Eureka Canoe

[bitingmidge]

(There is an index for this monster thread that Biting Midge was kicking off here - it is just down this page or you can click here (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=177488#post177488)
And the Peter's Eureka Canoe website (http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/eureka/) is here with more detail. Also the Eureka is a simple to build conventional canoe. I did do an experiment with something crazy simple - the Quick Canoe - the discussion is here http://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/disposable-canoeing-very-simple-ply-canoe-building-pics-109997/ If you are after a "proper" canoe then the Eureka might suit your needs, but if you want a really simple to build fun canoe that still works the Quick Canoe)
BOATMIK)

The boat bit of this forum is curious...lots of visits but few posts!

After promising him for about three years that I'd prototype the panel development for him, Adelaide based designer Michael Storer has finally given up and pai a visit! Soooo after spending most of yesterday sailing my Goat Island Skiff in the Mooloola River, we got to in the shed and built a quarter of a canoe!!

The Eureka 5 (I think that's it's current name) will be the new version of the 16 foot version of Michael's 12 foot Eureka Canoe, and I have to say it looks pretty darned good!!

Basically it's a very simple to build five-panel/two sheets of plywood 16 footer, and as usual Michael has been able to squeeze maximum "bang for your buck" out of a very simple construction method. It will be built using the stitch and tape method with no frames required (those shown are just to hold up our prototype while we mucked around tuning the panels) and should be very quick and easy to build.(Which is just as well, because I have a very short attention span!!)

The compound curves on the bow/stern section are both pretty and provide plenty of stiffness to the structure.

Pictures show:-

1) Storer looking as perplexed as all do when watching me work; a very rare site indeed, and judging by the expression I am about to cut something.
2)Front/rear view -note that the stem will be only two sheets of ply thick, the photo shows a temporary form as well as the hull panel.
3) Side elevation- well one half anyway, but we know the panels fit really nicely now. (being leant on by yours truly. Note dust extraction ducting on the floor rather than connected to machinery!!! (sigh!).

I hope to finish the real one by Christmas (!) and probably will get it done before the dust extraction system at the rate that is happening!

For further information, email Michael direct at the address shown on the pic, PM me...or watch this space for progress!

Cheers,

P
Building boats again and happy!
:D :D :D

[Christopha]

Looks good, I shall continue to "watch this space"...........................

[Wild Dingo]

ahah!!! the half a canoe! not a wonder hes lookin like a startled mullet :D

Didnt he mention that you are meant to have a whole canoe mate?... eeerr remember water? that wet stuff that the canoe is meant to keep out? well you better get the bum end done!!

Actually lookin good! :cool: Ive been giving some serious thought to a ply panel canoe again {I built a 6 hour canoe a year ago} since these strippers like the ones Ive been muckin with for the last year and getting utterly frustrated with time and again... so maybe its time I got stuck in and built one of these things

Ahem! I shall build the whole canoe unlike someone we know who likes to build HALF a canoe and think he can get away with it :rolleyes: :D

Good on yer mate! :cool:

[Caliban]

Midge
I got halfway through building a boat once too.

[bitingmidge]

I got halfway through building a boat once too.
Only once? :D :D

That's why I don't start big ones! Once a boat gets to the point where it takes up space it becomes a project (see other threads on the difference!) rather than a hobby. They are too big to make excuses for!

My two foot skiff replica is the exception though - took seven years, but it always was at an "interesting" stage. The planked hull hung over my drawing board for a couple of them...

I was going to get into the Eureka in October, but daughter #3 has announced her engagement, so it looks like wedding plans and girly stuff may prevail once again.

We'll see!!

Cheers,

P

[barnsey]

Just to make things curiouser and curiouser - The only canoe I seem to be able to make takes micro seconds and is made of barbed wire up the proverbial creek :o

Let me know if you need help :D

Jamie

[bitingmidge]

Just to make things curiouser and curiouser - The only canoe I seem to be able to make takes micro seconds and is made of barbed wire up the proverbial creek :o

I've already had a crack at that one a few times, best thing about it is you don't need to make a paddle!

:D :D :D

P

[bitingmidge]

Well there's swags of Eureka news, but none of it involves me starting.

Well actually I have indeed taken the mold apart and am sort of ready to start, and no girls planning to marry, so it's looking a bit promising for a start in Septemberish..... but...

Storer's got a Eureka page on his website Michael Storer Design (http://www.storerboatplans.com/Eureka/Eurekacanoes.html) with some pics of a finished 13 footer and a copy of his article in the current Australian Amateur Boatbuilder.

Maybe some of you blokes should get a set of plans and we can have a UBeaut canoe build-off??

Cheers,

P

[Dan]

Maybe some of you blokes should get a set of plans and we can have a UBeaut canoe build-off??

How would you rate your chances of winning such a contest? :rolleyes: :D

[Daddles]

He'd have no show Dan. As the photos show, he can only build the front bit :D

Richard

[bitingmidge]

You blokes are sooooo cruel!

I reckon if there was a contest on, I'd be up there on the podium!

Machismo is a wonderful thing!

P
:D

[Daddles]

Machismo is a wonderful thing!


Is he the bloke you've hired to build the back half :confused:

Richard

[Boatmik]

Midge, Once you build the other half can you tell me which one is easier to build - I can then recommend that everyone starts with that one.

Boatmik - still looking perplexed

INDEX FOR THIS MONSTER EUREKA THREAD - MILESTONES

Marking out the plywood and cutting (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=222334#post222334)
Joining up the Prefabricated panels and starting stitching (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=227416#post227416)
Filleting on the inside of the Eureka Canoethe tidy way (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=230345#post230345)
Marking out the canoe bulkheads (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=233529#post233529)
Getting ready to put the decks in place - I feel Peter's pain and change the plans (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=236674#post236674)
Doing Peter's neat curved end inwale spacers - very cool Mr H. (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=239237#post239237)
Free Paddle Plans Link (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=241023#post241023)
Storer proves that he is a lazy boatbuilder - but maybe gets it wrong about using glass tape on the inside - people seem to like using fillets (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=241023#post241023)
Playing with seats - we end up moving them around 2.5 to 3" higher later on advice from more experienced canoeists (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=244476#post244476)
Doug's Eureka and the beginning of the stability controversy and his boat weighs in at 56 lbs. - 25.4 kg (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=255986#post255986) - when the designer realises that there is not enough control over the width of the boat. So another plan change to prevent the boat becoming narrower than designed. Simple change but needed big help from Doug - Cheers!!!
Peter's boat - inwale spacers, inwales and his very cool plywood seats (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=257553#post257553)
Peter tidying up his deck structure and centrespreader (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=259944#post259944)
Doug muscles his boat to the correct width. (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=261399#post261399) Not necessary anymore because I corrected the plans in Feb 2006
Peter finally sets up for the end decks (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=264701#post264701) - and Michael changes the plan to include a centre stringer in the plan to make it easier for everyone else too.
Coating and glassing the bottom (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=264701#post264701)
Peter's boat is rushed into the water to check that the stability problem is resolved (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=272848#post272848) (later two experienced builders of canoes declare the corrected Eureka to be "stable enough to move around in"
Beginning of a Paddle discussion about the free paddle plans (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=301819#post301819)
Woodzzzy launches his Eureka - we didn't know about it - coool! - 23kg (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=321663#post321663)
Clare and Peters "all out" lightweight Eureka (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=380198#post380198), thin ply thin glass, paulownia trim and beaut string seats - 15kg (36lbs)
Walesey buys the plans (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=477833#post477833) so his two boys and grandpa can build a Eureka
Walesey posts first pics EVER of the paddles from the Free Plan (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=511159#post511159)
Another Eureka Plywood Canoe is launched (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=514471#post514471) - Peter McKenzie
AJ's Gorgeous light paddles from the free plan (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=531279#post531279)
The Blue Eureka built on Bribie Island (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=554540#post554540)
Budwana buys the plans and tracks down building materials for the canoe (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=611801#post611801)
Walesey's boat looking rather schmick fully coated with epoxy (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=622784#post622784)
Moose in the USA starts his Eureka (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=632569#post632569)
Walesey's boys fit the end decks and a lot more in the following days (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=633707#post633707)
The boys fit the gunwales - nice work!!!! (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=640086#post640086)
Eureka Launch (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=648462#post648462) - Walesey and the boys drop the boat in Jervis Bay - video down the page a little
Biting Midge (Peter) strikes a blow (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=654950#post654950), being inspired by Walesey and the video - Nice pics Midge! Transitioning the gunwales into the deck.
Eureka in 3 weeks? (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=656251#post656251) PhilW starts his very fast build
Midge raises his seats and shows off his template for making those cool slots in the seats!!! (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=656740#post656740)
How to get the end decks on (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=661675#post661675) - Midge shows pics so PhilW can see how
Emerald Pete completes the canoe started at the Duckflat Boatbuilding School (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=661947#post661947) - looks nice in RED
NCArcher starts his Eureka in Newcastle (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=671674#post671674)
VIDEO - PhilW launches his Eureka Canoe at Biting Midges - Michael Storer goes for a paddle in a finished Eureka (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=672374#post672374) - IT GOES!!!!
Slovenia Koala's great Eureka Canoe Build (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=680687#post680687)
Slovenia Koala's fits and ACA sailing rig - if you plan to do this speak to me for some small changes to the boat. (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=756072#post756072)

