Carbide insert tools

[Frank&Earnest]

After the flurry of posts about the CI "rougher" about one year ago, it all seems to have gone quiet on this front. Am I the only one using insert tools for everything from a 1.5mm thin finial to a 14" bowl? I am probably becoming lazy, because I do not use what arguably could be better tools for the job, but getting all the results my undemanding self wants with no need for sharpening and an extremely small risk of catches is too addictive.

Or is the silence due to the fact that we all like new toys and now we do not have an excuse for buying special turning gouges and chisels? I hope the sellers of such items have not put a contract out on me...:D

Incidentally: an ex tech teacher with a great opinion of his skills suggested that they would be no good on soft timbers, so I challenged him to do better with a conventional gouge on cupressus macrocarpa. Obviously this is no proof of anything, but he could not. It is true, though, that they work much better on harder woods.

If the only problem is that you do not have the opportunity to try it, I am happy to send one of the inserts I use, at cost, to anybody who has a CI tool (after making sure that it works on those). Otherwise, you could just buy a box of 10 from Leuco, it is less than $100. The steel bar, professionally machined, should cost less than 30 bucks, if there is enough interest maybe we can arrange for a semi-retired toolmaker to make a small batch. With very limited metalworking skills like mine, a grinder and a bench press you can make your own.

Over to you!

[Stef]

I am wanting to buy a Ci 1 Easy Rougher Frank & Earnest.
I would be interested to know more about the insert that you are using, can you post pic.


Cheers Stef.

[jefferson]

F & E,

I've got all 3 of the EasyWood tools - the Ci1, 2 and 0.

I originally bought the Ci1 to hollow my end-grain boxes, but others have shown me a better way. And now tools are much sharper, thanks to sharpening lessons from and Ken W. Now, hollowing with a long-and-strong spindle gouge, then with Sorby multi-tip, is a much better option.

So I don't use the Ci1 as much as I thought I might mave. One area (for me at least) where it does excel is getting platters / bowls into round (and balance) without all that "bounce". It also does a great job in scraping the inside bases of flat boxes.

Same goes for the Ci2.

But I do use the Ci0 a lot. It's fantastic for the final hollowing of boxes with shape. And the inserts seem to last a long, long time, as you are only using a very small part of the cutting edge. And you can be as aggressive or delicate as you like - I've honestly not had one catch with it. Or none that I can remember anyway.

Out of the 3, the Ci0 is my favourite.

[TTIT]

Hadn't thought about it much but all I use it for is roughing down big, hard, unbalanced stuff. I find they are too hard on the work piece, ripping chunks out everywhere and causing whatever drive I'm using to chew out and slip. Then there's the hammering on the toolrest:~ - might as well turn it on a metal-lathe. All-in-all I much prefer to slice the waste off - much less stress on me, the workpiece and the lathe :shrug:
Just my 2 bob's worth - now back to my corner :B

[jefferson]

Vern, I don't think the troops want you to got "back in your corner". :) I and others will continue to learn much from you. :2tsup: (And I want to see that egg collection, one day).

Not sure exactly what you were saying about the Ci1. Do you use it to get stuff into balance, then start cutting with the gouge? That's what I do anyway.

[Frank&Earnest]

Ok, let's try to tackle this issue methodically.

1) the insert. The one I use (just because it is what I could find, there are possibly better ones available, I do not know) is # 182443 made in Germany and imported by Leuco in Sydney. 14.3mm square with a small rounding on the left side of the edges and 2.5 mm thick. The hole (6.3mm?) should be compatible with the Ci1-2 but the bevel could possibly be obstructed by the bar because of the different size.

2) the technique. By presenting the cutting edge exactly on the centre line of the spindle with the tool pointing down slightly (only 1-2 degrees) this insert can be pushed hard enough to make short work of roughing any hardwood, or delicately enough to finish off the tool a 1.5 mm thin finial without tailstock support. Having one tool with the insert mounted at 90 degrees and one at 45 degrees allows sweeping curves in any direction. The 4-8mm wide streamers I have been getting out of green Western Myall were very gratifying.

3) the limitations. These tools can not do well small coves and round tight corners at the bottom of hollowed forms. For that you need a round blade, as Jeff found out. A spindle gouge used in this situation is actually presented almost orthogonally to the wood, which means that it is used as a scraper. That's the reason why I am still chasing a round insert, must try the Vermec 10mm TCT cutter.

