for a better price. The salesman just said 'leave it, someone will buy it'.

I had a decent look around the yard and warehouse. Heaps and Heaps of supplies.

Finally found the Merbau. Looked like it was a 1000 LM stack broken up. The sign said 2.30. And 2.4 lengths and greater 2.40.

I had a look thru and some were really rough and lots had this goo on them. Some were warped either horizontally or vertically.
And they had been stored outside. On racks.


Wanted to ask some questions. But no one to be found to help. Finally someone said 'that’s the way they come, you have to pick the ones you want'.

Returned to Taits after my disappointment.

Taits said all Merbau comes from the same place. All being 'A' grade. Every reseller received the same type supply.

The goo is the moisture from the Merbau sapping out. The Merbau sap will stain a swimming pool. Make sure the ground underneath is protected if you don't want it stained.

I then asked Taits for a better than Trade price hoping they could match or come close to the 2.30 LM.

They said the 2.30 is a ludicrous price.

And that Taits offers better service.
Proper staking, under cover, encourages customers to pick what they want, cutting available (at a price), $3 / LM until the project is completed (not a one off price), advice, plenty of personnel available, delivery available (at a price).

Their advice was a very confident pre drilling and using twisted shank nails hammered by hand. No other advice was given for this topic nor would discussed.

So convinced I purchased my first 43 lengths of 1.8 lm of 40mm Merbau.

Got home and realized that a lot were really rough or warped. Luckily there were 24 perfect and 1 slightly rough at one end. I had also realized that I had paid for 43 and got home with 38. (I had gone inside to ask one of the customer reps to help calc 40 mm widths into my decking area I needed to cover. At the time, I had returned to find the yardman finishing the paper work. And had specifically asked him if he had placed all 43 in my vehicle.
He confirmed and I thanked him for being so quick in not only loading my vehicle for me but cutting the extra 6 1.8 that were NOT in the stack. )

Luckily there were 24 perfect and 1 slightly rough at one end.

So returning to Taits explaining not only did I receive only 38 out of my purchased 43 but that when asked to calculate 40mm widths they should have said that Merbau only comes in 70 mm widths. And that I only really needed 25 1.8 lengths.

So the customer rep just had to case down the yardman. With me trailing behind telling him it doesn't matter just to fix me up so I can go on my way. By the time I caught up with the customer rep the yardman was in defensive mode and told me I should have stayed out at the car with him.

I told them both it didn't matter to just fix me up so I could be on my way. The customer rep and yardman argued about what to do for a few more moments.

The disgruntled yardman removed the 13 Merbau lengths from my car and didn't speak to me at all. The customer rep refunded me price for the 43 and charged me for the 25.

I then ran out and rented the Paslode nail gun with 50mm gal nails. The results of which are posted on a previous message on this same forum.

So now that I knew I had to nail by hand and selectively pick my Merbau I thought I'd chase up another Merbau retailer for a better price.

Timber Merchants had Merbau for 1.80. I rang and found out it was a 30min drive. Which was OK because I needed to return the nail gun to Bunning’s and the yard was about 10 mins from there. I also asked if their quality was high. They just kept repeating 'Its all A grade'. I asked if I could look thru it. They said 'Yes'. I asked if they had plenty in stock. 'Yes'. And does the price include the GST. <cough><cough> Yes it does. Fantastic I'll see you in a few minutes.

Got there. Just a 6 car shed. With packs of wood. Walked up to the counter. Signs of 'No check', 'No cards'. I believe that to be cash only. And 'No refunds' and 'No returns'.

Identifying myself as the person who had just rang and could I now see the Merbau they pointed to a stack of Merbau called Mountain Ash. When I challenged as to Mountain Ash being Merbau them they became very defensive and asked if I had seen Merbau before. I confirmed just this morning and they said that they would be getting 3000 lm in about 2 hours and to come back then.

Again I reminded them I had just called and had confirmation that they had plenty.

That’s when they said they had 'pricing spies' trying to spy on them.
I confirmed I was a customer looking for 460 LM of hand picked Merbau and just wanted to be treated well.

Them: 'You can look at the Merbau but not hand pick them. You can look at the outsides and ends of the bundle but we won't cut the straps.'

Me: Well look, it sounds like you've got too many 'can't do's and 'won't do's for me. I need to pick the pieces I want to use. I think I'll give it a miss.

Them: 'Well, when you buy a packet of chips would you select them one chip at a time?'

