Japanese knives.

[rsser]

Neil, I've seen pics of Japanese knives in the Carba-tec catalogue. They look drop dead gorgeous. Is this what they call Damascus steel?

Well after three and a half weeks, two phone calls and one email, the sticker has arrived!

[NeilS]

Neil, I've seen pics of Japanese knives in the Carba-tec catalogue. They look drop dead gorgeous. Is this what they call Damascus steel?



Yes, Ern, the second group of Japanese knives in the CT catalogue are made from Damascus metal, or mokume-gane (translation woodgrain) in Japanese.

In small knives like those in the catalogue it has no function other than aesthetics. As you probably know, originally it had the function in swords of allowing the very long hard thin (and brittle) cutting edge to be cushioned between multiple softer more flexible layers of iron.

All high quality Japanese knives (also chisels and plane blades) are still laminated to support the very harder cutting edge steel, but only three layers (soft, hard, soft) are needed to achieve this on two bevel knives. The additional forging required with mokume-gane adds extra cost above the basic three layers, without adding any functional benefit in terms of cutting performance or durability. However, having said that, I must admit that I have indulged myself and bought a few Damascus knives for the kitchen.

Should you be tempted, I wouldn't recommend those from the CT catalogue. They look too expensive for no-name knives. They do have kanji characters engraved into them, so will have an identified maker, but the fact that CT has not mentioned a name would make me very cautious. Would you buy a car from someone who wouldn't/couldn't tell you its make? There are better options, and if you are interested I can provide a few tips on what knives to start with and suggest some makers and sources in Japan.

If you like a good cutting edge, and you haven't done so already, you should try at least one good Japanese hand-forged kitchen knife, if and when you can afford it....:U

PS - see here (http://www.knivesaustralia.com.au/damasteel-patterns.html) for a little damasteel ...:B

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[rsser]

Thanks for the rundown Neil and the warning.

The patterns on those knife blades are remarkable.

Some makers' names would be welcome. I'll be in Hokkaido in Feb and can go looking.

[NeilS]

Some source names would be welcome. I'll be in Hokkaido in Feb and can go looking.



The main knife making areas are in Niigata and Gifu Prefectures on Honshu. There are also some other minor areas on Honshu, near Miki City and Tokyo. As far as I know there are none on Hokkaido.

You could probably buy retail from somewhere on Hokkaido, but will probably do just as well buying directly online from Australia. Some options:

Wantanabe (http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/) - 6th generation knife maker in Sanjyo-city, Niigata Prefecture. I have and love his knives.

Japanesshefsknife.com (http://japanesechefsknife.com/products.html) - Widest selection of the top Japanese knife makers. Any of these knives will be very high quality, but start by looking at the knives under SPECIALS. Those Damascus knives by Tanaka, Saji and the Gekko series from JKC....what a feast!

330Mate (http://stores.shop.ebay.com.au/Japanese-tools-whetstone-for-sword_chef-knives_W0QQ_fsubZ17588480QQ_sidZ119345294QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322) - Japanese temple builder who also sells woodworking tools and knives. Has lower priced knives by Mr Tanaka.

So (http://www.japan-tool.com/) - Australian based Japanese seller of high end woodworking tools and knives. He has some of the very best knives, but have to be patient on response times.

Avoid white and blue steel blades (will rust) if you have not used them before.

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[Woodturnerjosh]

Should you be tempted, I wouldn't recommend those from the CT catalogue. They look too expensive for no-name knives. They do have kanji characters engraved into them, so will have an identified maker, but the fact that CT has not mentioned a name would make me very cautious. Would you buy a car from someone who wouldn't/couldn't tell you its make? There are better options, and if you are interested I can provide a few tips on what knives to start with and suggest some makers and sources in Japan.



.....


Not wanting to derail the thread but, I was looking at Hattori knives a while back and the ones in the CT catalogue look very similar to the HD series from hattori HD Series Japanese Knife,Japanese Kitchen Knife,Japanese Cutlery,Japanese Chef's Knives.Com (http://japanesechefsknife.com/HDSeries.html)
Although why you wouldn't advertise that if it was the case is beyond me!
I could be wrong though.....

[rsser]

Thanks Neil. Very interesting stuff.

Apart from the beauty of a laminated blade, is there any tech advantage over Western stainless knives?

[NeilS]

Apart from the beauty of a laminated blade, is there any tech advantage over Western stainless knives?



The Japanese VG10 stainless blade has some advantage over a European stainless blade. The VG10 stainless is denser and will harden up to Rockwell 61. That is why it is still usually laminated. Typically a VG10 blade can be sharpened to 16deg, whereas European knives are usually 20deg or over. The finer edge cuts easier. Being denser the VG10 will also give a sharper edge that will hold for longer.

However, there is no comparison between Japanese blue steel and European stainless. Blue steel can be hardened to Rockwell 64. On cutting performance and durability the blue steel wins outright, IMHO. I would sharpen a good European knife three times before having to sharpen a good Japanese blue steel knife with the same use, and the Japanese knife just feels sharper on the 'slice a ripe tomato' test.

But, there are some downsides to the blue steel. It is the brittlest of the blade metals, which is fine for slicing but not for chopping, and should only be used on something like an end-grain cutting board. Bones and frozen foods are also a hazard. Being a harder metal, it is also a bit harder to sharpen (but that wouldn't be an issue for woodturners :U ). The blue steel is also prone to tarnish if not wiped dry soon after each use. If none of that puts you off, at least go with a stainless steel outer layer(s) to reduce the higher maintenance involved with a blue steel edge.

A bit long winded, but hope you get the drift.

.....

[hughie]

A little more on the art of Japanese blade making

[rsser]

Thanks Neil. Appreciate your sharing your expertise.

Some time ago I had a couple of high carbon cooking knives and got used to looking after them. And even stainless isn't.

But as you say, sharpening isn't an issue. I've ordered a VG10 Santoku and will chase a VG10 Nakiri.

Hughie, my system couldn't open that file. It's an unmarked up html?

[DJ’s Timber]

Hughie, my system couldn't open that file. It's an unmarked up html?

Try this one (http://www2.memenet.or.jp/kinugawa/english/sword/sword100.htm) Ern :2tsup:

[rsser]

Thanks DJ.

