Box #2 S#&t

[Rum Pig]

Sorry no WIP again:doh:
What a SH#T day on the lathe I had:~ I spent more time chasing this box across the floor:C
I think I was thinking to much about the advice given after my first box from the start instead of getting the basics out the way first:doh:
The wood turned beautiful so I can not blame that:no: It started out OK rounded the blank no worries.
Cut my tenons and parted into 2 sections without a problem:U Then I mounted my lid and turned away the inside and polished all good. I think one of my main problems started here the recess I cut for the connection was only 3mm and I think that was to small.
Turned the base OK but I had 1 dig in that sent the base flying a small trim in hight and we were back in business.
I could not get a tight fit with the lid and I think a lot of it is from that recess I did not do one one my first box.
I could not turn the base and lid together so I finished the base and mounted the lid over the chuck and this is where the frisbee practise started for some reason it would not hold it so all attempts to make it pretty was flying out the window.
It was only after I had finished and started to communicating with the rum gods I realised I should have put masking tape around the base to give me the tight fit so could have finished it as intended:doh:
113259

113260

113261

113262

113263
The timber is Salmon gum and it was finished with EEE and Shellawax

[kdm]

Good job - it is overcoming the problems and getting a result that is the fun (?!) of it.

Are the sides of the recess in the lid parallel? If they go in a bit towards the top of the lid that makes it difficult to get a jam fit and also hard for the chuck to hold on.

[tea lady]

Maybe the second box always goes like that so we don't get to cocky.:C I did a third yesterday, and it went OK. :2tsup: (Only one frisbee incident.:rolleyes: ) The other day I though the neighbours might come over to see if I was OK. Although maybe all the swearing would have kept them out. :doh: Tall boxes seem harder to keep in the jam chuck. To much leverage I guess. :think:

[Sawdust Maker]

Don't ya just hate it when all the bad planets line up, In your case the sherry gods must have been in the ascendency :o

You should have left some of the scrapes and dents in the piece and sold it on ebay as an antique :doh:

[Ed Reiss]

Hey RP, next time don't forget to bless the blank first by sprinkling a wee bit of rum on it...then things will go swimmingly :2tsup::D

for all the problems it came out well and that Salmon gum is nice lookin' :U

[jefferson]

Rum Pig,

I'm sorry you had problems with Box No. 2.

A couple of suggestions:

- when you jam-fit the lid onto the base, use tail-stick support until the final finish cuts. And when you do, take it easy! Tape always helps and try to keep the final fit for the lid until last. That way, your jam chuck should hold.

- as an alternative, use the nylon jaws. $25 a set while you're learning isn't a bad investment. (Some of the masters here discourage their use, but it only takes a fraction for a jam-chuck fit to be .1mm out.)

- the walls on the base remain too thick. A 2mm or less flange is more than enough to seat the lid into. (I think you have it the other way around). I've done it myself!:(

- your hollowing techique is Raffan-style, not the Ken W method (I think??) What are you using to hollow the end grain? Ken W suggests a long and strong spindle gouge, either with or without a depth hold bored with a drill bit.

As you say, stick with the basics. You're doing so very well thus far - and I suspect you haven't got the expert support that others like Tea Lady and myself have had.

And what sort of tools are you using? Especially when you fit the lid. This is a contentious area, as many turners do it several different ways. Are the tools sharp? And how to you check for parallel?

Sing out if you have any more problems. Too many of my first 30 odd little bowls and boxes flew out of the chuck all too frequently - and that takes all the pleasure out of it. ( always tells me to analyse when something goes wrong. It's good advice.)

Keep them coming. I have a passion for little boxes, both the arty and practical ones. And there is so much to learn.... Just check out Andy's box (and the mistakes he purportedly made). This is a long journey, I just hope you enjoy it.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Another option would've been to make a small, jam-fit "cap" to go over the knob.

Then you could've fitted the lid to the box and brought up some tailstock support.