In summary: If I can achieve these results with my very limited skills, the tool must be good. But you have only my word for it. Since the last get together at my place there does not seem to have been any other organised in Adelaide. Why don't we organise another one? , you can come and make sure by yourself! :)

[Frank&Earnest]

Hadn't thought about it much but all I use it for is roughing down big, hard, unbalanced stuff. I find they are too hard on the work piece, ripping chunks out everywhere and causing whatever drive I'm using to chew out and slip. Then there's the hammering on the toolrest:~ - might as well turn it on a metal-lathe. All-in-all I much prefer to slice the waste off - much less stress on me, the workpiece and the lathe :shrug:
Just my 2 bob's worth - now back to my corner :B

Yes, had the same experience. The problem is the speed. The minimum for getting good results from the insert is 900 rpm, the faster the better. If your piece is too unbalanced to withstand 900, forget it, a gouge works better because it presents a smaller cutting edge. You are right about using a metal lathe approach for roughing: use the left side of the square insert pushing from right to left, it is much easier on the wood.

[TTIT]

...............
Not sure exactly what you were saying about the Ci1. Do you use it to get stuff into balance, then start cutting with the gouge? That's what I do anyway.


Yes, had the same experience. The problem is the speed. The minimum for getting good results from the insert is 900 rpm, the faster the better. If your piece is too unbalanced to withstand 900, forget it, a gouge works better because it presents a smaller cutting edge. You are right about using a metal lathe approach for roughing: use the left side of the square insert pushing from right to left, it is much easier on the wood.You're right about the speed F&E - but once the piece is balanced enough to push it to 900rpm or so I switch to the gouge anyway. I just hate the old 'ka-thunk, ka-thunk' of the gouge bouncing on really bumpy unbalanced bits of dry hardwoods like Dead-Finish and such at slow speeds - that is why I use the Rougher to hack off the bumps a bit. :U

[hughie]

I had often thought the problems Vern has encountered would be there. I find if the tip is round then the effects are not so pronounced. But as Vern has said I also prefer slicing. But this is only MHO.

[NeilS]

I was using the Carbide Insert Tool that Frank kindly made for me to rough down green blanks until the tips that I had (courtesy of Cliff) all became too blunt to use.

I did find the tool quite good for that. You can rough down a large green lump of wood in very short order, using just the carbide tool on the outside but swapping over to a bowl gouge to complete the final cuts on the inside. The way I use it, the carbide tool leaves a series of steps inside the bowl that need to be removed with a bowl gouge.

I did sharpen the tips for a while with a diamond bit in my rotary tool but finally gave up on that.

I tend to use the tool more like a gouge than a scraper, ie with tool raised and the bevel rubbing.

I plan to buy some replacement tips when I get around to it.

There was a very good source for them from the US on eBay for a while (seller garyet3 (http://myworld.ebay.com.au/garyet3&ssPageName=STRK:MEFSX:SELLERID) ) but he is not currently active.

...

[jefferson]

Neil,

You'd be on my buddy / greenie list if I knew how. All I know is that you teach and turn better than I. :2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

(If I add too many TTU, I lose the thread! :?).

But I cannot understand how you can say that you gain bevel support using carbide tipped inserts. Or am I losing it?

The bevel on the inserts is maybe 1-1.5mm, 2mm max.

What am I missing?

I am trying to learn some (or all) of it. But geez, every turner tells me something different. Cut above, at or below centre. Use this tool or that......

I'm doing my best and you guys are confusing the absolute cr*p out of me at almost every "turn".

Or is this little adventure about me listening to all, and finding my "own" way?

Please talk to me (and help). A bad week and more here with the bronchitis - and I am doing a demo with the Esc. chuck soon (with and WWW thankfully in the wings) and have absolutely no idea...

You people certainly do inspire me.

But please do not assume too much about a novice like me. Think of some poor bugger with a stuffed head, great equipment, office hands and not much (no) idea. But someone prepared to listen and learn.

[Frank&Earnest]

Jeff, what Neil is alluding to is that the front of the bar is cut (approximately in this case :-) at the same angle as the cutter, therefore it extends the 2-3mm bevel to around 15mm.

Neil, you are local. Why don't you drop in, I quickly adjust your tool (if necessary) to take the type of insert I am using and we photograph each other's techniques for the forum to comment on?

Here is another of the Myall Miniatures I have had fun turning with these tools.

As I was saying before, the inside of the "flagon" (neck 1.5 mm, wall and bottom 3-4 mm thick) was scraped with the wing of a 1/4" gouge tilted to the side.

[RETIRED]

Neil,



Or is this little adventure about me listening to all, and finding my "own" way?

.Yep.:wink::D

[Frank&Earnest]

Yep.:wink::D

As with anything in life. :wink::D

[NeilS]

I cannot understand how you can say that you gain bevel support using carbide tipped inserts. Or am I losing it?

The bevel on the inserts is maybe 1-1.5mm, 2mm max.

What am I missing?