[hughie]

Sorry Ern , thanks DJ. :2tsup:

[rsser]

Woohoo, won a Tanaka VG10 Nakiri on the 330Mate auction.

The Santoku is a Shun Classic from the US.

How would they best be sharpened Neil? I can do 220 then 1000 grit on the whetstone, and have ordered a small waterstone with the Nakiri. Don't know how fine it'll be but assume it's for polishing the bevel.

Nothing much that I've got will measure knife bevels. I can go off what they come with but what do you aim for? Around 32 degrees included angle?

[NeilS]

Woohoo, won a Tanaka VG10 Nakiri on the 330Mate auction.

The Santoku is a Shun Classic from the US.

How would they best be sharpened Neil? I can do 220 then 1000 grit on the whetstone, and have ordered a small waterstone with the Nakiri. Don't know how fine it'll be but assume it's for polishing the bevel.

Nothing much that I've got will measure knife bevels. I can go off what they come with but what do you aim for? Around 32 degrees included angle?

Well done Ern, two good knives there. The Shuns are loved by the chefs. An excellent balance between cutting performance and ease of maintenance. Our family have a few Classics. Great knife. Sounds like you have also picked up a Tanaka at a good price. Nothing beats having a knife that is made by an individual bladesmith. The Nakiri is a beautiful knife for fine slicing.

Now, sharpening is a whole world of its own. Where to start? Perhaps not at all tonight after helping some friends polish off a bottle of '97 Rockford Basket Pressed Barossa Shiraz and a bottle of '99 Tim Adams Clare Valley Shiraz. Better left to a more sober moment.

Very interested to hear more detail on what stone you bought from Nakaoko san. How did he describe/rate it?

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[rsser]

Nothing special Neil. As an optional extra with the knife you could order one described as '40mm sq. Iyo water stone'.

[NeilS]

Nothing special Neil. As an optional extra with the knife you could order one described as '40mm sq. Iyo water stone'.

OK, that stone is from Nakaoko san's own quarry. An ancient quarry that he has begun working again after it was closed for many years.

He rates the stones as follows:

Zebra is rougher grit , medium-soft hardness
Lotus flower grain is medium grit ,medium-hardess
White and pink is smooth grit ,softer hardness
Nitrous sulfate color is dark red ,black ,blue grey and is variable
More on sharpening later. Must go now to do some bushcare on the neighbouring reserve.

.....

[Pops]

Hi Ern,

Well done on your purchases. Hope you can take some photos when they arrive. Would be interested to hear how you go with the sharpening as well.

Cheers
Pops

[NeilS]

How would they best be sharpened Neil? I can do 220 then 1000 grit on the whetstone, and have ordered a small waterstone with the Nakiri. Don't know how fine it'll be but assume it's for polishing the bevel.

Nothing much that I've got will measure knife bevels. I can go off what they come with but what do you aim for? Around 32 degrees included angle?

Back to your questions, Ern.

#220 is good for repairs should you get a nick.

#1000 would be the starting point for regular resharpening. You might find it sufficient for your purposes.

Both knives will come with an initial edge that is as good as you need for everyday use. Try them like that and see how they perform then resharpen when needed with the #1000. If happy with that you have your answer.

Personally I use up to #4000 minimum, often go to #8000, and will even go up to #20000+ with natural waterstones on some knives...:B..., but I like my knives to be very sharp and smooth cutting.

Your new Iyo natural waterstone may take you somewhere above #1000.

On the bevel angles, I tend to make my Santokus and Gyutos progressively more obtuse over time (I think up to about 17° or 18° included angle, bevel width about 10mm) so that they handle heavier cutting (eg nuts and frozen foods), and my Nakiri has been progressively taken back to something as acute as 12° or 13° (20mm bevel width), which allows it to effortlessly slice soft food to see-through thicknesses, but it has to be used very carefully as the edge is so fragile.

I should mention that I am sharpening on flat stones, not on a 10" wheel which is going to give a concave bevel. You would need to take that into account as the concave bevel will increase the fragility of the edge at the above included angles.

Hope you enjoy sharpening your new knives as much as you enjoy using them, as I do.

....

[rsser]

Many thanks Neil.

Pops, will do.

[rsser]

Ooh, wow. Nakiri arrived and have just been chopping for a stir fry.

Onion, garlic, ginger. V. diff ballgame from the Mundial French cook's knife!!

A casual thumb wipe towards the edge to get the small bits off for the next ingredient ... woops :-

Lordy, what a delight nonetheless.

[Pops]

Hi Ern,

Was the Nakiri sharp 'out of the box' or did you need to give it a touch up?

Are you using it on an end grain chopping board or a plastic one?

I have images of some furious chopping of great quantities of vegtables, only to find you have more than actually needed for that stir fry. :) Well, I am speaking from experience here actually, after I got an antique French Sabatier cooks knife, (carbon steel) about a year back, just had to chop, cut, slice everything in the fridge. :D

Sounds like you are having fun there. :2tsup:

Cheers
Pops

[rsser]

Pops, just used out of the box, and on a cross grain board.

Yes, the onion got sliced finer than I normally do just because it happened so easily. The ginger was between young and old so no big effort needed there but with a combo of rocking and chopping it went fine fast.

Tell me more about the Sabatier. Rings a bell from somewhere.

[NeilS]

Pops, just used out of the box, and on a cross grain board.



Unlike most Japanese chisels and plane blades that mostly require a fair bit of work before getting the best performance from them, I'd be very surprised if a knife straight from a Japanese knife maker isn't as sharp as it going to get, usually finished on a top-end natural waterstone. That's been mine experience, anyway.

FWIW, I only use end grain cutting boards for my best knives. It does preserve the edge for longer, at least with RC62+ steel edges.

.....

[Pops]

Hi Ern,

Well, I am no knife expert but I do have a few and quite an eclectic gathering.

The Sabatier I got on ebay. The style and name is based on the original French Sabatier design from the 1800s. Many copies have been made but the one I got was a 'Made in France' version at least, carbon steel with a fairly thin blade, typical. The handle is usually smaller, thinner at the hilt than say a Henckels. I like the Sabatier handles.

It is nothing that special but I like it and it holds an edge quite well and is well balanced. It actually rings off the steel, nice sound.

Have a cheap laminated steel Japanese Deba, thin hard steel in a sandwich of softer steel, is machine made I think. It is a good user on veges. No comparison to your Nakiri of course.