All in all, though, it's a success. :) With more lessons learned.

(BTW, get used to 'em not turning out exactly as you'd hoped... it's only the Ken's & Robbos of this world who can manage that. And I'm sure that even they have their bad days. :;)

[KenW]

Rum Pig,

I'm sorry you had problems with Box No. 2.

A couple of suggestions:

- when you jam-fit the lid onto the base, use tail-stick support until the final finish cuts. And when you do, take it easy! Tape always helps and try to keep the final fit for the lid until last. That way, your jam chuck should hold.

- as an alternative, use the nylon jaws. $25 a set while you're learning isn't a bad investment. (Some of the masters here discourage their use, but it only takes a fraction for a jam-chuck fit to be .1mm out.)

- the walls on the base remain too thick. A 2mm or less flange is more than enough to seat the lid into. (I think you have it the other way around). I've done it myself!:(

- your hollowing techique is Raffan-style, not the Ken W method (I think??) What are you using to hollow the end grain? Ken W suggests a long and strong spindle gouge, either with or without a depth hold bored with a drill bit.

As you say, stick with the basics. You're doing so very well thus far - and I suspect you haven't got the expert support that others like Tea Lady and myself have had.

And what sort of tools are you using? Especially when you fit the lid. This is a contentious area, as many turners do it several different ways. Are the tools sharp? And how to you check for parallel?

Sing out if you have any more problems. Too many of my first 30 odd little bowls and boxes flew out of the chuck all too frequently - and that takes all the pleasure out of it. ( always tells me to analyse when something goes wrong. It's good advice.)

Keep them coming. I have a passion for little boxes, both the arty and practical ones. And there is so much to learn.... Just check out Andy's box (and the mistakes he purportedly made). This is a long journey, I just hope you enjoy it.
The grasshopper gives advice.
I always drill a depth hole, it serves two purposes.
First it tells me wen to stop hollowing, second it gives me a place to start the hollowing cut.
Hollowing boxes the way Richard Raffan describes, only works in soft timber. His method is cutting against the grain, doing things the hard way.
A spindle gouge cutting from the centre out, gives a better finish and never catches.

Rum Pig your box looks good, regardless of how you hollowed it.

[jefferson]

The grasshopper gives advice.
I always drill a depth hole, it serves two purposes.
First it tells me wen to stop hollowing, second it gives me a place to start the hollowing cut.
Hollowing boxes the way Richard Raffan describes, only works in soft timber. His method is cutting against the grain, doing things the hard way.
A spindle gouge cutting from the centre out, gives a better finish and never catches.

Rum Pig your box looks good, regardless of how you hollowed it.

Oh, the Master is back from his little sojourn to SATURN and is finally giving some advice. :rolleyes: Welcome back and how's the liver?

I disagree with you about the necessity to drill a depth hole. That might be OK if your head and tail-stocks align, but what if they do not? I know that on my little Delta, where the beast is maybe 2mm out, drilling is almost counter-productive. Way too much chatter, at least at the start of the cut.

Maybe I'm getting better, but I much prefer now to stick the L & S gouge (taped for the depth of course) - and then know that I am always on centre with the head stock. My MTBW, Ken W, but no doubt you will an answer for us.

Not all of us own 3 (or is it 4) Stubbies? :(

[mick61]

G`day Jefferson there are many ways to set the depth hole

Using Jacobs chuck and drill bit

Spindle gouge plunged straight into center of timber

A drill bit glued into handle then use above method i.e Plunge

Drill bit held in good quality vice grips

P.S for last method do not use an extra long drill bit only a standard length it can be dangerous DAMHIKT.:oo:
Mick:D

[jefferson]

Mick,

I shouldn't be too hard on Ken W. He can turn a little, just a little. Well, maybe a lot. (Don't know what anyone else thinks though...... :D)

And he only teaches truly "safe" procedures. So he's probably right about using the tail stock to drill. (But my point remains, not everyone turns on a Stubby or a Vic. )

End grain hollowing gave me no end of problems until Ken showed me how to use the L & S - and I'm getting fairly quick at it now. Minimal end-grain tear-out, which is why I like his method so much. And safe as houses, so long as you withdraw the gouge and don't stick it into the end grain. So I don't drill much anymore.

