Oh god!!!!!!!!!!!!

[the fabricator]

was taking a look on practical machinist today and found a link to a shippign engineering website and found these pictures

makes sure you go to this link, it will completely put to shame any large machine shop you will ever see, if not prove it

William Doxford and Sons - SN Guides (http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons)

[snowyskiesau]

Ahh! those wonderful days before OH&S.
Not a safety item in sight.

[pipeclay]

Its a pity that virtually all the large machine shops in this country are no longer.

[snowyskiesau]

Would there be any large machine shops left in this country?
What industries would still need their own, in-house machine shop?

[martrix]

drool, wonder where all that gear is now?

[pipeclay]

Would there be any large machine shops left in this country?
What industries would still need their own, in-house machine shop?
Machine shops the size of the one pictured more than likely not any more ,although certain companies still have considerable machining capability inhouse,Warman Wier for one still has good inhouse capabilities,as does Garden Island but on a reduced scale.
Unfortunately with restructureing and cost cutting and close downs a lot of the large machine shops of the 80/90 era have either had there machinery scraped or dispersed amongst numerous smaller companies.
One of the hardest things to find in this country is where some of the larger machines have been relocated to,it seems that there are a lot of large machines sitting idle for extended periods of time without being used,not a bad thing as most of the larger machines have been purchased for a very reasonable cost,its just hard to locate a machine capable of large work with short notice.
Also some of the purchases of the larger machines use them solely for there own purposes and dont usually do jobbing work.

[.RC.]

I doubt there would have ever been shops of that scale in Australia at any point in time...Who the biggest ever was I have no idea but they probably resided in Melbourne it being the manufacturing capital..Maybe it was Vickers Ruwolt, maybe McPherson's..

There would still be some big machines in Oz no doubt, that would be used to service the mining industry..A lot would have been sent to China as scrap or China/India for their manufacturing industries..

Probably be a bit of big gear in Perth as well.. Perth being isolated from the rest of the country, it would be expensive to ship parts to Melbourne or Sydney for machining..

[Harry72]

The machine shop at my workplace used to be similar in size... except they had bigger machines!
Very little gets done on site now everything is contracted out, there's a few machines still there because no one else can handle some jobs.

[.RC.]

Any pics Harry??

[damian]

Where I work the walk from my office to the farthest shed is 1.5 kilometers. We don't have those numbers of lathes, probably only 40 or something, and maybe 20 mills, but some are quite large.

I decline to identify my employer because of some stuff I've said here previously. The point is there is still some signifigant engineering capability in Australia, but nothing like we used to have. Part of the reason we don't ahve lines of manual lathes anymore is a CNC machine can turn out work faster and run 24/7.

They are interesting pictures, but I have to ask: would YOU want to work there ? Do we NEED shops like that anymore ?

I don't know. I do know that business isn't about nostalgia. :)

[.RC.]

What industry does your workplac mainly service Damian, or is it a bit of everything.... I am quite surprised there is such a place in Queensland of that size..

You asked would I like to work at a place like in the above photo's...Maybe for a few days, if you were on the one machine doing the same job day in day out and getting paid a pittance to do it (as they would have been payed rather poorly back then) then no, I would not like to work there... I need variety to keep me happy and to stimulate my brain..

[damian]

I prefer not to say.

That's the point. Those chaps aren't doing interesting varied work they are doing repetitive piece work, as it was done before quickly programmable cnc. I've spent many happy (and cranky) hours infront of a center lathe, but I had the good fortune to be building one offs, not doing production runs.

As I said interesting photos and a reference back to an era past. There was a lot of like about "the good old days", but I chose devils advocate so we don't forget while some things are worse others are rather better. I was watching yet another show on fibro the other night. I haven't lost the use of my lungs, touch wood, yet...but I am sure many of use remember the dust. We used to clean drum brakes with an air hose :)

DDT, lead, mercury, ram assisted steering, ball joints that needed grease every 5k miles....

All good fun.

Edit: Regarding your previous question which I only just noticed: Cockatoo Is had some of the biggest machines I've ever seen. Lathes for turning ships drives and such. The railways used to have big shops at McDonaldtown. There was signifigant work done in aus on the old days, it's just done differently now and sometimes offshore. I am sorry I cannot be more open, my employer enjoys a "shoot the messenger" position :)

[Harry72]

Any pics Harry??
Afraid not, its not my dept and cant go in there anymore(OH&S rules), but I'll ask if there's any old historical photo's about:wink:
Its an old site started back in the mid~late 1800's(its a lead/zinc smelter)most things are on the larger scale...

[Ashore]

The machine shops at newcastle steelworks in the 70's to the late 80's were similarin size , the largest setup I have seen though was aioi in japan when they were making sulzer diesels for 200,000 thousand ships , and they made everything :D

[Grahame Collins]

I beleive that photo was of an American shipyyard in the 40s or 50 s.
I beleieve,large scale enginneering in this country generaly died in the bum from the 70,s onwards.