Hi Neil,

Yep, end grain is the go for those hard edges I reckon and preferably not a really hard timber.

Cheers
Pops

[rsser]

Interesting; thanks Pops.

Neil, yes, we have a blackwood end-grain block on wheels but the darn thing gets loaded with fruit bowls, salt and pepper grinders etc. Dunno where they come from :-

It would be a good project to make a board; got lots of blackwood offcuts.

The Shun Classic Santoku arrived this morning. Also v. sharp out of the box.

[Pops]

So Ern, Where is them photos of you showing off your new kitchen tools? :)

Just kidding.

Cheers
Pops

[NeilS]

Neil, yes, we have a blackwood end-grain block on wheels but the darn thing gets loaded with fruit bowls, salt and pepper grinders etc. Dunno where they come from :-

It would be a good project to make a board; got lots of blackwood offcuts.

The Shun Classic Santoku arrived this morning. Also v. sharp out of the box.

Found our large end-grain block just too big and heavy for practical use as a cutting board and retired it to the shed somewhere.

Not having the patience to make up my own, I just bought some from IKEA and cut them up into a few smaller more manageable sized ones. Needed a good drenching of mineral oil before use, and will warp if not washed on both the used and unused sides after use, but otherwise have worked well.

Have fun with the Shun Santoku, Ern. Great all round knife and great handle too.

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[rsser]

Thanks for the tip Neil.

Yes, I was chopping vegies for a roast last night but have to confess I didn't have courage to christen the Santoku that way. I'll get over it.

BTW what would use use the cut a v core out of half a woody parsnip? Nothing I picked up worked well.

[NeilS]

BTW what would use use the cut a v core out of half a woody parsnip? Nothing I picked up worked well.

Done pineapple cores, but not parsnips, so not talking from direct experience here. I'd use the heel of the Santoku (not the Nakirri) and starting in the middle slice away from you to one end, then reverse and slice from the middle away to the other end. Hold the parsnip down on the end closest to you so that you are always slicing away from your non-knife hand. Avoid rotating the blade sideways to prise the core out!

Try that, and any variations of it, and you will find whatever works best for you.

.....

[rsser]

LOL, this gets better and better.

But that sounds like a good way to go.

And you read my unstated concern, about levering out. I don't mind trashing a cheap Mundial paring knife but not the new babies ;-}

[rsser]

Some pics for you Pops.

The Nakiri is the rectangular blade job.

The Santoku blade is c. 7"

This version comes in L and R hand handles by the way. (Actually, the Nakiri is a RH handle too; don't recall any mention of that on 330mate's website but no drama).

The Nakiri bolster is horn, the handle wood.

Not sure about the Shun Santoku.

IIRC they're both 16 layer laminations.

They're so darn sharp I'm looking at more fine stones. The Shaptons look very desirable and not too exxy if bought from the US of A.

[Pops]

Hi Ern,

Thanks for that mate. Very nice indeed. I really like the Nakiri, the laminations look very hand made, beautiful. :2tsup:

I had to go out and find a Shun to check out the handle. Boy do they feel great in the hand, very solid. :cool:

Chers
Pops

[NeilS]

The Nakiri bolster is horn, the handle wood.

Not sure about the Shun Santoku.



Ern, nice pair of knives there.

The Shun handles are Pakka Wood (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_pakka_wood). Food regulations now preclude the use of natural wood handles in restaurants and the like, therefore you now see this type of handle on a lot of professional chef knives.

BTW, if you haven't done so already Ern, give the wooden Nakiri handle a drench of oil before it begins to stain. Mineral oil will do.

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[rsser]

Thanks for the info Neil. Will do.

Just did a load of ginger on the Santoku's first outing, and what a pleasure it is to use.

Used an old habit of guiding the blade with a knuckle and discovered that fine control here is a good idea!

[jarthel]

I was looking at the 330mate auction and the word "heavy DEBA" was mentioned. what does it mean?

thank you :)

[jarthel]

I've ordered a VG10 Santoku and will chase a VG10 Nakiri.


can you please give a link to the knife?

thank you :)

----------------------------------------------

is there a japanese equivalent for a cleaver?

thanks again :)

[NeilS]

is there a japanese equivalent for a cleaver?



Hi Jarthel - welcome to the forum.

The Japanese make a Chinese style cleaver, like this (http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/special/damascuschinesecleaver.htm) and this (http://japanesechefsknife.com/ChineseCleaver.html).

They also make another knife that looks like a cleaver but is used as a Noodle Knife (Soba Kiri) like the ones at the bottom of this (http://www.fine-tools.com/anryu.htm#ziel312730) page, but I'm not sure that they would be suitable for cleaver style chopping.

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[NeilS]

I was looking at the 330mate auction and the word "heavy DEBA" was mentioned. what does it mean?



The Deba is used for heavy cutting of meats, mainly fish. It has a single bevel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Japanese_knife_blade_types_B.jpg)and is only laminated on one side, with the hard steel side being hollowed for faster sharpening (as with chisel and plane blades). The bevel is more obtuse at the heel for cutting off fish heads and the more acute at the other end for filleting fish and cutting meat. It is the heavy duty knife in the kitchen.

The single bevel can take a little time for westerners to get used to.

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[NeilS]

Just had my wife's brother and wife, Noriko, stay with us over Xmas. Noriko is Japanese and lived in Japan until she was married. We got to talking about Japanese knives (funny thing that) and waterstones (toshi) and she recalled that whenever she visited her grandmother's kitchen as a child she would cut herself on her very sharp knives. She said that her grandmother would sharpen the knives last thing every night before leaving the kitchen and that her mother still does the same. Evidently this is what is, or was, done by everyone, or at least in the Niigata area where she grew up. Niigata is the centre of knife making in Japan.

She also recalled that temple/shrine carpenters had a workshop near her grandmother's house and that she would spend hours watching them saw, plane and chisel when she was a child. She has a good general grasp of Japanese woodworking processes, if not some of the technical stuff I asked about but which would not have been of any interest when she was a child.

Currently she is learning woodworking skills from a Japanese carpenter in Los Angeles where she now lives. Interestingly the carpenter asked to have a look at her Japanese knives before they began the lessons. He said he can tell a lot about how someone will manage woodworking from just looking at their kitchen knives. I guess sharp is sharp regardless of the tool.

