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derekcohen
24th Aug 2004, 12:32 AM
This shooting board was inspired by the one sold by HNT Gordon, with which I (and others) were so impressed at the recent Perth Woodworking Show.

I made this one with a couple of additions. Firstly, it has an add-on mitre fence, and this has a built-in bolt that allows it to clamp securely onto the straight fence. Secondly, I found there was a tendency for slippage on the fences of my other (non-ramped) shooting boards. Consequently I have glued 220 grit dry wall mesh onto the fronts of the fences.

Construction is jarrah and pine, all off-cuts. The finish is shellac, with only the plane slide waxed. With the exception of a power drill, no electrons were burned here, with all work done with hand planes, hand saws, and squared on existing shooting boards.

A note for those with newly-built shooting boards: these need to be "run in" before attaching the fence. Run your plane along the board until you have planed away the area where the blade touches the side of the ramp. You will be left with a ledge that supports the plane body. Only then is the shooting board set up.

Regards from Perth

Derek

DarrylF
25th Aug 2004, 11:49 PM
Shouldn't a ramped shooting board slope down towards the back? Either I've got all the dynamics wrong or sloping down would reduce tearout? I guess it would also reduce the capacity a fair bit. Any thoughts?

vsquizz
26th Aug 2004, 12:06 AM
Dazza, it is sloping to the rear. The fence is at the back.

Derek, what angle do you reckon it is? and how much of the blade do you think you will use on say a piece 3/4" thick.

BTW very nice work. I was so close to buying one but managed to convince myself that it was not about saving money but the plain simple fact that I should build one myself, just as you have done.

Thanks for further inspiration. Now its back to shed building :(

Cheers

Driver
26th Aug 2004, 12:19 AM
Good work, LeCohen! You 'ave done eet again!

(I like the way you leave that magnificent Stanley #62 casually in the background, unmentioned and unremarked).

In all seriousness, that is an excellent piece of design, well executed. The combination of straight fence and mitred fence is inspired. Well done! Now I've got something to shoot for this weekend ("shoot for" - geddit? :rolleyes: )

Col

GCP310
26th Aug 2004, 12:59 AM
i can see a slight flaw in your design. if you use the 45 angle on the slope,will it not produce a face that is out of square to the edges?

LineLefty
26th Aug 2004, 01:25 AM
Looks good derek, as usual.

I made one too, as my previous post shows but it's jsut two pieces of MDF slapped together with a jarrah fence. It's giving me problems too. Maybe I'll have another go and ramp it this time.

Question:

On this shootign board, when do you use the Try Plane as opposed to the #62?

derekcohen
26th Aug 2004, 01:42 AM
if you use the 45 angle on the slope,will it not produce a face that is out of square to the edges?

Glenn

No. Actually I'm not sure what you mean. The fence is square to the table. The plane cuts downward but is still square to the fence. The result is perfectly square cuts, either end- or long grain.


when do you use the Try Plane as opposed to the #62?

Adam

My preference for end grain cuts is the #62. The low angle blade is really the plane of choice for end grain. But when I am squaring short lengths (such as tops and bottoms of drawer sides = long grain) I prefer the Try Plane.

One of the reasons I decided to build this ramped shooting board was that I was told (on another forum) that it made it easier to enter cuts than on a non-ramped board. From my use so far I think he was right.

Regards from Perth

Derek

derekcohen
26th Aug 2004, 01:54 AM
what angle do you reckon it is? and how much of the blade do you think you will use on say a piece 3/4" thick.

Squizzy

The angle is 5 degrees.

I get a full 2" cut at the fence (on either the Try Plane or the #62). Of course, this would be for a piece of timber .0001mm long!

A 3/4" thick piece of timber would be managed for a length of about 200mm.

Regards

Derek

GCP310
26th Aug 2004, 08:19 AM
Sorry, what i mean is if the ramp is set at 5 degrees and you have a piece of stock in the 45 degree jig,would the finished result after shooting not be a compound angle?

Im not having a go at you, it was just a thought thats all.

Kindest Regards

BigPop
26th Aug 2004, 09:28 AM
Glenn,
I think you have missed the point - the ramp is angled at 5 degrees but the plane you use still runs at 90 degrees to the workpiece - hence you are planing a straight cut but the blade is angled to the workpiece (or vice versa).
Hope this may clear it for you.

