Alternative grinds for woodturning

[Tiger]

I have used traditional grinds for my woodturning where for example when hollowing a box, I use a spindle gouge and then a scraper to clean the hollow out. At the Wood show, I saw Guilio with a Soren Berger ground tool that did a pretty impressive job of hollowing his boxes. The tool left little to sand. He also used a Cindy Drozda ground tool to good effect. Along with those grinds, I spoke to another turner who absolutely swears that the Ellsworth grind is the grind to use for faceplate work.

For those who have ventured into these alternative grinds, are they worth it? Do they have any limitations, ie work well for some timbers and not for others? Do you find they complement the traditional grinds? That's probably enough questions for now :roll:.

[Texian]

Could you tell us which tools and how ground (included angle at the cutting edge)? Assume the "Ellsworth" is a bowl gouge with swept back or fingernail grind with 60 degree included angle all around.

[Jim Carroll]

The Soren Berger Hollowing tool (http://www.cws.au.com/shop/category/-soren-berger-hollowing-tool) is ideal for small hollow form or boxes.

The Cindy Drozda tool is a negative rake scraper.

[Texian]

Thanks Jim. The Berger tool somewhat suggests a very stong (and abreviated) version of the hook tool.

[Tiger]

Actually Jim I was going to take a closer look at the Berger tool at the Wood Show but by the time I got to your stand, you'd sold out. Will I be throwing out my scrapers after using one?

[Jim Carroll]

Thanks Jim. The Berger tool somewhat suggests a very stong (and abreviated) version of the hook tool.

Thats probably a good description.

No there is still places for the scrapers but for the small hollow forms egg cups etc it can leave a very nice finish with minimal sanding.

[Pat]

I have used the "Ellsworth" grind gouge, to turn from round blank to finished bowl. I do have to work on the "Scraping" angle to get a finish that minimises sanding, but that is just my lack of skill and patience.:doh:

[Calm]

IIRC Ern (Rsser) did a bit of "experimenting" on different grinds and may have done a thread on them.

Cheers

[rsser]

Well, it isn't just traditional vs alternative.

There's lots of ways of doing the bevel geometry of a gouge. Eg click here (http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml)

It's horses for courses.

[jefferson]

I don't know or turn well enough to know the difference. But I have accepted the advice from the "Board" and only use my bowl gouges at the 45 degree /no 2 Tormek jig setting and it works for me. Except for one - a HT Kryo (12mm I think) - but I can't use the damn thing. :((

At least all the other gouges are the same.... :rolleyes: Well, depending on how much steel I did / didn't take off on the grinder.

And assuming you are back, Ern, tell me how to use those HT beading tools.... Please. (Sorry to hijack the thread.)

[rsser]

If you've only got one or two bowl gouges then 45 degrees is OK; if you have a 'spare' gouge then a steeper bevel helps get round the 'corner'.

Jeff, I'll start on new thread on the HT beaders.

[Tiger]

Thanks for that feedback but from this I take it that most of the woodturning fraternity don't use the less conventional grinds on their tools. I do remember seeing a Ray Key video (I think that was the fella's name) and he also used an unusual grind which helped him hollow out boxes, anyone know what sort of grind that was?

[rsser]

I'm increasingly using swept back wings on my gouges; they offer more options for tool presentation and wood removal. In time I expect that only my bowl 'roughing gouge' will have a basic fingernail grind (or lady finger) and that's so it can be whacked on a simple grinder platform for a quick refresh.

By basic grind I mean what you get when you sharpen on a platform just rotating the shaft.

But there's still a good deal of difference between a distinct lady finger grind and an Irish or Ellsworth grind. One of the main virtues of the latter in my experience is that the relatively short bevel at the tip makes hollowing around the corner easy while giving you other cutting and scraping presentations with the wings.

The 'traditional' grind AFAIK when seen side on has all of the cutting edge perpendicular to the shaft. I've never used this but am told it makes it easier to start a hollowing cut.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

The 'traditional' grind AFAIK when seen side on has all of the cutting edge perpendicular to the shaft. I've never used this but am told it makes it easier to start a hollowing cut.

It just means that you don't have to roll the gouge over 90° to start with the "tip."

I think more people have problems from not having the bevel perpendicular to the wood surface than not rolling the tool over enough when starting a hollowing cut.