[bitingmidge]

OR....

Maybe I could just build the front half, add a transom and call it a rowboat???

Time for rowboat thread chaps???

;)
P

[Boatmik]

Howdy Midge - thanks for sending the panel layouts - I finally managed to get the step by step plan together.

It looks great too because of the illustrations we had on hand from the smaller boat.

So anyway if you go to http://www.storerboatplans.com/Eureka/Eurekacanoes.html (http://www.ozemail.com.au/storerm) you will find some pics, materials lists and articles about the boat.

Thanks for your help Midge

Boatmik

[JEM]

My first post here.

Nice looking canoe. Silly question: Is that a square stern or simply just one have?

[bitingmidge]

JEM, Welcome!

No it's a double ender! Just one half built for the prototype because it's completely symetrical.

Check out Michael Storer's website: http://www.storerboatplans.com/Eureka/Eurekacanoes.html for more information!

Cheers,

P

[Daddles]

Rats. I saw Midge's name and hoped he was posting news of progress :rolleyes:

Richard :D

[bitingmidge]

Maybe Sunday, since the Rowboat plans aren't ready yet!


P
:D :D :D

[MajorPanic]

Maybe I could just build the front half, add a transom and call it a rowboat???


How many times do I have to tell ya!!!!

Simple solution is:

http://www.majorpanic.com/images/woodwork/BB/Adams10.jpg

[bitingmidge]

News on the Eureka front!!

I started to set out the real thing on Sunday, then discovered in the three years since I set out the prototype panels (oops!), I had misplace the panel setout drawing, or maybe Michael had just repossessed it it when we did the mock-up!

Anyways, he emailed me a new one, and I set about doing stuff. Pics are two different batches, because I didn't need to use the long fairing batten, and I had a photo from three years ago!

Marking out is really simple, just set out a grid at 300mm intervals along the sheet, and a centre line lengthwise. Mark all the panels to Michael's dimensions on those gridlines, and join the dots.

I used panel pins to mark the dots, and a 19 x19 oregon fairing batten held against the pins by part of my collection of blunt objects.

For the tighter curves, I have a selection of skinny battens which are really timber venetian blinds, and they need to be held in place by hand. This takes two people usually, which explains why my hand looks a bit like it's working harder than it likes while my other hand takes the photo!

Oops! No way to attach photos yet! Another day, another post!

Cheers,

P

[bitingmidge]

So I've got a real head of steam up now!!

I'm pretty good at marking stuff out, but not so good at cutting, so I keep a mm or two (or three or four) away from the line. I do tend to use a thick felt pen in this situation, and try not to hit it when cutting! :eek:

This time I have had a bit of a revelation, because I've got this swag of LV LA planes in my kit now, and the LA Smoother and LA Block with the razor sharp blades (thanks MathewA) are such a pleasure to use on the edge of the ply that I want to just cut anywhere and plane it all back!

This is one of those jobs where a cheap jigsaw is more than good enough, mine cost $20 ten years ago, and the equivalent would be $15 now.

So, I've now cut out the first two panels and used them as a template to mark the others, only one set out mistake so far (fixed!) :eek: , when I just slapped down the bottom panel template I made for the trial fit, and didn't bother to check where on the sheet of ply it was. Don't do this, there is about 15mm of tolerance before you don't have enough room to cut all the panels out of two sheets!

I don't know why it's not obvious to a novice, but it's not;- so use the first bits as a template for the rest, and don't spend forever setting out!

Cheers,

P:D

[bitingmidge]

You know that head of steam I had up a week ago?

Well typically, things got in the way (as they always do), I ended up on the road for four out of the last seven days, and that's not an easy way of building a canoe!

So here's the pics I couldn't post last week, and today's update:
1) Using a cheap jigsaw! :rolleyes:
2) Two panels finally trimmed, being used as a template to setout the rest
3) Butt joints: This is a bit of an experiment. In the past I've held the joints together with packaging tape on the outside, and lifted the "hinge" to separate the join a bit to jam some glue in, before gluing butt straps over the top.

This time, because of the thin ply (4mm) I've chamfered the join, which allows (I hope!) a tighter butt on the outside face. I've filled the join with glue while gluing the butt straps, and this also gives a slightly larger gluing surface area. Seems to be fine so far!

4) Outside of the joint taped with packaging tape. This keeps the joint tight while the butt strap is being glued on, and saves all manner of juggling with moving bits while getting everything in place.

If you are lucky, you'll see a couple of dings in the ply :mad: . I had swept the floor, then put plastic down, then forgot about everything and SAT on the ply while sanding it, to keep it from sliding everywhere. Unfortunately a few imperfections (grainy bits) in the concrete managed to bruise the timber in all manner of places.

I'll give it a go with a steam iron later, then see how I feel about it. Might end up painting the thing yet!

5) The panels all glued together. Currently they have their first coat of epoxy on what will be the inside, and I'm off to the shops while it goes off enough to give it the next coat!

cheers,

P

[Daddles]

Eureka!

He's working on it:eek: :rolleyes:

Richard

[bitingmidge]

Thought I'd better do something.

There are 1,439 disappointed viewers of this thread so far!

P (Waiting for the epoxy to dry!)
:D :D :D

[bitingmidge]

Update!

Pics show:
1) Butt strap finished, glued and bevelled. About now I got this bright idea to bevel all the panels so I'd end up with a lovely tight external joint, and as I thought I'd have a crack at clear finishing the boat, this would be a nice thing to do.

The seams will look fantastically neat inside as well.

More on that later! :eek:

2) Sanding the epoxy coating. OK so everyone's seen a ROS (Random Orbital Sander) before, but the pic is to remind all that epoxy dust, especially when green, is not good to breath. Throw away the dinky little dust bag on your sander and use a bit of gaffer tape to connect it to the ShopVac (or house Vac!). You'll be amazed at how clean the whole operation becomes.

3) Stitching begins, here are the first three panels getting sorted.

4) Overview of the boat. (Sorry the pics a shocker, will try again next weekend!)

5) Another view of the stitching almost done...almost because :o :o well read the next post! In the meantime, it was pretty good almost no twist eetc etc, so the practise can't have hurt!

Cheers,

P

[bitingmidge]

Righto! Confession time!

You'd think that after prototyping the panels, yours truly would know better, but a true idiot can never find his limit, even on a simple stitch and tape canoe!

There is a gap you see...well four really, one each side of the identical bow/stern panels.