Easy there Jeff, you don't have to make sense of everything that is thrown around this forum. Remember that there is a lot of pissing on posts (territory marking) that goes on here...:U Ignore a lot of it and just concentrate on what is already/starting to work for you and in time it will all come together.

Now, on rubbing the bevel with the insert tool. The combined insert and bar form quite a reasonable area for rubbing, at least on the one that Frank made for me. [OK, Frank posted a pic of his/mine while I was composing this post, see that for the geometry]. The bar doesn't have to be HSS to perform the rubbing function. By using the heel of the bar as a fulcrum you can adjust the depth of cut and get better control on the banana skin thick shavings that come off green wood.

It's not a technique I would recommend until you are comfortable with bowl gouges, as it is the equivalent of using the full wing length of a swept back grind on a plunging cut! There is a lot of force involved and you really have to lean on the handle so it doesn't flip out of your hand and....:o. So, I keep the tool rest close to the work to increase my leverage on the handle.

As the tool was designed to be used in scraping mode, perhaps stick with that if that is what you are comfortable with for now, that way it won't get away on you and do a damage to something you value.

The nearest traditional tool I can think of that work the same way is the bedan. Perhaps master that first before using the carbide insert tool this way.

....

[Frank&Earnest]

Remember that there is a lot of pissing on posts (territory marking) that goes on here...:U
....

Now that you said that, I hope you did not interpret my offer for a joint demo as a challenge to see who's best...:o My apologies if it could have appeared that way.

Bet now somebody will think up jokes about pissing in company...:D

[Frank&Earnest]

Just managed to look at the "100 tips" thread. Thanks Jeff for starting it and Neil for referring Russ's tips, which include:

16 - Real woodturners do use scrapers. A scraper is a cutting tool, and it does remove wood. I can do everything with a scraper that can be done with a bowl gouge. It will take me longer, but the wood surface will be better.

17- You can turn an entire bowl or anything else, inside and out, with a scraper. It just takes longer and there is no reason for the tooled finish to be any different from that of a gouge.

I feel like I just reinvented the wheel.:-

[jefferson]

Neil - thanks for the detailed response (someone give him a smilie, I don't know how!)

I will pay heed to your advice and stick with what I'm doing at the moment. That is, just cutting with the tip and no bevel-rub. I can't get into too many troubles that way.

Thanks again for the great explanation.

(I just ducked out to the shed to check the "bevel" on the Ci1. I'd only be guessing, but I'd have to drop the handle say 15-20 degrees from horizontal to touch the heel. Way too dangerous for me!)

[NeilS]

Now that you said that, I hope you did not interpret my offer for a joint demo as a challenge to see who's best...:o My apologies if it could have appeared that way.



Far from it Frank. I didn't have anyone in mind, just making a general observation....:U




Neil, you are local. Why don't you drop in, I quickly adjust your tool (if necessary) to take the type of insert I am using and we photograph each other's techniques for the forum to comment on?



Sounds like fun, let's do it. Do you have a swivel head lathe? What thread size?

....

[NeilS]

That's the reason why I am still chasing a round insert, must try the Vermec 10mm TCT cutter.



Frank - not sure how suited these (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/10-PC-MITSUBISHI-RPMW-1003MO-TBD100-CARBIDE-INSERT-C85_W0QQitemZ110436690301QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_BnI_Woodworking_Metalworking?hash=item19b68a297d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) round carbide tips on eBay would perform on wood, but perhaps worth someone giving them a go. It isn't clear what size they are and couldn't find anything in English that helps on that by searching on the code.

....

[hughie]

not sure how suited these (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/10-PC-MITSUBISHI-RPMW-1003MO-TBD100-CARBIDE-INSERT-C85_W0QQitemZ110436690301QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_BnI_Woodworking_Metalworking?hash=item19b68a297d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) round carbide tips on eBay would perform on wood, but perhaps worth someone giving them a go. It isn't clear what size they are and couldn't find anything in English that helps on that by searching on the code.




Unless they are specifically ground for cutting timber I am afraid they would be near useless. It is possible to back track the specs via the part number on the packet.

[Frank&Earnest]

Yep, what you said. I tried the triangular ones shown in the same page and they are indeed near useless. Tried grinding them on the green wheel, but they are too small to hold them with pincers or screwed on a bar. The Vermec ones should be made for the job, I assume (risky, I know! :U) that they would work. It must be a specialised product with a small market, otherwise (other assumption :D) Leuco would import/sell something similar. This said, maybe it would be easier to grind the round ones on a metal lathe, have you tried that hughie?

Neil: Good. Yes, Jet1440. 1"/10. I'll PM so we can arrange the details.

