Hafco Machinery

[jayw81]

Hi Guys,

I was looking at setting up a machine shop at home in the near future and was looking at the following items of kit to purchase for it:

Lathe - Hafco AL-320G
Mill - Hafco HM-52
Saw - Hafco BS-7LA

I've seen quite a few people comment on different items from Hafco and the general consensus is that if you get a good one, ur lucky but most have a few minor issues out of the box. Wondering if I could get an idea on what checks I can perform in the shop before leaving the premises to make sure I'm getting a servicable machine. How do I check things such as twist in the bed or warped surfaces? I'm an electrician by trade but have done machining courses in the past and would like to expand on what I can do in the shed. I'm looking at spending $12-15k on a full setup including tooling for most basic jobs and some raw materials. So far as I can see, the 3 machines cost just under $8k. Is $4-7k adequate for everything else I may need such as tooling, workbench, steel/brass/ally stock, coolant, bench grinder, vice, etc? I'm also based on the southern tip of the Perth metro area if there are any locals that may have tips...

Look forward to hearing back from you guys.

Cheers,

Jay

[pipeclay]

If you have a Budget of $12/$15,000,you should not have a problem in sourceing what you need.
If H&F is the only supplier that you will be dealing with I would think if you were to go into them and purchase all that you require in one go they should be able to do a reasonable deal, either in the way of a discount or possably Extras.
Not knowing what you intend to use the Lathe and Mill for I would suggest that you possably look at a Different Lathe the larger AL336D it seems to fall into your budget and the extra bed length could be a bonus as well as the other standard features.
In regards for things to check unless you are going to buy a Demo model thats up and working it would be hard to do Checks with something allready Crated,all though they may uncrate the one you purchase to look at.
I dont have one of these machines but from what people comment about on this Forum is sometimes the Finish of the machines and the possability of machining swarf being left behind,and needing to be removed from cavities on the machines.
One of the Main things I would check with these machines before use apart from the normal things like Lube,Belts ETC would be to tighten any Bolts or Screws,and Replace any Critical Bolts or Screws with New ones purchased from an Engineering Supplier as most if not all Bolts and Screws that come out of some of the Asian manufacturing sites are of Dubious quallity,also some of there Electrical work needs redoing.
In regards to the tooling that you will need that depends on what you intend to do,whether for the lathe or mill ,but if you were to allow say $1000/$1500 for the lathe and $1500/$2500 for the mill it would tool you up pretty well for starters.
The Bandsaw would only require a few different blade types if thats what you desired.

[.RC.]

There are a lot more suppliers then just Hare and Forbes...keep your options open...

Ron Mack Machinery - Metalwork Machine Tools, CNC Machines & Specialist Woodwork Machinery (http://www.ronmack.com.au/)

[jayw81]

Thanks for that pipeclay. Does the digital readout make a big difference for a beginner? $750ish worth of difference? I was thinking of learning how to use the lathe in the traditional way first and then upgrade to DRO if I felt that I would use it later on. $750 can buy a fair bit of extra tooling for a beginner.. lol. Also, whats the deal with the foot brake? Howcome so many people seem to make a big deal over whether a machine has one or not?

My intention initially was to use the machines for smallish projects but obviously, having larger capacity is of great benefit. If I can get permission to spend the money then its all good eh? Should I be concerned about beginning on machines that are this large and somewhat powerful or is this not really a problem?

I was already intending on doing a thorough clean and inspection of the machines once i got them home, but my main concerns are making sure that the main loadbearing surfaces are not warped or distorted in any way as this can greatly affect the usability of the machine. I was hoping to identify any of these types of issues before leaving the shop so that warranty claims involving machine replacement dont incur extra freight costs. I'm still not sure how to get them home, I live about 60km from the store in perth. Taking machines back would be a serious PITA!! If a good workover is performed on the machines before use, this should avoid quite a few problems right?

Jay

[jayw81]

Cheers RC

Do you know how ron mack are for pricing though? Am i likely to get similarly specced machines for a similar price? The reason I'm leaning towards H&F is because of what you can get for the price and still have a chance of getting a decent product. Decent may be a strange word for a chinese/taiwanese product but still, they seem to suit my requirements.