Here was I getting all tricky, and making a really nice neat join on the outside by bevelling the panels. I had completely overlooked the fact that the boat had been designed and dimensioned for all panels to meet on the INSIDE,

End result, on the particularly convoluted front/back bit, a 4-5mm gap. It looks like 10 or 12, but it is only 4 or 5.

Michael laughed, admonished me suitably for taking too much time to build the thing, after all each day building is a day less on the water.... but I still like the building process!

All I need to do is pull it all apart, scribe the new line, bevel it all again and stitch it back together. Shame that this was our last free weekend for a bit!

But them's the joys of boat building!

cheers,

P
:D :D :D

[bitingmidge]

What a difference a day makes!

Thought about it all night (Not!) then remembered two of the essential ingredients for projects like these: Brute strength and Ignorance.

Well there's plenty of the latter round here, but we're a bit short on the former, so made do with what was lying round.

Another call to Michael to reassure him it was MY 4mm error :eek: and off to work with the trusty (and now very blunt) block plane.

A few minutes to lop off a small 4" x 4mm (to mix my metaphores - ah well the Seppos'll understand half of what's going on! :D :D and a few more lengths of wire, and we have a fit!! That's the interesting thing about stitch and tape construction, there's a fair bit of leeway for error, yet the when the panels fit perfectly, the boat forms a usable or even better(!) hull shape

Pity we've got guests arriving in half an hour, or I'd be sticking in the first fillets tonight!

Cheers,

P:D

[bennylaird]

Take a bow? She's looking good mate. Have to give one a go.

[bennylaird]

Does the fibreglass tape only go in the inside? If so any joint gap showing on the outside is filled with epoxy? Or am I off track?

[bitingmidge]

No, you are almost right!

Typically the fibreglass tape goes on both sides, and the gaps are filled with bog before hand. Nothing could be simpler. The ply meets perfectly on the inside, and the little vee joints get filled on the outside before glassing.

Using the BoatCote epoxy system, the filler is almost timber colour and barely visible.

In the "don't try this at home folks" mode, I decided to attempt a perfect-on-the-outside joint, and will get a heap of epoxy filleting practice on the inside. Of course that's why Michael in particular is laughing, I've turned a simple process into a not so simple one!

Of course time will show that I could have achieved the same result in half the time, but then I'd have to go paddling!

Michael does provide a comprehensively illustrated set of instructions with the plans , and I've taken to reading them retrospectively, (after I've completed each stage!)
http://www.storerboatplans.com (http://members.ozemail.com.au/%7Estorerm/)
Cheers,

P
:D :D

[bennylaird]

Instructions???? Are you supposed to read them? I usually just file them with the reciept and warranty!

They are good later to find out why your project has no resemblence to the original...............

[Dan]

I understand what you were doing by bevelling the edges of the sheets to get a tight join, but I don't quite understand how you would get a nice straight chine by leaving the edges of the sheets square (like you're meant to). I'm just picturing in my mind the two sheets always wanting to either slip inside or outside of each other instead of meeting each other on their corners. Does this make sense?

[bitingmidge]

Dan,

It's not as hard as it seems. The timber obviously crushes a little on the meeting corners, but because one is tightening each stitch in a controlled way it's very easy to control, and align progressively.

I've made it even harder because I have effectively got a knife-edge to meet for all the places where the angle is greater than 90° (which is everywhere really!), but even so the alignment isn't that hard.

Any misalignment in a normal construction would be taken up with an epoxy fillet before glassing in any case.

If that's not clear, please respond!

Cheers,

P

[bitingmidge]

Friday night and no chance of being home long enough to do anything on the weekend! :(

Here's an update:
The "sewing" is now complete, and the temporary spreaders in place.

I've clamped a couple of temporary gunwhales in place as well, and wish I still lived near my mate with the other thirty clamps! When we had 60 between us it was quite civilised really.

The boat has about 4 or 5mm of twist at the moment, and that's about as good as I can get it without applying any "persuasion". I've shimmed it a bit but may have to clamp it while epoxying. There's still quite a lot of "floppyness" so we'll see how it all works out!

I'm hoping to use packaging tape over the outside of the seams, but that will be a cow of a job, 200 stitches means 200 bits of tape between them I guess!

I'll press down the stitches into the ply tomorrow before we go, and maybe mask the seams ready for some nice neat fillets (if I can remember how to do that!).

In the meantime, this is a bit what one imagine's Frankenstein's boat might have looked like!
Cheers,

P

[Daddles]

Hey Peter, isn't the ballast supposed to go in the bottom of the boat? And with it sitting up there on the gunwales like that, isn't it going to get in they way?:D

With the stitching, just push them flat and tape over the top of them. You've got good joints there so not much epoxy is going to come through anyway.

Richard

[bitingmidge]

You've got good joints there so not much epoxy is going to come through anyway.
Good?

They're PERFECT!! ;)

But the 4mm ply does deflect a little, so the tape will just add a bit of insurance during the filleting process.

Did I mention that I've decided to fillet the inside instead of glassing?? :eek: :eek:

Cheers,
P (Taking a simple concept and making it hard!)
:D :D

[Daddles]

Ahh, stitch and poo - you fillet AND glass. Dat's da vay hit his dun :confused:

Richard

rats, not enough bundy in the bottle get ratted:(

[Wongo]

Nice work P.

[bitingmidge]

Bummer! Well there's always something goes wrong isn't there!

Friday night, I masked the inside to get the fillets all neat. Some would consider masking fillets a bit on the pedantic side, but I find it's a lot lot easier to spend the time masking than cleaning them up later.

Anyway, all done, flip the boat over and tape the seams where leaks are likely, then leave it till maybe Sunday afternoon when we get back from another hectic round of social engagements.

This morning: well the 19 x 19 pine I used as a temporary gunwhale decided that one of it's finger joints had had enough! So today instead of getting the inside fillets done, it was pull off the temp gunwhales, and scarf the broken one back together. You get that!

Pic 1 shows masking process: I stick a bit of masking tape down to use as a guide, then mask to it. Seems cumbersome, but it gives nice parallel lines with the minimum of fuss.

Other pics show how a small break in a straight edge will really upset a nice fair curve!



Cheers,

P:D

[Daddles]

Permission granted to swear Midge. :D

Richard

and I thought I made hard work of building boats :D

[Slavo]

Midge, when you glass the canoe are you going to use peel ply & a roller or coat and squeegee

[bitingmidge]

Midge, when you glass the canoe are you going to use peel ply & a roller or coat and squeegee

I've never seen peel ply used without a full vac bag system? My understanding of it's use is that it is designed to apply pressure to the laminate, so that excess resin is squeezed through it and evacuated from the layup to get the optimum resin mix, in relatively high tech composites. I have used it in carbon/kevlar/s-glass over foam layups, but wouldn't have thought it worth it at this scale, (I'm not building a world - championship kayak here, so the extra 50 grams probably won't kill me).

If anyone can cast light on peel ply on a non-vac situation, please do so!

The boat WILL be light though, and I'll use a foam roller, a disposable brush, and an old credit card as a squeegee. My gloved hand will also probably figure in there, so the chances of getting a decent photo are not great!

cheers,

P

[Slavo]

I read somewhere of a guy using peel ply and a roller to press it down, leaving a smooth finish. I'll see if I can find the references.

[graemet]

Hi Midge!
I used peel ply on my trailer sailer when glassing the outside of the planking. By pushing the stuff down into the layup with a grooved roller, you get an even resin layup with all the bumps and dribbles of excess epoxy on the outside as well as the waxy bloom that forms when there is any humidity. Then, when you are ready to fair it off, rip it off, taking all the unevenness with it. It saves loads of time, costs a bit but worth every cent!
Cheers,
Graeme

[bitingmidge]

Thanks Graeme, I'll look into it! (which is probably code for I'm too lazy to do anything....) :D

Started filleting tonight, but have to leave soon so almost have it half done.

Not back till Friday night so I hope I can get the balance done then.