I remember the metalworkers union doing a survey of employers machinery and it was found the the equipment in 75% (can,t rememeber exact figure sorry!) in the engineering shops was over 30 years old. couple with the employers reluctance to train the amount of apprentices required has led to the state we are in now. thats is in places like the mines tradies an earn a $100k a year.

We are currently reduced to importing skilled labour.

Not many many countries train their apprentices as well as we have have in the past.
In the 80's I recall the yanks poaching some of our skilled welders I tarined for the oil drilling industry in the NT. Our tardies atat stage were well regarded by overseae enployers.

why? Because they were trained in most facets of the job. for instance, a boiler maker could stick weld,mig weld,tig weld, mark out, layout, oxy cut cut. A lot of other countries only niche trained their welders.

Australia still has skilled industries but in speciaised areas.
Fortunately employer have started to spend to keep up with the new machinery required but not in skills training.


The pic below may not seem a big deal, until you realise that the spindle bore of that lathe is 350 mm diameter and the chuck is the outboard one of 2 on the lathe.

Grahame.

[.RC.]

That is called an "Oil Country" lathe Graham...Characterised by over size spindle bore with a chuck on either end..Used for threading drill rod and casing used in the drilling industry... YouTube - oil country lathe (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=oil+country+lathe&search_type=&aq=f)

I think employers reluctance to train people was also pushed by the government and society of the time... In the 80's it was considered that if you did not do year 12 and go to uni, you were considered a failure..I know when I left school in the nineties it was near impossible to find an apprenticeship in any manual trade other then the building trades...There was no government incentive for businesses to train anyone...

Fast forward to today and there appear to be apprenticeships galore but we still have that stigma where by Australian society treats manual jobs as only for dumb people.. And of course we have the situation where people with no skills are getting super high wages in the mines driving trucks...My cousin who is a diesel fitter gets annoyed that after a four year apprenticeship and with 10 years post apprenticeship experience he only gets marginally more money then a truck driver..

[beer is good]

Holy Moly!!
I am a part time woodworker and have never seen so many machines, and Gawd, they are big bits of gear. :o

[Grahame Collins]

Hi RC,

This lathe and other biggies are ones used here in Mackay for Coal Country work.They belong to Austchrome a division of Hasting Deering the Caterpillar dealers.

Naturally the do Cat work and also other companies doing such component reclamation such as hard chroming Cylinder rods and also repair and reclamation on full hydraulic cylinders up to about 500mm diam.

The lathes and honing machines need to be big to.
accomodate the large dimensions. As an example ,the block being faced in the lathe was about a metre on the width, 600 or 700 across and about 1200 deep.

The second pic is a 150mm boring bar (diameter ) passing through a steady. Its is boring out a cylinder which can be seen in the background.The cylinder is mounted in another steady where you can see the upper steady roller about 200mm in diameter.

Grahame

[60,000psi]

Walkers in Maryborough (QLD) had equipment of similar proportions to those in the Doxford workshops. Maybe not lathes quite as big as that one with the crank in it! ..but certainly some very large mills, borers, plate rolls and gear cutting machines. They too were a shipyard in their prime and continued building sugar mills till about the late 90's.

As apprentices we used to dress each tooth of the gears with a file, gears so big they were made in two halves to not overload the 50t crane!

The lathe that turned down the sugar mill rollers would take a full 8hr shift to make 1 cut.

As recently as about 2006 they rolled a hub out of plate that was about 70mm thick x 1200mm wide .. I can't recall the exact dimensions, but it was pretty impressive to see two 40t gantry cranes nurse that monstrous piece of plate back and forward through the rolls.

It's been sad to see most of that gear sold off at scrap prices, but that's progress I suppose:doh:


Cheers to the fabricator for that link :thumbsup:
..I didn't think I was old enough to suffer from nostalgia lol

[artme]

There must be a number of forumites who did an apprenticeship at the old NSW Govt workshops, Everleigh, in Sydney, as two of my brothers did??

Surely they were very large concerns.

I note in the last pc. a number of young fellows. I wonder if they were apprentices or recently qualified tradesmen.

[pipeclay]

Eveleigh was there largest machine shop,but then you had Chullora Loco ,Elcar and Clyde also with reasonable sized machining capabillities, as well as numerous other smaller workshops around the state.