Jay

[Jimako]

Ive just purchased the AL336 package from H & F at the sale, i just got it home last saturday. If you have any questions regarding the machine just let me know, However i know nothing at all about lathes, purchased to learn on, i may have a few questions my self coming up.

[jayw81]

Hi jimako

Whats your first impressions out of the crate?

Jay

[pipeclay]

I based most of what I have said thinking that you have had a reasonable amount of experience and also by the size of Turret Milling machine you mentioned.
The additional $750 also includes the Quick Change Tool post and Leadscrew covers.
The Digital Readouts are good but for a begginer can make you a bit lazy,but i think if you purchased them latter they would still be reasonably expensive and then you have to fit them,not a hard job but can be awkward,the Quick Change post its standard,not essential ,the Leadscrew covers once again not essential but handy.
Most of what I have said was based on your $12/$15,000 budget.
The foot brake on a lathe is a good item to have,(A lot of people seem to rave over these Foot Brakes on these Type of Lathes,you will even see them on the other Larger Centre Lathes,supposeidly its handy for Threading up to shoulders from what Ive read on this Forum,unless the Manufacturers have Changed the way the Brake works I wouldnt rely on them,from my experience on Imported 3mtr 660 swing machines its a Thin Spring Steel Band that applies Friction to the Main Spindle shaft,similar to the metal Packing strap,usually held in place by 1/2 small cap screws then attached by levers or rods to the plate at the front of the lathe,there no Friction Material in play from what I know but ask the dealer Im SURE they know how they work.
In your case then seeing that you are only starting and are not sure what you intend to do if money is no great concern go with the bigger machines,or on the other hand go for the Smaller Type hobby lathe and one of the Mill/Drill type machines,you could even look at the smaller Bandsaw.
When it comes to tooling the Smaller machines up the cost will be Cheaper but not by a drastic amount,you need virtually the same tools but on a scale to suit the size machines you have.
Would also think if a customer was going to spend a reasonable amount of money on there machine tools the would be able to assist with delivery either free or at a discounted rate.

[Dave J]

Hi Jay,
To check the table over start by measuring the thickness on all 4 corners then to check the table for twist, you swing the head out to the end of the table place a magnetic base on it with the dial indicator going down and touching the table. Lock up the knee/table gibs and the head up then run the table back and forth (Y direction) and get the reading , repeat on the other end and compare they should be the same. If they read the same (which they should or the table is twisted) they should also be around zero as this will tell you how the table is set up to the Y axis. Some people say new Bridgeports tables come 1 thou high at the front and some say they come level. The mill I have (a HM52B) is 0.0 on all of the above checks. After my previous trouble with a couple of these mills they wanted me do these checks in Sydney so I can’t see why they wouldn’t let you. They have to uncrate these machines as they come shipped in pairs anyway.

Dro’s are worth there money and make it a lot easier to learn. Also some Chinese leadscrews aren’t always that accurate and the DRO takes care of that as it reads direct.
If you want to know anthing else just drop me a PM.
Dave
PM sent also

[.RC.]

Cheers RC

Do you know how ron mack are for pricing though? Am i likely to get similarly specced machines for a similar price?
Jay

I would not have a clue, they may be better machines for a cheaper price...

How much are you paying just for a Hare and Forbes sticker on the machine???

Look in the yellow pages and see what sellers are in your area and look at their showrooms..

[Jimako]

Hi jimako

Whats your first impressions out of the crate?

Jay


Hi Jay

Just out of the crate i wasn't disappointed.

I haven't completly set it up yet, i just managed to get it in position last night.
I gave it a quick try and was satisfied, however i recommend checking every nut and bolt.
Also a good clean as i found metal shavings here and there also on the change gears behind the cover. The cover it self was a little lousy, Fibreglass.

Selecting the correct gears through the gearboxes is a little hard sometimes, you just need to rotate the chuck so it lines up.