Me: 'I'm not spending $1000 + dollars on a bag of chips that my house guests will be walking on for at least the next 20 years.'

Them: 'Then go back to your $3 a m then'.

Me: 'Plus the quality of service and respect.' G'day gentlemen'

Jeez, what a waist of time and now I feel bad because I had a couple of rough necks trying to team up on me and force me into buying timber I couldn’t inspect.

So I returned to Taits and located a younger yards man stacking more Merbau. Who was happy to help and allowed me to go thru almost every piece of Merbau they had.

I needed about 60 pieces of varying lengths. Some lengths they didn’t have.
It seems they buy the bundles which have whatever varying length to make up the bundle.

So it seems you have to make up your list from what ever is available in the yard.

I found that half or more of the lengths I needed were either rough or warped.

The moral of this exercise:

Even though I get short answers from Taits customer reps sometimes. And get an agro yards man every once in a while (who can't count. ). The services they provide far outweigh the abysmal service I received from these others. The lower prices from other vendors is negated by the fact you don’t get to see the product your purchasing.

Taits allowed me to return the extra lengths I didn't need and continue to allow me to purchase at trade prices.

I’m lucky to have Taits just a minutes drive away and will be a faithful timber customer.


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Thanks,
Barry G. Sumpter
Proud Tritoneer


[This message has been edited by barrysumpter (edited 12 December 2001).]

[S Hayward]

Hi Barry
can't help thinking that if you spent more time on the job and less time on the net, on the phone, on the scrounge you might get through your projects a little quicker and with a whole lot less hassle. I don't mean to offend but did you ever think that the rep at Taits had felt he had given loads of service, advice, allowed selection and all the other stuff you mentioned and just maybe was starting to feel a little frustrated at this customer who to top it all off wants a discount! There's an old saying about oats and horses which applies in this case. You knoew the one, if you want nice clean oats pay the price but if you don't mind them after they've been through the horse they come a little cheaper.
Not coming from Melbourne I don't know the businesses you mention but I have sold lots of decking over the years and have a fair idea how things progressed. Most places give reasonable service but all offer different levels and prices. If you find a good supplier give them a go, try not to be too painfull and I'm sure they will respond with good service ( even at a small surcharge )
Finally, if you want the very best prices, ring up, order a full random pack around 500Lm and have it delivered. On the other hand, if you want to select, well I guess you've found out how that works.
Good luck with the deck.
Shaun.

[barrysumpter]

OOPS.

Should have put this under Have Your Say.

Hayward,

For someone who doesn't mean to offend you've certaily made an excellent go of it.

What a shame your reply didn't have a single encouraging point other than what I had already covered.

Its my choice as how to go about spending my time, saving the most of my money, and how to communicate with the people I pay for services.

I've spent more than $3000 with these people over the last year and will be spending $2000 on the deck. I'm sure he probably thought HE was doing well to have been selling me things at retail so often and for so long.

Its my opinion that I've more than paid for the privilege of a discount and should only have to walk thru the door to receive professional service.
Even more so if I go in 5 to 10 times a week.

I speak to people the same way I expect to be spoken to. Professionally and with respect.

Strange, your suggestion to purchase a 500lm pack after reading my post.

For someone who's sold alot of decking over the years I didn't see any reply to my posts of the last few months from you regarding my deck.

My post was to inform the members and allow me to express my own opinion.

Please feel free to reply again or contact me directly.

I encourge other to do the same and not be put off by my response.

I look forward to any further correspondence.

However, If I feel I am being attacked (as I do now) in any shape, form, or fashion, I reserve the right to defend myself.

G'day

Barry G. Sumpter

[This message has been edited by barrysumpter (edited 12 December 2001).]

[coastie]

Barry:
"Nil bastardo carborundum"

[barrysumpter]

Yeah thats right Coastie.

[fcm]

I'd have to agree to some extent with Coastie. Many old sayings come to mind, one of which is "don't bite the hand that feeds you".
You've been privileged enough to be offered trade rates for what I'd call short back yard orders (especially handpicked) - considered to the quantity that trade builders regularly buy. No doubt I'd be asking for something off the retail price when spending $1-5k's with one supplier (especially if I ran an account with them), however I understand that they also have to make a profit to pay wages, maintain equip. expand, develop, not to mention sales reps meeting their weekly/monthly sales quota to keep their jobs.