[robbo37]

I spent many a happy watch in between twin 4 cylinder Doxfords, (6 cyl too) and not so happy times in the crankcase @ 110 deg:((. Still they were good engines made in England
As well Doxfords were ship builders. Doxfords were built under license at Commonwealth Engine Works at Port Melbourne as well as many other places.
I know we have to move with the times but with the computerised stuff is way beyond me as I finished my 5 years apprenticeship in '57. (What's that, dinosaur you say):?
Robbo37

[4-6-4]

:D well Chaps the talk of large machine shops and what happened to them stired my Memories. I am proud to say I am ex Vickers Ruwolt dating from the early 60's. At this time we were building United States Industries Clearing Presses. These stamped out Car bodies and were sole mainly to Ford and GMH. I saw the Ford ones at Geelong and I went all nostalgic. as well as car presses there were Rock Crushers, Bagomatic Tyre making machines. There were 300 men in the fitting and machining departments. 25 Pattern makers as well as the Foundry which was capable of casting all the parts for the Clearing presses. I must not forget the Boilermakers. The largest machines were a 25 foot floorborer, a lathe were the operator moved with thw saddle. A radial drill which the piller moved on its own set of ways. The operator often sat on the job to see what he was doing.
Most of these big machines are still opperating in Australia. Most went to a company in Queensland. But some are still here in Melbourne. Vickers Rouwlts main problemb was nearly all its markets relied on the crountys economics being up. Namely Cars, Tyers and rock crushers. If you Google Vickers Ruwolt there is a web site which features products. The Vickers photo collection is held by Science Works in Melbourne. amazingly they are all glass plate negs right up to the end.
Hope this is of interest 4-6-4

[.RC.]

I have seen many many pictures of Vickers Ruwolt on the Picture Australia (http://www.pictureaustralia.org) site..

I noticed one picture was of a planer with Vickers Ruwolt cast into the bridge...They must have made some of their own machine tools as well..

I imagine some of the gear went to this company in Ipswich?? Bradken (http://www.bradken.com.au/default.aspx)

thanks for the info 4-6-4..

[jatt]

think employers reluctance to train people was also pushed by the government and society of the time... In the 80's it was considered that if you did not do year 12 and go to uni, you were considered a failure..I know when I left school in the nineties it was near impossible to find an apprenticeship in any manual trade other then the building trades...There was no government incentive for businesses to train anyone...


Sounds awfully familiar. The careers teacher said I would amount to nothing if I didnt do yr 12. Was accepted as to start an Elec Fitter apprentice in railway workshops in Melb. Before actually starting the Army Apprentices School said yes so I took it in favour. Main reason was not having to survive in Melb on 1st and 2nd year app wages. The Army at the time could really pick and choose when it came to selecting folks to appr train fit/turn, plumber, mechanic, electrician. It was actually easier to get in doing electronics despite the higher academic scores required to get in.

The late 80's financual issues would not have helped .RC. What was that, the recession we had to have.

[4-6-4]

Dear RC Yes Ruwolts would accept any work which came in the door and if they needed a machine tool and could not purchase it they would build it. I suspect the planer would have been WW 2 vintage when machine tools would have been hard to come by. There was a lathe which I never saw used and I was told that it was for putting rife ling in gun barrels. During 45 years in the trade I have seen and been involved in a few stuff ups. It was at Ruwolts that One such occasion arose. In the Light turning shop where I worked a job for Bolts came up. To my reccolection they were about 6 inch Dia and about 14 feet long. They were to extend a Clearing Press in South Australia. A Greek bloke did the job on a substantial Turret lathe which could pass the material could pass through the head. There was about 2 feet of 4 tpi thread on one end and 9 inches on the other. There was about an inch hole two feet deep drilled in the end for an electrode to heat the bolt up to get that final nip up. I think there were 6 or 8 off. Well the greek was like a Bantum Rooster in a Chook yard. His momet of glory had come. Finally the great day came and they were sent off to SA and things settled down again. One day a week or so later I drove in the gate and there were the bolts back again with the Greek wandering up and down with a stuned look not a happy chap. Turned out that the drawing sent was the wrong one and the bolts were 6 inches short. They were done again but not before the Greek was severly deflated.Well thats enough blathering on I will see you next time
Yours 4-6-4

[.RC.]

Don't clik this link unless you have a couple of spare hours Search Results (http://www.pictureaustralia.org/apps/pictureaustralia?term1=vickers+ruwolt&Submit=search&action=PASearch&attribute1=any+field&mode=search)

[4-6-4]

:D Dear RC You have done well my son. The Glass plate neg collection of VR was in the Science Works museum in Melbourne. I was privileged to start going through this collection which had been put onto computer disc and enlarging on the comments made in the book which recorded the photos. I noticed that the locations on some of the photos were incorect. The pattern shop and the foundry were confused. But they give an idea of what went on. Thanks for the web site Yours 4-6-4

[billrule]

anyone notice a big Herbert lathe among that lot? (When I say "big", I mean to us) I think there must have been an English or US manufacturer of that name too, not just an Australian one.

[4-6-4]

:D Back again Chaps, Bradken was the company which swallowed up the Ruwolt outfit. The name does not feature on the Bradken company's lists now. But the heavy machine tools will. Two ex Ruwolt men are working with me at present one of which installed Crushers at Bogainville Copper and at Parapadoo in WA the other worked most of his life at the Richmond plant. Ending up in the sales team when it was formed. Ah this nostalgia thing it makes you wonder where the years have gone. 4-6-4

[UKGeorge]

I beleive that photo was of an American shipyyard in the 40s or 50 s.

Grahame.