Anyway, she appreciated my knives and waterstones.

My brother-in-law who is a geologist (actually a geophysicist) also gave me the geological low down on my natural waterstones, which I found interesting.

Also gave my two sons a new hand-forged Japanese knife each for Xmas. This one (http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/pro/nakkiri.htm) and this one (http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/pro/gyuto.htm). Having proven themselves on some less expensive hand-forged knives over the last few years I thought they were ready for a top quality Watanabe knife. Not so obvious from the website photos, the two knives have beautiful (to my eyes) hammer forging patterns along the blades that are not shown by the photos on the website.

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[Sheets]

Hi Neil,

Nice story (and nice knives for your sons). Its great when someone is even halfway interested in another culture and you get to talk about things directly from someone from that culture. I wonder if Noriko-san wasn't a little homesick after seeing and talking about things from her homeland?

Steve

[NeilS]

Hi Neil,

Nice story (and nice knives for your sons). Its great when someone is even halfway interested in another culture and you get to talk about things directly from someone from that culture. I wonder if Noriko-san wasn't a little homesick after seeing and talking about things from her homeland?

Steve

Yes, Steve, I'm sure that is the case.

Must admit I also got a buzz from having someone appreciate the Japanese things that I have that nobody else 'gets', like this Bizen pot which she immediately understood and appreciated.

PS - Apologies for sidetracking from the knives topic.

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[rsser]

What's the bizen pot for Neil?

And re sharpening, would the VG10 steel on my knives be up to ceramic rods do you think?

[NeilS]

What's the bizen pot for Neil?

For pure pleasure....:U

Actually, a blossom jar.

Was a 50th birthday gift from my wife. She knew that I loved this type of pottery (I had been a potter myself and very much influenced by this tradition of Japanese pottery).

How it got to Australia and up for sale is interesting. Was a gift to a BHP exec from a Japanese Co exec back in the early 60's. A normal part of doing high level deals in Japan. Anyway, on returning to Oz the BHP exec's wife was disappointed to get such an ugly thing and so she put it away in it's box where it stayed for about the next 40 years until she moved house when she placed it on consignment in a Gallery in Sydney. Evidently sat there for a long time without any interest (techincoloured pottery was the rage at that stage). We couldn't afford it at the asking price, but made a lower offer which was accepted.


And re sharpening, would the VG10 steel on my knives be up to ceramic rods do you think?

There are very mixed views about this, e.g.:
Ceramic Steels and Japanese Knives - ChefTalk Cooking Forums (http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/cooking-knives/40583-ceramic-steels-japanese-knives.html)
But I wouldn't, for the following reason:


Japanese knives, including VG10 blades, are much harder than western blades, but also quite brittle.
Unlike flat sharpening stones, steels/rods are designed to exert high pressure at a single point. The brittle Japanese blade is more likely to fatigue and crack under this pressure than western knives.
Ceramic rods combine a very fine abrasive in a traditional steel shape so that they can both sharpen and straighten/compact the edge at the same time. Great for western knives, but potentially dangerous for Japanese knives unless used gently with great care.
If used, at least place the end of the rod in an anchor point on the bench with the handle upright (dagger grip) so that the rod remains stationary while working the blade against it.

A little on steels (i.e. the long thin round thing that grandfather used to sharpen the carving knife before Sunday lunch):


Steeling knives (like you see the local butcher doing) is OK for softer western knives. It's mainly for straightening up and compacting the edge as much as sharpening it. Although a good steel should do some of the latter.
Because western knives get blunt so quickly, they have to be touched up frequently. Professional chefs, butchers and boning room workers are not going to stop work, get out an oil stone, sharpen, clean the oil off the blade completely every time their western knife get blunt, instead of giving the blade a few quick wipes on the steel every now and then.
The Japanese have never used steels to sharpen their knives. Sushi chefs will sometimes sharpen their knives on waterstones during use, but most chefs using Japanese knives do not need to do this during the working day because their blades stay sharper for longer.

Now, if I had a Tormek (or similar) I would use the Japanese #4000 waterstone wheel on that to sharpen my VG10 knife.....:U

Sorry about the long answers to the short questions.

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[rsser]

Thanks for the pot back story Neil. A wealth of meaning there.

And ditto for the sharpening info.

I did get a lansky 2 stage crock sharpener having only one usable hand but will put it aside.

How wld the Tormek go at 1000g followed by the small nat stone that came with the Nakiri?

[NeilS]

I did get a lansky 2 stage crock sharpener having only one usable hand but will put it aside.

How wld the Tormek go at 1000g followed by the small nat stone that came with the Nakiri?

Ern, can see where you are coming at with the Lansky, but reckon the 1000g wheel on the Tormek would be even easier one handed, and the fine Lansky rod is unlikely to be much finer than 1000g. The Tormek will also be faster.

You will only need the lightest of pressure against the wheel. As you will have noticed, Japanese knives don't have secondary bevels. The bevel is also flat, not concave. Try to avoid concave as that will make an already thin blade even thinner. The black felt pen line trick along the current bevel will help keep the geometry. I wouldn't use the strop as it tends to quickly dub a thin edge.

Don't bother with the natural stone until your hand has recovered a bit. See how you like the knife edge straight off the1000g wheel. It won't be all shiny like it was when it first arrived, but it may cut OK. As the Japanese say, "enjoy mist and haze" on your blade. They are more into sharp than shiny.

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[rsser]

Okeydoke, thanks Neil.

[rsser]

The Shun Classic Santoku continues to impress with its edge and handling. Left handed steak trimming was a breeze.

I notice it has a double 2ndary bevel bevel like a Western knife; the Nakiri OTOH has no 2ndary bevel.

PS I'm now spoiled by the edge quality of these knives and have taken a critical look at all the western knives. And read Lee and Hock on knife sharpening. So, there's 3 knives that need jointing :oo: Will have to get my nerve up for that.

Yes Neil, a black wheel on the Tormek would be nice, but the price!!

How about a Shapton glass stone at around 4000 grit?

Have dabbled with a King 6000 in the past but found it high maintenance.

