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rsser
23rd November 2009, 09:49 AM
The promise of the Tormek Bench Grinder Mount is transferability of setup from dry grinder to wet grinder to honing wheel.

So if you have a new or 2nd hand tool that needs reshaping, or you are looking to establish consistent bevel geometries across your kit you might like me think that the BGM would be a good investment.

And if you're a turner you might expect that geometries can be determined and repeated by following the painting by numbers approach with the Turning Tool Setter (but this little plot line comes in a later chapter of my Frolics book).

The Tormek claim is that once a bevel is shaped on the dry grinder, a quick lick at the same settings on the wet wheel will give you a good edge and waste v. little precious metal.

In this first episode of Frolics I will relate a story about the promise of transferability. The subject is a humble firmer chisel that came to casa del Ern with a sorry steep bevel and knicked edge. The task was to rehabilitate it with a 25 degree bevel and 30 degree 2ndary bevel.

Onto the dry grinder then, using the BGM and the Tormek square edge jig. The jig promises reliable 90 degree ends to the tool.

Taking things very easy to avoid detempering, I had first jointed the edge and then went on to shape the bevel using the jig. Two or three passes at a time on the 60 grit white wheel to start with and then one light one as soon as we were down to an edge. Great care is needed at this point to avoid bluing. Keeping the wheel clean with a dressing device is essential.

Now why would you bother with the bluing risk when another promise of the Tormek is that it eliminates it altogether? Well, I started with the Tormek, which was brand new, but found it very slow indeed and the wheel clogged quickly. Very different from my Scheppach.

Anyway, once the bevel was shaped I went to transfer it in the jig to the Tormek for the sharpening stage. But no, it won't transfer. The chisel is well to the right of the wheel. Hmm. Curious. I got out the older straight edge jig to see if the different design would allow the transfer. No, not it either. So the chisel has to be removed from the square edge jig and the jig turned upside down since only one side of the slot is good for registration. (The same is true of the straight edge jig).

So it has to be set up anew.

Once the wet wheel had done its work I then flipped the mount bar to the honing side, expecting to transfer the jig to that side for a quick polish of the bevel. But no, the chisel had to be turned around in the jig again.

That done Mr Firmer was mounted in the Veritas honing guide to have his 2ndary bevel done. Hmm, after a few strokes a skewed bevel started to appear. I kept it up and finished that bevel and checked the end against an engineer's square. All kosher. So the Tormek set up is the problem, or my use of it.

I redid the firmer on the wet wheel carefully ensuring a good seat against the jig side. Out of square again. I checked the chisel sides; they were parallel.

So maybe the wheel was out of true so I gave it the treatment with the truing tool. Now incidentally this improved the cutting speed greatly, so for other new Tormek owners, I don't think this is in the manual and it's well worth doing before you have my kind of reaction when using the unit out of the box.

I posted these problems on the Tormek forum on which you get quick and useful responses, even on a Sunday, from Jeff Farris, the US sales manager.

On the promise of transferability from dry to wet grinder, Jeff advised that the BGM is primarily intended for turning tools (my emphasis).

Well that's useful to know, even after the fact, so you might avoid again crawling over the manual, the mounting setup, the jig orientation, and whether you should hold your pinkie up when sliding the jig, in order to find the problem. The problem is with your expectations.

It may be possible to deal with the problem by moving the BGM 50mm further to the right of the dry grinder than is recommended in the manual. That will have implications for how other jigs fit that need to be tested.

Now that the Tormek wheel was cutting at a decent rate, it was feasible to do all the shaping on it rather than the dry grinder; Jeff estimated in the order of 3-4 minutes time.

On the out of square issue, Jeff suggested checking that the firmer back was flat (it was) and attending to how the jig mount bar was inserted, both during truing and during jig use. You need to push down at the threaded rod point to ensure it sits square. Now I haven't tried this yet. That will be today's frolic. I don't recall reading about it in the manual; it's the kind of thing I'd remember so yet another crawl through it is called for so I can test my recollection.

