Help with my first bowl

[Babytoolman]

Hi Guys,
I am turning my first bowl today and i need some advice.
The Blank (redgum) is now 190mm x 90mm. It started at 190mm x 110mm. I have turned the back of the bowl so it has a 20mm deep part for the chuck so i can turn out the middle of the bowl. What i would like to know is;
have i done the right thing in the preperation?
What is the best tool to smooth the outside of the bowl?
When i start to work the inside of the bowl do i start from the outside in or inside out?
I really appreciate your help. I am waiting for the 29th of August to attend the woodturners guild to learn.

Roger

[smidsy]

Hei Roger,
I am still a relative newbie myself but I shall offer what I have found from the two bowls I have turned.

I have actually found that the bowl gough is quite a good tool for smoothing the outside of the bowl once you have the shape. When you finish with the chisels you will want to sand the bowl and you can get rid of minor marks during sanding. Start sanding with 60 grit and work up to at least 400 depending on the hardness of the wood - I've done two bowls out of Jarrah which is an Aussie hardwood and I found that much finer that 400 grit is pointless but for softer timber you might go up to 1200 grit.
For the inside, what I do when I put the bowl in the chuck (using the bottom recess that I've carved out) is use the live centre in the tail stock to support what becomes the inside of the bowl to stop the bowl breaking out of the chuck. I work from the outside of the bowl toward the centre and leave about half an inch in the centre of the bowl for the live centre to support - the middle bit where the centre is I don't take out until the last minute. Some say that this isn't necessary but I've seen guys throw nice peices of work away because the work's broken out of the chuck and got damaged in flight.

As I said, I am a relatively newbie but this is what I have found so far.
Cheers
Smidsy

[Babytoolman]

Hi Smidsy,
Thanks for the tips mate. I will get to it tomorrow. I must be doing something wrong because the chisels catch on the outside of the bowl as i am shaping it. The live centre i am assuming is the peice of equipment in the tail stock. I will try this method as i am not sure. Should i use the bowl gauge to do the hollowing?

Roger

[smidsy]

Hei Roger,
Yep use the gouge for hollowing, and the live center is the tail stock gizmo.
If the chisels are digging in it may be that you are at the wrong angle.
The way I was taught to turn is to start with the heal of the chisel - the absolute bottom of the cutting edge.
Put the chisel against the timber on a high angle with the end of the handle really low and decrease the angle (bring up the handle) until the chisel starts to cut. This way you get a gradual cut and you are less likely to get dig in.

One thing I would suggest if you haven't done so already is find a woodturning group in your area. I joined one here in Perth and learnt so much just in my first night - these guys have an enormous amount of knowledge, and not just the turning, but things like sharpening chisels.
Cheers
Paul
(AKA Smidsy)

[Toggy]

BTM,

By catching on the outside of the bowl; I am guessing that you are getting "dig ins". i think that you will find in general practice is use a roughing gouge to take off excess & give a reasonably balanced blank. It is strong & heavy & will take a fair bit of pounding. Once you have your general shape and using your bowl gouge; let the heel of the bevel touch the spinning blank 1st, then bring the tip down slowly until it starts to cut. The heel will just sit there & rub all day and do no damage. Basicly use the heel as a pivot to engage just enough of the cutting tip to engage. Easier said than down.
If using a scraper of a gouge too flat you will most likely get dig in. Exciting aren't they.
Hopefully better turners than I will explain it better.

Ken

[Kris.Parker1]

Just on that note, are your chisels sharp enough? Just a thought. And also, maybe you are coming in at the wrong angle, try a straight angle and then work your way around slowly until you get the desired result. One more point, try taking small chunks first that way it takes a bit longer but also stops the chance of taking a large chunk you didn't want to take and ruining your wood.

Cheers

Kris

[Babytoolman]

Guys,
This is it so you can see what your help helped me do.
I have yet to put a finish on it. I am going to use a cream and a wax.

thanks again. It works for me even though the wood has allot of cracks in it.