Although it's only fairly recently that I've moved away from a near square profile myself! :B But my excuse is I don't do a lot of bowls... :;

[Texian]

It seems that there are many "specialty" tools (hook, ring, termite, Berger, etc.) that do specific jobs a bit better than the more versatile "traditional" tools (gouge, scraper). But many folks lack the inclination, and in some cases the resources, to purchase a specialty tool for each particular job.

Beyond that, the variety of grinds that one can apply to gouges is nearly infinite, especially in view of the considerable assortment of gouge shapes available. Have completely forgotten where I was headed with this, other than if we all had to use exactly the same tools with exactly the same grinds there would be a lot less to talk about.

I actually got a new gouge recently, and reground the old one into what I would call a shallow, very pointy (technical term) detail gouge. Works surprisingly well and the new grind just needs a tiny bit more tweaking.

[NeilS]

I'm increasingly using swept back wings on my gouges; they offer more options for tool presentation and wood removal. In time I expect that only my bowl 'roughing gouge' will have a basic fingernail grind (or lady finger) and that's so it can be whacked on a simple grinder platform for a quick refresh.

By basic grind I mean what you get when you sharpen on a platform just rotating the shaft.

But there's still a good deal of difference between a distinct lady finger grind and an Irish or Ellsworth grind. One of the main virtues of the latter in my experience is that the relatively short bevel at the tip makes hollowing around the corner easy while giving you other cutting and scraping presentations with the wings.

The 'traditional' grind AFAIK when seen side on has all of the cutting edge perpendicular to the shaft. I've never used this but am told it makes it easier to start a hollowing cut.

All of ....:whs:

Most of my gouges are Ellsworth-like grinds. But have to be used very tangential to the bowl to get a good shear cut/scrape using the wings. This is one of the reasons that I do all of my bowl turning outboard.

The only 'basic' gouge grind I use is on my large P&N roughing gouge (for the same reason as Ern), but I do swing the handle out at the very end of the grind to round the tips over to reduce the chances of a catch.... which can be a bit specy when it happens with the big P&N rougher.

I have what could be called alternative grinds on a few specialist gouges that I use occasionally for specific tasks.

Also use an extreme form of negative rake on my most frequently used scrapers (sse post #9 here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/need-tips-scraper-73726/#post750461)).

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[rsser]

Yes, if I recall correctly, the P&N Supagouge has the upper parts of the flute straight or nearly so. That can give you a lot of cutting edge in contact with the wood and make it hard to control, so a bit of handle swing at the grinder will keep the edge convex.

I use the Thompson V gouge for roughing so don't finesse the edge or bevel geometry. It gets a lot of punishment taking off bark and embedded crud and a simple grind allows for a quick refresh.

[Edwards]

I have used traditional grinds for my woodturning where for example when hollowing a box, I use a spindle gouge and then a scraper to clean the hollow out. At the Wood show, I saw Guilio with a Soren Berger ground tool that did a pretty impressive job of hollowing his boxes. The tool left little to sand. He also used a Cindy Drozda ground tool to good effect. Along with those grinds, I spoke to another turner who absolutely swears that the Ellsworth grind is the grind to use for faceplate work.

For those who have ventured into these alternative grinds, are they worth it? Do they have any limitations, ie work well for some timbers and not for others? Do you find they complement the traditional grinds? That's probably enough questions for now :roll:.

Hi Tiger.
The Ellsworth grind on both spindle and bowl gouges is the only way to go if you want to improve your turning ability and just make turning easier.
The Ellsworth grind provides a lot more cutting edge on the tool which allows you to get into areas that are more difficult with a conventional grind. Its also much safer and reduces the chances of catches.
If you lay the tool over so that the cutting edge is lower than horizontal, then it becomes a wonderful shear scraper that cannot dig in. Use this method for your finishing cuts or edge detailing. If you have not previously tried this method then quickly have a go. Remember, cutting edge down.
I have a faithful 10mm spindle gouge, Ellsworth grind, which I use for everything from inside / outside finishing and fine detail work. In other words if I am having trouble getting the finish I require, turn to Ellsworth grind every time.
For average turners like we are, this is the best innovation since power sanding and adjustable chucks.
Good luck.