On the other hand I was bent over a barrell a while ago from a 'choice' red gum supplier in Bayswater. I'd purchased a small slab for an informal table as a present for a relative - not having any suitable rg stock of my own at that time. The bloke assured me over the phone that they only dealt with quality kiln dried red gum, however with the warping that has occurred over the past year I'd put my nuts on the line and call the sales rep a lying bastard (and probably wouldn't stop there). That piece of wood hasn't come within a bulls roar of a kiln.

Realise when you're onto a good thing & when you've been taken for a ride and I'd be right beside you in setting the record straight to those responsible.

Anyhow, its good to see that you've been adding some life to this board which seems to have been slowing over the past couple of months.

Best wishes
Mark


[This message has been edited by fcm (edited 13 December 2001).]

[George]

As a matter of interest, what do the tradesman do? I imagine they would be ordering full packs of timber on a regular basis without selecting individual lengths. I can't see them throwing away every bent piece. For building grade timbers perhaps a degree of imperfection can be tolerated.

[coastie]

Barry:
Looks like you have received the standard treatment that anybody who walks in off the street gets in timber yards.
We must all have a big stamp accross our foreheads with the word "SUCKER" imprinted on it.
I have as a nephew an ex manager of a sawmill located in Moruya on the NSW south coast,this guy is from a family of competing axemen,was Junior World champion,and has lived his life working in and around timber.
He had had enough of the game and now manages a golf club,the stories he has told me over the years,oh boy!
I have another nephew who is the Union delegate for a mill at Tumburumba in south eastern NSW.
The mill he works for was prevously owned by Boral,but has been bought out by a Queensland concern who run a fully automated mill in SE Qld.This mob have come in and want productivity raised by at least 33%,but want less staff to do it with,some of his equipment is not as up to date as you would want.Some people never learn,how can you expect to do the job with only half the people.The mill is currently milling pine & treated pine.
I have worked with builders who order this sort of timber for decking ,pergolas,etc,and you should see some of the stuff that arrives, full of knot holes,twists & curves that you could use it as a water ski,so the lot goes back.All adding to downtime on the job whilst you ring the supplier up and rip into him.
There is such a grading as "SELECT"?.
I throw this open for comment.

[ubeaut]

fcm- I'm probably gunna get a pasting for this but here goes anyway.

Red gum is not and never has been a good furniture timber. No matter what you do to it or how you dry it, it will always move around like a belly dancer. The only way I know to minimize the movement is to use 1" (25mm) thickness or less.

Furniture makers have done all sorts of things to stop it from moving, including the use of angle iron stays across the grain under tables. I have seen these stays bent with the strength of the timber under stress. And don't be fooled into thinking that if you use thicker timber it will move less, nothing could be further from the truth.

fcm - You already know the story about the kitchen that was partly destroyed because of red gum, but for those who don't Click Here

Leave it for house stumps and fence posts and woodturners.
____________________________________________

Barry - I am not taking sides or picking on anyone, I'm merely making a few observations and passing on my thoughts.

In some instances the old saying "Buy cheap buy twice." applies. And this appears to be one of those instances.

Most of the timber yards I deal with do not take credit or checks unless you are very well known to them, and in that case you would more than likely have an account anyway. Most could wallpaper their offices with dud checks and credit card payments.

In theory and for the want of a better term "timber yard etequite" you should pay a premium price for select grade timber, i.e. hand picked best quality. Remember that the timber yard don't get to hand pick their packs. They have to take what they get.

I have in the past purchased packs of timber and been happy to pay an extra few cents per super just for the privelage of making a pack that I was happy with. I have also gone down the cheap route and ended up scrapping as much as half a pack. You definitely do get what you pay for.

If everyone comes along and hand picks the best pieces, pretty soon there will only be the second rate stuff left which no one is going to buy. What is the merchant to do then? Burn it? Offer it at a cheap rate to get rid of it? It is still classed as A Grade timber but then the buyers come for a bargain and say, "Call that A Grade. No way, that stuff's crap." Then what should they do.