Roger

[smidsy]

Hei Roger,
I don't see a pic, but hopefully you'll try again because I'd like to see what you've done.
In terms of cracks, I would leave them there. I've had people tell me that you can fill cracks & holes and fix (so called) imperfections in timber but to me this is dumb. To me one of the pleasure of working with wood is the individuality of the timber and the fact that flaws in the timber add to the uniqueness and character of each peice of work.
Cheers
Smidsy

[Babytoolman]

I will try again.

[smidsy]

Hei Roger it looks nice - those cracks add to the character of the peice and it should come up gorgeous with some wax or polish.
This was my first bowl - the timber is an Aussie hardwood called Jarrah and all I did for the finish was wax.
Cheers
Paul
(AKA Smidsy)

[Babytoolman]

Hi Smidsy,
Here it is with some product on it. I think it looks great but i am biased.
Your bowl looks fantastic. I am goint to find some of that timber and give it a go.
I do have a couple of questions you may be able to answer because you did a deep bowl and mine is only shallow.
What tool did you use to go that deep?

I used the bowl gouge and i found it digging in. Do you turn a bowl like that over the bed or do you turn the head and turn it at 90%?

I found that i could not finish the bottom properly because i could not hold it on the lathe once i finished turning inside. I only have a VM120 with the standard jaws. Do you have any other sugestions?

Thanks for all the advice.

Roger

[smidsy]

Hei Roger,
That does look nice.
What I do for the bottom of the bowl is turn out the recess for the chuck and sand the surrounding area before I turn the bowl over. When I'm finished I put advesive felt on the bottom of the bowl which is a nice finishing touch, stops the bowl from scratching the shelf it sits on and also means that the finish of that surface is not critical - just a sand will do.
The felt is fairly cheap and you should be able to get it (if not from a woodwork shop) from a place that sells sewing supplies and fabric.
The good thing about the felt is that it's availlable in different colours so you can vary the colour to suit the colour of the timber.
For my bowl, I just used a 13mm (about half inch if you're in imperial) bowl gouge.
I don't know if you'll be able to get any Jarrah in Canada because it's native to south west Australia - the technical name is Eucalyptus Marginata if you want to try.
Cheers
Paul

[Babytoolman]

Hi Smidsy,
Mate i am in NSW in Camden. So i will be able to get that okay. I am really excited about the different woods and what we can make.

Roger

[Toggy]

BTM. Roger,

I think your digin problems are because you are turning end grain. Claimed to be the hardest way to turn bowls etc.

Try getting a slab of timber or a smallish log. Cut the log down the centre through the heart and turn each half of the log. Is the most common way of turning bowls.

Ken

[smidsy]

Hei Roger,
Apologies for that - for some reason I got it in my head that you were in Canada.
One thing you might want to do is see if you can get hold of a new railway sleeper which is where that bowl came from.
I bought a new sleeper 2200mm x 200mm x 100mm for $30, if you cut it in to squares you get ten blanks at around $3 a piece which works out quite reasonable - for me, at $3 a pop I can afford to kill a couple in practise.
Cheers
Paul

[Babytoolman]

Hi Troggy,
Thanks for the heads up i have a few peices and i will try and see if i can arrange the blank. My assumption is you have to turn end grain at some stage because the side of the bowl will be end grain. I will see how i go and post a reply once i have done it.

[Babytoolman]

Hi Paul,
Thats cool mate. I will go and buy a sleeper and try what you have said. It's a good idea. I went to a wood yard and bought 6 pieces for $45. Which is where this one came from. I also have a large trunk section to cut up yet so i should get a few weeks of turning out of that.

Roger

[smidsy]

Hei Roger,
Get a new sleeper rather than an old one. I got a peice of old sleeper and it was rock hard - an absolute b*st*rd to turn and it broke out of the chuck twice because the hardness meant there was no flex.
Most railways now use concrete sleepeers so you may have to do some hunting. I was told no new sleepers were available and quite by chance stumbled accross a place that still has them - this place was a soils aint soils and I'd been told by two other soils aint soils that new sleepers weren't available.
The other thing to do for the long term is contact the pro tree loppers in your area and see if they can keep you informed as to when decent trees are coming down.
Cheers
Paul

[DWFII]

This is my first bowl...my first hollow form. It's made of New Zealand Rimu which was badly cracked and maybe even a bit spalted. I filled in the cracks with CA and turned the bowl.