The bugger has gone guiet. Probably off to bed. I know he doesn't run the lathe at night, as the dusty makes too much noise..

[jefferson]

(BTW, get used to 'em not turning out exactly as you'd hoped... it's only the Ken's & Robbos of this world who can manage that. And I'm sure that even they have their bad days. :;)

Andy, I've got a DVD copy of Ken W doing a demo down at the Peninsula turners.... Yes, I have watched it a few times. And will do so again and again - the best DVD I have in my collection.

It all gives me much pleasure. Especially the part when Ken W had a massive catch! :D:D:D

Yep, I reckon even the Masters have bad days or a moment. Thank God for that.

[kdm]

Hollowing boxes the way Richard Raffan describes, only works in soft timber. His method is cutting against the grain, doing things the hard way.
A spindle gouge cutting from the centre out, gives a better finish and never catches.


Do you mean the method Richard Raffan describes which is much like hollowing a bowl (from outside to centre)? His other (and to me at this stage impossible looking) method has a spindle gouge cutting from the centre out but in the upper right quadrant of the piece - apart from that as far as I can see the cutting action is the same as the method you describe but I may well be missing something!

[KenW]

Do you mean the method Richard Raffan describes which is much like hollowing a bowl (from outside to centre)? His other (and to me at this stage impossible looking) method has a spindle gouge cutting from the centre out but in the upper right quadrant of the piece - apart from that as far as I can see the cutting action is the same as the method you describe but I may well be missing something!
Richard describes hollowing end grain just like a bowl. As I said this is against the grain and only works in soft wood. To hollow end grain (with the grain) you cut from the centre to the outside. I use a 10mm spindle gouge with a fairly long side grind.
The other cut you mentioned is best performed with a bowl gouge (shorter bevel).
This cut is not much use on boxes deeper than 50mm. The other problem, you need to exit the cut at precisely the right spot or you will loose bevel rub and catch. The right spot is ten past twelve, if you picture a clock on the end of your box.
I never use this cut as it has limited uses.

[kdm]

Thanks Ken. I'm using the method you describe except with an Oland tool. I should try again with a spindle gouge sometime - my early attempts got a bit out of control at any depth so I made an Oland tool.

[Rum Pig]

Sorry I have not responded but my 2yr old son hurt his arm and demanded more daddy time than normal.



Rum Pig,

I'm sorry you had problems with Box No. 2.

A couple of suggestions:

- when you jam-fit the lid onto the base, use tail-stick support until the final finish cuts. And when you do, take it easy! Tape always helps and try to keep the final fit for the lid until last. That way, your jam chuck should hold. When I brought the tail stock up to the lid it would not line up with the impression made when turning between centers so it kept bowing the box slightly but enough for me to notice. I tried to remove the dimple but that is when the Frisbee practice started.

- as an alternative, use the nylon jaws. $25 a set while you're learning isn't a bad investment. (Some of the masters here discourage their use, but it only takes a fraction for a jam-chuck fit to be .1mm out.) Where do you buy them from

- the walls on the base remain too thick. A 2mm or less flange is more than enough to seat the lid into. (I think you have it the other way around). I've done it myself!:(I know the wall is still to thick but it is thinner than the first so I'm getting there but moer practice is needed:D

- your hollowing techique is Raffan-style, not the Ken W method (I think??) What are you using to hollow the end grain? Ken W suggests a long and strong spindle gouge, either with or without a depth hold bored with a drill bit. With this box I used a 10mm square parting tool it worked well. The first box I hollowed it with a bowl gouge and finished with scrapers but I think I like the parting tool better.