Another wrinkle that emerged in this chisel rehab exercise has to do with the square edge jig specifically. This comes with a screw-in stop that goes into the mount rod end so you don't inadvertently slide off it ruining all your good work. The problem is that the end of the rod is tapered (presumably to ease the sliding on of jigs) so your jig drops at that end before you get to the stop, so throwing it out of alignment. Now this didn't appear to be material on the wet grinder because you're pressing down on the tool tip and this is pretty much over the inboard bush and in practice alignment is maintained.

But it is a problem with the BGM as you have to use light pressure to avoid bluing and the jig side can drop a little if you slide it right to the end. So it's not a useful feature and the promise of being fool-proof that goes with it is misleading. It can in fact give you worse results than if it weren't there.

So that's chapter 1 of the story folks.

Elsewhere you can find snippets about the gouge jig manufacturing error (and if you read the Tormek forum, the planer blade jig manufacturing error), the snafu with one retailer thinking the BGM came with two mounts (quickly and ethically dealt with), and the later bonus offer from Tormek of the BGM with two mounts to subsequent buyers.

Wongdai
23rd November 2009, 01:34 PM
It all sounds a bit crazy. Why can't these things just work out of the box?

Ozkaban
23rd November 2009, 02:50 PM
Very educational, Ern. Sounds like you're having fun sorting it all out. Maybe the 160 page manual needs the 'rsser appendix' :rolleyes:

Cheers,
Dave

rsser
6th December 2009, 04:00 PM
Well Dave, I've made a suggestion or two to Jeff Farris on the Tormek forum.

Checked the manual and there's no note about the importance of truing the wheel out of the box.

Checked the wheel face to mount bar and there's SFA difference across the face.

So maybe at sharpening time I hadn't pressed the threaded rod in first.

I only rabbit on about this as the promise is 'out of the box' accuracy and repeatability, and IME now that's not quite kosher. For the bucks you would expect better.

artme
7th December 2009, 05:34 AM
Well Dave, I've made a suggestion or two to Jeff Farris on the Tormek forum.

Checked the manual and there's no note about the importance of truing the wheel out of the box.

Checked the wheel face to mount bar and there's SFA difference across the face.

So maybe at sharpening time I hadn't pressed the threaded rod in first.

I only rabbit on about this as the promise is 'out of the box' accuracy and repeatability, and IME now that's not quite kosher. For the bucks you would expect better.

Agreed Ern! Too much skite by the sound of things.

I wonder how the Jet Compares in that regard????

Chris Parks
12th December 2009, 12:07 AM
When I was at the Sturt School the teacher for our group was less than complimentary regarding the Tormek sharpening system. He never went into details but I gathered he had had discussions with Tormek and they had been fruitless in addressing his concerns.

rsser
10th January 2010, 03:30 PM
To add: there is advice out there that the wheel is glazed from manufacturing and should be trued to remove it.

Jeff Farris from the Tormek forum says not so of the T. wheel but true for dry grinder wheels.

So my experience so far is that the wheel on my old Scheppach (the German made unit) ground quicker and with less clogging than the Tormek.

PS I did get better cutting rates after truing but this may just be higher effective pressure as the truing left grooves.

rsser
2nd April 2010, 02:09 PM
OK, let me say something complimentary about Tormek-land.

Today a batch of turning gouges had to be touched up - somehow they got blunt sitting unused for several months ;-} In fact two had bevel geometries that no longer tinkled my chimes. So I turned to 'the system' - bench grinder mount, wet wheel, honing wheel and profiled honing wheels.

For the full reshaping business, it was possible to set up the BGM and the wet wheel mounts, install a gouge into the gouge jig, and reshape, wet grind, and hone successively.

The honing really only took off the burr. It's too big a jump from the 220g wet wheel for the Tormek compound to polish out the scratch marks. The wheel needs the fine regrading and the tool reapplied as step 3.