LineLefty
26th Aug 2004, 10:59 AM
imagine you're slicing bread on a benchtop. Rather than having the knife parallel to the benchtop it's just angle up slightly, but you'll still get a straight piece of bread.

!

GCP310
26th Aug 2004, 12:42 PM
Supprisingly enough, you guys are correct. i did a little 3d simulation
in autocad and i was proven wrong.

heres my results. Sorry to question your knowledge ,Derek. I shall check in future before inserting foot into large orifice. :D

derekcohen
26th Aug 2004, 01:38 PM
Glenn

No offence was taken at any time. We only learn by questioning and testing ideas. I took your questions in the spirit of this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

derekcohen
8th Jun 2005, 12:50 AM
An addition to the design:

While it is possible to be accurate in ones measurements, I do believe that a better design builds into it a degree of adjustability. See below for my solution for an accurate fence. Make the "bolt side" a tight fit, while the "butterfly side" bolt hole in the fence is made a couple of mm larger than the bolt. This gives you a few mm adjustment each way.

Regards from Perth

Derek

TassieKiwi
8th Jun 2005, 09:42 AM
Hey Derek


How would a second fence and a hole for the LHS bolt in the appropriate position for a 45 deg mitre fence work - ie use the same hole for the RHS bolt and rotate the fence?

LineLefty
8th Jun 2005, 11:56 AM
I dont think it would because the top corner of the fence would stick out of the edge.

THats not a very good explanation but if you think about it where the top RH corner of the fence would end up..........

derekcohen
8th Jun 2005, 05:04 PM
How would a second fence and a hole for the LHS bolt in the appropriate position for a 45 deg mitre fence work - ie use the same hole for the RHS bolt and rotate the fence?

Adam is correct. You do want the right side end of the fence to line up with the edge of the runway. Rotating a straight fence would cause it to move away from the edge. I prefer to clamp a mitre fence to the straight fence (which is adjustable).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Slavo
8th Jun 2005, 05:23 PM
not wanting to detract from your ingenuity derek, but couldn't you just use paper or other thin stuff to shim the stock if the shooting board is out of square? (vis-a-vis David Charlesworth). I just see the more moving parts the more room for error. Happy to be corrected if wrong though.

zenwood
8th Jun 2005, 05:38 PM
I think GCP310's concern would have been valid for anything other than the 90 degree case: compound angles then become an issue. Luckily shooting boards have the plane at 90 degrees to the slope. Or am I wrong...

The bread slicing analogy was way cool BTW.


Supprisingly enough, you guys are correct. i did a little 3d simulation
in autocad and i was proven wrong.

zenwood
8th Jun 2005, 05:48 PM
Derek,

Could you please elaborate on the need to run in a shooting board. I didn't get why you had to do some planing of the side before attaching the fence.

When I made mine (un-sloped I admit), I glued everything together all at once, and the end of the fence got trimmed along with everything else during the first few strokes. (The back of the fence was chamfered at the end to avoid tearout at this point.)

Also: what about the issue of the slope going upwards towards the back: doesn't this tend to lift the workpiece off the board, and tend to tearout the grain on the upper surface?


A note for those with newly-built shooting boards: these need to be "run in" before attaching the fence.

TassieKiwi
8th Jun 2005, 07:00 PM
[QUOTE=LineLefty]I dont think it would because the top corner of the fence would stick out of the edge.

QUOTE]

...that's why I said a second fence; change the fence, use RH hole, use new hole at 45 deg position. Second fence would have the mitre at the RH end. DK's 'triangle' does the same thing, however. :D

Woodlice
8th Jun 2005, 10:22 PM
Heh, got it sussed.

derekcohen
8th Jun 2005, 11:47 PM
shooting boards have the plane at 90 degrees to the slope. Or am I wrong...

Correct



Could you please elaborate on the need to run in a shooting board.

Consider:
1) the plane blade projects from the mouth of the plane.

(2) the mouth of the plane does not extend across the entire sole of the plane.

(3) when you rest the plane on its side on the runway, the blade only extends as far as this little sole filet.