As you say, stick with the basics. You're doing so very well thus far - and I suspect you haven't got the expert support that others like Tea Lady and myself have had. I have a expert by the name of Ian to call on but I was trying to work through this challenge by myself and the help of people on this forum like you

And what sort of tools are you using? Especially when you fit the lid. This is a contentious area, as many turners do it several different ways. Are the tools sharp? And how to you check for parallel? The tools are sharp and I check for parallel by using spring calipers like in Raffan's DVD. As for the tools I use well it is a case of what ever I have and I think will do the job but for this box it was mainly bowl and spindal gouge and skew chisel.

Sing out if you have any more problems. Too many of my first 30 odd little bowls and boxes flew out of the chuck all too frequently - and that takes all the pleasure out of it. ( always tells me to analyse when something goes wrong. It's good advice.) I will do thank you and it sound like good advice to me.

Keep them coming. I have a passion for little boxes, both the arty and practical ones. And there is so much to learn.... Just check out Andy's box (and the mistakes he purportedly made). This is a long journey, I just hope you enjoy it.Yes I'm starting to develop a addiction to making box's so you should see a lot more coming from the rum factory
Thank you to every one for your supportive words

[Ed Reiss]

Hey RP...hope your shorty gets well soon:U

[jefferson]

Sorry I have not responded but my 2yr old son hurt his arm and demanded more daddy time than normal.



Thank you to every one for your supportive words

Rum Pig, sorry but I don't know how to reply to all your comments. (You obviously know more about responding to quotes than I do!:p)

So, I hope I don't miss anything....

The nylon jaws I referred to are for Vicmark jaws - check with Jim Carroll. I like them, though my masters do not.

As for hollowing end-grain boxes, I assure you that the Ken W method is the best. I've tried the Raffan approaches (both!), pre-drilling then using scrapers (including my Ci1 Rougher), bowl gouges etc. But Ken's method using a L & S detail / spindle gouge is almost completely safe and very, very fast when you gain some confidence with it.

I posted somewhere on how WWW (Wraight, Weird and Wonderful) does it, but can't find it.

So if I summarise quickly:

- pre-drill a depth hole using tailstock and drill bit (I don't do this anymore, but WWW won't teach anything that's not safe. I simply mark the spindle gouge for depth and shove it in).
- with your lathe running fast, gouge flute tilted at 45 degrees facing you, pull from the centre hole to the outside
- take 1-2mm passes (and more when you get confident)
- when you near the side grain, push the handle away from you. If you don't, the hollow will match the bevel angle on your chisel
- when you hit the side grain, you'll notice immediately the difference in the cut.

The main benefits in this approach are:

- if you slightly under-cut from the middle, the end grain is always supported, giving a much superior finish off the tool
- thus you scrape and sand less
- it's fast. (Slow at first until you get cocky).

What else did I miss?

But don't listen to me - I'm an absolute novice and I hate Rum.

[Rum Pig]

Thanks for that info Jeff:)
Does Ken w have a DVD on his method of box making?

I think I understand the technique you are describing so I will give it a go. How does it work on hard wood ( I mean hard like iron wood)?

One thing I learnt teaching apprentices is that not every one is suited to one technique so I always try as many way to do something as possible.

I do not know if I should say that I feel sorry for you or not but I guess if everyone liked gods nectar there would be less rum for me:U

[kdm]

I think this video on YouTube by bobham5 is the same technique except he doesn't drill a hole first:
YouTube - End grain hollowing with a 1/2" spindle gouge

[Rum Pig]

Thanks for the link Keith
I can't watch u-tube at work so I will have a look at home but I'm only on dial up there so I do not know if it works. If does not work I will let you know.

[kdm]

Same technique is also on Mike Darlow's DVDs.

[KenW]

The link shows the cut well. I mainly hollow very hard wood, so my spindle gouge has a much smaller piont. This allows me to take much smaller cuts. When hollowing hard wood, avoid cutting the side grain of the box with the long cutting edge. Only use the first couple of mm of the tip.