The bowl is roughly 1.75" x 4". The walls are about an eight of an inch thick all the way down to the base. There was a small "foot" (?) cut to accomodate a chuck (externally) and it was ever so slightly hollowed out between the rims of the foot.

I finished it with pure Tung and Shellawax.

I know I've got a lot to learn especially about sanding. Some sanding marks are barely visible on the inside of the bowl despite the fact that I sanded to 12000MM.

But my real problem/question is that the chuck not only marked the edge of the foot, it actually chipped out sections of the foot when all was said and done. Anyone have any advice as to how to avoid both the chipping and the marking?

[Little Festo]

Hello Roger,
I,ve been turning for about a year now . When I fist started I bought a few books (Woodturning, A foundation Course), searched the Internet to get as much info as possible and then got some tuition. I found a few good sites, try a search yourself - woodturning beginner articles. I found this site , you could give it a try - http://www.turningtools.co.uk/pdf_files/pdfbook/pdfbook.html
They are pdf files so you need acrobat reader -

I love my turning and it's great to see that you are also enjoying you new hobby. The bowl below is local Darwin Black Wattle finnished with Arbouroil. I would strongly recommend that you join a club or get some tuition. You can only get so much from a book / article, particularly if you are a beginner. All the best and I hope you continue enjoying you turning.


Peter

[smidsy]

Hei DWFII,
That looks real nice.
By chuck marks on the foot, I take it you mean the base of the bowl. There isn't much you can do about this because the chuck needs to tight to stop the bowl breaking out.
If you read my earlier post on this thread you'll see that I mentioned how I support the inside of the bowl with the tail stock - this won't stop the marks as such but it will minimize the stress on that part of the bowl. Another trick is to put adhesive felt on the base of the bowl - this is not only a nice finishing touch but it will also hide any marks.
Cheers
Paul
(AKA Smidsy)

[smidsy]

Hei Guys,
With me talking about using railway sleepers as a source for turning timber, I should point out that a lot of old sleepers were treated with creosote oil as a preservative.
Apparently creosote oil has since found out to be a known carsenogen - that means the crap causes cancer, so be careful guys.
Cheers
Smidsy

[adrian]

I had chuck marks on my bathroom floor a while back. It was caused by not standing close enough to the bowl.

After only a months experience I suppose I can offer a little advice for what it's worth. Whether I use a hollow recess or a spigot for the chuck to grip I usually end up parting the bowl off the chuck making a slightly concave base. I haven't got the hang of using a chuck yet and a couple of times I have found a hairline split on the rim of the recess caused by my overtightening (overexpanding) the chuck. My chuck (Bonham clone) also leaves too many marks on the botom of my turnings, which are usually green wood, so I prefer to part off.

[smidsy]

Hei Adrian,
People here may disagree with me, but when you're spinning a lump of timber (potentially an unguided missile) at several hundred RPM I don't think that there is such a thing as over tightening the chuck.
Cheers
Paul

[adrian]

Smidsy,
There's a lot to be said for that but I am still having trouble finding that happy medium. I'm not having trouble with the clamping function of the chuck but the expanding function is giving me some problems. I have overtightened and caused the split which made the blank come loose. It's not so bad when you are roughing the blank but when the wood gets thinner, and there is a lot more give, the crack that you didn't think was there will open up and the blank really does become a missile. That's one of the occasions when you can overtighten a chuck

[smidsy]

Hei Adrian,
Something that might be worth a try is instead carving a full recess in the bottom of the bowl, leave the middle in the recess - just carve a thin channel that will take the chuck jaws and leave something in the middle so you can grip the chuck on the closing rather than opening.
Something else you may want to try is using the tail stock to support the otherside of the bowl (I described how I do this earlier in this thread) which would put less stress on the chuck.
The fact is that you will always get marks on the timber because I don't think there is a balance between having the chuck loose enough not to mark the timber but hard enough to safely grip the timber.
Cheers
Paul

[Sprog]

This is my first bowl...

I know I've got a lot to learn especially about sanding. Some sanding marks are barely visible on the inside of the bowl despite the fact that I sanded to 12000MM.