Wm Doxford, Shipbuilders are, or rather, were, from Sunderland in the North East United Kingdom ( Durham to be precise ).
Some interesting links
Report - Doxford Shipbuilders, Sunderland 10/08/09 - UK Urban Exploration Forums (http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=42515)
http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/libraries/Leaflets/Shipbuilding%202.pdf
William Doxford and Sons - Ships Nostalgia (http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=11871)

BTW - my first post after just registering - I remember watching, as a child, launches from the slipway at Sunderland of ships built by Wm Doxford & Sons - happy memories.

UK George

[4-6-4]

Greetings Chaps. The large machine shop thread stirred my memories.I was privileged to work at Vickers Ruwolt back in the early 70's. The are photos on the web. A 25 foot floor borer, Radial drills where the column moved on ways. Big Horizontal borers where the operator is standing inside the crusher frame watching the tool. We made amongst other things United States Industries Car Presses. They are still in opperation at Ford Geelond and GMH. When the dimise came in the 80's most of the machine went to the new owners in Brisbane but there are a few of the Horozontals still in Melbourne. Vickers could do a 50 ton melt of Cast Iron in one hit. Smorgens in Melbourne have that capacity but they are geared up for steel products. Vicker was on the corner of Victoria ST and Burnley street Nth Richmond. It is a shoppind center and office tower now. I go past occasionally and pay homage. Yours 4-6-4

[Nurgle]

from my historical collection. (Somewhere in NSW in the late 1890's)

Health and saftey clearly was not a priority pre WW1.

no wonder you see so many images of people missing arms and limbs. let alone how many scalps must have been ripped off...

I would not even dare to walk into a workshop like this..

but is is curious as to how they kept all the bands on the rollers. heaven help anyone nearby when one broke.

Sandy

[.RC.]

Awesome picture, can you post any more??


People back then probably had a greater respect for danger...These days a lot of people seem blissfully unaware of dangers around them and they probably are more scared from dangers that are never going to happen to them..

The workplace health and safety laws are good and bad, they are good in that they stop accidents and bad in the fact they give people a false sense of security..

[Nurgle]

just a few more.

would you balance on a plank infront of great "Leg crushing gears" ?????? (what was he thinking of.. certainly not his own safety)

or put such heavy steel loads on wooden cart wheels. I even have a solid cast iron "thingy" as large as the boiler on the same cart... man, and al done with real horse power... no deisel...

It is lucky there were any engineers left in those days to pass on their trade..

regards, Sandy

[Nurgle]

just also had to share these also. (Sydney late 1890's or early 1900's)

even though they are blurred and out of focus.

clearly they were taken because of a safety issue.

but would you look at a camera, in a time exposure, in such an unsafe enviroment.

man they lived dangeriously.

regards

Sandy

[.RC.]

More great pictures.. I have to admit those open gears are pretty scary...I would not get within 10 feet of them... Notice how that shed with the steel roller in it is made out of timber, posts included and it has a gantry crane fitted to the posts...

If you don't mind, could I post them in the antique forum in the practical machinist forum???

[4-6-4]

Greetings Chaps. The Boiler thingy is an under fired multi tubular boiler. Quite common in the industrial world. The boiler was surrounded by brickwork with the furnace under the front of the barrel and the heat went underneath the barrel into a chamber at the back through the tubes and out the stack. I worked a Milling machine that was belt driven off shafting at the tramways in Melbourne early 60's. The Pulleys were cambered ie bigger in the middle. If the lacing joining the belt was done correctly then the belt did not come off. There was an idler pulley which rotated freely where by moving a handle you could force the belt on to the idler and stop the machine.The main shaft kept on moving. In the big shops there would have been a team allocated to looking after shafting and belts. There was no tensioning apparatus on these drive belts so when they stretches they had to be shotened to regain tension. There is a saying about the wooden Royal Navy ships...Wooden ships and Iron men. I can see that some of you blokes have led sheltered lives Yours 4-6-4

[Nurgle]

Hi,

this is the really heavy cast iron "thingy" i was talking of.

hate to think how much it actually weighed. or how they would have picked it up if it broke an axle on the road. as there are no portable cranes in any of the 1,000+ of these negs. (over 300 + photos of all the different boilers they made alone.)

the machine shop/foundery were all the machines and things are made had an earth floor... and there are photos of them simply pooring slag on the floor also.

regards

Sandy

[pipeclay]

Being well after the pyramids i sure they would of had some type of mechanical means to pick it up if the need arose before arriving at its drop off point.

[Nurgle]

they would probably have jacked it up. as in the photo below.

but could you imagine the chore that would be... without a crane..

the engineering they did in the victorian times still keep on amazing me.

regards, Sandy

[.RC.]