Cheers
Edwards:)

[Tiger]

<style>.wysiwyg { PADDING-RIGHT: PADDING- BACKGROUND: #e6d8ae; PADDING-BOTTOM: MARGIN: 5px 10px 1 FONT: 10pt arial, verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #000000; PADDING- 0px } .wysiwyg A:link { COLOR: #22229c } .wysiwyg_alink { COLOR: #22229c } .wysiwyg A:visited { COLOR: #22229c } .wysiwyg_avisited { COLOR: #22229c } .wysiwyg A:hover { COLOR: #ff4400 } .wysiwyg A:active { COLOR: #ff4400 } .wysiwyg_ahover { COLOR: #ff4400 } P { MARGIN: 0px } .inlineimg { VERTICAL-ALIGN: middle } </style>Thanks, Edwards. Your feedback is similar to what I've heard from others. Do you use it for hollowing eg boxes, goblets.

I actually tried an Ellsworth grind but the first few times I got some nice catches. It sounds like it's worth persevering with though.

[rsser]

Here we go with terminology probs again.

The Ellsworth grind as outlined by the man himself is a quite distinct grind for a bowl gouge with a specific flute shape. Elsewhere I've posted a copy of his notes on the various presentations of it. And yes, there's a bit of a learning curve with it.

[Jim Carroll]

Have to be care full what you call an elsworth grind.

You also have the Irish grind, the swept back grind and the fingernail grind all have subtle differences in the shape of the tool and the angles on the front and sides.

To the normall woodie they can all look very similar .

As Ern found some time ago he had trouble duplicating the elsworth grind on his trugrind jig { I think, ern can confirm} because of the difference in angles.

[rsser]

Yeah, wasn't the Trugrind but an earlier Oz unit that works in the same way. Prob was reproducing the full length wing (on an Ellsworth Signature gouge so I knew what it had to look like); angles were OK.

[Jim Carroll]

Heligrind or Uni grind

[TTIT]

Have to be care full what you call an elsworth grind.

You also have the Irish grind, the swept back grind and the fingernail grind all have subtle differences in the shape of the tool and the angles on the front and sides.

To the normall woodie they can all look very similar...................Hmmmm :? I wonder which one mine is (close to). I hadn't seen anything more than some pictures when I reshaped my 5/8" P&N until it worked the way I thought it should - still don't know if it's as good as it could be - but I do love it :U. I might show it to and KenW tomorrow and see which one they reckon it resembles.:shrug:

[Texian]

Have y'all seen this www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml (http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml)?

[hughie]

Have y'all seen this www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml (http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml)?

Tex,

A excellent link to a very descriptive section on gouge grinds :2tsup:

[rsser]

Vern, has his very own grind. Think it was Cliff who dubbed it 'the bird's beak'.

[Jim Carroll]

Vern this is why it is easier to say a swept back grind.

If you have seen Neil Scobies grind on a 1/2" P&N bowl gouge it has an almost verticle front then swept back from there.
It allows him to rotate the tool very easy in deep & narrow forms

But still just a swept back tool.

[NeilS]

Heligrind or Uni grind

The Helli-Grind did a good job on the P&N 'U' profile flute, which it was principally designed for, but it struggled with the Ellsworth/Irish flute profile. I had to adapt mine to get decent swept-back wings on the Ellsworth (jig adaption here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/helligrind-jig-conversion-sweptback-gouge-grind-73095/)).

.....

[rsser]

Thanks Neil.

That's the solution but what was the problem exactly?

[NeilS]

Thanks Neil.

That's the solution but what was the problem exactly?

Couldn't replicate the Ellsworth grind (as it came on Ellsworth sig gouge) using Heli-Grind jig. If I remember correctly, tended to get concave edge along wings.

Only had one Ellsworth at the time, so adapted the H-G, as the jig was doing everything else I needed.

The adaptation worked well, but have since bought a dedicated purpose made jig now that I have more Ellsworth-like gouges and given that these gouges are the only turning tools I use a jig on for grinding.

.....

[rsser]

Well, FWIW I can't get right round my Ellsworth sig gouge with the Tormek jig either, not that I've ever cut on the closest part of the wing.

I've just been refining the outside of a bowl out of Camphor Laurel which is pretty dry and brittle. Getting major diffs in extent of end-grain chipping depending on the tool, and all this is cutting close to the tip. The Glaser 3/8 is fairly pointed with long wings and does a lousy job. Much better is a 5/16 P&N with medium wings and blunter tip shaped with the Tormek gouge jig.

Common wisdom has it that if the cutting edge is an at angle to the travel of the piece then a cleaner cut results. 'Fraid it's a bit hard to see in this case, with the shavings and the distance from the eyes.

[Texian]

Ern, This is probably a dumb question but have you tried a slicing cut with one wing of the 3/8 gouge?

[rsser]

Hi Richard,

Yes as it happens.

I used to refine the outside line that way when turning on the Stubby.