Comes with a decent set of maintenance tools, but comes with the worst operating / maintenance manual i have ever seen.

Like i said im just a beginner and still trying to work out the feed and cutting charts, there is no guide in the manual.

However i do have a few questions if somebody can help, on the website it said it was capable of Threads, 36 steps (0.4 - 7 mm) and 54 steps (4 - 60 tpi)
However looking at the charts all i can see is metric = 32 steps and tpi = 36 steps and less if you take out the duplicates, is there something i am missing ? ive attached some pictures for somebody to have a look.

Also if anyone knows what the 0 and 16 on the indicator table under the T means ?

[.RC.]

It is to do with the thread cutting dial and means the number of teeth on the dial..

Your lathe has an imperial leadscrew

OK for threads 4, 16, 32, 48, 8, 24, 40 and 56 you can engage the half nuts at any time (because those threads are divisible by the pitch of the leadscrew which is 8TPI), that is why they have a / next to each number..

For the other imperial threads, you can engage the half nuts at the point at where the number says...For example, for 4 1/2TPI you engage it when the thread cutting dial comes around to 8 (which isn't technically right as there other positions you can engage it at but for simplicity just use 8)

For 18 TPI you can engage it at either 2 or 4 or 6 or 8..

For all metric threads you cannot use the thread cutting indicator and must keep the half nuts engaged at all times, and reverse the lathe at the end of each cut..

[Big Shed]

If you're buying that sort of machinery it might pay you to look at Asset Plant & Machinery, they sell very similar equipment to Hare & Forbes, it is where I bought my 9x20 lathe.

Never hurts to shop around.

They're in the same place you are, Australia:D

[Jimako]

It is to do with the thread cutting dial and means the number of teeth on the dial..

Your lathe has an imperial leadscrew

OK for threads 4, 16, 32, 48, 8, 24, 40 and 56 you can engage the half nuts at any time (because those threads are divisible by the pitch of the leadscrew which is 8TPI), that is why they have a / next to each number..

For the other imperial threads, you can engage the half nuts at the point at where the number says...For example, for 4 1/2TPI you engage it when the thread cutting dial comes around to 8 (which isn't technically right as there other positions you can engage it at but for simplicity just use 8)

For 18 TPI you can engage it at either 2 or 4 or 6 or 8..

For all metric threads you cannot use the thread cutting indicator and must keep the half nuts engaged at all times, and reverse the lathe at the end of each cut..


Thanks RC

I understand that part, But on the left side of the plate under the letter T there is number 0 and 16, that is what i dont understand.
And how about when im cutting 60 tpi, it dont show on the plate.

[Dave J]

Jimako,
My lathe is different make but has the same plates (other than the indicator plate). Under A4 on the metric chart mine reads 0.6 not 0.5 maybe it's a mistake not sure you will have to test it.
When I bought my mill I told them they needed to change there add as the travels were advertised as 600 X and 220 Y but were only 560mm X and 160 Y (with DRO factory installed). I was told if you modified the stops you could get those travels? So it wouldn't surprise me with your number of threads.
Dave

[Jimako]

Jimako,
My lathe is different make but has the same plates (other than the indicator plate). Under A4 on the metric chart mine reads 0.6 not 0.5 maybe it's a mistake not sure you will have to test it.
When I bought my mill I told them they needed to change there add as the travels were advertised as 600 X and 220 Y but were only 560mm X and 160 Y (with DRO factory installed). I was told if you modified the stops you could get those travels? So it wouldn't surprise me with your number of threads.
Dave

Hi Dave.

So are you saying im not missing anything about the number of threads, and if i contact them to complain i wont look like a fool ?

I guess i will have to test the A4, i understand asian quality, but if thats a mistake its just plain stupid.

[.RC.]

Thanks RC

I understand that part, But on the left side of the plate under the letter T there is number 0 and 16, that is what i dont understand.
And how about when im cutting 60 tpi, it dont show on the plate.

0 means that no gear on the thread cutting dial is needed..

16 is the number of gear teeth on the thread cutting dial..