Hi Sandy, Just wondering what you are going to do with these slides you have?? They are excellent quality pictures and a shame to not see them available for public viewing somehow.. Have you considered allowing the State library of Queensland (http://pictureqld.slq.qld.gov.au/home) to scan them all in and making them available online on Picture Australia website (http://www.pictureaustralia.org)

[Nurgle]

sorry that this may be off topic, but you have started me on on of my rants, and, apologies, as it is not aimed at you...

many people have no idea what is going on behind the scenes in many places like museums etc. I do, as I have been caught up in it, and been read the official secrets act 3 times to try and shut me up... (ill bet you didnt know a lot of things donated to state museums end up in government contracted destruction furnaces, if the deem then dont need them, etc.. that lots of very rare items have been stolen from within many museums. One curator of the AWN was actualy caught selling the Naval swords out of the display cases, still with the property tag on them. it is done so blatently and openly. etc.)

The Qld gov has tried to confiscate my collection TWICE. (because my collection rates in the top 10 in the world, in its field Photographica. In a 1991 celebration of the first photo in Australia, which I paid out of my own pocket to celebrate, at a histori display, the famous Power house museum could not put in even 20% of the exhibits. over half of all the exhibits came from MY collection alone)

Qld just passed through its 150th birthday, and they set up a special fund to dole out money for celibrations of this states history... all except me. the legislations was so set up, that I could not apply for any grant.!!! yet painting traffic light control boxes did. I even protested outside state parliament, and they tried to move me, depite police lisence to protest. (I did not even make the minimum income for the last decade. I am assets rich, but strapped for cash)

yet I own history of Qld & australia no one knows or cares about; The gun battle if the Indorropilly Rail bridge during WW1, russian troops in Sydney during WW1 (The AWN tell me it never happend.!!!. yet I have photos.), etc. there have bene many books about the Coo-ee marches in NSW, but the only photo of a genuine Coo-ee flag in Qld, even the Qld barracks are not interested. Hundreds of early Qld train photos and the Rail museum that Got $20 million $ could not care.!!, etc. etc. etc...

Despite my collection being over half a million items (55,000 negs by one photographer alone) and negs of some of our stats most famous images, even the original neg of the Gunboat Paloma washed up in the 1893 Flood (the martime museum could care less). I could not get a cracker out of the government to put on a display... The Ipswich Library wanted to put my entire collection on line, but the insisted that i MUST sign over copright to all th eimages to them for that service, and give them 70 Meg size files of all images.. they are off their rocker... as many other state librares are. I hold almost a thousand images of small WA town Whim Creek in the 1890's. the state library there returned my cd of the images, to busy to even look at...)

I even paid dearly out of my own pocket to put on a display of Qld history at a friends studio. no one turned up... well about 40 people... (when I put the exact sam images, un retouched and small size on display in 1974, I had 17,000 people view them...)

I loaned the state library 8 very valuable items for a display, because the Qld museum collection is so poor (30 pages of paper work for this loan) they gave me back 7 items... (took another two months and at my expence to get back the last item) and then no thanks for the loan...

I have been refused access to photos at the QLD stat library. friends have been refused access to MY books at that library. The federal National Library is right now selling photostat copies of my book, and even a photo taken by me, with out even asking me. etc...

sorry, for my rant, as you are unaware of what Gove depts will do when these little hitlers are given unlimited powers. (I have recieved a recent letter they want "...To come out to my collection and select what they want to keep..." (quote from the Qld arts minister office.) I tried to rally australia against the Movable objects heritage act in the 1980's, but no one would believe me.

the above is not even a fraction of what they have done to me alone, and I am only one collector... and they are doing it to others.

If the public only knew what was going on, they would never donate anything to a museum again...

again my apologies for the rant and being off topic, Sandy

[.RC.]

It is a pity the government has gone like this Sandy, I know with my dealings with them they can be quite obtuse and we all know what the Qld state government is like.. I personally find those images extremely interesting and I would consider them highly valuable...They show true history, not some rendered down politically correct history that we get fed by the mainstream media and government...

It is a sad state of society that so few want to know about them...

[Nurgle]

Hi, the big joke is my collection is as large as it is BECAUSE of places like the qld museum.

My big item, the worlds largest wooden camera left in existence, was offered free to the qld museum. they turne d it down knowing it would be sent to destruction. I saved it, and have embarresed them about that ever since.

and that is why they are taking it out on me. They are not the only ones. I have been given lots to preserve, by people that have tried to donat rare items to federal museums, and been treated so much like dirt (as the gov does to me) that they have simply given me the items instead. (and I know too much about realy rare items that were originaly taken into federal musuems (personlay shown to my by the original owners thirty years ago) that I have since seen on private sale... I realy want a Royal comission into it, but then I know what they would do as revenge... so it stands as a stalemate at present)

I did offer to set it all up as a museum for them, but a donation goes with conditions. which they dont like. that is why they want to confiscate it, as they are then free to do what they want, and the joke is there is no tracing what the confiscate. they dont have to give a recipt etc.. I know of large collection in Qld left to the museum that have "disappeared" and not even 10% make it to the museums vaults... and there are many more like that.

alas I am now reduced to re using much of the print boards, trying to make a living, as no one really cares about the images.. not even Qlders I have shown them to. I seriously think I have wasted 40 years of my life saving things from philistines, for what turns out to be modern Philistines...

again my appologies, Regards, Sandy

[Nurgle]

As for work place health and saftey...