The pictures show why I cop the rubbishing from all those macho boatbuilding types for masking off. Filleting is just another one of those jobs that I've never been very good at.

Well I've been really really messy, and I'd rather spend an hour masking all the joints than three hours sanding off the crud. You can see from the pics how much is normally left, but I usually make the brew a little sloppier than most, try to keep the mess on the tape, then peel it all off before the epoxy's gone off.

I wish it wasn't too early in the job to be pleased with it, but with one and a half seams done, they're tidy enough!
Cheers,

P
:D :D

[Slavo]

G'day Midge,
I read about using peel ply from the kayak building forum run by Nick Schade. One of the threads is http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Building/index.cgi/frames/read/114628

A couple of other threads talk about using a thick plastic film

Basically you lay down the glass and epoxy, cover with plastic film and roller off the excess. The film keeps the glass from floating off the wood and reduces the telegraphing of the weave on the surface

Both techniques look like they would work on the inside of a S&G canoe/kayak and other have mixed success with the outside as there is a bit of technique for convex and compound curves.

[bitingmidge]

Thanks for that. I have read the whole thread, and there in the fine print on two posts are "it's best to use with a vacbag" and "if your squeegee technique is good it's hard to see the benefit".

I agree with both!

I think the only advantage it would give without a vac bag is that you would end up with a smooth surface. You'd potentially use a lot more resin though and therefore have a much more expensive and heavier project.

Having said that, if I ever do another foam boat, or lightweight layup for some reason, I'd vacbag first and think about peelply!

Thanks for the info.

cheers,

P

[bitingmidge]

A little more progress:

All the inside seams are filleted. Only some have been sanded which explains why some look white and some look dark in the photos!

Marking out for the bulkheads can be a bit tricky, particularly since I've changed the dimensions slightly because of those inside chamfers on the panels, so I set up a stringline from bow to stern to give me a point of reference.

I stuck a bit of tape on the stringline to mark the location of the bulkheads, then it was a pretty simple matter of checking for plumb and square using a framing square.

Bulkheads are masked and about to get filleted in, note that the fit isn't exactly joinery tight. It doesn't have to be, and at this stage it's better not to be accidentally putting a different shape into the hull. Bog will fix!

Cheers,

P

[bitingmidge]

.... and then of course it's the one step forward and two steps back!!

I filleted the first bulkhead, all fine.

Cleaned off the tape, looked great.

Then I accidentally knocked the bulkhead out of position :eek:. In the past I have used blocks and hot-melt to hold them in place while stooging around, but not this time.

The end result was a badly deformed fillet, with lots of slump and yuk!!

So, patiently :rolleyes: waiting until the epoxy was sort of dry to touch, but not firm, I worked it with wet fingers to get it back to some semblance of where it was supposed to be. Not perfect, but it will only need a bit of sanding to bring it to acceptable.

Pics show before and after fix-up.

......3 hours later......

It hasn't been a day for filleting. When I had a motorbike there were days when I took a bus, because I just got that feeling..... well today, I shouldn't have mixed a batch of epoxy!!

Four simple fillets, three of them stuffed up in some way or another!! Best was the other end, I decided to fill in time while the bog was going off, but sanding the seams. It seems that the harmonic motion was such that it moved the bulkhead by about 8mm at the base, I had only taped it to the temporary cross member!

Fortunately I found it in time, cut the green bog away with a Stanley knife and managed to rescue the situation. It's amazing how a simple one hour task can take all day!

Cheers,

P

[bitingmidge]

I hope to finish the real one by Christmas (!) and probably will get it done before the dust extraction system at the rate that is happening!

That's what I wrote in August 2004 in the first post in this thread!
:eek: :eek:

Well it still holds! I still hope to get it finished by Christmas (forlorn hope though that may be) and the dust extraction system won't be done till well after!!

I must stop making these rash promises!

cheers,

P (sanding fillets at the moment)

:D

[Daddles]

Ahh Midge, if ye had used the one pure poxy instead of that horrid abomination ye chose, ye would not be having this trouble.

Of course, I might just be bull####ting because the evil-ex has been evil tonight and I'm feeling frisky, but I wouldn't do that would I ... :D

Richard
thank god for girlfriends who know how to massage :D

[bitingmidge]

Nothing wrong with the poxy, just the bloke using it!

Soo yesterday I ripped down the gunwhale and inwhale planks (they aren't planks but that sounds sooo nautical doesn't it?), bought a new saw blade, fixed my bike, washed the cars, and made a template for the deck beam.

There isn't actually a deck beam in the plans, I just decided I'd like two of them to trim off the edge of the deck where it cantilevers over the bulkhead.

For a bloke with my incredible skill (none) and with a nice bandsaw in the corner of the shed, this shouldn't be any bother at all, despite the double-compound curve.

So I marked the first bit, made a nice curved cut, then the second cut, then the third, and all was looking good except the bandsaw started to bog in the 20 year old oregon (douglas fir). :eek: :eek: In the middle of it all was a pocket of fir resin, which proceeded to coat the blade and smear all over the piece... clearly I wasn't going to get any use out of that one!

Never mind, the practice was good. So I marked and cut the second, only to find that on final planing, I exposed a nail-hole I thought I'd missed and a shake appeared with a crack right across the piece!

Never mind, the practice was good, and I've got a nice template now. (Not that I need a template, but I have one anyway.)

Today, I'll do two more. (Or fifty at this rate!)

Pics show:
1) Shed setup for ripping down long lengths on the TS. Note "fences" clamped to router table and workbench - very handy things.

2) Gratuitous shot of my patternmaker's vice in action, with the lovely Veritas Spoke Shave doing it's own thing, while I go for a cup of tea.

3) Template in place! ;)

Cheers,

P

[bitingmidge]

A whole day and not much to show for it either! I'm hoping that something I did today will make things easier down the track... :rolleyes:

Cut the new deck beams and made them a lot lighter, since I am definitely of the "if it breaks it wasn't strong enough, if it doesn't break it's probably too heavy" school, and this was an addition to the plan... (150 grams each if you are wondering Mik!)

The photo doesn't show the really nifty rebate I cut, but the deck will finish flush with the top of the beam, and only 6mm of the beam will be visible at the end of the day.

I was getting round to pulling out the router to do the rebate, then I thought, "It's Sunday afternoon, and that's a bit anti-social, besides there might be a power cut or something and besides I'd have to build a special curved fence adn...." So I pulled out my Dad's trusty, Record 045 and gave the blade it's first sharpen in 40 years, fiddled and fussed and made a curved fence bit, and generally stooged around for a few hours, then cut a slot to create the rebate, finished it with a chisel and touched it up with one of the Veritas collection because I could.

That goes some way to explaining the lack of progress!

I did get to glue on the deck support "inwhales" and make a jig to cut the curvy bits on the inwhale spacers, but that's for the next post!

Cheers,

P:D

[bitingmidge]

There won't be any progress this week, I've been away on business, pranged a hirecar, been to a wedding and have Rupert the Pom coming to visit tomorrow on the Oz leg of his grand adventure.

So I thought I'd post a pic of my Inwhale Spacer cutting jig. For those that don't know about these things, the Gunwhale is a stick that glues on the top of the outside of the boat (a bit like a border really) which stiffens the outside edge.

An Inwhale does the same thing, except on the INside, which I imagine goes part of the way to explaining why it's called an Inwhale. The Inwhale SPACER as its name implies, spaces the inwhales off the hull a little bit, and that gives a slightly stiffer structure because of the beam action it creates, but more importantly, lets you tip water out without having to turn the whole boat upside down.

Really clever builders (like me) like to put a nice convex curve on each end of the spacers instead of cutting them square, and as there are 25 per side on this little boat, one could easily become tired of cutting them by hand with a fretsaw.

My solution, is to build a little jig out of MDF, to hold the blank timber, and cut the pieces to the radius of choice using a forstner bit. The MDF is glued with a blank bit clamped in tight so that it's a press fit, and no other clamping is needed.

