Rust removal with molassess

[Lyle]

Have just tried the rust removal with molassess. Works a treat.
Used it on an old Silex No 245 drill. Have to be careful on the aluminiom bits but otherwise works very well.
The drill looks to be a 'breast drill', but I can't find any other info. I think I am missing a handle that fits near the front.
Can anyone help me with info either on this drill or the tool company?

[trainingwheels]

Hi Lyle,
Sounds interesting.How about leading us through your process (Not at least your mind set on trying molasses:)) and some photos of the result and a photo too of your unidentified drill.
Regard
TW

[Lyle]

Will do. Have a few photos of the small woodworking vice, before and after.
Will post them up soon.

[orca]

hi guys,i also have used the molasses method with good results.I have just completed de-rusting an old durden saw bench using the electrolyis method which i find is a lot faster (to fast on aluminium though). just love restoring.keep up the good work.

[burraboy]

I spent a lot of time in skin sheds at abattoirs over the years and the salt they use causes a lot of problems with machinery, forklifts etc. One solution was to spray everything with molassess on a regular basis as a preventative.
I'd like to hear how you use molassess for rust removal, do you use it neat or watered down?

[Lyle]

I found a 'recipe' a while back on this forum and also a gun forum.
I used 1 part molasses to 9 parts water. The recipe I found said "Backstrap molasses", but I don't know what that is nor did the stock agent salesman, so I used normal molasses that they supplement feed to horses and cattle, it seemed to work OK.
I have a 20 litre plastic paint drum so it was easy, just 2 litres of molasses (about $2 from your horse/stock feed distributor) and filled the drum up with warm water, gave it a good stir.
Suspend you iron parts in it. Remove as much rust as you can mechanically and ensure all the parts are clean of grease and oil as the molasses will not penetrate that gunk.
It is a time thing with molasses and it depends on how bad the rust is and how clean you want it to be. I check daily by lifting the part rinsing it of in clean water and giving it a gentle scrub with a wire brush, if it is not rust free enough, back in it goes.
When you are happy with the result clean the part thououghly, fresh water, then I use hoy soapy water and a final rinse in fresh water then a hot air gun to dry it very well.
How you finish your part depends on what it is.
My pieces were an old Silex breast drill and an old woodworking vice that I salvaged from my late Father-in-laws machinery shed. They'd been in there for at least 30 years mouldering away neglected. They came out of the dip back to bright metal!
My pieces were old tools probably not going to be used again, so the finish was for a cosmetic appearence. But a tool to be used might benefit from some other form of treatment, like oil etc.
As with any 'recovered' part I would be suspect of the strength and integrity of the piece. The process may set up areas of pitting for stress cracks, but maybe there are some metalurgists here that may comment on that aspect.

I have photos and will post them later, before and after.

[Dengue]

I have a lot of little items that need rust cleaning eg nuts and bolts, drill bits etc.

If I put them in a small plastic tray and suspend it in the molasses, will this work OK? what sort of time does it take for small litems like this - mostly surface rust

[Lyle]

Hard to say how long an item will take to remove the rust. Variables like temp, molasses mixture, how bad the rust is etc.
Suspending them in a tray will be ok. Easy to retrieve too and have a look at occassionally.
You will see a scum (a froth - it is a Chelate of iron oxide I think - a chemist migh know the term), this indicates the mix is doing its job. I skim it off every day to keep the place tidy.
I check my stuff every day to see how it is going. Badly rusted and deep pitting might take a week or more, lightly rusted stuff might just take a day.
I keep a bucket of clean water beside the brew and as I check the pieces I give them a rinse and light scrub with a wire brush. If the piece looks OK a wash with hot soapy water and a rinse with clean water then I heat them dry to get every skerick of moisture out.
Post treatment is your choice as to what you use and ultimately what the piece will be used for.
When the mix is finished with, just dilute it again by about 10-1 water and water into the garden beds - the nemotodes hate it and it is good for the plants too.
Still trying to get time to do the photos.