With metric leadscrews you actually have to change the gear on the thread cutting dial depending on what pitch thread you are cutting....With Imperial leadscrews you don't have to..

Chinese stuff is always confusing...

[Dave J]

You can contact them but I think they will just say the new model has changed or some other excuse. My lathe is only advertised with 32 metric and 32 imperial threads which you can see below.
https://ishop.gasweld.com.au/ishop/stock/item/580713

If you ring them up tell them that the ad states 36/54 threads and your only has 32/36 threads. Also mention to them that is why you bought their lathe, because it had a bigger range of threads. You never know you may get something thrown in to compansate.
Dave

[jayw81]

Hi big shed

Thanks for that info, I had a look at the asset plant site at their lathes and mills. What I found was that the machines are very similar indeed. Their SM-1236A is identical to Hafco's AL-335 but is $300 more and the SM-1340A is identical to the AL-336D but in this case is $700 more. With the mills, the smallest turret mill from Asset is the SM-KD0VS which has no identical counterpart from Hafco but is most similar to the HM-52D which is just shy of $3000 cheaper.

Not sure what to make of that but it seems like Asset Plant sells the same machines (or slightly different) for a higher markup.

This is just from what I have seen on their sites but even the photographs look the same. The difference is that the Asset machines are Steelmaster branded..

Jay

[Big Shed]

That's OK, but don't go just on their web prices. In your case with the stuf you are looking at buying it would pay to talk to them.

In my case their web/catalogue price on on my SM920V was higher than the manual speed lathe at H&F, but in the end I paid about the same and had far more extras as well.

I also find their customer service and after sales service better than most, and they keep spares and have knowledgeable sales people.

Don't want to sound like I'm pushing them, have no affiliation with them, but they are my "go to" place before I go to H&F.

[.RC.]

Not sure what to make of that but it seems like Asset Plant sells the same machines (or slightly different) for a higher markup.


Jay

Maybe, or they are a better quality machine priced less...

One thing you need to understand is that in the manual machine market there are only a very few machine designs out there...And there might be 100 factories in Taiwan and China making the same machine, some (Taiwanese) making the machine better then others.. That is why it is best if possible to see what you are buying....Unfortunately where precision counts will not be visible to look at the machine...It may be things like spindle bearings on one machine may be European made and on the other Chinese made..Impossible to tell by looking at it...

[jayw81]

Ah no worries, I see what you guys mean..

Will have a talk to them then and see what kind of package deal they can come up with.

Jay

[4-6-4]

:D I feel obliged to get in on this thread. I love threads made on the lathe type threads I mean. Dont get too involved in the total number of TPI that the machine will cut. For instance the 60 TPI Bloody hell that is one extra fine thread and you will probably never cut one. See if you can get a Zeuse machinests Guide, I Think H&F sell them. It will give you all the TPI,s for standard Whit and Metric threads. These are the standard TPI and anything else is an odd ball thread. I came across an odd ball thread on My wood Table saw spindle when I made an extended spindle. But they are rare.
When you go to cut a thread get the beast set up to what you think is right then put a piece of Bright mild in the lathe about 3 inches long. Touch the tool on the steel put a 5 thou cut on and engauge the half nuts on the number one. Cut about two inches and withdraw the tool. Put your 6 inch rule on the shaft with the end of the rule on one of the threads and count the number of threds cut. You do not count the end thread where the rule starts. This ensures that you are cutting the number of TPI that you want and have not made a mistake in setting up. The Boss gets a bit upset if you cut the wrong TPI. Then while you have this piece in the chuck put the tool nearly up to the job, run the lathe and engauge the half nuts in all the possible positions watch the point of the tool when it lines up with what you have already cut it tells you what numbers you can drop in on.This is the way to determine where you can drop in to cut the thread. On some lathes there is a drop in position between the numbers on the dial.
I am at present teaching a complete novice how to use a lathe and he is busting to have a go at threads. You are quite welcome to comw and get some tips at Newport Railway Workshops any Saturday Arvo. Send me a PM if you are interested.
Yours 4-6-4