The timber merchant can't return the packs he gets if he doesn't like them.
---------------------------------------------
Try this for an exercise. Go to a large supermarket and buy a big tray of nice looking chump chops (you will pay around $10 kg). Open the pack and turn the chops over I'll just about bet that 50% of them are all fat & bone on the back and not as they appeared from the front. Now go to the butcher and buy the same thing you will pay maybe $12 or more for the privelage but you have a say in what you get and will be infinitely more happy with the result.
---------------------------------------------

My feeling is this:
At $1.50 you take what you get (the good with the bad)

At $3.00+ you should get select - YOU hand pick what you want, not the yardman. He is more than likely working there on minimum wage and really couldn't care a stuff about you or your timer. All he's worried about is is filling your trailer up and getting you out of his hair. He couldn't care less what the timber is like and in most instances wouldn't know if it was select or merch grade...... Many years ago I picked up a heap of amazing fiddleback and birdseye cedar from a timber yard for less than a quarter its regular price. Why? Because the yardman, the machinist and the salesman all reckoned it was rubbish. (Not good straight grained stuff like the rest.) They had no idea. Dopes Hahahaha Appologies to any dedicated and caring yardmen or women reading this.[/i]

Just as a final thought on the pricing. Was the $1.50lm and the $2.30lm for 70mm wide or 40mm if it was for 40mm then the $3 price sounds pretty good value to me.

Sorry..... I've turned this into a saga of epic proportions.

Cheers - Neil

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Nemo mortalium omnibus horis sapit.

[barrysumpter]

Hey, Hey!
Thanks for all the replies everyone.

I was afraid to look at the responses because of my reply to Shaun's response.

It seems we've all learned the same lesson I'm writting about here. Thanks for all the confirmations.

I'm learning that you have to choose from whats available. Even the contractors have to. I've got a contractor now building a boundry fence. Who can't get 9' redgum so we went with Iron Bark ( or somthing like that). And same thing. Out of 14 - 4 are really warped. He said he could take them back and tell them he can't use them. And they will replace them. Of course he didn't had pick them. He just went down and paid for an order.

The contractor is a really nice guy. I've been trading labor for his answers to my deliberate questions regarding my Octagon Deck. Although he doesn't have the answers (as in been there done that) he does make intelligent suggestions on how to remidy the situation.

So he's in the same situation. Doesn't want to take it back. But will, since I'm there and asking him to do so. I truely believe that he'd still use the warped ones if I wasn't there.

I can see its hard for the contractor to have to keep up with whats available at the timber yard and having to know the price of the hand picked quality stuff. Its just too hard.

I don't see contractors buying huge quantities of timber when their margin is so narrow.

All contractors who came to give a quote confirmed that they all have to use the same stuff.

My contractor beat everyone by about 700 dollars.

My contractor had built the fence on my other side and I had other contractors tell me that he used the same materials that they would have used. Including hardwood rails which shrink and look really bad after exposure to the elements. So I've asked him to use treated pine posts this time.

I even had some contractors tell me he used the wrong hard wood rails and that they would the the correct ones. Ha Ha Ha

So I'm thinking I've done reasonably well for someone whos spent time researching. Researching on the internet, asking questions here, taking full advantage of the customer reps at Taits, and sneaking in a question or two when the contractors come to quote on a job.

I sencerely appreciate the fact that no one has quoted the lame saying 'Buyer Beware'. The guy who first said that was a sales man and anyone who uses this as a justification should be shot.

My thought is that all I can do is NOT give my custom to places who do NOT satisfy my need. Wheather it be professional respectful treatment or proper pricing.

And give repeat business and my verbal thanks to places who do.

Now without going into a lecture regarding the power of the consumer and boycotting. I believe that we as consumers should be able to pass the message on to whoever is cutting that the quality needs to be improved. If we don't say anything about it then everyone will become complacent and belive that everyone is happy. Once this starts then, as all human beings do, seem to attemp to do as little as neccessary, to cut back on quality, of services, or product, to see how long they can get away with it. Until they either run themselves out of business because their name now represents poor products and everyone has stopped buying them. Or they have to keep reducing their staff to make the price of their products lower to anctually make a sale. (deeeeeeep breaaaaath). And all will turn to anarchy and the the world as we know it will end. THE END OF THE WORLD IS NEIGH. !!!!!

All because I had to hand pick my Merbau decking.

I shall now tell my wife and daughter that I love them.

And fix myself a drink.

Love, hugs, and kiss's to all.



------------------
Thanks,
Barry G. Sumpter
Proud Tritoneer

[ubeaut]

caveat emptor - let the buyer beware (since he or she buys without recourse)

So shoot me!

This post is directed at anyone who cares.

Don't blame the sales person, blame the mug who is only too willing to shell out the money, and as often as not, unwisely.

Anyone who chooses to buy anything should beware. Contrary to popular belief most sellers are not your friends. They have a product that you want, and you have the money that they want. By the way beware of the ones who are your friends, they are often the worst ones of all to deal with.