[NeilS]

Ern, unlike your nakiri which is a fully handmade knife for the Japanese user, your Shun sentoku has been designed specifically for western users. As westerners tend to use secondary bevels, Shun have added one. It's easier and cheaper for them to do so. On the other hand, all the handmade knives I have bought directly from Japan have the traditional flat bevel. It's an east-west thing

I have been gradually working back the secondary bevel on our Shuns, but that's a personal preference. Please yourself, there is no right or wrong way. If you work the secondary bevel back you are going to end up with a more acute and fragile edge... more like your nakiri, but it will cut beautifully. Maintaining the secondary bevel will give you a more robust edge, which will require more effort to use unless you keep the secondary bevel size down to a minimum by also constantly reworking the primary bevel. Being a woodworker, you will understand all that of course!

Haven't used the Shapton Glass stones myself, but understand that they require less maintenance. So Yamashita thinks they are good for Japanese steels.

I have been going down to 4000 grit on the kids' knives and they say that gives them a good working edge. Your Tormek 1000 wheel is about the equivalent of 1500 on the Japanese waterstone scale, and 4000 is a manageable step down from that.

Happy to have a separate discussion on your natural stone when you finally get around to giving that a spin.

.....

[rsser]

Thanks for the continuing education Neil; appreciate it.

[rsser]

Hmm, well the Shun is now feeling dulled so I tried to give it a few strokes with the small natural stone.

Pretty ineffective, prob due to my lack of fine hand control ATM.

I'm happy to maintain the two bevel angles as they are and try again with the Shaptons, 1000 and 4000. Holding the blade at a constant angle is going to take some practice. Wondering about cutting wedge from card to get the right tilt to begin with and take it from there.

Does this sound like a sensible/feasible approach?

[NeilS]

Ern, if the Shun has got to the stage of feeling dull, then it's prob too blunt to sharpen on just the natural stone, which is likely to be a final polish stone. You could keep the blade sharp with this stone but would have to use it regularly well before it feels it needs it.

So its back to at least the #4000, if not the #1000.

Not sure that card would last long on a wet abrasive stone. Jigs are a challenge with knives. Something like the Side Sharpening Skate Honing Guide (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f127/sidesharpening-sharp-skate-honing-guide-59403/) that Derek Cohen reviewed or Brent Beach's plane blade jig (http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/stonevise.html) might be adapted for straight edged knives like the Nakiri, but I can't immediately think of a jig that would work effective on the continuous curve of the Sentoku. Just remembered this (http://users.ameritech.net/knives/knives1a.htm) rod-guided jig for knives (near bottom of page) that might work on a curved edge.

However, if you have at least one and a half good hands you should be able to sharpen freehand OK, when you get the hang of it. I use three fingers on my left hand to apply firm downward, pressure directly above and along the bevel (as close to the edge as comforts allows) and the right hand just holds the weight of the knife up under the handle to prevent the weight of the knife rocking the bevel away from the edge. The handle is swung out beyond the stone allowing the fingers of the second hand to cradle under the handle. Sharpen the right bevel along the right of the stone and the left bevel along the left side of the stone. Here is a photo of Shinichi Wantabe (using just two fingers) using the correct grip (http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/sharpen/sharpen.htm). Well, correct according to a sixth generation knife maker from Sanjyo-city, Niigata-prefecture, Japan...:U

Have a play and see how you go, Ern

....

[rsser]

Will do.

Thanks for all that v. helpful info and links.

If I fixed the knife and brought the stone to it, it'd be easier to see if it was going right, but rocking of the stone would be harder to control than rocking of the blade.

Anyway, I'll use the felt-tip pen mark trick.

Incidentally, Carbatec now sell a simple kind of guide: plastic channel section with a ceramic insert to slip onto the top of the blade. You'd be stuck with one bevel angle of course.

[rsser]

Last week among a group of friends over for lunch there was a Japanese guy so I showed him the two knives. Turned out that his grandfather had been a knife maker so I dragged him to the shed and the waterstones to see what he could remember of sharpening a Nakiri.

He thought that I needed to be using lighter quicker strokes somewhat diagonally across the stone, and said his Pop liked a slightly dished stone.

[NeilS]

Last week among a group of friends over for lunch there was a Japanese guy so I showed him the two knives. Turned out that his grandfather had been a knife maker so I dragged him to the shed and the waterstones to see what he could remember of sharpening a Nakiri.

He thought that I needed to be using lighter quicker strokes somewhat diagonally across the stone, and said his Pop liked a slightly dished stone.

Interesting, Ern.

I've seen that short stroke method used by the Japanese, about 1.5" forward and 1" back progressing down the stone. It reduces the tendency to rock the bevel, but must admit I don't use it myself except on small chisels and knives.

Happy going diagonal to the stone with knives, but I'm not convinced about the dished stone. Might get away with it on curved edged knives like sentoku, but I would have thought it definitely a no no for straight edged knives like the nakiri and all straight edge chisels and plane blades. I think it would also be problematic for the flat back of blades, which includes most traditional single bevel Japanese knives.

Some very old used Japanese chisels that I bought had slightly convex bevels when they arrived. I just put this down to laziness on the part of the daiku in not keeping their waterstones flat. But I could be wrong about this?

.....

[rsser]

Well, my nakiri does have a slight curve ... ?

Dunno.

Got a good edge anyway at 8000 but the polish along it wasn't terribly even. It'll take a few more working ups from 1000.

[Pops]

Hi Ern,

Funny your friend mentioned his father liked a dished stone.

Coincidently I needed to touch up an old 230mm Japanese Sashimi knife I bought, (secondhand) on a waterstone. The knife needed work on both the flat back and the bevel. It just happened that the stone I grabbed had a bit of a hollow in it.

I used the diagonal, push 1/2 forward, 1/4 back, 1/2 forward sort of action and found it easy to keep the blade flat on the stone as it registered on two places, on either side of the stone. Anyway I liked the way it felt, quite stable and so did not bother trying to flatten the stone further to take the slight hollow out. I did keep it flat overall the edges though, if that makes sense.

I was happy enough with the results.

Cheers
Pops

[NeilS]

Well, my nakiri does have a slight curve ... ?

Got a good edge anyway at 8000 but the polish along it wasn't terribly even. It'll take a few more working ups from 1000.

Righto, the slight curve would seem to indicate that the blacksmith wasn't trained in the Tokyo style which is more typically straight. Perhaps Osaka tradition.