On two 3/8" bowl gouges I used the profiled wheels to try and polish out the flute milling marks. That really should be done at the factory, and some makers excel at this (eg. Sorby) and others suck (eg. P&N). These gouges were Henry Taylor and the Tormek compound made some inroads but not enough. Can't expect more than that really as that compound is said to be in the 1-3 micron range so is really too fine.

The profiles on the profiled wheel aren't the best for these gouges - one shape is semi-circular, the other a V - but you can't expect two to cover the range. And as WW has instructed me, a drum sander in a hand drill can be used to get the best compromise for a given set of tools.

The flute polishing has to be done freehand, and that takes a bit of care. The danger is dubbing over the edge. At the tip, the tool shaft axis has to be at 90* to the wheel axis. I found it easiest to overhang the tool and slowly draw it back til I could see no gap between the flute tip and the wheel. That meant looking side on and moving to that position tended to pull the handle and shaft sideways - more practice needed.

So to get the best out of the system and go through shaping, 220g wet grinding, 1000g wet grinding on a regraded wheel and finally honing, it's obviously time-effective if you do a bunch of tools at a time.

Edit: the skew/roughing gouge jig + open seat can be used with the BGM to mount a round shaft diamond point or T-bar dresser, to ensure that the face of the wheel is parallel to the mounting bar. With both, it would seem best to dress with the edge trailing the wheel.

Well that's Ch. 2 folks.

rsser
9th April 2010, 07:08 AM
Ch 3:

3 HSS blades from Mujingfang with coarse machining marks on the backs. Oh lordy methinks, these are gunna take forever to flatten/polish.

I'd done two chisel backs on the Tormek wheel side; a bit hairy to get them to land right with the wheel moving, so while my son was down I got him to operate the start switch after I'd set the plane blade in position. Side resting on the mounting bar and a cm or two of the blade pressed against the side of the wheel.

Did two, about a minute each. Magic. Decided to clean the side of swarf build up with the grading stone. That reduced the cutting power big time. Sod it. 3rd blade still not finished.

kiwioutdoors
9th April 2010, 09:24 PM
Ch 3:
Decided to clean the side of swarf build up with the grading stone. That reduced the cutting power big time. Sod it. 3rd blade still not finished.

Cant you just change the grade back up again to a higher grit ?

rsser
9th April 2010, 10:01 PM
?? I used the coarse grit side of the grading stone to clean the swarf off. Sposed to be the same as the orig at c. 220.

Have done some digging since and it appears you really have to go in hard on the grading stone corner. That'll take 4 hands.

Frank&Earnest
10th April 2010, 09:34 PM
so while my son was down I got him

That is not gentlemanly, Ern. :D

I read your comments on the Tormek as information transferable to the use of my Porsche/Sherwood, hope I am not off track. It appears also that you are a firm believer of the virtues of the secondary bevel. Hope you will discuss this in another thread.

rsser
10th April 2010, 10:04 PM
Frank, is your grinder like this one? (http://www.timbecon.com.au/details/viking-whetstone-grinder-9996.aspx) If so, I haven't had it in mind in describing my frolics.

As for 2ndary bevels, yes indeed with bench chisels and plane irons. And Derek's comments about coplanarity of the 2ndary bevel and the bevel heel for a bench chisel used bevel down make sense to me.

Re turning tools, it rarely gets discussed, but as soon as someone refreshes a gouge or skew edge with a stone or diamond hone, they've got a 2ndary bevel. It only needs to be a poofteenth long if it's on the wood side to provide adequate support for the cutting to take place.

Frank&Earnest
11th April 2010, 12:05 AM
Yep, that's it. I realise that you did not have that in mind, I was only thinking that in terms of learning to use it a whetstone is a whetstone, unless told differently.