[Lyle]

Be careful with non iron items, I'm not too sure how long they'd last in the brew. Try it by all means as I have done it successfully but I was extra cautious and checked frequently to see how it was going.

[Lyle]

Photos.

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/shydog_raceview/DSC06377.jpg


http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/shydog_raceview/DSC06379.jpg

As they came out of the brew and a rinse.

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/shydog_raceview/DSC06385.jpg

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/shydog_raceview/DSC06386.jpg

The setup for the brew. You can see the frothy scum on top.

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/shydog_raceview/DSC06387.jpg


The final result.

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/shydog_raceview/DSC06389.jpg

[Dengue]

Excellent results! Thanks for sharing this Lyle, it has been a really good learning experience

[burraboy]

Yeah! :2tsup: Good one!

[orca]

great results.the molasses works well and its cheap.anything is better than wire brushing etc.:2tsup:

[Plumbkelly1946]

Hello, your wasting your time with molasses, try the electrolosis method, will clean an axe head or similar in a coule of hours, Molasses takes days and it stinks

[Lyle]

Plumbkelly 1946
Electrolisis is another way to remove rust. No doubt it works well too.
However the molasses method does work too and that was my reason for posting here.
The molasses method is cheap, effective and doesn't involve chemicals, and is fairly gentle. But does, as you say, take more time. I didn't find the smell offensive at all, but being an ex far North QLD'r who has been through the sugar refineries, I was probably gently reminded of my youth :rolleyes:

Electrolisis requires some form of electrical power, chemicals and a basic understanding of how to apply them.

There are for and against for each method. I have heard of people who 'forgot' they had the item in the electrolisis bath and came back to a badly damaged item!

So take my posts and info as just that - info. What works for some may not work for another. But at least knowing there are more than one way to skin a cat is always useful.
Lyle.

[Plumbkelly1946]

Hello, Ge wiz you just cant help some people, using molasses to remove rust went out with the ark, elestrolosis is the new way, it doesnt hurt any metal that rusts, how hard is it to hook up a 12 volt battery to a tub of nice clean soapy water, non toxic, no smell, get with the times

[rotten_66]

PK,


Electrolysis can damage things and go bang if you do it wrong.
With the molasses, OK stuff gets sticky and may smell, in your opinion, but at least you can do it in small steps and be careful.

This was a suggestion from someone as a mild alternative, not everyone wants to go at things like a bull at a gate, so perhaps you may wish to tone it down somewhat, after all it was your first post.


Ron

[trainingwheels]

Thanks Lyle for the post.I have got a few things needing cleaning and your method is worth trying.Nothing ventured nothing gained.If I am careful then I can't hurt them any more that the rust already has.So thanks for the step by step.Appreciate it.

PlumbKelly1946. How about you post your method for electrolysis? I am a newbie and have no idea on the method so put your fingers where your mouth is and spread the good word on this new stuff if it is so whizzbang? A 12V battery and water makes me shudder so some safety tips would be good. But then maybe, the new way isn't all it is cracked up to be because you have joined the forum for some reason and maybe need some help and guidance from the older wiser guys and gals?. But each to their own and I am thankful for the sharing and advice that is so willingly spread on this forum.

JillB.I assume the tray method would work so long as you turn the items regular like so that all the surfaces get a reaction going together?. Be safe to assume that the surface in contact with the tray would not initially get an as good coating? is that what you found?

Thanks
Rob

[Plumbkelly1946]

Hello, ge wiz Ron your a might thin skinned, first of all you should get your facts right, i2 volt electrolosis will not hurt any metal that rusts, best you should stick to 6 volt, it's childproof i think even you could do it, second it cannot explode if you use just normal soapy water, i think i'm wasting my time on you, stick to expensive, smelly, dirty molasses or you might blow yourself up

[watson]

Settle Please.
Opinions may differ...lets keep it that way

[rotten_66]

Settle Please.
Opinions may differ...lets keep it that way

Exactly my point Watson, exactly...