In the photo, you should be able to spot my pencil marks for the lengths I need, and a spacer cut and sitting there ready to be levered out with a screw driver (I chisel a rebate in one end of the jig to make it easy to get the screw driver under the part.)

The second photo (the reddie-yellow one) is the same, it's just that I took it with the wrong white balance and thought it looked pretty cool!

Next progress is probably after Christmas now..... so have a great one and look in on Boxing Day!

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

[bitingmidge]

As an aside, Michael Storer (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~storerm/) has decided to issue his paddle plans as a free download from his website.

I suppose I should really start a new thread about canoe paddles. I haven't started building mine yet, well not for this boat anyway.

New thread it is!!

cheers,

P:D

[Boatmik]

Howdy Midge,

Thankyou hugely for both creating and keeping this thread updated. A valuable resource for people wanting to see how a Eureka goes together.

Looks good to me - and I even like most of the changes you have made!

The Eureka was drawn up to be a really simple boat to build - if I was building I would not be bothering about the "inwale spacer jig" but would be cutting them square - so I could get the boat under the Xmas tree at the end of the week!!!

But (and a very big BUT) all the mods make the boat reflect your interests and thinking. I am really excited by the fact that no two Eurekas will end up exactly the same - of course there will be the occasional one where I go omigawd, but 99.99% will still reflect the simplicity of the design and work damn well on the water - AND THEY WILL ALL BE BUILT IN A STYLE THAT REFLECTS THE BUILDER.

The only areas where I would suggest a different direction are that I would have gone with glassing the seams (looks neater, a shade better structurally - but the fillets will be OK) and the bevelling of the hull panels where they meet - to remove material from the panels throws the joining tolerances out and makes other aspects of assembly a fraction more difficult.

But it looks like you have gotten away with it!!!

Thanks too for sharing the FREE PADDLE PLANS link
http://www.storerboatplans.com/Paddles/FreePaddle.html (http://members.ozemail.com.au/%7Estorerm/Paddles/FreePaddle.html)

So once again ... thanks for keeping this great thread going - I'll have to visit again (oh no - he says) to have a look at the finished beestie (curved inwale spacers and all) and take it for a paddle on the river.

Cheers and thanks
Michael

Just Fantastic.

[bitingmidge]

The Eureka was drawn up to be a really simple boat to build - if I was building I would not be bothering about the "inwale spacer jig" but would be cutting them square - so I could get the boat under the Xmas tree at the end of the week!!!
Yeah, but where's the fun in that, it was going to be ready for Christmas last year if I read my first post correctly!!? :D :D :D

Actually one of the great things about the Eureka is that it's SO simple, it should only be a few weekend's work at most, but you know me!. I've been away for a good deal over the last few months, so a bit of fiddling of an evening is quite theraputic.


The only areas where I would suggest a different direction are that I would have gone with glassing the seams (looks neater, a shade better structurally - but the fillets will be OK) and the bevelling of the hull panels where they meet - to remove material from the panels throws the joining tolerances out and makes other aspects of assembly a fraction more difficult.

But it looks like you have gotten away with it!!!
:o :o :o

Yep, I made a lot of work for myself for no benefit at all, in fact it was a real chore getting the panels to align exactly. Don't do it my way kiddies, follow the plans!

Thanks for the critique Mik,

Cheers,
P
:D

[Boatmik]

Thanks for the critique Mik,

Cheers,
P
:D

I wanto see you get the mozzies on your posts follow the cursor!!!!!

Mik

[bitingmidge]

Think I'll go to SuperCheap tomorrow and buy some more 3" clamps while they have their 20% off sale!

P

[bitingmidge]

Another five days of non-building time! :eek:

There's been a little progress, but it's time for a gatuitous bump for the thread, so here's some photos of yesterday's fiddle, and a bit of a seat fitting tutorial.

The photo above, with all the clamps actually shows the inwhale spacers in the process of being glued on, the instructions say do it on the inwhale, but it doesn't matter, and I find it easier to set the whole thing up this way.

The instructions on most plans say "fit seats", and while Mik's are somewhat more detailed than that, it's not all that hard if you've done it before, but if you haven't here's my way:

Photo 1)
Build a cardboard form, just a box without a top or bottom, and sides are at maximum the height you want the seat to be. Don't worry about the fall in the floor, we'll fix that in a minute.

This box will be levelled, and will serve as a prop or support to hold the seat in while gluing, after the glue is set, it can be just crushed and pulled out.

Photo 2)
Measuring the width of the seat is now easy! Make a "joggle stick" out of two bits of scrap, each with a sharp end, and two cheap spring clamps (these came from a Christmas Cracker last week!).

Align the sticks across the box, spread them till they touch the sides, clamp them together, and go away and take your width measurement.

Photo 3)
(really comes before 2) but not to worry! String a line (the yellow thing at the top of the shot) from the peak of the bow and stern. Since this is a symmetrical canoe, it will be automatically parallel with the waterline, in another boat, fiddle so it is.

Now with the seat form in place, measure down perpendicluar to the line to find the slope in the floor.

In the case of this boat, the aft seat sits over a piece of floor that slopes about 6mm, so I trimmed the form so the seat will be level (in a for and aft direction). The forward seat floor is so close to level at that point it doesn't matter.

Some would say it doesn't matter anyway, but it's nice to have the seats in the same (or parallel at least) plane.

Photo 4)

Seat template in place. Measured from the stick, marked and cut:- right first time!!

The black lines are checking a small modification I will make to the seats. I'm thinking of routing decorative slots to give a bit of "boaty" feel, and of course to save another few grams. :rolleyes:

Photo 5)
Inwhale spacers glued in, inwhale clamped temporarily in place. I've got to go and glue it now: See you later!


Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

[Boatmik]

Howdy Midge,

The plans might just say "fit seats" but they do have some pics too!!!

However you have done a much better job of explaining than I have ...
er ...
um ...
would it be OK if I steal your info and put it in the plans (with appropriate accreditation of course!!!)?

Boatmik

[bitingmidge]

Mik,
Err, sorry, I didn't mean to be disparaging, you are correct!... I was really speaking generically :o :o (I is still a bit tired, and blurry eyed - glad I don't drink!)

Please use as you wish!

Cheers,

P

:D :D

[deepdug]

Hi. I am also in the thros of building a (an) Eureka.

The truth is, I suppose, that I finished the structure this afternoon and tomorrow I want to finish the coating.

The rush is that I want to take it away on Friday.

I have taken a lot of WIP photos and I have changed just a few things that I couldn't get to work for me.

The finished boat looks very nice and I am quite pleased with the result.

I was very out of practice as I have not built anything significant from wood for 20 years and the last boat I built was a Mirror dinghy in 1965.

When I return from my vacation I will post some selected photos and I will also try to justify my changes from Michael's plan.

I will let the forum know of my impressions of the canoe in the water.\

Cheers

[bitingmidge]

deepdug!

How dare you!! :D This thread has been going for years and I've still got weeks to go, and you just up and finish???

Please don't forget the pics! We're all looking forward to them.

What did you do for paddles??

Cheers,

P

[Boatmik]

The finished boat looks very nice and I am quite pleased with the result.

When I return from my vacation I will post some selected photos and I will also try to justify my changes from Michael's plan.

I will let the forum know of my impressions of the canoe in the water.\

Cheers
Looking forward to seeing the photos and hearing about the changes.

Many of the most useful things I have learned over the years have been from people in boatbuilding classes or who have built my boats.

Free paddle plans including detailed building instructions are on the webpage link below. Also some 9ft oars for boats with a beam of 4ft6ins through to 5ft (download the additional oar drawing and use the paddle instructions)

Best Regards
Michael Storer

[deepdug]

For now I am using $10 a pop paddles from Glasscraft until I make two single paddles using Michael's free plan.

[deepdug]

I am back from Stansbury on the Yorke Peninsular and I have completed the first sea trials of my Eureka.