If I am going to die, it will be of miss adventure, or miss 1996 or miss Brazil... :p

not because some doctor made a wrong disgnosis or put the needle in the wrong place etc... :doh:

(No joking, four time I have got out of the emergency ward bed and walked home, once after 6 hours of atrial fibulation, because of grosse medical negligence. on one occasion I applied a toniquet to my hand after a piece of wood passed through it, but the ambulance crew was the one that nearly killed me. they took that offa nd simply put a towl around it as that is what they had been ordered to do... my blood was flowing under the ambulace door by the time I got to hospital, and blood pressure was so low they could not get any reading or a pulse..)

But I will survive DESPITE all the attempts of doctors to remedy that situation.. :U:D

regards, Sandy

[4-6-4]

Dear Sandy, I often wonder what will happen to my modest collection of railway slides and negs dating from the steam days in VIC NSW & QLd. Scienceworks here in Melbourne has only the fraction of it stuff on display. I can remember from my childhood and latter experiance a large double tiered display case that resided in the old museum in Swanston st. It was on display for years. Alom the sides of the case were buttons when pushed a clutch engaged and models statrted to move. Now in the posession of Scienceworks it cannot be displayed because it does not have unbreakable glass. The problem is they are interactive museums and children tend to destroy things nowadays.
Have you started to identify or catagorise your collection. It sounds like a big job. Another problem with photograpic collections is getting a print of a neg and the cost is unbeliveable for what you get. The Pohotograpic collection of the Victorian Railways went though some perolous times being controlled by private enterprise for some time. Now I believe it is in the State archives hard to get at but somewhat safe. Scienceworks has the Vickers Ruwolt collection It is cataloged as far as a brief description and when the photo was taken. These are in the main Glass Plaet negs and very delicate. My stuff will probably end up in the State Archives .
Well thats enough of my ramble 4-6-4

[Nurgle]

Hi, my collection wil be auctioned off. My friend the former chairman of Christies has offered because of the importance of my collection, but over a dozen items are world unique, and thus not let out of the country.

my own photography images are all to be burnt.

But nothing is to be loaned or donated to any museum. specificly stated as a condition.

what really irks me is the amount the government will dole out, to people who could care less, eg, the Qld Rail Museum, but wont help those who care to preserve, worse, treat them like dirt.

I offered several images to the Ipswich Railway workshops, who got $20 Million. below is one taken there or the products the Australian Steam Engineers, union float for a local parade, showing all the things they made.

They have never seen this image before. but threw it on the ground, because the person hated unions... not a good historian, not good for the workshops records, and shows they dont even care about whet they are trying to preserve...

HOW could I ever risk donating that to them.???. never.!!! but also the problem of preserving for whom...??. the present generation could care less. and the kids today, the so called future, are mostly vandals... (I have even had serious collectors damage items).

have you seen the story on the latest Qld Museum purchase... I am dumbfounded... lint and lost hair fount in library books... no joke read this sundays Courier mail.... if that is what they consider important..?!?!? rhen I have truly wasted my time...

yes trying to find anyone who cares is a serious problem... and it may never be solved in my life time... I get realy depressed.. Regards, Sandy

[jatt]

Yeah selling them sounds like the best idea, even would sell your own images over burning them. At least they would still be in existance somewhere.

Heartbreaking to break up a collection, but when one looks at the alternatives.....

It would appear from reading thru this thread the museum option isnt a good one.

[4-6-4]

Sandy Get it together lad All of your collection should be scanned and put on a disc or discs and sold so that interested persons like myself can have access to them. I also have a large Libary of narrow gauge railways that is giving me some concern. But enjoy it while you can. I have no descendants who are interested in trains but I do not loose sleep.
Like I said before categorize the collection and burn it on to disc not inflame it.
Yours 4-6-4

[Nurgle]

it took me six months to scan and retouch 90+ photos for a display that almost no one turned up for. (just three shots of 11 walls shown)

I auctioned the prints off after the show, and despite tons of column inches in the press and radio. only three people turned up to bid, and many prints sold for only $15 each... (Cost me over $100 each) raised over $2,300 for charity (cost me over $11,000), and even one of the charities i devided the money among, took down my posters advertisng the auction...

with several hundred thousand negs, that would be several life time, and for what end... vox populi is vox philistenium...