[pjr]

hi Lyle, thanks for your post,

I've used Citric Acid and not been happy with the results. I didn't like the pitting and everything ended up an ugly dull grey (even with careful watching I couldn't get the rust removed without getting a lot of pitting in the metal).

I tried Electrolysis and had similar dull grey results that I didn't like (but maybe I could improve something to get better results)

My current favourite is Evaporust, a nice non-toxic chemical rust remover that won't touch the metal at all. So I use either that or a light oil (or wd40) and scrubbing/scraping, depending on what the target object is.

I have heard of using Molasses but not tried it so perhaps it's time to give it a go. There's always good new (or old) things to learn, thanks.

[Plumbkelly1946]

Thanks Lyle for the post.I have got a few things needing cleaning and your method is worth trying.Nothing ventured nothing gained.If I am careful then I can't hurt them any more that the rust already has.So thanks for the step by step.Appreciate it.

PlumbKelly1946. How about you post your method for electrolysis? I am a newbie and have no idea on the method so put your fingers where your mouth is and spread the good word on this new stuff if it is so whizzbang? A 12V battery and water makes me shudder so some safety tips would be good. But then maybe, the new way isn't all it is cracked up to be because you have joined the forum for some reason and maybe need some help and guidance from the older wiser guys and gals?. But each to their own and I am thankful for the sharing and advice that is so willingly spread on this forum.

JillB.I assume the tray method would work so long as you turn the items regular like so that all the surfaces get a reaction going together?. Be safe to assume that the surface in contact with the tray would not initially get an as good coating? is that what you found?

Thanks
Rob
Hello Rob, thank goodnes there's someone on here with a bit of nouse, just google , ( rust removal eletrolosis ) and it will explain everything, i use a 12 volt battery and just normal washing powder, molasses is what the cave men used on there spears, its time to move on, try it and i prommise you will never look back, ive been using it for years mainly on traps and axe heads, with perfect results, i just run the jumper leads of my car and away we go

[Lyle]

Can you explain your process. You use washing powder, is that the stuff for the laundry washing machine? What sort of concentration do you use?
I have heard of a car battery charger being used for the power, is that what you have used or just a 12V battery hooked up?
What do you use as the anode/cathode, just another lump of steel?
Do you use it on just steel/iron or other metals too and if so what precautions do you take.
How do you treat the metal when it comes out of the bath, anything special?
Do you need to clean the grung off before you start?
Just a few questions on your process.
I have heard and read about the electrolitic process but haven't tried it yet. Your experience would be appreciated, with some photos too if possible.
There are other processes for rust removal too. Phosphoric acid too will do a good job but there are pro's/cons for each method.

I am ultimately looking to clean up a couple of those old crosscut saws and am considering the different methods to get the rust off. Whether I'll get these saws back to working condition will depend on the rust removal success and subsequent damage. ie if the rust is so damaging to the saws to make them display only.

Your input will be appreciated by me and others reading this.
Lyle.

[orca]

lyle,regarding your cross cut saws,i saw an article on removing rust off long metal objects.its a piece of cake.just grab a length of conduit of required diameter and length,put a cap on one end and use whatever method you like.(for electrolis sheild both anode and cathode from contact with some plastic mesh, like gutterguard plastis mesh strip)

[pjr]

You use washing powder, is that the stuff for the laundry washing machine?
hi Lyle, you want Washing Soda which is used as a water softener and available in the Laundry section of the supermarket. It's normally just Sodium Carbonate crystals with nothing else added. Maybe others might use something else but this stuff is pure and cheap.

[witch1]

"I did it my way"
having read the foregoing methods of cleaning rust from ferrous metal tools I am concerned that the fumes from all the preceding methods are having a deleterious effect on the customary good humour of the forum members involved.
Early in my membership on this forum I found a cost effective and reliable method of removing rust which I have used ever since, I hope all of you will try it and having found how well it works will continue to use it in the future.