Due to an inexperienced crew the first thing that happened was that we got tipped out. I was trying to test how much I could lean the boat and she leant the same way and over we went.

I found the plans a little vague on the placement of the seats and the result is that the tops of my seats are 180mm above the floor. As I weight 90ks this is too high and made the canoe feel a bit unstable. If I sit on the floor it feels fine but it is a reach to paddle from down there. I will take the seats out and experiment with various heights before I try again. I have seen some really cool looking cane insert seats on American and Canadian web sites and I may investigate those.

I took the boat away without the varnish and applied it in the caravan park over there. The boat seems to have ended up a bit skinnier that was designed but it looks very sleek and lovely so I am reluctant to try to fatten it up for fear of breaking something or spoiling the lines. Let's hope I can reach a good feel with lowered seats.

I have no photos of the boat in the water but it seemed to float with the chine just at the water line at my seat. That is with about 145 kilos of crew on board.

[Wood Butcher]

Deepdug,
Glas to hear the canoe went well. Do you have any pic's at all of the finished canoe??

[bitingmidge]

Deepdug,

It looks terrific!

Yours is certainly noticably narrower than mine. I have kept the 19 x19 temporary gunwhale clamped on during the whole process, and will put a temporary centre spreader in place before gluing on the inwhale just to make sure it stays close to it's designed beam dimension. (I don't like swimming!)

Comparing seat heights, I reckon yours are 60 or 80 (maybe 75) mm higher than where I propose to stick mine. You can see from the mockup above, that I've set them up 100 above the floor, which takes them to just under the chine. I hope that's low enough!

I thought about cane seats, but at the rate I work, figured that would take till the end of the millenium, so I'm going to rout a few slots in the seat, stand well back and squint at them and call it "art".

Tomorrow's a holiday I understand... maybe I'll get the inwhales on!

Watch this space! (and I'll add to Rowan's request for pics of it in the water please!)

P

[deepdug]

One of my problems was that I could not find any mention of the designed width at the centre spreader and I didn't trust that little drawing to be to scale.

Also the plans say put the seat support with the bottom on the chine. That's what got the seats so high! As I was short of time I built the seats in situ which is a bugger now that I have to take them out. I hope the trusty Dremel will let me do some fine dental work there. If anyone has some better idea of how to lower the seats [perhaps by cutting near the side and attaching to the stump left behind] I would be pleased to hear it.

I also gave up trying to distort the piece of 15 X 15 that was supposed to be at the top of the bulkheads and left it out. I compensated [in my mind] by puting a filet across under the deck. My first test row at least proved that the flotation chambers are watertight!

I think that getting the dome in the decks was the hardest part of the whole exercise. I wonder if it is worth the effort. I had real trouble getting clamps to hold it.

I extended the gunwales to a point both fore and aft and the sanded them to a nice radius. I think that it looks better like that.

I went outside any took a few shots of it in my backyard but the bloody things came out at over 100k even on my camera's lowest setting so I will have to find out how to shrink them before I can post them. I have none of it in the water as yet.

Doug

[bennylaird]

Have you got Microsoft photo editor on your machine. If so just resize in there to about 600 pixels and save, usually brings the size down.

[bitingmidge]

One of my problems was that I could not find any mention of the designed width at the centre spreader and I didn't trust that little drawing to be to scale.
Not trusting drawings is a good thing! Michael's are absolutely spot-on, but at that scale a humid day can make 50mm of difference!

I suspect he'll read this and add a dimension from here on!

Using the 4mm ply was one of the reasons I was so aware of keeping the gunwhale line fair, so I was a bit careful.

Also the plans say put the seat support with the bottom on the chine. That's what got the seats so high! As I was short of time I built the seats in situ which is a bugger now that I have to take them out. I hope the trusty Dremel will let me do some fine dental work there. If anyone has some better idea of how to lower the seats [perhaps by cutting near the side and attaching to the stump left behind] I would be pleased to hear it.
I didn't read the plans past the bit that said the seat is (100-120 mm above the bottom) :o :o , but they also look right about there.

I don't think there's an easy way of cutting the seats out, although dropping them by 80mm or so will give you a bit to play with. I'd use an angle grinder, being careful not to grind the sides of the hull!


I also gave up trying to distort the piece of 15 X 15 that was supposed to be at the top of the bulkheads and left it out. I compensated [in my mind] by puting a filet across under the deck.
That's where experience helps! I just whacked on a flat bit, and cut it down to match the profile. It's all out of sight inside the compartment anyway.


I think that getting the dome in the decks was the hardest part of the whole exercise. I wonder if it is worth the effort. I had real trouble getting clamps to hold it.

It was worth the effort! I have got a bit of 6mm for the decks, and I reckon it's just about impossible to bend over that radius, so I intend to run it through the drum sander till it's about 4.5mm or until it bends easily!

The answer for others would be to use a lighter ply 4 or 5mm for the half sheet for decks, bulkhead and seats, or run a heap of shallow saw kerfs through the underside of the deck. The curve really makes it look like you put some effort in!


I extended the gunwales to a point both fore and aft and the sanded them to a nice radius. I think that it looks better like that.
Yep, nice job. I guess I'll make up my mind when/if the time comes. As usual I have spent a lot of time thinking of really hard ways to do something really simple! (see my deck beam for an example of that!)


I went outside any took a few shots of it in my backyard but the bloody things came out at over 100k even on my camera's lowest setting so I will have to find out how to shrink them before I can post them.
If you can't work it out, send me a PM and we'll overcome it!

cheers,

P
:D :D :D

[deepdug]

Thanks for the photo editor help.

I have made my living programming computers for over 40 years and I am completely up-to-date on some programming techniques but I cannot keep up with all of these tricks.

By the way I couldn't get the chooks to stay away. They are Wyandotte bantams so the boat looks much bigger when compared to my little chooks.

[deepdug]

3 more

[bitingmidge]

I'm going home to work on mine early today!! :D :D :D

It looks terrific! It also proves that I've wasted a lot of time mucking round with the bevelled joints!

I'm not confident that I can get the external glass good enough to clear finish though, but it looks great so you've convinced me to perservere.

Well done. How long do you reckon it took to build?

Cheers,

P (still building the prototype remember!)
:D :D :D

[deepdug]

I don't know exactly when I started but I see from the photos that I had it all stiched up by 15/12/05 but no glass yet. I took it away coated but not varnished on January 6. According to my Visa statements I bought the plans on Nov 21 and the materials on Nov 25. I worked at least 2 days a week up until December 21 [on computing that is] and I was very busy with music until December 17.

The answer? I have no idea. I suspect an elapsed time of 3 1/2 weeks but about 40 hours work. The real advantage in my opinion of stitch and glue boats is that you have the boat shape very quickly and this urges you to keep at it.

I would like your opinion on whether or not I should also remove the centre spreader and try to slant the side out a bit by increasing the centre width to 800 mm from the existing 740 mm? I will not sue you if you tell me to do it and I break something.

I left mine wood finished to cover all my splashed epoxy.

Cheers,

Doug

[Wood Butcher]

Hi Doug,

Thanks for the photos. The canoe looks great. Now that I've seen a finished one :D I will definately be getting a copy of the plans and building one as soon as I can get a few other projects out of the way.

[Boatmik]

The answer? I have no idea. I suspect an elapsed time of 3 1/2 weeks but about 40 hours work. The real advantage in my opinion of stitch and glue boats is that you have the boat shape very quickly and this urges you to keep at it.

I would like your opinion on whether or not I should also remove the centre spreader and try to slant the side out a bit by increasing the centre width to 800 mm from the existing 740 mm? I will not sue you if you tell me to do it and I break something.

I left mine wood finished to cover all my splashed epoxy.

Cheers,

Doug
Howdy Doug,

I know I sent you a personal reply on this a couple of days ago, but thought it would be good to post it here for the public record.