It is good that there is a FEW like you out that that like these images, but TOO few, for the amount of work and expense involved.

so far I have never even covered my expenses. which I derely need for other things. (last year half of all my income went in medical exceses alone)

If it was not for my selling of some of these assets on ebay (which could also take several life times also) it would not be able to put fdood onthe table (whic some of my so called friends SAY I COULD DO WITHOUT..:D. must get new friends..:U)

breaking up a collection if a far better option than having some curator plunder it for their own gain.. and I know many do... (I have also given stuff to so called local historians and local historical societes only to see it up for sale later... I gave 400 prints to the Laidley historical society when I found the negs by the Laidley photographers. recently I found the members had plundered that, and less than a dozen prints remain in the society, and even they they wont share info with me. when I found they have a portrait of the actual photographer in a corner of a sports group, I asked them for a copy... "OH' NO, you cant have a scan of that..." (quid pro qoue, get you know where, but a kick in the teeth)..

the police unit photo 24" x 46" (second form the right and also on the floor) in the middle photo, I donated to a police charity (because i have two cousins in the police) on the condition that it was to be sold, raffled or auctioned with the money going to that charity... aftre accepting it under those conditions they then decided to ignore my wishes and just give it to a retiring officer. what I told them I did not want to happen.. (I demanded it back, as they broke my conditions)

you will generally find when people are given something for nothing, they treat it and the donor with contempt. if they have to pay for it, they treat it with respect. hence the auction.

If I had ever ticket in the lottery they would cancel it... I am making mandarin and extinct language and am now working on cantonese..

regards, Sandy

[Camoco]

HI All,
Back to the original question regarding shops as posted.

I felt heartfelt memories from the photos as they were quite similar in size to the factory where I first started. I admit we had a much bigger array of equipment and had a number of very early NC then CNC equipment, but the general appeal was similar. And that was just the machine shop. We had tooling shops, jigging shops, moulding shops galv shop etc. (many more supporting shops too numerous to mention) There were 2500+ people there when I first started, but admittedly that was a spurt of which 1500 was common.

Sadly now it is just a shadow of it's former self (200 odd people) due mostly in part to the greed of capitalism that was the end of the 1980's. The technological impact had a positive effect on the size of the factory rather than reducing it.

I have fond memories of being in the maintenance department and just remembering which machines you had experience in fixing was a task in itself. We had 50 maintenance workers on staff at any given time, so you can imagine the number of real workers there were. We actively competed with the "cheap" labour from overseas and regularly beat them at contract work as well as our own products.
Now is the time for those around to guess just where this factory was!!!!
Hint. It was not in a capital city.!
Cheers Cam.

[.RC.]

Toowoomba Foundry?? or Southern Cross.... I heard they employed thousands during the second world war and even built their own machines..We have a large number of items made at that place...Most still in use..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/southerncrosslathe.jpg

[Nurgle]

some more nice old machines to look at :2tsup:

Regards, Sandy

(and my guess Camoco's Town was Lithgow.?!:no:)

[.RC.]

(and my guess Camoco's Town was Lithgow.?!:no:)

Ahh yes, I didn't think of that..Another town with that sort of capability would have been Bendigo..

These two VDF lathes here got carted out of the government defence factory there last year.. I know the carrier who carted them Lathes heavy duty and large (http://www.espmach.com.au/lathes_heavy_duty.htm)

[Lignum]

Sandy, your pics are just brilliant. Keep them coming:2tsup::2tsup:

[Camoco]

Damn that was a bit too easy. .RC. correct. Toowoomba Foundry. Southern Cross was a product name given to many of their products. A real shame that the site is to be redeveloped into probably shopping centres by year end (though that has been said for the last few years).

I certainly won't proclaim it to be "the biggest" because at any one thing it wasn't. But I suspect it had the greatest range and being a private and family company, it could tackle anything it wanted.

They managed to build a range of locomotives, small and largeish engines, planes, boats and of course a huge range of irrigation equipment servicing the world (that was only their own products). Over the time that I was involved they owned one of the largest private cricket ovals, many hardware stores, piggeries, the second largest private computer farm in Oz, new and used car sales, and as employees we got to share in the benefits that brought.

They built many of their own tooling machines during the second war due to the poor availability of equipment, and being a foundry and machine centre, they could make anything. Most of the machines they built for themselves were copies usually of British design, but had the advantage of being able to adapt them to suit their needs, and often ended up with a better product.

During the 1980's before the greed meltdown, we refurbished many of the older machines back to original condition. Having all the drawings helped to know exactly what the specs needed to be, and being of top quality, the final result was often as good as new. This occured during the time of "mass production" machine becoming affordable and we still found it advantageous to remanufacture them.

I worked with a few fellows from the Lithgow area and they were a good bunch of tradesmen that liked what they saw when they got into the factory.

Cheers Camoco

[Nurgle]

Funny story. I was doing some product photography at a large engineering workshop near Eagle farm, Brisbane in the 1980's.

next thing the foreman was giving this young apprentice a real bawling out in front of everyone.

the poor young chap had just finished cutting up a pile of work on a giant shear like in the photo below. but it seems he 'nipped' two mm of the end of his long stainless steel ruler on the shear early that day, and this stack of large useless sheets was all 2mm short all around.... (lesson I learnt was to protect your rulers & gauges...)

enjoy the finger crushers... all from the 1920's below.

Regards, Sandy

[Nurgle]

though I would throw these in just to show what they could do with the little horsepower that had available in those days...