[WOODbTURNER]

Came across this Carbide Depot (USA) article. Might be what you need.
www.carbidedepot.com/wood-turning.htm (http://www.carbidedepot.com/wood-turning.htm)

[Frank&Earnest]

Came across this Carbide Depot (USA) article. Might be what you need.
www.carbidedepot.com/wood-turning.htm (http://www.carbidedepot.com/wood-turning.htm)

Thanks WbT, these looks promising. I started ordering a pack of 5 of the 12mm ones for $35.50, then I arrived at the postage charge: $50! :oo: I assume the charge would be the same for a much larger number, given that the weight is immaterial. Anybody interested in a bulk purchase? Postage for distribution here in Australia would be minimal.

[hughie]

T
his said, maybe it would be easier to grind the round ones on a metal lathe, have you tried that hughie?


Actually if you fix the round cutters on the end of a piece of rod ie like a plate on the end of a stick. Then put the rod in your pistol drill, start the grinder and run the cutter up against the grinding wheel. Doing this way its easy to grind any angle and get a uniform finish to boot.
It does involve drilling and tapping a thread in the end of the rod, but you now have a good sharpening jig for any round cutters.

[Frank&Earnest]

T

Actually if you fix the round cutters on the end of a piece of rod ie like a plate on the end of a stick. Then put the rod in your pistol drill, start the grinder and run the cutter up against the grinding wheel. Doing this way its easy to grind any angle and get a uniform finish to boot.
It does involve drilling and tapping a thread in the end of the rod, but you now have a good sharpening jig for any round cutters.

Thanks hughie, excellent idea. I would have used it just a few minutes ago for another task: milling the square shoulder of the screws for the GPW chuck jaws. I thought I had spares but could not find them, and the screws that I bought for making the insert tools are exactly the same but do not have the square shoulder. Doing it by hand (holding them with the hex key and rolling) still works, because even if they are not precise to the micron the chamfer centres them anyway, but your way would certainly give better results.

[jefferson]

T

Actually if you fix the round cutters on the end of a piece of rod ie like a plate on the end of a stick. Then put the rod in your pistol drill, start the grinder and run the cutter up against the grinding wheel. Doing this way its easy to grind any angle and get a uniform finish to boot.
It does involve drilling and tapping a thread in the end of the rod, but you now have a good sharpening jig for any round cutters.

Hughie,

I think if I get one of the new black wheels for the Tormek, I can use the shortened version of the Tormek bowl gouge jig to sharpen tungsten tipped bits.

If I remember, I'll take one down to 's and see how we go. Mind you, I'm still on my first round insert from EasyWood tools and it's still sharp. :rolleyes:

[hughie]

I think if I get one of the new black wheels for the Tormek, I can use the shortened version of the Tormek bowl gouge jig to sharpen tungsten tipped bits.

Check to see if its rated to grind TCT,if its not you will cause the well to glaze over and you may have dress the wheel or alternately it will rip away your wheel. Generally speaking the wheel you need is green on colour and is called a Silicon Carbide wheel ands it primary use is to grind tungsten carbide and nothing else

[steck]

There was a very good source for them from the US on eBay for a while (seller garyet3 (http://myworld.ebay.com.au/garyet3&ssPageName=STRK:MEFSX:SELLERID) ) but he is not currently active.

...

I have been following this thread with interest. I have no idea how to make my own tools but perhaps one day.... Anyway, thanks for the thread!
I just noticed that Ebay seller Garyet3 is back trading on ebay. He has a range of sizes.
Carbide Insert Knives 14mm x 14mm x 2mm #IC-2014144 - eBay (item 130276180433 end time Oct-11-09 20:52:47 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130276180433&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:en#ht_593wt_941)

[Frank&Earnest]

I have been following this thread with interest. I have no idea how to make my own tools but perhaps one day.... Anyway, thanks for the thread!
I just noticed that Ebay seller Garyet3 is back trading on ebay. He has a range of sizes.
Carbide Insert Knives 14mm x 14mm x 2mm #IC-2014144 - eBay (item 130276180433 end time Oct-11-09 20:52:47 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130276180433&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:en#ht_593wt_941)

:o They are twice the price I paid here!

[steck]

:o They are twice the price I paid here!

That is $15.40 for 10 or $1.54 each. I don't know about postage though.

[Frank&Earnest]

That is $15.40 for 10 or $1.54 each. I don't know about postage though.

Ok, I made a fool of myself. Not the first one and won't be the last, if I keep shooting from the hip. :- To my defence, after reading the bottom of the page I should have read before, they are the only ones that cheap, all the other sizes cost double or more. I have 8 left of these, but I have moved to the thicker 14.3 mm squares, that they also sell . In large quantities the price would indeed be competitive, if the quality is the same. Thanks for the referral. :2tsup:

[NeilS]

....they are the only ones that cheap, all the other sizes cost double or more. I have 8 left of these, but I have moved to the thicker 14.3 mm squares, that they also sell . In large quantities the price would indeed be competitive, if the quality is the same. ....