Should be cutting quite nicely at #8000, Ern...:)

On the unevenness, a couple of our knives are still slightly uneven in a few areas due to some areas of the bevel being very slightly concave when we first got them. I put the slight unevenness down to the way that they are initially ground on the large grinding wheel (makes the Tormek look a bit puny, eh!) which the subsequent sharpening and polishing on the flat waterstone by the knife makers hasn't fully removed.


140578

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[rsser]

Wow, that's a Tormek on steroids.

Yes, re unevenness along the length, there are still some grind marks at the heel.

And yes Pops, with a light quick touch the blade won't be pushed into the dish in the stone though why you would choose to go this way .... :?

[NeilS]

Yes, re unevenness along the length, there are still some grind marks at the heel.



My approach to these residual areas has been to just leave them and let them be gradually worked out over time as the edge needs resharpening. As always, the primary requirement is to get the cutting edge in contact with the stones along the full length of the knife. Any other areas of unevenness in the bevel are just aesthetic imperfections. Why waist any of that lovely cutting steel for a bit of visual appearance!

That 230mm Japanese Sashimi knife sounds like a good buy, Pops. Do you know the maker?

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[rsser]

Yes, I figure that in time it'll be ground away. Doesn't interfere with the use of the knife.

I must say it was a confidence booster for the first attempt just having someone alongside me who knew a bit about the business.

And his testing approach was to bring the edge 90* to his thumbnail lightly and see how it caught being pushed sideways.

[NeilS]

And his testing approach was to bring the edge 90* to his thumbnail lightly and see how it caught being pushed sideways.



Sounds familiar..... pretty well much the method explained (http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/sharpen/sharpen1.htm) by favourite Japanese knife maker. The western method of popping a crop of hairs off the arm isn't an option....:U

Your Japanese friend is quite obviously knowledgeable in such matters.

.....

[Pops]

Hi Ern,

Yes, I have some stone marks on the lamination steel that I will also leave to progressively get ground out. Wish I could duplicate the Japanese professionals with their finish, it looks so good.

Neil, Oops, I got the dimension wrong, my small sashimi knife is only 200mm (8") and I can't remember the make but think it is a cheaper produdtion type. It is still beautiful to use.

Full blade view:
140612

Kanji view:
140613

My other sashimi is by Fuji Jiro I think, (maker or trade mark?) not sure. At 260mm it is quite a weapon, dangerous one in my hands. :oo:

Both catch a thumbnail at 90 degrees. Nice. The fish should be very afraid, I am. :D

I have a Matsumoto Usuba that needs some work, (also secondhand) but am not confident enough to give that one a go on the stones just yet, don't want to stuff up quite an expensive knife. It practically cuts through a tomato by just resting it on the thing, it has some real heft to it.

I did go a bit berzerk when I first got it, and like Ern cut lots of stuff up for the fun of it. :D

Cheers
Pops

[NeilS]

Sorry, Pops, I also don't recognise the maker's mark on that sashimi knife. I think you are right that it looks more like a production knife, but if it works well... so what!

Reckon the Fuji Jiro would be a nice knife. The Niigata area knife makers have a well deserved reputation.

Can understand your cautiousness about sharpening the Matsumoto. The Usuba is such a delicate edge. If you get to it before it becomes too blunt you can touch it up with a fine stone (8000 or finer) otherwise you have to go back to the lower grits where the grinding is more prone to shift the geometry of the blade around before you become familiar with it.

I'm envious of your Matsumoto... :)

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[Pops]

Hi Neil,

Yes the 200mm sashimi is a great knife, for me anyway, not being a master chef or the like.

The Usuba is having a lazy life at the moment, so not wearing that fine edge. I use a very cheap Santoku (as well as the Sashimi knives) and desipte being cheap as chips it has a very sharp edge and is super light.

This cheapy has a sandwhich of hard steel between two outer layers of softer steel, quite unusual I thought, but I like it a lot too.

I will keep practicing with the water stones on the cheaper knives for a while yet Master Neil, until this Grasshopper can boast some modicum of skill. :) And then the Matsumotos will come out of hiding.

Thanks for the info here in this thread Ern and Neil, appreciate it. I do love Japanese knives.

Cheers
Pops

[rsser]

Yes, the laminations are beautiful, and starting with a well-sharpened knife provided me a lesson in how ignorant I was about edge quality.

Just as an aside I will say that it's very easy to ruin the gentle curve on say a French cook's knife on the Tormek. It needs just a very light touch, at least for someone who is used to pressing hard to get a hollow grind on a skew chisel for example.

[damian]

I hope I'm not dragging this thread off topic. I re-read it last week and subsequently bidded on:

Japanese Damascus VG10 gyutoh chef knife Western HDL - eBay Cutlery, Kitchen, Dining Bar, Inside the Home, Home Garden. (end time 27-Jun-10 15:07:19 AEST) (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200487245459&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT)

and won it. I've messaged the seller to ask about some of the options on the auction and recieved no answer. In fact I messaged them prior to bidding about the blade length and got no answer.

Two things then:

Has anyone here experience with the seller ? It's only been a few days but most serious ebay sellers are pretty quick getting onto stuff.

Is that knife a good choice for general kitchen duty ? I realise I need to be careful of bones etc but it seemed to fit the bill with what had been recommended earlier in the thread.

[rsser]

I got my Nakiri from him Damian; his replies to emails were a bit slow but reliable.

I got the waterstone option too which IIRC Neil advised was a very fine natural polishing stone.

[damian]

Thank you for your reply.

I read the section on your whetstone. I was thinking it would be handy to give the knife a lick before putting it away. I believe you two concluded it wasn't coarse enough to actually sharpen a dull knife, but I probably have other things to do that. I've got some of that fancy fine sandpaper, the psa 3m stuff up to some 1000's grit.

I am in no hurry, but I don't like oweing people money, bit paranoid about that. Be happier when the bill is settled.

[rsser]

Sure.

FWIW with my Nakiri I went #1000, 4000 and 8000 on ceramic stones. I still don't trust myself not to dub over the edge with the small natural waterstone.

[NeilS]

Two things then:

Has anyone here experience with the seller ? It's only been a few days but most serious ebay sellers are pretty quick getting onto stuff.

Is that knife a good choice for general kitchen duty ? I realise I need to be careful of bones etc but it seemed to fit the bill with what had been recommended earlier in the thread.