Regards, Sandy

[robbo37]

And not an escort car or flashing light in sight:)

We had a lovely Southern Cross diesel engine for irrigation
in the Riverina. (Many moons ago)

37

[dazzler]

Hi Nurgle

Thank you for posting the images.

As for the rest of your acknowledged rant I am seriously at a loss to get my head around it. Its like some shakespearean play of love gone wrong where the victim ends up the villian, stabbing his lover and then taking poison.

Perhaps you should think back to why you started the collection. I think peace and reason resides there.

Thanks again for the images.

dazzler

[4-6-4]

Hi Sandy. If you are looking for a good home for any of your machinery shots let me know.
The ones you have posted are really interesting. I recall a photo taken in the late 1800s of a series of wagons with a new cable for the cable trams here in Melbourne. The cable was about 1 inch in diameter and could be up to four miles long. With a new cable line there was no existing cable to pull the new one in to the tunnel under the road. So they attached a grip to the end of the cable added horses and off they went. More horses were added as needed. The splice when they came to it had to be of uniform thickness because when the Grip man released the cable to stop there ws\as not much clearance in the grip jaws. Any variation could cause a jam and make the car take off. Splices were up to 14 feet long. They still do this in Sanfrancisco. So the technology is not lost yet.
All the best 4-6-4

[Nurgle]

just to show that nothing can stop a practical man (not even termites)

regards, Sandy

[franco]

Sandy,

The photo of the Ford reminds me of one of my early mounts - about 1950. Note the touch of luxury with the seat backs - the Fords were always rather basic!

Frank

[Nurgle]

"As for the rest of your acknowledged rant I am seriously at a loss to get my head around it. Its like some shakespearean play of love gone wrong"

more George Orwell meets Shakespeare during Passchendale recreation... hahaha

regards, Sandy

[graemet]

Harking back to the safety issues of large workshops in the early days of the last century, my grandfather was a 15 year old apprentice in the Redfern railway workshops in 1904 or thereabouts. The grinding wheels were made of natural stone and were up to 3' in diameter. There was no way of telling whether there were any natural cracks in them and if driven too fast, they could explode. This happened as my grandfather was in the line of fire and he ended up with a depressed fracture of the skull, was sent to Sydney Hospital in a coma, and his parents informed of his imminent demise. Fortunately for me, a brave surgeon trepanned his skull and two weeks later, he regained consciousness. He was not allowed to return to his job and there was no compo or sick pay. He lived to be 84, still with a hole in his skull about the size of a small jamjar lid. As young children, we were allowed to (gently) feel his brain through his scalp!
Cheers
Graeme

[Nurgle]

I watched a guy squash his hand a flat as a pancake one day as a young kid. (under a bootmakers 'clicking' machine, used for cutting out leather patters from cow hides.)

Strangley, health and safety never seemed to cover schools, only work places... we blew the wall out of the science lab into the play ground one day, no one was hurt. (mixing nitric acid, sulphuric and glycerine, we tried to use Kaolin as we could not get keiselgur...)

Sandy

[4-6-4]

Greetings chaps, I had my brush with a machine in my first year. It was an ancient mill driven off shafting. I was machining the white metal out of axle box brasses. The arbour had three cutters sticking out. The center one machined out the main bearing surface. The outer ones put a radius on each end. To see what the furthest radius cutter was doing one had to lean across the table. One day in the midst of Winter the near side cutter lept out and grabbed my overalls at the shoulder. In a flash my face was on the table and I could not reach the handle to stop the beast. I managed to stop the machine and when the belts stated to scream another apprentice turned it off. The unwound me to find a very light scratch on the right shoulder and a shredded pair of overalls. I look back sometimes and am glad it was a belt driven machine and not gear driven. I was sent home for the dayand on the morrow there had been a Mirror installed so one did not have to lean across the table. There have been other adventures but I still have 10 fingers and all the othere necessary bits. Yours 4-6-4

[pipeclay]

I hope you reported the offensive piece of tool steel to the tool store.

[Wood en I]

Hi Sandy Thank you for posting the fantastic photos they are a great look back in Autralian history. :2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

Cheers Warren.

[Nurgle]

I am dumbfounded how much of Australian history is covered up..

below are Russina Troops IN Sydney. that is the Art Gallery of NSW they are outside of

and also the troops that fought the Gun Battle of the Indoorroopilly Rail bridge againts german settlers in WW1.. Both of which I have had the highest authorities tell me never happened, (even though the Gun Battle was reported in the Brisbane newspapers)

I am writing a book to be published after my demise "the Secret History of WW1" which will suprise and shock a few people. (eg my Grandfather killed 7 men with a pistol that is a family heirloom. they were his own men.. and he was an ambulance officer.. they clearing house for wounded may have only been 100 yards away, but that could be a days crawl..infact almost all red cross personel during Ww1 carried weapons. and lots of other bizzare stories like that, or that thousands of teenage girls were killed during WW1, deliberatly, etc.... tons of hushed up stuff, as what happens in most wars)

regards, Sandy