I think I get what you are saying about a bench chisel. Still don't understand what's the point for a plane, but do not want to hijack this thread.

derekcohen
11th April 2010, 02:15 AM
Frank, is your grinder like this one? (http://www.timbecon.com.au/details/viking-whetstone-grinder-9996.aspx) If so, I haven't had it in mind in describing my frolics.

As for 2ndary bevels, yes indeed with bench chisels and plane irons. And Derek's comments about coplanarity of the 2ndary bevel and the bevel heel for a bench chisel used bevel down make sense to me.

Hi Ern

Just to be correct technically, that is not a secondary bevel you are referring to, but a microbevel (if small enough). To be a "secondary" bevel it needs to be at a higher angle to the primary bevel. Honing coplanar means that you do not alter the primary bevel angle. A hollow grind allows one to create a microbevel on the working end - but it is not a secondary bevel.

The advantage here is that you can hone a blade freehand and obtain the registration of the entire bevel face.

Regards from Cape Town (back home to Perth in a few days)

Derek

rsser
11th April 2010, 08:04 AM
Thanks for the tech clarification Derek.

It's just semantics but envisaging what you've described makes me think of the microbevel as a 'flat' in that case, not a bevel. A flat on a line with the heel of the bevel with a hollow between them.

Frank&Earnest
11th April 2010, 04:34 PM
Thanks for the tech clarification Derek.

It's just semantics but envisaging what you've described makes me think of the microbevel as a 'flat' in that case, not a bevel. A flat on a line with the heel of the bevel with a hollow between them.

Yes, whatever the definition that's exactly how I saw it in my mind. My interest was spurred by your sentence "The task was to rehabilitate it with a 25 degree bevel and 30 degree 2ndary bevel", which removes any ambiguity.

rsser
11th April 2010, 05:08 PM
Yes, I refresh the edge with a honing guide, not with the full 'bevel' down on a stone (or strop).

But then I don't do nearly as much as Derek and others and can see the virtues in Derek's approach for getting back to work quickly.

derekcohen
11th April 2010, 06:02 PM
Thanks for the tech clarification Derek.

It's just semantics but envisaging what you've described makes me think of the microbevel as a 'flat' in that case, not a bevel. A flat on a line with the heel of the bevel with a hollow between them.

Hi Ern

It is not a "flat" (although I can see where you get that) ..... unless you mean the working edge is coplanar with the primary bevel. The idea is that you hone the working edge with full support of the remainder of a hollowed primary bevel - note that this is only aimed at those who freehand sharpen blades, not at those who use a honing guide. You use a honing guide and so what I do is not suited to your system.

The goal in sharpening strategy (aside from a sharp edge) is creating the edge as efficiently as possible - not only when you do so for the first time (that is the easy part), but when you re-sharpen the blade (that is the hard one).

Efficiency requires the ability to replicate an angle - you do not want to create a new angle every time you put blade to media. A honing guide is designed to do just this - hold the blade at a specific angle. Using a secondary bevel - unless it is micro micro and removed when you smooth the back of the blade the next time - is going to require extraordinary eye-hand control to replicate the facit as you move to the next high grit. It is far easier (and more sensible in my book) to create a microbevel by hollowing the bevel face at the desired angle (e.g. 25 degrees) then, because the edge is coplanar with the bevel face (primary bevel), simply hold this down on the stone and hone away with full registration. Further, for increased registration and stability, I hone sideways (look this up on my website under "Reviews").

This method will create instant converts to freehand honing. I use a Veritas honing guide for BU blades (since these require high micro secondary bevels) and I use a Kell for my mortice chisels, otherwise I hone all blades freehand.

Regards from Cape Town (back home soon)

Derek

p.s. Has the fence arrived?

rsser
11th April 2010, 06:28 PM
Thanks Derek. I'm not sure we're on a diff page of the songbook here but I'm out of puff and not looking to see if I need to transpose keys.

The shooting board hasn't arrived yet, thanks for asking, but I'm sure it will soon.

Were you conferencing in Cape Town?