It was never clear to me why his 12x12x1.5mm and 14x14x2.0mm inserts were so much cheaper than his other sizes. The thicknesses don't explain it alone. Perhaps those are the most popular sizes and there is some volume/cost factor.

He claims the inserts are C-3 grade (same as that used in TC circular saw blades) so the quality should be OK for woodturning.

Being so light and small, the shipping costs shouldn't be a killer. If taped flat on a piece of cardboard (the way Cliff posted his out) and sent in a standard postage envelope, the postage (and handling) costs should be reasonable if they agreed to do it that way.

Frank - I'm not sure that there is an advantage in going with a thicker insert (ie 2.5mm instead of 2mm). What do you think? Haven't heard of anyone having snapping problems with any of their inserts.

Putting aside peoples tool handling preferences, what I'm not clear about at this stage is the relative cost-benefit of an insert tool compared to other turning tools. eg how many inserts would be used compared to 1mm of HSS steel on another tool (eg gouge or oland tip) and what is the relative cost of each. The initial cost of a TC insert tool, if you make your own bar, is a plus. But over the longer haul? I'm not so sure.

Hoping to sort that out a bit more in my mind when we play around with the TC insert tools this arvo down at your place Frank. Looking forward to that.

....

[Frank&Earnest]

Well, guys, here it is. After a very enjoyable visit by Neil, these were the outcomes, as I see them.

- We agreed that a cost comparison between one insert tool and one standard HSS tool is not really indicative. If an insert costs $7 and an HSS gouge costs $70, will the gouge be consumed before or after ten inserts are consumed? For the majority of retired hobbyists like ourselves the answer, alas, is that we will be consumed before either.:( The real point is that if one insert can do reasonably the job of many tools without the need ever to sharpen them, even a hacker like me can enjoy turning at a fraction of the cost.

- Versatility was no context. After seeing how the insert tool can be used to turn a finial or a biconvex pendant, Neil declined to touch either, with any tool. Given that he is a much better turner than I am, I think this counts as score one for the inserts. :D

- We ended up testing the insert tool limitations in the least favourable circumstances, that is for turning green softish wood, using our different techniques. I use the tool as a scalpel, Neil uses it as a bayonet. I think that he would have won World War I singlehanded with it, because in his hands it becomes a Weapon of Mass Destruction. :U. The following pictures are submitted as evidence.

1) Neil's approach at 50 degrees angle and the 14mm wide shavings he produces
2) my approach at 92 degrees angle and the thin shavings I produce
3) unskilled cut at 92 degrees leaves small patches of tearing in soft wood
4) using the insert tool more expertly with the grain reduces the tearing to almost nothing :-
5) finishing with a gouge provides a very slight improvement as tearing is concerned but leaves a more undulated surface. Conclusion: best overall strategy appear to be to use the insert tool with skill :rolleyes: and resolve the minor tearing in soft wood by sanding when dry.

6) Test of effectiveness: amount hogged out by me in one minute
7) amount hogged by Neil in another minute. No prisoners taken :D
8) another quick pass needed to clean out the massacre. Conclusion: the more acute the angle, the more aggressive the cut.The more scraper like the angle, the better the finish. Not really a surprise. In the end, though, the difference for a small bowl is rather immaterial.

The real benefit of the day for me, however, was the wealth of advice taken from a semi-professional turner who can actually sell what he produces. Thanks Neil, now let's hear your version of the story!:wink:

[NeilS]

... Neil, now let's hear your version of the story!:wink:

Yes, a very enjoyable afternoon, thanks.

I managed to cover Frank's immaculate workshop from end to end with shavings, rearranged his workshop, break his equipment, hog his lathe, sharpen his gouges to suit my preferences and criticized his work...:C

He, in return, generously gave me another insert tool that he made for me, an armload of wood to take home (including cherry, yum) and opened his liqueur cabinet for me...:U

Now, about that insert tool that was the reason for our get together. I must say that Frank uses it to do things that would never have occurred to me, like turning weeny little finials in very fine detail. Whereas, I have only ever used it to quickly hog the meat off green bowl blanks, which it does faster than any other tool in my rack.

On the other hand, Frank uses it to both start and finish the job, with a final fine scrape that produces wispy thin fluff off the tool. I think he would use nothing else if he could get his hands on some round inserts....wouldn't be surprised to see some Hamlet gouges and skews going up for sale soon...:U

Watching Frank using the tool I observed that most of his cutting is done on the sides of the insert while making lateral sweep with the tool, a bit like a pull cut with the wings of a gouge. As Frank has observed, I tend to use it as if I was doing a push cut with a gouge (bevel rubbing), hence the difference in the shavings in the above pics.