Take a plastic bucket and place a cup of carb soda in the bottom (of the bucket)add about a litre of white vinegar (the cheap as chips black and gold brand is my choice) now add the rusty tools and a couple of litres of water leave it for a couple of hours, or days depending on the rust thickness remove from bucket hose off and leave in the sun to dry.

hope this leaves all members in a good humour.
regards
witch1

[Sparhawk]

Have a look at the Hand Tools Presevation Association website (http://www.htpaa.org.au/article-electro.php) for detailed instruations (this is what I use). I went to SuperCheap Auto and bought a $20 car battery charger (it doesn't need high capacity etc), and followed their instructions. You can see the results here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/new-saw-110952/).

[Lyle]

Sparhawk - thats for that excellent link. :2tsup:
I'm looking to restore two old crosscut saws that have been abused for years, covered in rust. I haven't been able to discern whether the rust has made them unuseable yet. So I need to thoroughly de-rust them to decide if they are users or display only.

Orca - way ahead on your idea of the plastic conduit. I use PVC pipe to construct footings. Get the large diameter cut to length of footing and leave a bit out the top of the hole and fill with concrete, either with the upright embedded in or a bracket embedded. I'll just get the right diameter pipe with end caps, cut a bit out of the pipe fill it electrolyte and go from there.
Anyway I'll give it a go with the electrolisis process after reading more about it. I was concerned about the embrittlement of the steel via the electrolitic process but the link from Sparhawk has reassured me on that.

Witch1 - how does your method go for non iron metals? Does it affect aluminium greatly?

From the replies there seems to be a lot more ways to skin the proverbial rusty cat :D

[Plumbkelly1946]

Sparhawk - thats for that excellent link. :2tsup:
I'm looking to restore two old crosscut saws that have been abused for years, covered in rust. I haven't been able to discern whether the rust has made them unuseable yet. So I need to thoroughly de-rust them to decide if they are users or display only.

Orca - way ahead on your idea of the plastic conduit. I use PVC pipe to construct footings. Get the large diameter cut to length of footing and leave a bit out the top of the hole and fill with concrete, either with the upright embedded in or a bracket embedded. I'll just get the right diameter pipe with end caps, cut a bit out of the pipe fill it electrolyte and go from there.
Anyway I'll give it a go with the electrolisis process after reading more about it. I was concerned about the embrittlement of the steel via the electrolitic process but the link from Sparhawk has reassured me on that.

Witch1 - how does your method go for non iron metals? Does it affect aluminium greatly?

From the replies there seems to be a lot more ways to skin the proverbial rusty cat :D
Well there you go Lyle, i did all the work and you got all the glory

[Lyle]

Thanks mate :wink: I'll take all or any I can.
Us old dogs with a bit of age and cunning will always win over youth and dexterity..... :D

I was concerned re the electrolitic process from my aviation experiences. Cleaning some metals and treating them ie chroming, plating and de-oxidizing can result in stress risers from the hydrogen embrittlement factor. Not that any of my tools fly too far, I think I can't chuck them as far as I used to be able.
The link from Sparhawk was some info I was looking for.

The saws I am looking to restore to users are not in a good looking state. But as it appears to be surface rust they may be recoverable.
I'm going looking for a cheap car battery charger as a power supply.
You use your car battery, does it hold enough power to complete your jobs. What typically do you do, small tools? Have you done any larger tools like a crosscut? Would a car battery be enough for bigger jobs that take more current and time?
Lyle.

[witch1]

lyle
I have never tried it on other than non-ferrous metals but I will be putting a batch through in the next couple of days and will throw in some aluminium and whatever else I can find in the sacrificial experimental metal department and let you know:roll:
witch1:q

[Sparhawk]

I did a good job on the brass in the saw I restored, it would be good to see some results for other metals.

[Dengue]

Having an electrical background, I have always favoured electrolysis, but am going to give the molasses a go for all the fiddly bits that I have that are a real PIA to do by electrolysis.