Hi Damian

Lots of us on this forum have purchased blades and stones from Nakaoko-san (330mate_com). Sometimes he is away on temple building work and may not get back to you immediately, otherwise he is reliable. Only challenge for me has been communicating with him in English, but then his English is exceptionally good compared to my non-Japanese.

On the knife, yes, good choice for a Westerner buying their first Japanese knife.

Enjoy!

.....

[NeilS]

IIRC Neil advised was a very fine natural polishing stone.

See earlier Post 16 in this thread.

Nakaoko's Iyoto stones vary between rough (#600) and medium fine (#5000) . Iyoto are more of an Aota stone that is used before the final fine polishing stone. A #8000 man-made stone would definitely be finer but would give a different finish. Many Japanese will use the lower grit man-made stones but move over to the natural stones for the last two stones to avoid the deeper persistent scratches that the man-made stones create.

Ern, assuming your Iyoto is #6000 I would try it out after your #4000 man-made. Your knife may look duller (misty) after using it but if close to #5000 it will give you a longer lasting edge than the #8000. If the Iyoto is only #4000 or lower I wouldn't finish with it, your #8000 will give you a better edge.

I'd be happy to assess your Iyoto for you should you want me to do that before you try it out.

.....

[NeilS]

I read the section on your whetstone. I was thinking it would be handy to give the knife a lick before putting it away

Damian, noticed that the Iyoto stone offered with your knife is only 40mm x 40mm.... reckon that would be a bit too small to accurately touch up the edge. Don't think I could manage on anything smaller than about 125mm x 50mm, but you may.

Noticed that Stu at Tools from Japan has a King S-3 #6000 going for AU$26.83, here (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_405_408&products_id=841&zenid=69c399c03ec100a39524b9effa5dcb58). Those Kings are quite soft, but if you keep it flat the #6000 should keep a good working edge on your knife. You also have to dunk the stone for a while before you use it, but if you do that as you start to use the knife that does not become an issue.

The ceramic stones are better but there is quite a jump in price as you can see from Stu's site. If you thought you could go with a ceramic, perhaps the Sigma Kitayama #8000 (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_468&products_id=1337&zenid=69c399c03ec100a39524b9effa5dcb58) polishing stone for AU$72 would be a good stone for keeping a very keen edge on your blade.

And, the natural stones that I like are a quantum leap in price and complexity from there again....:rolleyes:

.....

[damian]

I don't suppose there is a sharpening service in brisbane that would be able to do it justice ?

I'm getting paranoid about maintaining this knife now :)

Thank you for the replies.

[rsser]

I wouldn't trust sharpening services to give you a polished edge. And the only time I sent a knife out to have a chip ground out the guy made a hash of the curve.

Really, it's not that hard learning to do it yourself. Just google 'sharpen knife' and you'll find plenty of info. It helps if you can find someone to show you the moves too.

Yours is a double bevel; just two fingers on the bevel to push it flat on the stone, hand on handle and do the strokes.

[Rum Pig]

I'm glad i stumbled across this because I'm after some good Japanese knives myself.
I have not looked at all the links but what I have read has already enlightened me.
I used to be a meat worker so i have a appreciation for a good knife and cannot stand anything but razor sharp knives.
I will let you know if or should i say when I buy some.

[NeilS]

I don't suppose there is a sharpening service in brisbane that would be able to do it justice ?

I'm getting paranoid about maintaining this knife now :)



Sorry if I have contributed to your anxiety, Damian. Can't be that difficult... little old ladies all over Japan sharpen their kitchen knives nightly between their last cup of green tea and putting the cat out for the night.

If you saw me yesterday rehabbing an old nakiri knife on a belt sander you would relax about anything else you could do to it. The worst you can do with waterstones is to end up with an edge that is less than optimal.

Won't take you long to be more expert in sharpening Japanese knives than any sharpening service you will find in Brisbane.

If you are looking for someone to get you going perhaps contact Des.K. (http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/3251-des-k-/) who is a member of this forum. He lives on the Gold Coast and did woodworker training in Japan, which would have included the traditional sharpening techniques that are also used on kitchen knives.

.....

[rsser]

While I think any woodworker should or would have some sharpening stones, there are alternatives about.

My partner needs a simpler solution for her garden variety knives and my son wants to look at options so I got in one of these (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Lansky-Deluxe-Knife-Sharpening-System-/200488950716?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_KnivesSwords&hash=item2eae129bbc)to evaluate. A diamond version is also available. Will let you know how it goes.

[Rum Pig]

I think it worth the time and effort to learn how to sharpen a knife or any other fine cutting implement on a stone by hand. You just cannot get the same level of sharpness (for lack of a better word) on a machine. I think you need to be able to feel the knife and know exactly what is going on. If you just use a machine and know that 30 sec on this side and 30 sec on that side will give me a good edge then you will never understand exactly what you are doing and you will never achieve that fine edge.
When I was working in the meat industry I sharpened my knives by hand every night and I always had a sharp knife at work. I could and still can feel a knife and know how sharp it is and how much abuse it has had.

Sorry but this is the way I was taught and believe but I guess what ever works for you.

[rsser]

I agree, but you need to get a start.

I wasn't advocating a machine and as posted, found the Tormek treacherous but that was just my ham-fistedness I reckon.

For years I used a dual grit oilstone and that worked for me. Till I got the Nakiri and Shun Santoku and discovered what a sharp knife could be :-

My oilstone technique wasn't going to work with the Nakiri and it was and is such a beautiful knife I didn't want to muck it up with further ham-fistedness. But as Neil says, it pays just to have a go; it can always be fixed up. Pays to have someone beside you when you have that go.

[damian]

Thank you very much for the replies and encouragment. I am not rpelying to everything as I haven't anything to add just yet, but I am reading and appreciate the help.

[rsser]

These knives have been growing on me and I just scored a 160mm 'petty' knife on ebay from 330_mate again. Same maker as my Nakiri it looks like. Tanaka Miki Japan. VG10 steel, horn collar, wood handle.

Last night I had a go with the Lansky sharpening system on a 6" French cooks knife. Irritating and fiddly so I dropped the guide system and just used the stones freehand. OK, I was impatient and will find more time to approach it as a novice might. Whatever the case, the coarsest stone did a good job of removing steel.