Your feedback - thanks hugely - has made it clear that the two temporary spreaders to keep the sides apart at deck level while the boat is built are not enough. Your boat and Midges are almost 2 inches (50mm) different in beam - which is much too much - so I wll modify the drawing to show a third temporary spreader in the middle from now on and maybe move the ones in the ends as well.

I will be sorting this out in the next coupla days - just got back home (Adelaide) after a month away. I will be contacting all the plan purchasers from the last 6 months or so to pass on the info as well.

Any previous purchasers can also email me on [email protected] if they want to get the info a bit faster and maybe a bit more reliably. Mention Eureka in the subject line.
___________________________________

The two spreader method was lifted from the smaller Eureka 130 where it worked fine. Probably the difference is purely in the extra length of the 155 - the temporary spreaders at the ends have a limited capacity to affect the with in the middle of the boat accurately - just too far away.
___________________________________

An additional precaution is to make sure the sides of the boat run in a smooth curve after it is stitched and before the seams are located with fibreglass tape. The easy way is to just temporarily clamp the gunwales in place to stiffen up the floppy plywood.

In a way it shows how foolproof the method is - both boats look very smart indeed by reports and/or photos.
______________________________

So as to your question about removing the centre spreader . . .

The items that make the boat retain its shape at the gunwale level are from weakest to strongest

1/ the glass tape along the hull panel seams
2/ the bulkheads and end decks
3/ the gunwales - and the seats
4/ the centre spreader

If the centre speader comes out and you are moving the seats further down while replacing them with those nice trad cane ones then you have removed the main limitations on changing the shape of the boat.

The gunwales, while stiff, will be quite happy to bend significant amounts.

If you do this the main items that are left to stop you from bending too far are the end decks and buoyancy tank bulkheads. If you overdo it and severely stress the structure, that's where any damage will occur. They are very strong so you will have to put in heaps of load to break them.

My feeling is because the seats are coming out it may not be too hard to do something about the centre spreader at the same time.

Probably the best strategy is just to cut the ends off the spreader close to the hull then chisel the remains out - replace with a new bit of wood.

It is only really worth doing if the seats are coming out at the same time. I don't think you will be able to make enough difference if the seats are in place.

Best Regards
Michael Storer

[deepdug]

Thanks Michael,


As you know my boat is currently 745mm at the spreader. You told me that another boat was 800mm. I still do not know what the designed beam is at the spreader.


Doug

[Boatmik]

Thanks Michael,


As you know my boat is currently 745mm at the spreader. You told me that another boat was 800mm. I still do not know what the designed beam is at the spreader.


Doug
Hi Doug,

Just got back to my desktop computer (home to Adelaide) to check the original drawings.

The beam is 856mm in the centre. So Biting Midges' (Peter's) boat is closer though it is made of thinner ply.

If you are planning to push the middle of the boat out as we were discussing I doubt that you would get that much. Maybe you would, but I would suspect there would be significant stress on the structure. Also watch that the gunwales don't take on a funny "S" shape in the ends - just look along the boat.

Have almost finished modifying the plans.

I finally realised that your pics were on the previous page - nothing like a boat built from wood!! Very nice. Do you know what the weight is? What sort of ply? Did you add any extra fibreglass?

Michael

email me on [email protected] if you want a quick reply as I won't be able to check this bulletin board for a few days.

MIK

[bitingmidge]

Doesn't time fly when you're having fun?? Three weeks after the last work was done, I've been back in the shed!

All the Inwhale spacers are on, (at last) see pic 1.


Other pictures are as follows:-

2) No point in using one piece of timber when five will do the job ;), so I've laminated the centre spreader out of a few scraps. Actually I tried to get smart and bookmatch the curve of the grain to follow the curve of the spreader...but it'll just miss by a bit! :eek:

3) Centre Spreader Template, and temporary spreader with a LOT of curves doodled on.
Michael's plans say of the centre spreader: "It can be sculpted to look sweet". After jiggering around for hours, I can see why
a) he didn't suggest a solution
b) deepdug went for the square look. (which is fine by the way!)

I used more or less the same curve as the bulkhead top, and the deck camber which was a bit too great, and the template in the pic will have another half-inch or so taken out of the width by the time I get it finished!

OK, I know.... I'll just build it and stop thinking... it's a canoe for crying out loud! (You can have the template when I've finished Rowan!)

4) Seat trial fitting. I still have a bit of work to do, will rebate the tops into the beams, and a bit of sanding still to go too, but I'm happy with them.

The plans call for simple ply seats, which of course would have been finished by now, but I rather like the lighter look of these (and I saved 200 grams in weight as well!) :rolleyes: .

Oh, Rowan, you can have the router template and jig too if you like them!

Now we wait for the epoxy to go off before we can make more progress!

cheers,

P
:D :D :D

[deepdug]

My spreader is that shape because I was in a great hurry to take my canoe on my annual vacation. I am unhappy with the stability of the boat so I will most likely try to make it a bit more beamy.

During my research into seats I saw some centre spreaders in the good old USA which double as portage yokes. Since I seem certain to remove my current spreader and since I now have all the time in the world I may try for that look as well as the cane insert seats.

I have just been jumping on and off of my bathroom scales whilst holding the Eureka and the answer seems to be that mine weighs 56 lbs. - 25.4 kg.

[bitingmidge]

Sorry,
I wasn't having a go at your spreader shape, just explaining the options. (Post now edited!)

I looked at the portage yokes for a bit, then couldn't work out how to make one to fit my wife without her realising what was going on!

I don't think this boat will be carried by one person too often though!

I like the idea of carrying it onto a set of bathroom scales (I was going to hold it vertical on them!) We could use that method using two scales for bigger boats as well I think: a person at each end, each standing on a scale?

After your comment re: stability, I've adjusted the spreader length and the boat is now at the designed 845mm.

I admire the fact that you actually did get it finished for your holidays! I had planned to, but decided it was all too hard, hence the month long abberation with no progress!

Cheers,

P

[Wood Butcher]

Great to see that you got some time in the shed Peter. It's great to see the step by step construction details. I showed SWMBO the photos of deepdug's canoe and I have the go ahead to make one so I will take you up the offer for the jigs.

Look forward to the next post!!

[bitingmidge]

Strange how things go slowly some days!

With a few visitors and things at that "need to be coated with epoxy" stage, progress just didn't happen today.

I have glued the seat assemblies, coated the inner face of the inwhales, and the underside and sides of the spacers, as well as the bottom and sides of the centre spreader.

Because there's no way to sand these bits once installed, I now have to wait for the epoxy to harden enough to sand, then glue them in, which I'll probably do on Thursday night, as I'm away for a few days (business).

Then it'll be a case of coating the seats, giving them a final fit, and bunging them in along with the deck beams.

I'm a bit worried about the deck, as reported by deepdug, it's pretty stiff. I've sanded off one whole ply and it's still pretty rigid, so we'll do a trial fit with gaffer tape next weekend.

Then it's turn her over and glass the outside! :D

Cheers,

P (turning a little job into a monster! :eek: )

[deepdug]

Peter,

I think that your slotted seats look very nice.

Maybe I will take the easy way out and do that. I mean - easier than trying to import seats from the USA!

Doug

[Boatmik]

3) Centre Spreader Template, and temporary spreader with a LOT of curves doodled on.
Michael's plans say of the centre spreader: "It can be sculpted to look sweet". After jiggering around for hours, I can see why
a) he didn't suggest a solution
b) deepdug went for the square look. (which is fine by the way!)

I didn't offer a solution because I think there are two types of people in the world. And my version of a solution will not make either of them happy.

1/ Ones that will farnarckle around for hours and come up with something timeless and elegant.
2/ Those who will just get on with it will also produce something timeless, elegant and quick :-)

So the plans carefully cater for both types. By mentioning the alternatives but not mentioning how gets Midge's creative juices going. By just giving the square measurements means people like DeepDug and myself can just get on with it.

By the way Midge, I concur with Doug. Your slotted seats are REALLY pretty - and not too much extra work and just perhaps they will reduce the water that ends up on the seat.