I reckon it's about time we got back to taking responsibility for our own stupidity, especially when we get it wrong, and stop blaming everyone but ourselves.

You can sure as hell bet we're gunna crow about how brilliant we are when we get it right. The sales person isn't going to get any credit for that one are they.

It might also interest you to know that many retailers work on a very small markup, many as low as 30% and less. Not everyone is out to rip you off. More often than not the bigger chains are ripping you off more than the little man by making more out of you because of their tremendous buying power, while they send the smaller shops slowly broke.

Here is a classic story for you from the U-Beaut, Dumb Idiots file.

I had a man drive 280 km to Geelong to buy 6 bottle of Shellawax for himself and his mates. When I told him the price was $21.45 each GST inc. he nearly fell over.

"You've got to be joking," he said "I can buy it at home for $19.50."

"Why didn't you buy it there then?" I asked him.

"Because he's a member of our club and we reckon he's ripping us of...." was his reply.

I politely explained to him that we only sell from the factory at full retail price because, as the manufacturer we had a commitment to our resellers and if we started undercutting their prices we wouldn't have any resellers.

He hummed and harred for a few seconds, dipped his hand into his pocket, paid for the goods and left in a bit of a huff.

It cost $11.70 more from me than from his local distributor, he made a 560km round trip, in a Land Cruiser no less (atleast $50 for petrol).

I had a call from his local distributor few days later to tell me that the same drongo was booked on Geelong for speeding, (because he was angry at me) heheheheh... then later on hit a roo, doing a few grands worth of damage and had to stay in a hotel after being towed into a town along the way.

I believe I am now known to him as "that bastard from Geelong". Hehehehehe...

I bet he hasn't yet and never will, bother to take responsibility for his own stupidity.

Wake up Australia - Your country needs you.

Sorry for another saga.

Cheers - Neil

[Iain]

Hey Neil, everyone calls you that anyway, hahahaha....
(I drive a landcruiser and it wasn't me)

[barrysumpter]

Yo! BFG!

It's me CFH.

I care.

I don't need to shoot you.
I gave you the gun and you just shot yourself.

Congrats on being a self admitted lamer salesman.

I'm writing about better service and your writting about taking advantage of and poking fun at the misforture of a customer who could have become a client.

It seems you were too busy trying to teach a drongo a lesson than to help him out or improve your business.

Explaining your policy of your support for your distributors to a customer who has just walked in the door is understandable. Not.

Handing him a business card with your phone number is a good place to start.

Giving him a list of the number of resellers he could ring first then stop into see on his way home would have been nice. And pointing out one who is always home, etc.

Asking him to explain your policies to his mates. And telling him he can lie to his mates about getting a better deal from this other reseller because of the super human effort he made by driving so far.

Tell him you'll see him next time or he could tell the reseller at home that he just can't be bothered driving so far this time.

Pointing out a scenic route route he could enjoy. Feed him some lunch. And maybe take him to a brothel.

Or maybe you could have driven him home, carried him to the front door, and tucked him into bed. Taken a taxi home. And felt good about doing a good deed.

But no. You treated him like he was just another victim. Probably lost his custom. And the custom of his mates. Probably lost any future business from them for your reseller.

Its obvious he was upset about his situation. You just don't realize the affects on customers you treat badly.

I certainly won't be going out and telling my members to 'check this product out, the guy who makes it is cool'. I'll just not say anything.

This poor guy will probably remember and feel bad about this for months and get heaps of ribbing from his mates and relatives about the expences and traffic fines and accidents.

He'll become mentally and morally depressed. Take a gun. Shoot mates. Shoot his relatives. Shoot your reseller. Shoot you. And them himself.

All because your trying to make the point of 'caveat emptor'.

No, please, shoot me.

baz

P.S.

Am I the only one who gets this?
Can I truely be the CFH?
Can I stop asking these stupid questions?

Can I?

Can I?

Can I?


P.S.S. This is all in fun now. And I don't plan on ever appologizing. Sorry about that.



[This message has been edited by barrysumpter (edited 14 December 2001).]

[barrysumpter]

Hi Neil,

The merbau only comes in 70mm and 90mm widths. I made a mistake in calculating 40mm widths as discribed above.

All prices discussed are for 70mm widths.

baz

[coastie]

Barry;
have a look at this site
http://www.timber.net.au/

[This message has been edited by (edited 14 December 2001).]