Couldn't believe it when Frank told me that he is still using the same insert that he started with. Reckon that I would have resharpened my gouges countless times since then. Definitely one advantage of the inserts.

I also accept Frank's point that very few of us wear out our HSS tools to get their full value. Put together the way Frank does it, the insert tool is an economical starting point for someone who wants to try a bit of woodturning. It's also worth a try if you are an established woodturner to see if it does anything better than what you already have in the tool kit, if you haven't done so already.

For myself, it has a possy in my tool rack for when I have a batch of green blanks that need to be quickly 'processed'. And, it's there should I ever think it will do a better job than any of my other tools, which I don't expect, but you never know...:wink:

....

[Frank&Earnest]

You are too kind, Neil. Apart accidentally breaking a tiny piece of plastic, all the rest was part and parcel of showing me how to be a better turner, for which I am truly grateful. :)

Now that I know how to profile and use them properly, I won't need to sell my Crown (not Hamlet) and other cheap gouges :wink:. They will be there in the unlikely case that I will become less lazy and use them in the rare situations where they can do a marginally better job than the inserts. :D

Seriously, though, I never claimed that an insert tool works better than any other tool. What I think it is fair to say is that it is a very useful evolution of the now virtually obsolete Oland tool and that it simplifies enormously the process of woodturning. Pareto's rule: it achieves 80% of the results with 20% of the effort.

[Cliff Rogers]

I wish I could have been there too. :)

I have a fair assortment of insert & oland tools now & sadly they are gathering rust in the shed. :(

I have a tool tip from Hughie that I am supposed to be reviewing & I really haven't done it justice other than to say it works well as a 'no catch' scraper but I can't get it as sharp as I would like. Sorry hughie. :-

The oland tools & the Vermec cutter head, Item 8 at the bottom of page 3 on this link (http://vermec.tripod.com/PDFs/mpcs3manual.pdf) will always have a use in my hollow & closed forms.

For me & my work, I am totally sold on the Henry Taylor HS1 Super Flute.
It is a 5/8 bowl gouge with a parabolic V shaped flute with swept back wings.
I have 2 of the original & 4 more made by different companies that are the same size & have a very similar flute profile.

The TCT insert tip tool certainly rips into wet wood but so does the Super Flute with a long grind.

The TCT tip may stay sharper longer but the Super Flute is easier to sharpen.

I have some very dry old red stringybark fence posts that I'm working up a concept on & I will give the TCT tips a run on that when I get a day at the lathe.

If I could only have a couple of tools in my collection, the Super Flute 5/8 bowl gouge would be in & I'd probley have a 10mm square beading & parting tool sharpened as a bedan & a 1" round nose scraper ahead of any TCT tip tools.

[Frank&Earnest]

I wish I could have been there too. :)

You would have been very welcome!:)


The TCT tip may stay sharper longer but the Super Flute is easier to sharpen.

Why would you want to sharpen inserts? They last a long time and then you chuck them. That's the idea.



If I could only have a couple of tools in my collection, the Super Flute 5/8 bowl gouge would be in & I'd probley have a 10mm square beading & parting tool sharpened as a bedan & a 1" round nose scraper ahead of any TCT tip tools.

Would you be able to turn a 1.5mm finial with any of them? :D Probably you could do it with the bedan, which is basically what I substitute with the square insert. To produce a full range of curves both the 90 and the 45 degrees setting are needed though, you would still miss that.

[TTIT]

.......Why would you want to sharpen inserts? They last a long time and then you chuck them. That's the idea. .I'll admit they last longer than HSS, but dry desert timbers like Dead-finish or Desert-oak can kill the edge on just one rough down of a blank :C Don't want to bin one for every item I make so I resharpened them on a diamond hone - sort of did the trick :shrug:


.......Would you be able to turn a 1.5mm finial with any of them? :D Probably you could do it with the bedan, which is basically what I substitute with the square insert. To produce a full range of curves both the 90 and the 45 degrees setting are needed though, you would still miss that.Maybe I've missed something in the way you use the insert but it is still essentially just a scraper so how is the TCT insert better for producing fine finials :?

[NeilS]

For me & my work, I am totally sold on the Henry Taylor HS1 Super Flute.
It is a 5/8 bowl gouge with a parabolic V shaped flute with swept back wings.
I have 2 of the original & 4 more made by different companies that are the same size & have a very similar flute profile.