But my real problem/question is that the chuck not only marked the edge of the foot, it actually chipped out sections of the foot when all was said and done. Anyone have any advice as to how to avoid both the chipping and the marking?

Nice bowl :D

Sand on slow speed, do not over heat the timber. After each grit stop the lathe and sand with the grain. Wipe with a tack cloth to remove any stray pieces of grit before moving to the next grit.

Use Cole Jaws to finish the bottom of the bowl. You can purchase ready made or make your own.

Search this forum for info on Cole jaws, click the link below.

Cole Jaws (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=8267&highlight=cole+jaws)

[Babytoolman]

Guys,
These are just beautiful bowls and i am encouraged to go further. Thanks for sharing the information. I think it is a wonderful forum where people can ask questions and get real answers and not get laughed at. I am going to turn a bowl with a lid on it tomorrow from Cherry i think it is. When i am done i will post the pictures.

[Babytoolman]

[QUOTE=DWFII]This is my first bowl...my first hollow form. It's made of New Zealand Rimu which was badly cracked and maybe even a bit spalted. I filled in the cracks with CA and turned the bowl.

Mate what is CA?



I finished it with pure Tung and Shellawax.

Also what is Tung? It looks like a great finish and i am really new and am wanting to get some finishes.

Roger

[Toggy]

Roger,

re end grain turning. My post wasn't real clear even to me. Where the problems come in is in end grain hollowing,

CA, fancy name for superglue

Tung. Tung oil; an oil derived from pressing a nut off a chinese tree. Apparently doesn't dry really well by itself and is a bit dull, so is mixed with polyurethane etc to give a good hard finish.

(by nut, I mean the dried fruit kernel; not a crazy tree inhabiting person)


Cheers Ken

[hexbaz]

Also what is Tung?Pure Tung Oil - slow drying and soaks in nicely (needs a few coats; the first should be thinned with white spirit). Dries to a semi-matt finish, so you will need to add some wax if you want a shine.

More info here: http://doityourself.com/woodfinish/wftungoil.htm

[hexbaz]

CA, fancy name for superglueOops, sorry - our Tung Oil posts crossed there!

CA is actually short for the fancy name for superglue. ;)

Superglue is cyanoacrylate (hence CA), which is the generic name for methyl-2-cyanoacrylate - I am sure you will agree that this is the really fancy name for super (aka crazy) glue.

:)

[Toggy]

Ok Ok, I stand corrected.

Was just trying to use the KISS system. I figured that if he hadn't come across "CA" before; super glue was good well known glue.

Ken

[Babytoolman]

Thanks for the info. I will get some of the Tung oil and see what i can do on tomorrows bowl.

Roger

[cliff cook]

G`day guys
The best advice i can give about sanding is to buy a revolving sander from neil.It beats hand sanding by a very long way. As to marks on the foot of your bowls get yourself some cole jaws and don`t have a foot, make the bottom flat or slitely? concave. It works a treat.
Oh by the way if you think the word [B]buy crops up a lot in replies to your questions welcome to the wonderfull world of wood turning(there is allways some new gadget or gizzmo)
cooky

[DWFII]

Roger,

Yes, CA is a fancy name for super glue. It's kind of the coming thing for small turnings here in the states--like pens, etc.. Besides being used for gluing things together and for filling gaps, it can be used as a finish and results in a very deep, high gloss that lasts forever...as near as anyone can figure. It comes in a water thin version, a medium version, a super thick, gap-filling version, and a flexible version. The fumes are enough to make you think twice about using it. Some even use BLO (boiled linseed oil) and CA to make a very fast finish.

Of course I just used it to fill in the cracks.

The tung oil I used was 100% pure tung cut to 50% with mineral spirits. Several coat allowing a day to dry in-between then rub out and apply the shellawax. (Actually, it was Hut CrystalCoat. I used rather than the Shellawax. But they're fundamentally the same thing.)

[smidsy]

Hei Guys,
I use to use cyanoacrylate when I flew model aircraft, one of the common versions is called zap and it's available from hobby & radio control shops.
It is slightly more expensive at about $10 for a one ounce bottle but it actually works out cheaper than the $1.95 for 25ml of superglue because the nozzle doesn't clog as bad as superglue so you get more out of the bottle.
Cheers
Smidsy