Very cool indeed.

Thanks for the additional feedback on the decks. What thickness ply did you use? This is one of the areas that Doug mentioned was less than fun.

Thankyou both again for the excellent feedback.

Michael Storer

[Boatmik]

My spreader is that shape because I was in a great hurry to take my canoe on my annual vacation. I am unhappy with the stability of the boat so I will most likely try to make it a bit more beamy.

I have just been jumping on and off of my bathroom scales whilst holding the Eureka and the answer seems to be that mine weighs 56 lbs. - 25.4 kg.
Howdy Doug,

Tell me how you go with getting the beam out more toward the designed width. It would be really interesting to see how much of the stiffenss of the shape is in the seats and centrespreader. It will be much more flexible with them out, but the question is how far you can move it.

The weight is good - about half the weight of a nicely finished fibreglass canoe. Did you use 6mm gaboon? I think you said, but I don't remember.

(note for readers who missed it - the plans specify 5mm gaboon which just right. However no-one has been importing it for some time so the options are to go for either 4 or 6mm or move to a 4mm hoop pine which is a bit stiffer and heavier than the gaboon.)

I know Midge used 4mm and look forward to poking his boat (hammer? housebrick?) when I get up to Qld to see it in a week or two. He will probably increase the stiffness by glassing the outside of the very bottom panel instead of just taping it in.

Michael Storer

[deepdug]

Hi Michael,

I have been exercising my mind all day [whilst also grinding out a computer programme or two] on how to tackle the widening.

One of my thoughts was to cut the spreader at the centre and try to push the sides out and then glue a piece into the middle maybe of contrasting wood to try to make it look as if I meant it.

It is not that I am too poor to buy a new spreader but I do not look forward to undoing all of the fillet joints and glue that I put on the spreader.

My boat is made out of 6mm gaboon which is what Duckflat gave me in the kit I bought. That ply is an absolute bugger to bend around the top of the bulkhead but as Peter said it does look quite good on the finished boat. I was very tempted to take the deck out to the edge of the gunwale where it would have been mush easier to clamp. I even considered rebating all of the top edge to allow the deck to sit level with the rest of the gunwale. It would have been a lot of messing about but would have avoided the most difficult step.

As I was so badly out of practice with woodwork I made some immediate mistakes which are evident in the missing layer of ply right at the butt straps. I do not have a large flat area on which to work and I found it very difficult to handle glue, straps, sheets, hammer and panel pins. The result was that the sheets did not exactly line up and I took a ply off at the join in a few spots to get it smooth. As it is under the strap I did not compromise the strength of the panel but my errors will always be there to remind me unless I paint over them which I am loth to do.

The more this thread continues the more comments I think of about my trials during construction. In the end I know that it cannot be too difficult or I could not have done it in the time with the facilities at my disposal.

Cheers,

Doug Pearce

[bitingmidge]

The more this thread continues the more comments I think of about my trials during construction. In the end I know that it cannot be too difficult or I could not have done it in the time with the facilities at my disposal.
Doug,

That's a bit of my fault I think... I've succeeded in taking a perfectly simple boat which can be built by anyone in a few weekends with almost no tools, and turning it into an intellectual exercise... or more correctly an exercise in procrastination!

If you go back to the first page, you'll see that the prototype panels me took err....7 or 8 years, and I must say I remain eternally grateful to Michael for being on a sort of sabbatical for the whole of that time, and not once asking me what became of them!

You'll also see that I was optimistically expecting to have the thing finished by Christmas ... .... ...

2004! :eek: :eek: :eek:

I'm really pleased that you are here to provide a balance!

Cheers,

P

[bitingmidge]

Thanks for the additional feedback on the decks. What thickness ply did you use? This is one of the areas that Doug mentioned was less than fun.

Doug has shown that it's entirely possible, if a little challenging!

I just happened to have half a sheet of 6mm gaboon left over from building Gruff (well it's only been ten years!) so the decks and seats were 6mm five- ply.

Even with one ply sanded off, it's still very stiff. I've been cogitating over Doug's pics for a bit this evening, and the 4mm ply would have been perfect, but.....

I'm thinking of building a form, routing the guts out of the underside of the ply, sticking it in a bendy form, then epoxying one side. I know... I know....but it should make fitting the already cambered deck a doddle, and it means I can put off the glassing for another week!

Cheers,

P

[Daddles]

Hey Peter, how'd you go with that jig to route the middle ply out of all the plywood? How much weight did you say you were going to save? Oops, you asked me not to mention this to Mik. Sorry:D I

Richard

[Boatmik]

Hey Peter, how'd you go with that jig to route the middle ply out of all the plywood? How much weight did you say you were going to save? Oops, you asked me not to mention this to Mik. Sorry:D I

Richard

I've got my beady eyes on both of you.

MIK

[bitingmidge]

One of my thoughts was to cut the spreader at the centre and try to push the sides out and then glue a piece into the middle maybe of contrasting wood to try to make it look as if I meant it.
Doug,

I reckon by the time you do that, and scarf a bit in to splice it back together, you could have cut the other one out.

On thinking about it a bit, you could end up with a nasty "S" shape in the top panel of the hull, because it will want to rotate as you push it out, if you don't let it (by keeping the spreader in place)...something won't work (or you could end up with an inverted V shaped spreader!

cheers,

P

[bitingmidge]

Enough of the nonsense! Here's some progress at last..

Pic 1) Free of clamps and that temporary gunwhale for the first time! The inwhale and centre spreader are now glued in place, so the shell is now a stable (and very light) form.

I have got a few "woofs" in the bottom as a result of the light ply used, so will look into it when the boat is turned over, and decide if I'm going to paint or varnish then.

Pic 2) Inwhale detail. It looks a mess now, but this is the one job that belt sanders are good at; cleaning up four different grain directions, edge grain ply and epoxy dags. Watch this evolve! The rounded ends on the inwhale spacers will look really nice in a day or two.

Pic 3) Joinery Detail; posted so everyone realises that there's no point jiggering around getting a perfect fit near the bulkheads, because the joint is going to be hidden by the deck anyway, and I'll tidy it up with a fillet in the end. Just make sure that the end grain of these bits is well and truly coated, because water will get trapped here if you store the boat upside down.

Pic 4) Deck beam installed, and ready for that pesky deck to stay in shape!

Cheers,

P (bubbling happily along now)
:D

[Cliff Rogers]

Nice pics, or would be if you had remembered to attach them. :D

Arhh, they are there now. ;)

[bitingmidge]

Your on a Windows machine aren't you Cliff? :D :D :D

Anyway: Now for that pesky deck! As mentioned above in several places, the 6mm 5ply is bit reluctant to spring into the necessary shape required to give the deck a nice camber.

I've sanded off an entire ply, and it's still pretty springy, so I clamped a deck in place to see what it would look like (Pic 1) :( .

Clearly the first six inches was the only bit that was even remotely interested in being bent.

I reckon you must have the patience of Job there Doug!

This calls for a serious bit of strategy (and another jig for you Rowan!) so I cut a few moulds tonight, to hold the deck camber while I popped a couple of coats of epoxy on the underside. (pics 2 &3)

I didn't bother compensating for springback, it's either going to work, or it's not. If it doesn't, I'll be back tomorrow night armed with a roll of fibreglass tape. THEN we'll see who's boss!!!

Cheers,

P
:D :D

[Cliff Rogers]

You're on a Windows machine aren't you Cliff? :D :D :D
...

Sorry, is it too fast for your old Mac? :D
You have an e-mail waiting as well. ;)

[deepdug]

OK, I've taken the seats out and cut the spreader close to the gunwale [there was no way that the screws were coming out].

Now, has anyone any bright ideas as to how I might get enough force to distort the boat about 100 mm at the centre. It is quite stiff. It doesn't complain about the movement but it is very stiff.

I found out that the bottle hydrolic jack from my van will not work in a horizontal position.

Doug