Cliff, I'm with you on the deep V-fluted gouges. 90% of my turning is done with one or another of them. My latest, the Thompson V5/8", is finding its way into my hands quite often now.. Only wish the 3/4" and 1" were available when Ern put the batch order together on the Thompsons. A 5/8" or 1/2" is just a bit light for roughing down large uneven seasoned blanks, and that's when the 1-1/4" P&N roughing gouge gets a work out...:U

Although useful for green blank turning, I could get by without a TC insert tool, but not my deep V-fluted gouges.


If I could only have a couple of tools in my collection, the Super Flute 5/8 bowl gouge would be in & I'd probley have a 10mm square beading & parting tool sharpened as a bedan & a 1" round nose scraper ahead of any TCT tip tools.

This is starting to look like a new thread called, "If you could only have a three or four tools". Searched the forum and the nearest to it was this thread (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/turning-tools-just-my-favourites-only-47789/) of yours, Cliff, lasted posted to in April 2007. We often get asked by beginners what tools they need to start with and established turners will ask for a comment on particular tools or brands, but there may be interest in running an updated thread along the above lines. What I liked about your original post, Cliff, was you stated what type of woodturning you mainly do before listing your favourite tools. Any interest?

....

[Cliff Rogers]

You would have been very welcome!:)
Ta.



Why would you want to sharpen inserts? They last a long time and then you chuck them. That's the idea.
What Vern says.

I get my TCT tip saw blades sharpened but I send them out to have that done.
I don't have any quick/easy way to sharpen TCT.


Would you be able to turn a 1.5mm finial with any of them? :D Probably you could do it with the bedan, which is basically what I substitute with the square insert. To produce a full range of curves both the 90 and the 45 degrees setting are needed though, you would still miss that.
Yup, nup, whatever, I don't often turn small finials.

My statement said. "If I could only have a couple of tools in my collection..."

I really only turn small stuff when I go away to Prossy each year 'cos I only take a small lathe.
I have smaller tools for smaller work but I still use that Bedan a lot.

I could probley make small tool out of 4" concrete nails.
They make good awls & one year at Prossy a bloke bummed a couple off me & made some miniature ring tools out of them.

I haven't tried using the TCT tip as a Bedan.

[Old Croc]

Cliffie, I am going to Ravenshoe on sunday, might drop in if you will be home to have a look at these tools, if you are not going to be home, can you bring them to Prossie with you. I started this topic quite a few threads ago when I found that the Qld Walnut I was trying to turn wore out my tungsten tip from my steel lathe. Hughie gave me real good advice, but I dont have access to the grades of tips he recomended here in the Ville.
regards,
Crocy.

[Cliff Rogers]

Cliff, I'm with you on the deep V-fluted gouges. 90% of my turning is done with one or another of them. My latest, the Thompson V5/8", is finding its way into my hands quite often now.. Only wish the 3/4" and 1" were available when Ern put the batch order together on the Thompsons. A 5/8" or 1/2" is just a bit light for roughing down large uneven seasoned blanks, and that's when the 1-1/4" P&N roughing gouge gets a work out...:U

Although useful for green blank turning, I could get by without a TC insert tool, but not my deep V-fluted gouges.



This is starting to look like a new thread called, "If you could only have a three or four tools". Searched the forum and the nearest to it was this thread (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/turning-tools-just-my-favourites-only-47789/) of yours, Cliff, lasted posted to in April 2007. We often get asked by beginners what tools they need to start with and established turners will ask for a comment on particular tools or brands, but there may be interest in running an updated thread along the above lines. What I liked about your original post, Cliff, was you stated what type of woodturning you mainly do before listing your favourite tools. Any interest?

....

Yup. I have quoted that one a few times.
I've also found the post with the pics of my most used tools here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/gouges-57-varieties-34668/#post339092).

Somewhere I have a BIG list of posts worth reading for turners wanting to talk about tools & jigs to sharpen them.

We could do a thread something like...
'Just the basic tools for my type of turning' or
'If I could go back & know what I know now' or
'If I could only take 3 turning tools' or
'Just my favourite tools' or
'If I lost all my tools, what would I buy first' or
something like that.

The opening post would have to say that each post was the opinion only of that particular turner & the tools they named were for the sort of stuff that they did.
It would have to say that it was not a recommendation of the tools that a beginner should buy for general turning but what you would buy now if lost all your tools & had to start again.

Or maybe we could try this....
"The tool test."
Put all your tools away & start a job of the type that you would normally do most.
As you get a tool out to use it, put it aside, don't put it back.
When you are finished, post a pic of the completed item & the tools you used & explain anything special about them.

[Cliff Rogers]

Cliffie, I am going to Ravenshoe on sunday, might drop in if you will be home to have a look at these tools,.....
Nuh, sorry, won't be here.
I'm going back to Longreach Thrusday & won't be home til next Wednesday night.