[Pops]

Hi Ern,

Well done. You're starting to get a collection. I am still happy with freehand sharpening for my knives also.

Cheers
Pops

[rsser]

Yeah, as earlier posts showed, I didn't have much confidence in freehanding but have been learning.

Using the Japanese knives alongside the Western set really shows the difference. OK, the included bevel angles are rather different so perhaps it's not a fair test.

But I'm learning to appreciate what Neil has said in this thread.

Maybe a Sushi knife in due course.

[NeilS]

.... just scored a 160mm 'petty' knife on ebay from 330_mate again.


Those Kuro-uchi petite knives are a handy size. My wife prefers that size for most tasks and I use ours for some tasks like trimming fat from meat.




Maybe a Sushi knife in due course.



Perhaps blue steel for your next knife, Ern. Requires just a bit more care and time to sharpen but once sharp it will stay that way for many times more than VG10. White steel is a fraction cheaper and will sharpen more readily to an even sharper edge, but not hold the edge as long. And the other thing with white steel is that it has to be made by a top blacksmith, the tempering process requiring far more precision.

I can recommend blacksmith Wantanabe (http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/pro/pro.htm). His knives are expensive, but cheaper than comparable quality Japanese knives.

A series of YouTube video on sharpening a Japanese knife starts here here. I had to strain to pick up his English but his technique is clear from just watching.

.....

[rsser]

Thanks Neil. That's very helpful.

So is it right to say he's shaping a rounded 'bevel' there?

(PS by Sushi I meant Shashimi. Really only out of interest. I have a flexible Western filleting knife that I use to bone a roast leg of lamb before carving and it does well at that. A bit tricky to sharpen though with its S shaped edge.)

[Manuka Jock]

Guys ,
Robin Wood has just returned from a two week work trip in Japan , and had posted some good info on tools on his Blog site (http://www.blogger.com/home?pli=1).

His wife Nicola has the background to the event on her site (http://nicolawood.typepad.co.uk/kesurokai/)

[NeilS]

Robin Wood .... on his Blog site (http://www.blogger.com/home?pli=1).

[/URL]

Found it:

[URL]http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/ (http://nicolawood.typepad.co.uk/kesurokai/)

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[NeilS]

Found it:

Robin Wood (http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/)

.

Very interesting read, thanks Jock

Seeing all those chouna, mibiki and axes together makes my tool envy quite elevated.

.....

[Manuka Jock]

Ain't that the truth :C


:U

[damian]

The gentleman from ebay never replied to any of my emails so I never got my knife.

I continue to read this thread with interest. :)

[rsser]

Pity. As posted above, 330_mate can be slow to repsond and his English is not the best. But I received the first knife I won on ebay from him without any drama.

[NeilS]

So is it right to say he's shaping a rounded 'bevel' there?



Perhaps more like blended flats. Dave Martell, who is a western expert on sharpening Japanese blades, explains it quite well in this video:

YouTube - Knife Sharpening 1

The knife makers vary a bit on how they like to profile their bevels. Some of my knives have arrived with very slight 'curves' while others have had quite flat bevels, which I prefer and try to preserve. I try to do the same on my nomi and kana blades.

If you always sharpen with the edge away from you the amount of lift on the back edge of the knife can be monitored to keep the bevel constant.

.....

[rsser]

Thanks again Neil.

A flat bevel would certainly be a bit easier to maintain.

I can see why with cutting vegies you might want all or most of the beveling on one side too.

(Can't watch the vid as I'm on mobile dial-up ATM.)

[rsser]

Re purchases from 330mate: can say that the ebay buy a week ago has now been shipped.

[damian]

Maybe he just missed my messages, but I did email him directly as well as through ebay asking about the whetstone and such.

Anyway it's no problem to me, no money changed hands, but he'll have to pay for the auction fees and get no return which is a pity.

[rsser]

Well I had a go at the technique in the vid: press down on the bevel and stroke.

This was on the Nakiri which actually has little in the way of a distinct bevel.

The forefinger slipped off and on the return stroke paid the price.

Blood all over the shop. Difficult to staunch. Clearly a good edge had been achieved already :rolleyes:

Think I was pressing down too hard perhaps.

[Pops]

Hi Ern,

Oh no! Hope it is not too deep a cut. I did the same thing with the sashimi and was very careful after that. I only lost a few layers of skin, just enough to bleed, but it hurt for a week.

And yes I think I was using too much pressure resulting in less control and feel.

Cheers
Pops

[rsser]

Hi Pops,

yep, it's a good cut and screams 'respect this tool'! :D

Not surprising that it happened in a way. Low angle sharpening on a #1000 stone so plenty of resistance.

I continued through finer stones with my thumb firmly planted behind the knife top; not that there was much clearance for it.

With the Nakiri back in the kitchen I was able to cut wonderfully fine onion rings so it's well worth the hassle.

[rsser]

Just to add for others getting fumbly like me ...

Once the finger is bandaged, get a pseudo-leather finger sleeve from the chemist. It ties onto the wrist with a bootlace and provides some protection from unwanted pressure.

Mine should have been stitched but for this kind of minor thing we get bounced between the GP clinic and the local hospital casualty.

Elastoplast fabric band-aids do a great job anyway; the fabric is stretchy, the glue very sticky.

But if the finger starts to turn black you've made the wrong choices :(

[NeilS]

Geez, Ern, this ain't your year!

The main injury I get when sharpening on waterstones is allowing my fingers to extend onto the stone and finding that I've ground right through the skin and drawn blood. Hardly notice it's happening until the first sting and by that time the damage is done. I find that type of injury takes much longer to heal than a neat cut. I get through a few Elastoplasts.

Other than the final strokes on the natural stone, I tend to use a firm pressure and my stroke rate is slower than most of the pros I've observed, but I'm not sure if that makes it more or less likely that the fingers will slip off the blade.

I do often stop and wipe the blade to inspect it and that may help to eliminate some of the slurry on the top of the blade that may cause the fingers to slip... not sure.

At one stage I did try wearing disposal gloves (more to do with reducing the staining on my fingers from the iron in the slurry) but found that they fed under the edge and got shredded, so abandoned them.

Not sure if I've been any help here Ern. Might just be a bit of bad luck in your annus horribilis.

.....