But I find it much quicker to get a good line swivelling the head out on the Nova and doing a slow push cut.

[Texian]

Opportunity for me to learn something with another dumb question. What kind of "push cut"? I thought "push" or "pull" cut simply meant whether the hand at the tool rest was pushing or pulling the tool, regardless of the type of cut in progress. Not correct?

[rsser]

No, that's what I meant. Driving the cutting edge forward, away from the body.

By slicing cut I assumed you meant pulling towards the body, rubbing the bevel, cutting on the wing and with the tool shaft towards vertical.

Sorry, should have made this clear.

I'm not comfortable doing a push cut on the wing with the tool shaft about horizontal; the cutting point is around the shaft from the support point and the risk of catching higher.

[NeilS]

Well, FWIW I can't get right round my Ellsworth sig gouge with the Tormek jig either, not that I've ever cut on the closest part of the wing.



Can't remember ever using that closest part of the wings either, Ern, but don't you end up with a little step if you are unable to complete the swing to end of the wing?

I'm thinking that most of us may not do any cutting on the extremities of the wings, however, a proud edge in that area (if I understand it right) may create some unwanted excitement just as a final finishing cut is being made....:doh:.

.....

[rsser]

May cause probs in time Neil but I'd just kind of feathered it at the end of the stroke.

Might need a coarse diamond honing in future.

[Texian]

Thanks Ern. Thinking of slicing cut with bevel not rubbing, a finish cut on outside of end-grain turning like vase or hollowform. But similar to what you said. Handle about 10-15 degrees from vertical, center of cutting edge of one wing against the work and other wing close but not touching. Cutting edge of the wing is 10-15 degrees off perpendicular to axis of the work. Push or pull, left or right handed, whichever helps better control presentation of the edge. This was shown in the directions that came with my Ellsworth Sig. gouge. Hope that made sense. I have a difficult time understanding written descriptions of various cuts. Can't recall if I have used it on cross grain turnings or not.

[rsser]

Yes, I'm with you. Think I'd call that a scraping cut .... just my habit.

The terminology can be confusing.

And just remembered, there is a case where I use a push cut on the wing away from the support point: when undercutting a tenon bowl foot. Pretty much just follow the bevel line inwards.

[NeilS]

May cause probs in time Neil but I'd just kind of feathered it at the end of the stroke.

Might need a coarse diamond honing in future.

OK, understood, that would eliminate any dramas.

.....

[rsser]

Could leave it as it is and claim to have invented the first 'moulding' gouge. Need a flash name; Ern's scrawl gouge prob won't do :wink:

[Texian]

Right Ern. It's a shear scrape, same cut as done with the nose of a bowl gouge. Just covered also in the "shear scrape" thread I think. Sometimes easier with the long wing of a gouge than the narrow nose of the gouge.

[NeilS]

could leave it as it is and claim to have invented the first 'moulding' gouge. Need a flash name; ern's scrawl gouge prob won't do :wink:

...... :)

.....

[Cliff Rogers]

Vern, has his very own grind. Think it was Cliff who dubbed it 'the bird's beak'.
Yup but he says he only has one like that & it is for a particular purpose..... I think it was for opening paint tins. :think:

[NeilS]

yup but he says he only has one like that & it is for a particular purpose..... I think it was for opening paint tins. :think:

..... :d


.....

[RETIRED]

Yup but he says he only has one like that & it is for a particular purpose..... I think it was for opening paint tins. :think:


..... :d


.....:p I use it for a straight cut down the edge and then cut across the base to get a sharp corner of a particular bowl we do.

Try this for a cut on a swept back wing. Support the bevel with the cutting edge parallel to the rotation. Pull or push don't matter.

[dai sensei]

A few shots of one of my chisels sharpened on the Tormek at our BBQ (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f25/seq-bbq--7-nov-107580/index2.html#post1061211)

[rsser]

Tsk. Get with the program Neil.

Changing the bevel geometry is shaping; refreshing the edge is sharpening. Gospel acc to St. Tormek :wink:

[dai sensei]

:q You should have seen it before he started. It had been sharpened by me by hand many times and lost it's shape :rolleyes:

[jefferson]

Tsk. Get with the program Neil.

Changing the bevel geometry is shaping; refreshing the edge is sharpening. Gospel acc to St. Tormek :wink:

Go get 'em Ern.... :D:D:D

So what did you learn, Neil, aside from the fact that likes custard tarts and cream (Julie likes puzzles....)????