[Plumbkelly1946]

Having an electrical background, I have always favoured electrolysis, but am going to give the molasses a go for all the fiddly bits that I have that are a real PIA to do by electrolysis.
Well Jill al i can say is that if you have to resort to molasses then your not doing the electrolosis properly, i use it for everything, small and large, molasses doesnt do the job any where near as good as electrolisis, one day when ive got more time i will explain the method in detail, i used to be an electroplater so i have a fair knowledge of the process, i wouldn't touch Molasses with a 50 ft pole, it stinks, it takes days and just doesnt do a good job
Barry not Lyle

[Plumbkelly1946]

Thanks mate :wink: I'll take all or any I can.
Us old dogs with a bit of age and cunning will always win over youth and dexterity..... :D

I was concerned re the electrolitic process from my aviation experiences. Cleaning some metals and treating them ie chroming, plating and de-oxidizing can result in stress risers from the hydrogen embrittlement factor. Not that any of my tools fly too far, I think I can't chuck them as far as I used to be able.
The link from Sparhawk was some info I was looking for.

The saws I am looking to restore to users are not in a good looking state. But as it appears to be surface rust they may be recoverable.
I'm going looking for a cheap car battery charger as a power supply.
You use your car battery, does it hold enough power to complete your jobs. What typically do you do, small tools? Have you done any larger tools like a crosscut? Would a car battery be enough for bigger jobs that take more current and time?
Lyle.
Hello Lyle, just one quick tip, if you use just the straight battery charger for your power supply it will burn out in a couple of weeks, you need a 12 volt battery for your power supply and then keep jur battery charger hooked up to it
Yours Barry, not Lyle

[ozhunter]

I've used Citric Acid and not been happy with the results. I didn't like the pitting and everything ended up an ugly dull grey

pjr

I have used Citric Acid on rabbit traps (for collecting purposes) and a couple of Grandfathers shifters that had seen better days and was very pleased with the results.

No doubt someone will correct me (please do) if I am wrong but hasn't the pitting that you speak of been caused by the rust and you have uncovered it by completely removing the rust and the ugly dull grey is just the colour of the metal.

As for molasses, I have heard of some using it for rabbit traps with good results.

Each to their own I say. If you want to use the "modern" way, go ahead. If you want to use "older" methods, have at it.

My .02

oz

[Tim Self]

Thanks for posting this procedure. Had never heard of it and don't want to try electrolosis. Now to go to the feed store.

[BobL]

Plumbkelly 1946
Electrolisis is another way to remove rust. No doubt it works well too.
However the molasses method does work too and that was my reason for posting here.
The molasses method is cheap, effective and doesn't involve chemicals, and is fairly gentle. But does, as you say, take more time. I didn't find the smell offensive at all, but being an ex far North QLD'r who has been through the sugar refineries, I was probably gently reminded of my youth :rolleyes:

Electrolisis requires some form of electrical power, chemicals and a basic understanding of how to apply them.

There are for and against for each method. I have heard of people who 'forgot' they had the item in the electrolisis bath and came back to a badly damaged item!

I agree, I have used electrolysis and it does come with some risks, including increased chances of stuffing up the pieces you are trying to restore. For someone who just wants to tackle a few items molasses seems perfectly acceptable. I reckon the molasses process could probably be sped up by using some sort of stirring and even some low heat. I might have a go using a magnetic lab stirrer/heater.

Oh Yeah and thanks for posting the pictures.

[pjr]

No doubt someone will correct me (please do) if I am wrong but hasn't the pitting that you speak of been caused by the rust and you have uncovered it by completely removing the rust and the ugly dull grey is just the colour of the metal.


hi Oz. it could be just the rust pits, but I don't think so because of the results on the last plane I did. It had rust on the sole but not on the cheeks. After a citric acid bath, the cheeks were that dull battle-ship grey colour rather than the nice clean condition they had been. My theory is that even though citric acid is not strong, it quickly etches the bare metal surface and the dull grey is caused by dispersion of light from the etching.

The experience led me to try evapo-rust which will not affect the iron at all. The results were more like what I had hoped for, just looking clean and cared for rather than battle-ship grey. Pitted areas will still come out grey but other parts still look as I hope. Citric was fine on the bench vice I did because the visible surface had that rough cast texture (and was then painted anyway).

I do wonder how molasses works and can't wait to read up on it and give it a try.


Each to their own I say. If you want to use the "modern" way, go ahead. If you want to use "older" methods, have at it.

yes I agree completely. horses for courses, and try a few to decide what you prefer.

[Bob38S]

El Cheapo vinegar fro the supermarket works fine for me.

Not tried molasses before but was aware of it.

Have been given a battery charger to try the electrolysis method when the opportunity arises.

Regards,
Bob

[ozhunter]

The experience led me to try evapo-rust which will not affect the iron at all. The results were more like what I had hoped for, just looking clean and cared for rather than battle-ship grey. yes I agree completely. horses for courses, and try a few to decide what you prefer.


I'll have to get some evapo-rust and give it a go on a rabbit trap.

[Stewey]

We used to have an old bathtub, 1/2 full of a mix of about 40% molasses, 60% water.
I'd put springs, and big stuff in it- the main thing is 'don't forget to take them out' !

Yes, it was slow, 3 to 6 days) and you had to hose the sludge off, then wirebrush it quickly & dry it fast, or the humidity in the air would make it quickly turn a rusty brown.
The smell never bothered me, but stuff left in for too long was taken back more than I'd have liked- revealing the crystalline structure of the metal.

We also used a bathtub of caustic soda solution, to strip paint etc off, first..
(Be careful & wear full body coverings etc- that stuff stings)

I eventually just took the stuff to a powder coater fopr sandblasting & priming, finding the molasses bath a bit too tedious for paying jobs.

The electrolysis way intrigues me to want to give it a try sometime soon- bath-sized again!

[Claw Hama]

I have been using molasses for many years, I also use electrolysis sometimes but I also do a bit of metalwork, welding, grinding etc and find it safer to have a bucket of molasses laying around than a car battery. The BHP used to use molasses to clean huge parts from the steel mills, as in truck loads, because it's very safe and efficent. I have a 20lts drum that cost me $10 and has lasted me about 4 years. And I don't mind a spoon full myself now and then. Keeps my coat looking good.:U

[igatenby]

Electrolysis only works line of sight, doesn't it? ie - won't do cooling galleries in an engine block, that sort of thing.

Here's a one ton keel off my Dragon going into some molasses

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/iansecond/Dragon/keelb.jpg

and here she is brewing away... there's a couple of hundred litres of brew in there.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/iansecond/Dragon/keelmuck1.jpg

[Dengue]

Wow!!

How did you make the container for all this?

What is the smell like? And how do you dispose of the few hundred litres once you have finished?

How long will you leave the keel in that mix?

In answer to the query about "line of sight", electrolysis will do inside passages, eg inside RHS and tubes. It converts rust where ever the electrolyte can reach. The problem is to get rid of the black stuff that it converts the rust to. Still, even if you cannot get rid of the black stuff, it is not rust any more, so electroylsis has stopped the cancer.

Molasses has the same problem, I would imagine, having to hose / wire brush the residue away.

[georgeharris854]

Plumbkelly 1946
Electrolisis is another way to remove rust. No doubt it works well too.
However the molasses method does work too and that was my reason for posting here.
The molasses method is cheap, effective and doesn't involve chemicals, and is fairly gentle. But does, as you say, take more time. I didn't find the smell offensive at all, but being an ex far North QLD'r who has been through the sugar refineries, I was probably gently reminded of my youth :rolleyes:

Electrolisis requires some form of electrical power, chemicals and a basic understanding of how to apply them.

There are for and against for each method. I have heard of people who 'forgot' they had the item in the electrolisis bath and came back to a badly damaged item!

So take my posts and info as just that - info. What works for some may not work for another. But at least knowing there are more than one way to skin a cat is always useful.
Lyle.
The electrolisis method is quick and easy, and very effective, and can be done with any six or twelve volt battery charger!
A really helpful article on this is on the Handtool Preservation Association of Australia website, and it is so popular they have a direct link to it... go to: article-electro (http://www.htpaa.org.au/article-electro.php)

I am sure you will find it very helpful