(4) if you plane the side of the shooting board bed, you can only go as deep as the blade projects, since you will then be halted by the sole filet, which as a depth stop.

(5) this process will enable the blade to run up against the bed, while the filet runs up against a narrow (filet-wide) strip of timber, timber that was left unplaned (as the blade does not extend across the plane).

(6) If the fence is attached before planing ("running in") the side of the bed, it will be planed together with part of the bed. Therefore it makes better sense to attach it later, once the running in process is complete.


what about the issue of the slope going upwards towards the back: doesn't this tend to lift the workpiece off the board, and tend to tearout the grain on the upper surface?

No and no. Remember, the blade only "planes" the shooting board when it is running in. After this it makes no contact with the shooting board.


Any chance of some photos of the board in use

The pics below are from my files. The first is the squaring up of a drawer side. The second is a demonstration using the HNT Gordon Try Plane - my ramped shooting board was modelled after the HNT Gordon version, having used it with Terry Gordon at a Perth Wood Show. The third is the HNT Gordon original.

Regards from Perth

Derek

derekcohen
9th Jun 2005, 12:26 AM
couldn't you just use paper or other thin stuff to shim the stock if the shooting board is out of square? (vis-a-vis David Charlesworth).

Note: this is in reference to the new adjustable fence I have on the shooting board (see earlier picture).

Slavo

The advantage (as I see it) of an adjustable fence over a shimmed fence is that I can (wait for it ...) adjust the fence! Wow - profound!

Seriously, all you need to do with an adjustable fence is use a hammer to tap it into position. There are no shims to keep squared against the fence (what a pain - I tried this once).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Schtoo
9th Jun 2005, 01:55 AM
Just wondering, why is it ramped? To help hold the piece down to the table I suspect, but I could be wrong.

Would a skew blade shooting plane without a ramped board work as well/better/worse? Skew biased to push the workpiece down into the table of course.

I know that if I decide I really need a shooting board, I'll prolly have to make a plane to suit it. Just because. ;)

derekcohen
9th Jun 2005, 02:10 AM
why is it ramped?

Schtoo

There are a couple of theories.

Firstly, a ramp enables more of the blade to be used, so it wears less than if it were only used at one point.

Secondly, a skewed blade is meant to lower the angle of attack, which is better on end grain. This theory has largely been discounted - there is a lowering of the angle of attack, but it is not by much.

Thirdly, a skewed blade enters the timber at an angle and cuts with a shearing action, which makes for a cleaner and easier cut. I think that there is something in this argument.

I made this shooting board after having made a few non-ramped versions earlier on. I can tell there is a difference, and the ramped version is nicer to use, but probably is not worth the effort if time is precious to you.

A few pics of non-ramped shooting boards below.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Schtoo
9th Jun 2005, 02:26 AM
Ah, the first point explains it thoroughly. The second one, not enough skew so I aint buying it. The third, I don't think there is enough skew to make a big difference, but in use I think it would make a sizeable difference as it's not only shearing, but doing it over a goodly amount of the blade, keeping it sharper for a little bit longer.

I don't think I need one right now, but that could change someday.

I could always wuss out and just get a 10" sliding compound mitre saw and a tailed jointer too. I wouldn't be beyond doing that. :D

LineLefty
9th Jun 2005, 11:47 AM
No matter how good a SCMS is and how finely tuned, it's never going to remove a whisper thin shaving and leave a finished surface.

IT might produce a square edge but if you wanted to just adjusted the length of a board by less than a mm to fit a joint, then a shooting board is a joy.

I have a non-ramped version and I can tell you that it does wear out the blade pretty quick. Secondly, with regards to 'running in' a board, it helps to note that he shooting board WILL be planed every time you increase the maximum depth of cut ever taken on the board. So it helps to take a few good, deep cuts when running it in so that you fined cuts will keep the blade and board out of harms way.

Finally! I find that the biggest problem is keeping the plaen square on the board and not tilting it. That, i suspect is where terry gordons adjustable handles come into their own.

goodwoody
9th Jun 2005, 02:30 PM
Cant we just buy a stanley #51 and #52 shooting board? It is easy just sell a bloodwood table for 500, 000 AUD! Simple.

zenwood
9th Jun 2005, 02:59 PM
(6) If the fence is attached before planing ("running in") the side of the bed, it will be planed together with part of the bed. Therefore it makes better sense to attach it later, once the running in process is complete.

No and no. Remember, the blade only "planes" the shooting board when it is running in. After this it makes no contact with the shooting board.

On (6): Thanks for that and understood.

About the ramp going up: I understand that the plane doesn't contact the shooting board, but I was referring to the workpiece when in actual use: doesn't the upward slope mean that the plane is tending to lift the workpiece upwards and off the shooting board. (The slope may be so shallow that this is not a problem. I guess if you've not noticed it, then it's not a problem:).)

derekcohen
9th Jun 2005, 05:09 PM
Cant we just buy a stanley #51 and #52 shooting board? It is easy just sell a bloodwood table for 500, 000 AUD! Simple

Yeah!

They sell for about $2000 on eBay.

Perhaps Peter Byrne might tell us about his. It's a beaut.

Regards from Perth

Derek

goodwoody
10th Jun 2005, 01:43 AM
I picked mine up in the states last time I visited. Nice to have but not essential.

vsquizz
10th Jun 2005, 02:19 AM
Those wanting to read some more on shooting board general discussions taking place when this thread started can read here:

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=10855&page=4&pp=15

Oh, the link takes you to the end:o of the thread, good if your chinese?:confused:

Cheers

JDarvall
11th Jun 2005, 08:47 AM
I think thats a lovely looking shooting board....and probably works well.....

But we all have our own ways......I do mine a little differently.
- I use a laminated chipwood......I'd worry about my timber warping and affecting the shoot ...but maybe yours hasn't moved...I don't know....I use thick offcuts of kitchen tops.....the laminates are very hard wearing.....
- I wouldn't use sandpaper on the fence.....I think that would slow down the process considerably......I mean if your certain your planes butted nicely against its fence and your stock then is slid up against the nose of your plane then it shouldn't go anywhere as long as your blades sharp....and you wouldn't wont to even try unless it is anyway...
- I have 4 shooting boards setup.....2 left handed and 2 right handed....each side with one plane....each side for both mitre and square end shooting.....The reason for 2 sides is that I often just work with timber that has only 2 reference sides square to each other....the other two sides still all over the place.......ie straight from the jointer......I don't have a thicknesser and my tablesaws not the most reliable.....and I must have trued sides on the shooting boards fence......which means if I only had say a right handed sided plane then I'd have to flip and balance the stock awkwardedly and thus inaccurately on the untrued side to mitre or square the other end of the stock........This is especially noticable when making picture frames from pre-molded stock....they won't balance well on the curve side..
- the 2 shooting planes I've made myself from poor old 4and 1/2 stanleys...I modified them to hold old thick Matherson blades that once sat in wooden planes......the reason is I figured because end grains so tough it would be best to have a thicker blade that is less likely to flex.....and I have noticed they do work far better than some regular thin 2mm blade which tend to chatter more. ....and the matherson blades have proven themselves well time and time again........the adjustment levers I modified to all work on matherson blades so you can still get that subtle control over the blades alignment......and I've ground the frogs thinner so they can be skewed about 15 degrees so the blade slices more ...which means the mouths in the planes had to be filed skewed as well....a close tidy mouth not important since its end grain we're working.......and to the side of each plane I've welded a thick steel plate........gives it excellent stablility and adds to there weight......this weight with plates flatterned polished , plenty of wax and sharp thick blades gives them plenty of heft.....very solid cutting action.....the only down side is the frog can dig uncomforatbly into my hand...gets a bit painful after shooting all morning....but thats beens solved with a little rag sitting on top at that point...
- the whole setup is permanently fixed,,,,quite unattractive I must admit,,,but very effective because I can mitre and square very quickly....approach a perfect joint with confidence....without having to adjust all the time......they have one purpose and thats it.
- tips that I found help me when constructing the shooting board......make the fence removable.....plenty of screws so it doesn't move but don't glue....so you can re-true it latter or re-align......and chamfer it a little or a little dado right at the bottom where the reference edge butts so any chips or whatever get forced into there out of way instead of forcing your stock out from fence.....as you know this can affect your accuracy.....and if your jointing and your fit for one reason or another requires something not exactly square or at 45 degrees use playing cards to shim the angle you want.....

- And I think ramping the shooting board is unnessary.......I understand the concept....to distribute wear to the blade.......but that is easily done with a regular shooting board by shimming the hieght with ply or chipwood....whatever your shore to be flat....just have countersunk skrews in and screw it fixed when its time to raise hieght because its worn too much....then remove again when its time to drop again.....with a portable drill its very quick.....

and the cost of my setup...next to nothing
$5 for all the laminated chipwood at local tender centre
$12 for both planes......they were in a very bad way when bought at markets
3 hours of work one morning.....about it

here's some pictures

LineLefty
13th Jun 2005, 12:26 PM
I realyl want to read that............... can you separate it into paragraphs!?

Rocker
13th Jun 2005, 04:08 PM
Derek,

May I repeat DarrylF's question, which I don't think you replied to? Why does the ramp slope upwards towards the fence? Surely this would tend to lift the workpiece up, as well as making it harder to push the plane. I am afraid my interest is purely academic :)

Rocker

derekcohen
13th Jun 2005, 04:45 PM
Rocker asked

Why does the ramp slope upwards towards the fence?

The Neanderthal answer: Because I copied the HNT Gordon design.

The Neurotic answer: Because I did not want to disappoint Terry (Gordon).

The Paranoid answer: What are you getting at!!!!!

The Technical answer: the degree of skew is insufficient to make a different to the forces impacting on the timber.

The Derek Answer: Because I copied the HNT Gordon design.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Rocker
13th Jun 2005, 05:03 PM
Thanks, Derek; You are probably right in saying that it doesn't make much difference. But, nevertheless, I think there would be a marginal advantage in having the ramp slope downwards towards the fence, since the plane's action would tend to push the workpiece down rather than up, and the plane would be marginally easier to push, since you would be pushing it downhill rather than up. I just wondered if there was some compelling reason for doing it the Gordon/Cohen way.

Rocker

Groggy
13th Jun 2005, 06:30 PM
The Technical answer: the degree of skew is insufficient to make a different to the forces impacting on the timber.
Derek, I believe there are three technical reasons for angling the ramp:

1. It reduces the effective pitch slightly. I am sure a mathematically inclined person could say how much a 5 degree ramp would change the angle (similar to why we angle a plane freehand).

2. It helps to evenly spread the wear on the plane blade, thus keeping the blade sharper longer.

3. The forces of planing are vectored downwards, making for easier technique. Instead of pushing forward, inward and downward, the technique is more forward and inward - the ramp induces the downward for you.

OtakiriLad
13th Jun 2005, 06:36 PM
All this reminds me that when I approached the timber merchant for some hardwood to make a shooting board he asked me what sor of guns I had:eek:

I also made mine based on the HNT website pictures but mine ramps down to the stop and I feel it holds the workpiece better.

outback
13th Jun 2005, 06:46 PM
I'm feeling a little confoosed. this is not a new feeling, and one with which I am quite at home, leading to less confoosion meaning I don't know when I'm confoosed about something, confoosed about nothing or confoosed about not being confoosed when I'm confoosed.

BUT........

The high part of the ramp faces the user, the low part, with fence attached is at the back, the plane whooshes (techo term) back and forth parrallel to theworkbench. It is your workpiece being planed what is at an angle. This thus means your workpiece is being held down, and not being ridden up.

derekcohen
13th Jun 2005, 07:00 PM
Derek, I believe there are three technical reasons for angling the ramp:

Hi Groggy

This is like deje vu :eek: Look back at response #26:

Schtoo

There are a couple of theories.

Firstly, a ramp enables more of the blade to be used, so it wears less than if it were only used at one point.

Secondly, a skewed blade is meant to lower the angle of attack, which is better on end grain. This theory has largely been discounted - there is a lowering of the angle of attack, but it is not by much.

Thirdly, a skewed blade enters the timber at an angle and cuts with a shearing action, which makes for a cleaner and easier cut. I think that there is something in this argument.

I made this shooting board after having made a few non-ramped versions earlier on. I can tell there is a difference, and the ramped version is nicer to use, but probably is not worth the effort if time is precious to you.

A few pics of non-ramped shooting boards below.

Regards from Perth

Derek

You are probably right. :D

Regards from Perth

Derek

derekcohen
13th Jun 2005, 07:03 PM
Outback wrote

I'm feeling a little confoosed.
Yeah, who isn't!



It is your workpiece being planed what is at an angle. This thus means your workpiece is being held down, and not being ridden up.
Wot he sed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Groggy
13th Jun 2005, 07:21 PM
Hi Groggy

This is like deje vu :eek: Look back at response #26:
Oops, didn't see that, I'll butt out.

cheers.

derekcohen
13th Jun 2005, 07:53 PM
Hey Groggy

Please stay - I was just teasing you. I promise to play nice :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Groggy
13th Jun 2005, 07:57 PM
Hey Groggy

Please stay - I was just teasing you. I promise to play nice :)

Regards from Perth

DerekNah, too late - I already deleted my other two responses. I should've known better and read all the other 42 replies.

I'm just glad it didn't happen in the Bessey thread :eek:

bsrlee
13th Jun 2005, 08:40 PM
One picture may be worth a thousand words, but sometimes a few words can be worth a thousand pictures.

I think I am with a fair number of others with this one - the original pictures certainly convey the impression to me that the main platform is level & the track for the plane slopes UP towards the back!

or

NOW I get it! :D

outback
13th Jun 2005, 10:03 PM
AHA, now I too get it. :cool: I couldn't work out why everyone was saying upwards sloping ramp.

The workpiece being shooted is on the down/away sloping ramp. The plane stays level. I guess there is some tendancy for an upward type of torsion as the plane races past, but cos' you hold your shooting piece of timber with downward/forward pressure against the fence, you'll never move it.

I think the crossways slicing action (more techo stuff) introduced with the ramp makes for easier shooting, but that's me.

vsquizz
13th Jun 2005, 10:12 PM
Outback, I got home and read the "sloping up to the fence" bit and thought what the hell pills have these guys forgotten to take today, and as Derek said about the angle thing..we have been around this pie cart before..which if it still causes confusion...we should go around again a few more times:rolleyes:


Cheers

Rocker
13th Jun 2005, 10:35 PM
At last, the penny has dropped with me also. I, and presumably DarrylF too, thought that the ramp was the part on which the plane rides, and that the platform on which the workpiece lies was horizontal. It was just that Derek's photo was taken at an angle that did not make it clear which part was sloping.

Rocker

vsquizz
13th Jun 2005, 10:42 PM
Rocker, on post 33 I put in a link which goes back to the last time we tried to confuse ourselves with this subject:o


Cheers

Dan
14th Jun 2005, 10:12 AM
It reduces the effective pitch slightly. I am sure a mathematically inclined person could say how much a 5 degree ramp would change the angle (similar to why we angle a plane freehand).

Don't know about mathematically inclined but I was curious.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=10883

But the skew cut action won't happen on a ramped shooting board.

outback
14th Jun 2005, 10:34 AM
Exactly DAn.


Now for our next trick lets find and resurrect and old thread on say.......sharpening, and give it another lap of the kitchen, or shed, whichever takes yer fancy Nancy.

mat
29th Jun 2005, 09:51 AM
Derek

Have you considered attaching a top rail as per Robert Wearing's design to stop all possibility of inward tilting the plane?

One problem with this design is that it is a tailor fit for one plane!

derekcohen
29th Jun 2005, 01:28 PM
Hi Mat

I am unfamiliar with Robert Wearing's design. Do you have a reference or link?

Regards from Perth

Derek

LineLefty
29th Jun 2005, 01:45 PM
Mat,

That my friend, is a bloody brilliant idea! That is my biggest problem with shooting. It is another source for error though but shouldnt be too difficult.

Now I'm glad I havent got around to building a new SB yet....................

mat
29th Jun 2005, 02:03 PM
Derek

The design is in his book
"The Resourceful Woodworker: tools, techniques and tricks of the trade"
Robert Wearing ISBN 0713464852 published in 1991

maybe out of print - I found it in the local library.