I'll have all my tools at Prossy.

[NeilS]

Yup. I have quoted that one a few times.
I've also found the post with the pics of my most used tools here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/gouges-57-varieties-34668/#post339092).

Somewhere I have a BIG list of posts worth reading for turners wanting to talk about tools & jigs to sharpen them.

We could do a thread something like...
'Just the basic tools for my type of turning' or
'If I could go back & know what I know now' or
'If I could only take 3 turning tools' or
'Just my favourite tools' or
'If I lost all my tools, what would I buy first' or
something like that.

The opening post would have to say that each post was the opinion only of that particular turner & the tools they named were for the sort of stuff that they did.
It would have to say that it was not a recommendation of the tools that a beginner should buy for general turning but what you would buy now if lost all your tools & had to start again.

Or maybe we could try this....
"The tool test."
Put all your tools away & start a job of the type that you would normally do most.
As you get a tool out to use it, put it aside, don't put it back.
When you are finished, post a pic of the completed item & the tools you used & explain anything special about them.

OK, I'll start a new thread something along the above lines. I'm mindful that this is Frank's thread on carbide tip tools and that we may be starting to hijack it...:no:

....

[NeilS]

Alright, I'll start then:

CHISELS FOR MAKING SIMPLE BOXES



Jeff - I think we should start a new thread on this so that we don't hijack Frank's thread on carbide insert tools.

I'll do that shortly and perhaps you could re-post your reply to that when it's up and running.

Thanks

....

[Frank&Earnest]

Maybe I've missed something in the way you use the insert but it is still essentially just a scraper so how is the TCT insert better for producing fine finials :?

I don't know, I have only made three finials in my lifetime, all in the past few days and all with the inserts. My first and only good one you can see in the "finial challenge" thread, the other two were just different chucking experiments with waste timber. I suppose a square scraper with an acute bisel could work, but then it would be called a bedan, would'nt it?:D

I don't know if it makes much sense to a woodworker, but I believe that after seeing relatives turn metal when I was a child, I am essentially turning hard wood as if it were metal, with right to left and straight up passes using just the corner of the square. Wich also goes some way towards explaining why I can actually rotate the insert three times and get a damn good use out of the tool. This said, I am now due for a replacement, I could see the difference between the new insert put on Neil's tool and my old one on its last rotation. Which now reminds me that I have not answered Neil's question about the size. Next post.

[Frank&Earnest]

It was never clear to me why his 12x12x1.5mm and 14x14x2.0mm inserts were so much cheaper than his other sizes. The thicknesses don't explain it alone. Perhaps those are the most popular sizes and there is some volume/cost factor.

.....
Frank - I'm not sure that there is an advantage in going with a thicker insert (ie 2.5mm instead of 2mm). What do you think?


....

Thanks for bringing the train back on the tracks, Neil. :)

Sorry I forgot about these questions. I weighed the 14x14x2 and the 14.3x14.3x2.5 inserts. The difference would not seem much, but is in fact substantial: 3 grams and 5 grams respectively, which means that weight alone explains a 66% increase in cost, for something that is usually sold by the kilo (so Hughie said, IIRC) Of course, different production and marketing costs could be other causes.

There are two main reasons why I prefer the 2.5 mm bisel, besides the added robustness: one is that because of the way I use the tool, as you have seen, I have more blade before I actually hit the side of the bar. The second is that the corners of the larger size insert are numbered, wich helps with rotation (with senility advancing, I need all the help I can get :D). Small things, I know, but here they are...

[Sawdust Maker]

This has been an interesting discussion
I'd show you a piccy of my carbide tip tool but I'd have to finish it first - at the moment it is just a piece of ss square bar :doh:

[Frank&Earnest]

This has been an interesting discussion
I'd show you a piccy of my carbide tip tool but I'd have to finish it first - at the moment it is just a piece of ss square bar :doh:
Looking forward to seeing how it develops! :2tsup:

[hughie]

There are two main reasons why I prefer the 2.5 mm bisel, besides the added robustness: one is that because of the way I use the tool, as you have seen, I have more blade before I actually hit the side of the bar. The second is that the corners of the larger size insert are numbered, which helps with rotation (with senility advancing, I need all the help I can get :D). Small things, I know, but here they are...You can run a felt tip pen or 'texta' around the cutting edges top and bottom. This will show which face has been used and rotate accordingly

[Frank&Earnest]

You can run a felt tip pen or 'texta' around the cutting edges top and bottom. This will show which face has been used and rotate accordingly

Thanks Hughie, I had not thought of that.:2tsup: You could put this in the "100 best tips" thread!:D

[hughie]

]

I
had not thought of that.:2tsup: You could put this in the "100 best tips" thread!:D

never thought of that :doh: