Another plane? [Archive] - Woodwork Forums

IanW

2nd February 2010, 10:13 PM

There have been some pretty impressive planes made & shown here, so this is a bit old-hat, but maybe I can get a few people who are hovering on the verge of trying to give it a go by presenting my efforts. I have been wanting to have another go at a dovetailed body for years. The last one was solid enough, but not a competition winner - it needed a dollop or two of silver solder in a few of the more severe gaps.

My excuse has been that I couldn't get the softer brass suitable for peining. The only plate you can buy readily here in Brisbane is the 380 machinable alloy which gets a bit brittle when you whack it with a hammer a few times. However, I've been doing a bit of mucking about with metal lately, & peining brass & steel rivets, & the mild steel I've used is quite easy to pein. It dawned on me that you really only have to move a lot of metal on one of the parts, because you cut & fit one set of dovetails, just as you would with wood, so if you make these a nice fit, virtually all of the peining is in closing the other piece over it..

So to cut a long story short, I have successfully completed a metal body for a 200mm (roughly) by 55mm (blade) smoother loosely based on a Spiers picture I trawled from somewhere. The tails were cut in the brass sides, and scribed onto the steel sole. After cutting out & careful fitting, I filed a bevel on each tail, then peined the steel over to lock them in. It worked so well, I just have to show it off.

Now the funny part. I started out doing a square body because it seemed a lot simpler & safer. I got to the stage of makingthe mouth & cutting out the tail gaps along most of one side of the sole before I realised I'd cut them upside down. Since I had already cut out most of the mouth, there was no way I could simply flip it over - by the time I refiled the ramp, the mouth would have been at least 2mm oversize! So what's that old hoary one about the tough getting going when the going's tough? After almost giving up in disgust, I decided to give it another go & this time, try a coffin shape as I originally wanted to do before whimping-out. It ws a bit of fun bending & fitting the sides, but in fact, it turned out much easier than I had anticipated. I've started to fit the wood, but the weekend ended at taht point.

Here are a few shots of progress, but it might be a while before I get back & finish it...
(Edit: Little did I know when I wrote this just how long the project was going to languish!)

1. preparing the sides from 3mm brass: 466307

2. the body assembled & peined & starting cleanup: 466305

3. Initial cleanup complete - Just two tiny gaps that I won't bother about as you need to look very closely to find them & I'm confident the rivet shadows on the sole (from the anti-chatter block) will disappear completely when the sole is lapped. A better result so far than I had hoped for! 466306

4. The wood being readied (She-oak) Still to be shaped & cheeks glued on. I don't have a piece big enough to carve the rear stuffing from a solid bit, so am laminating it as many (most?) of the oldies are. The handle is based on my favourite old rosewood tote off a very old Baily #5.: 466304

Will keep this updated as & when I progress.
Cheers,

Pops

2nd February 2010, 10:34 PM

Well done Ian. It is looking fantastic. I would have thought the coffin shape would have been quite difficult too.

Really like the the timber for the handle, looks like it will come up very nicely with that grain. Is it She Oak or something similar?

Do keep us posted. Am always impressed with the tasks you tool maker fellows tackle. I'm still too chicken. :)

Cheers
Pops

derekcohen

2nd February 2010, 10:39 PM

Hi Ian

That is looking good!

What is the bed angle and did you add a mouth block?

I wondered if you might use the Rock Oak .. none left? Not to worry, the She-oak is going to be equally stunning.

With regards the mouth, not to panic - the higher the cutting angle, the less important the size of the mouth. 60 degrees and the mouth sizre is irrelevant. Alternatively, what about silver soldering a shim/steel veneer to the front of the block?

Regards from Perth

Derek

RayG

2nd February 2010, 10:40 PM

Hi Ian,

Let me be the first to offer congratulations on the stunning progress so far.

I would like to see some more detail of the build, anti-chatter block, lever cap fabrication. Is the lever cap drilled yet, or are you going to do the sides and cap together somehow. Details of the mouth...... ahh... so many questions. Is the infill overstuffed?

Double dovetails look nice. Gotta love that steel and brass together..

If you are interested, I have some she-oak that would be big enough for that.

Regards
Ray

Whoops, wasn't quick enough to be first!

Waldo

2nd February 2010, 10:42 PM

Pops wrote a bit of what I was going to write before I scrolled down and read his post, but anyway...

I am always impressed by those who have a go and end up making a beaut plane that makes whisper thin curlies and looks just as good as many other planes. (dunno if that last bit came out they way I intended but I mean it with all sincerity, I'm having a brain phart right now)

I'm keen as to follow your progress IanW, maybe one day I'll tackle something myself. In the meantime I'll continue to follow threads like this with great interest. :brava:

Woodwould

2nd February 2010, 10:43 PM

Brilliant! (As the chap in the Guiness ad used to say.)

lightwood

2nd February 2010, 11:03 PM

Ian,
you certainly have the piening of the dovetails under control!
That is looking fantastic. Looking forward to seeing it finished.

Just had a thought....
I don't think all is lost with the wide mouth smoother.
What about moving the blade position back some more, and opening up the front some more and making a "T" shaped throat closer with and adjustable screw tightener bearing down and fixed through a nut under the the front infill....bit like an old marking gauge

Regards,
Peter

IanW

3rd February 2010, 09:40 AM

First, thanks to all for compliments, comments, & advice.

Pops, the main reason I started the thread was to encourage those who have been thinking about it, but making excuses (like I was doing) to plunge in & have a go - you have nothing to lose apart from a few $$ worth of metal, much of which could be recycled for other uses if things go really pear-shaped. :; I don't think I would recommend tackling a coffin shape on my first go, not because it was all that hard, but it just adds another dimension. I think you would be surprised at how easy it would be to make a small, straight-sided smoother like the one Derek completed from a kit last year.

Peter - I'm really pleased with the peining results myself. Once I realised the trick was to ensure the steel got pushed around more than the brass, it was a comparative doddle. My fears came from that previous attempt where I'd joined brass to brass, & the results were less satisfactory - mostly, I realise now, because I was too timid with the peining. To someone like yourself who has been working metal forever, the way you can make metal move is no surprise, but I would recommend a little practice-run for those who've never tried it before - it will boost your confidence no end when you see how those gaps close up!

And my blurb is a bit misleading - I scrapped the original sole plate & started over. I thought about a few ways of fixing the mouth, along the lines of your various helpful suggestions, but each would have involved compromises I wasn't prepared to make. A half day's work & a few cents worth of steel isn't the end of the earth.

Derek, I take on board what you say about the mouth width being less important as the angle increases - at least I can be more relaxed about the final fit!
The bed angle will end up something less than 55 - that was the angle I started with, but with fitting & filing the chatterblock & the wood, it will sneak back a deg or two, I think. I think anywhere between 50 & 55 will give me what I'm after.
I do have some of that Rock-oak still, possibly enough to stuff the plane, but I really want to use the She-oak, both because of its connections to where I was spawned & because I am more experienced with it & know it to be a reliable & stable material.

Ray - yes I have included an anti-chatter block. I put that in before assembling the sides, because I thought it would be much easier filing it flush with the back of the mouth without the sides getting in the way.
No, the lever cap isn't drilled, yet. That will be done last, when I can clamp it in place & get it spot-on.
Thanks for the offer of some Oak, but in fact I would prefer to laminate the back bits, this time, as it's much easier to get the result I want that way. I have plenty of material big enough for the bun, so that's no problem.

I will have to work on it intermittently for the next little while - the day job & other responsibilities are crowding in, but I would rather take it slowly than have any more stuff-ups (we've had good rain here at last, too, so LOML will have me back on yard-duty this weekend :C). Still deciding whether to over-stuff or keep the wood inside the metal & make a nice chamfer on the brass - each has its appeal. For those who want more build info, I'm keeping notes, so when it's done, I will make a PDF for anyone interested.

A couple more pics to help answer some of the questions raised so far:
1. The scrapped & new soles! 466311

2. The anti-chatter block riveted in place. 466310
3 & 4. My cap-iron bending jig (any resemblance to a drunken mud-dauber wasp's efforts & my welding are entirely co-incidental. :U) It worked beautifully, & I got a perfectly controlled rollover, once I finally got it set up in the vice - having only two hands is a real nuisance, at times! 466308 466309

Cheers,

RayG

3rd February 2010, 10:37 AM

Hi Ian,

When I made mine, I closed up the mouth by going to a thicker blade :)...

The coffin shape, is stiffer IMHO, and while a bit more work, most of the extra work is in the inletting of the overstuffing.

Here is a drive-by gloat, .......... sorry I couldn't resist.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/CoffinSmootherGlamor1.jpg

Apologies Ian, I am not normally one for drive-by gloats... but there is something about making planes...

Regards
Ray

Waldo

3rd February 2010, 10:46 AM

:aro-u: Very nice.

SiJ

3rd February 2010, 11:04 AM

Beaut work Ian, as always :2tsup:, will follow progress with great interest. This has motivated me to have a go myself!
Cheers
Si

IanW

3rd February 2010, 11:06 AM

Hi Ian,

When I made mine, I closed up the mouth by going to a thicker blade :)...

The coffin shape, is stiffer IMHO, and while a bit more work, most of the extra work is in the inletting of the overstuffing.

Ray - the blade I am using is a Paul Williams (long story!) so I am not keen to substitute it. But it WAS one course I considered. :U

Yeah - it was precisely because my side material is a bit thinner than I would have liked that I favoured the bend. I think it adds noticeably to stiffness & very happy the stuff-up occurred, now. Yours has much thicker sides - looks like 3/16" - is that so? Bending that thickness would be a challenge!

Still can't decide whether to overstuff or not - I like both ways. The thing that's leaning me to not overstuff is I have made the sides higher than the equivalent Spiers - again looking to increase stiffness - but it gives me less room to play with the stuffing. I'll keep my options open, for a while.

[I]
Apologies Ian, I am not normally one for drive-by gloats... but there is something about making planes...
Regards
Ray

No need to apologise - it's a beauty, & should be shown off at any opportunity. P'raps we should put together a calender set, one of these days? :U

Avagooday,

IanW

3rd February 2010, 11:08 AM

Beaut work Ian, as always :2tsup:, will follow progress with great interest. This has motivated me to have a go myself!
Cheers
Si

Excellent - that was my main agenda!
:U

RayG

4th February 2010, 09:21 AM

Still can't decide whether to overstuff or not - I like both ways. The thing that's leaning me to not overstuff is I have made the sides higher than the equivalent Spiers - again looking to increase stiffness - but it gives me less room to play with the stuffing. I'll keep my options open, for a while.

Hi Ian,

Not overstuffing gives you the opportunity to do some decorative work on the chamfering.

Looking forward to seeing more progress pictures..

Regards
Ray

wheelinround

4th February 2010, 11:41 AM

Now thats nice work looking forward to seeing the finished plane :2tsup::2tsup:

IanW

8th February 2010, 10:57 AM

I had very little shed time on the weekend, so not much progress to report. Decided to go with an over-stuff, & discovered I had cut the handle cheeks too thin to hang over at the front, so had to make a couple more.

I have roughed-out & partly fitted the front bun. It will need final shaping before I rivet it in place. One thing I noticed is that my bending technique needs improving - the front flares out a bit because I concentrated on just bending the sides into the dovetails, & didn't worry about the upper part. Note to myself: In future make a former, as RayG did, to over-bend the sides enough so that when they spring back they will be close to the right shape - much trial & error called for, I suspect!

Anyway, I tink it will all pull in ok once I set about riveting the bun in place. I was going to try using some 3/16 brass rod for rivets, so that they won't show on the sides, but after some mucking about with a bit of scrap, I'm not sure it will pein well enough, so I might have to use steel rivets after all. Maybe if I keep the countersink shallow, I'll be able to fill it before the brass starts to flake. More experimentation called for before I commit to brass rivets....

The handle/blade support is glued up & ready to shape & fit. I used epoxy & it was a heck of a job keeping the 3 bits from sliding all over the place as the clamps were tightened on. More notes to self - it might have been a good idea to use some small dowells inside to keep things in place. Next time....

This morning I whipped down to the shed to check & took the clamps off. The alignment is not perfect, but there is enough spare material for cleanup & getting it square before I start shaping & fitting. This is going to be fun! I can only mark out from the bottom, using templates for the outside & inside shape (see the collection of templates used so far!). Taking it slowly & sneaking up on a tight fit will be the go, here.

Busy with all sorts of other things this coming weekend, so probably no more significant progress to report for a while, folks...

Cheers

Waldo

8th February 2010, 11:24 AM

The best laid planes of mice and men... you try and get something done and at the end of the day or part thereof you wonder what the heck you actually got done.

:2tsup:

Every 5¢ is that much closer to $1.

IanW

8th February 2010, 11:27 AM

..........
Every 5¢ is that much closer to $1.

Yeah, Waldo, 'cept when the 5c are are going out faster than they're coming in. :C

I'll get there - rather it took longer than I'd like than rush & botch it completely. (There's still a 50/50 bet I'll do that, anyway... :;)

Avagooday,

Waldo

8th February 2010, 11:40 AM

Yeah, Waldo, 'cept when the 5c are are going out faster than they're coming in. :C

I know too well about that. :console:

michaelgarner

10th February 2010, 06:21 AM

IanW

10th February 2010, 10:12 AM

Did you make the cap? If you didnt where did you get it from. I have wanted to make a handplane for the longest time. You have inspired me, what size of brass and steel did you use? Do you have the specs of your hand plane?

Michael - no, I didn't make the cap - I acquired it in a trade a long time ago. I have seen them for sale, somewhere, but can't remember where. However, it's not a particularly difficult part to make. On a slightly smaller plane, for which I did make the cap, I used a 1/4" brass screw with knurled head I got from Lee Valley - see here:
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/another-sort-hybrid-109854/.
It would probably look a bit under-sized on a larger cap (though it would work perfectly well!) so you might want to find or make a larger screw for a cap of this size. Other members of this forum have made screws that looked good, by a couple of ingenious methods.

I've used 1/8th brass for the sides & 3/16" steel for the sole & a bit of 1/2" for the anti-chatter block. The sides could possibly be a bit thicker, but they look proportional to the general size, & they seem to be adequately stiff, which is enhanced by the curve. Going to 3/16" would be overkill, IMO, and 5/32 should be ideal, but I can't get anything like that, here.

I'm afraid I have no drawings other than rough sketches which get scrawled over & modified as I go along. I can do a rough drawing with the major measurements, if you like, but this very much a figure-it-out-as you-go job. As I said, I'm copying the general style from a picture & working to the width of a blade I already had (which is about 2 1/8" wide by a touch less than 5/32" thick). I'm aiming for a high bed angle of 55*. I've made a few planes already & have some idea of what I want to end up with, so it's not a completely haphazard approach!

I'm keeping a running record of construction & noting mistakes & problems & how I did or didn't manage to solve them. I will be brutal in my assessment of how it performs & if it doesn't live up to expectations, you'll all hear about it :~. I've gotten better since since my first effort at planemaking (it was a complete dog!) so I'm hopeful that experience & care will give me a decent user when it's done. :U

Cheers,

Woodlee

17th February 2010, 09:48 PM

IanW

18th February 2010, 08:24 AM

Hi Kev, yes, some work-hardening is inevitable and the machinable grade alloys we can buy aren't any help in that respect. The alloy they use for the brass bolts you buy in the hardware stores is quite easy to pein, but I have trouble with the thread lands coming off & leaving little gaps. I tried some bonze welding rod, which was good, but would like to get something a bit thicker - around 5/32" would be ideal.

Soft wire or nails are much easier to pein, so I may end up using steel after all. I haven't done any work on it for a while & it looks like the next 2 weekends are out, so I have plenty of time to think about it! :U

Cheers,

Ball Peen

18th February 2010, 09:14 AM

Hats off to all you norris style builders ! I once owned a Mathieson coffin sided smooth and Spiers jack .The jack was stamped" L.J.Harvey "of Brisbane. Both planes were sold to a Bris. collector and helped pay for my shed .I sold them 20 yrs. ago and still miss having them.You people have inspired me to build replacements .I'm not starting tomorrow but I never even considered it before ,thanks .

IanW

18th February 2010, 09:24 AM

Hats off to all you norris style builders !
........You people have inspired me to build replacements .I'm not starting tomorrow but I never even considered it before ,thanks .

G'day, Bill.
Well, I've always thought of instrument making as the pinnicale of craftmanship, & after looking at the stuff you make, I reckon you'll have no trouble making anything you set your sights on!

Go at it...
:U

IanW

8th January 2012, 06:02 PM

Isn't it amazing how time can scoot by when you put something aside for "a little while"? I'm almost too embarrassed to bring this thread up again, but wanted to let you know it finally got done. I apologise for no more WIP pics, but I had pretty well covered it all by my last post 2 years ago.

What remained to be done when I had to put the job aside, was to let in the front & back stuffing and fix it in place. In a post above, RayG mentions that it is a bit tricky to do the stuffing for curved sides - he wasn't kidding! I battled with the rear section for a whole day, sneaking up on the fit. Didn't get it perfect, but it's not too bad. The one job I did stuff up a bit was shaping the lever cap. I should have waited & done it last, at which point I would have realised it needs to curve out a bit to fit between the sides neatly, instead of being parallel and the same width as the blade, as I made it. So I have a gap between it & the sides, each side where the screws fit.

I was going to rivet both the front bun & rear pieces in place, but in the end, my courage failed me, because I didn't think I could drill through the curved sides accurately enough, so I used screws on the back piece. I then decided to give riveting a go for the bun, anyway, and it wasn't so bad, except that I made the countersinks bigger than necessary, which meant a lot of peining of the rivets. The machinable brass I used (the only type I can buy) does not like being peined, so I got a few flake-outs trying to fill the deep countersinks. Now it's a bit of a hodge-podge, with rivetted front & screws in the rear, but this is a working tool, not a showpiece. :roll:

So here you go - all done - a pic in the 'raw' before final cleanup and a couple of pics of the finished item, with the obligatory curly in the throat. It works pretty well straight up, but might need a little more work on the blade bed, and the sole needs a touch more work because there is a small dip on one side just in front of the mouth. Interesting how the high blade angle gives a different sound a slightly scratchy 'shhhiick'.....

I learnt much on this job, the main lesson being that I was foolish to sail into a curved sided plane for my first full dovetail job. :doh: But what the heck, it has turned out ok, so all's well....... :U

Cheers,

Edit: I seem to be referring to this first build a lot, lately, so I thought I should replace some of the pics that got lost in the accidental "great purge" a few years back. Here is the plane as I first made it, and the first shavings: 466314 466313

However, I realised that front bun was a monstrous mistake as soon as I'd finished, so I cut it off. But I was never happy with it, and the piece of She-oak I used shrank and made gaps, so in 2018 I replaced it, This time I used screws to match the rear-stuffing. That was the only time I used screws, I have always rivetted the stuffing in on subsequent planes (with more & less success!), but even a not-so-perfect rivetting job looks neater, I think: 466312

It's ten years almost to the day since I first posted on this plane. It's had plenty of use; I've fiddled with it a bit over the years & got it working as well as I can (it's at least as good as a genuine Norris I own). It was a steep learning curve, but I gained much from making it & the second coffin smoother I made went together in a fraction of the time, with a fraction of the effort, and is a nicer user :) : 466315

NCArcher

8th January 2012, 07:30 PM

Beautiful Ian. :2tsup: There's something about a dovetailed infill. Highly desirable. I'm putting it on the list. :U Might try a straight sided though

Gezawa

8th January 2012, 09:40 PM

Thats a great looking plane Ian. You are certainly braver than me making the coffin shape infill plane first. I Like the balance of timber in the infill and the shape of your rear handle. Thanks for sharing.:2tsup:
Cheers Gerry

Pops

9th January 2012, 11:27 AM

Hi Ian,

What they said. Beautiful thing. Love that infill timber, and is not as dark as many. Can I place an order? :) :)

Cheers
Pops

IanW

9th January 2012, 12:53 PM

....... You are certainly braver than me making the coffin shape infill plane first. I Like the balance of timber in the infill and the shape of your rear handle.

Not brave, Gerry - foolish would be more appropriate! Fabricating the metal parts was challenge enough, but went surprisingly well. However, fitting the wood and the lever cap accurately with no parallel or straight reference edges in the critical sections to work from, was a near brain-burster, for me. :C

...... Love that infill timber, and is not as dark as many. Can I place an order? :) :)

Hi Pops - 'tis nice wood, and it comes off the old farm where I grew up, so has a special connection for me. I like using She-oak for tool handles & plane totes because it is very stable and takes a beautiful smooth finish that feels good in the hand. Only down side is that it's very high in tannins, so will corrode metal pretty badly if it isn't properly dry, (or if it ever gets wet, which I hope will never happen! :o). I set both infill pieces in a bed of epoxy, in the hope that it will help them to remain firmly seated, and keep them away as much as possible from the metal.

As to placing orders, well, you can see how long it took to finish this one, a little over 2 years to the day. I doubt either of us has enough mileage left in us to last as long as it would take me to get the 'round tuit' for another one! :U In some ways, I wouldn't mind re-making it, because the lessons I learnt along the way could be put to good use. But this one is working very well, so I think it will have to do. I want to make a shoulder plane, to replace the one I made many years ago, which I "pseudo-dovetailed" - it works ok, but the soldered dovetails at the front annoy me . So I will put what I learnt to good use on that project, if I can still remember by the time I get to it...... :U

Avagooday,

derekcohen

9th January 2012, 01:30 PM

Hi Ian

You have done a wonderouth thing .. built a plane of beauty which, no doubt, will perform just as well as it looks (well, I have a couple of things to say in that department ...).

I do wish I had your fine ability with dovetails in metal .... not to mention that wonderful Rose She-oak, which is nicer than our local stuff.

The handle/tote has a touch of a saw handle in its shaping. I wonder where the influence for that comes from? :)

Now I do have a quibble about the front section ... not sure what to call it. Ordinarily it would be the knob ... front hand hold. There!

It is too square for my liking (not in keeping with the great curves you have at the tote end), and projects a little too far (which makes it look even larger. Does it offer important extra grip?).

For comparison, here is one of Peter's Spiers ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/ec1e99e7.jpg

... and a rounder one I did on my Spier restoration ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/spier4a.jpg

And please ... change the lever cap side screws.

Discussion. We must have discussion.

Best wishes for the New Year.

Regards from Perth

Derek

IanW

9th January 2012, 03:43 PM

Now I do have a quibble about the front section ... not sure what to call it. Ordinarily it would be the knob ... front hand hold. There!

It is too square for my liking (not in keeping with the great curves you have at the tote end), and projects a little too far (which makes it look even larger. Does it offer important extra grip?).

Hi Derek - I think the name most peole are using for the front infill is "bun", which seems as good a name as any.

Hmm, that bun gave me more trouble than you realise! Because I was building this plane out of my head, I had to make a few things up as I went along. The high angle blade meant I had to pitch the slope of the bun forward to maintin a decent escapment angle between it & the lever cap (it's only just adequate as it is). That meant I had little wood on top to get the flat-topped area I like. I prefer something I can place my palm on, flat, & hate the bun on my Norris, which has a sharp rear edge, & is most uncomfortable for the way I like to plane. I can't for the life of me figure out why most manufactured planes have that sharp rear edge to the bun - are they subjugating function to looks?? How are people supposed to hang onto these things?

Anyway, the reason my bun sticks out the front is because I wanted as much wood on top as I could get. I had it sticking out more, but that looked wrong, so cut it back to where it is now. It's only projecting 3 mm, which I suppose adds little to the surface area of the top, so maybe I should bring it back level with the sides. In view of your strong reaction I will take a long hard look at it & decide if I can improve it without sacrificing comfort.

The shape of the rear handle is a bit of an amalgam of the one on my Norris (a late model with cast body), and my favouritest tote of all, which came (broken!:C) on an old 5 1/2. Not entirely successful, because the she-oak board I cut it from was about 2mm thinner than it should be - you wouldn't think 2mm could make much difference to the feel of a handle, but it certainly does.

And please ... change the lever cap side screws.

Discussion. We must have discussion.

The screws are temporary, don't worry. I will replace with counter-sunk screws soon. I want to silver-solder a couple of spacers each side of the lever cap to neaten it up (or maybe even remake it) so I will revisit the screws then.

As I said in my last post, I learnt quite a bit from my mistakes on this one, & reckon I could do it a lot better next time, but I don't think I will ever get around to another one!

Always ready for discussion & debate, 'ol buddy..... :U

Cheers,

Basilg

9th January 2012, 05:03 PM

Ian

I think the Bun protruding out front spoils the look, but I can understand why you have done this. Judging from the photo's the bun looks a bit high & If you sliced the top off the bun this would give you greater surface area on the top & allow you to shave back the front.
I find a good way to judge the effect of a cut is to wrap tape along the line of the cut, covering what would be removed, then you can then clearly see what it will look like before making the irreversible cut.

I agree with removing the phillips head screws, & think the others spoil the look as well, square drive would look much better. Alternatively, perhaps putting in larger gauge screws would allow you to file off the heads flush with the sides.

Regards

IanW

9th January 2012, 09:18 PM

Very well gentlemen, I guess I haven't won anyone over with my hand-friendly bun! Can't say I'm all that fond of the shape of it myself, despite spending too much time already, fiddling with it. There may well be a remake coming up, though I had better finish a couple of 'useful' jobs first, or LOML is likely to put serious restrictions on future shed-hours. :o

Basil - the bun is actually only a smidgin higher than the Norris, after which it is loosely modelled. I think the shape makes it look taller than it really is (see pics 1 & 2). Where I got myself into trouble was not observing the way the Norris bun is fitted. I 'remembered' it as coming up straight from the mouth, as I fitted mine, but if you peer into the escapements (pic 3), you can see that it actually starts a few mm in front of the mouth on the Norris. This caused some conflict with the line between it & the upsweep of the sides, and I had to do some filing & sanding to blend them in. So it's no wonder to me you are all picking up on this part of the job as beeing a bit off the mark. I will definitely have a go at some more shaping - as long as I don't reduce the area of the top by more than 25% or so, it will still suit me, I think, & I can't make the shape any worse.

On a cheerier note, I had time to put it through its paces a bit more tonight. It planed a chunk of Cooktown Ironwood VERY nicely. The surface is shiny-smooth & could be finished as-is (on the left in the pic). I then tried a very curly bit of Camphor (centre). This planed ok, but the surface left on the softer wood is a bit like what you expect off a scraper, slightly dull rather than shiny-smooth. That's ok, as I learnt a long time back that some softer woods respond better to very sharp blades & lower rather than higher cutting angles.

Then for the acid test. I have some bits of Blue Gum that defy any plane I've yet thrown at them. They are rowy & brittle and pick out no matter how sharp the blade or what the cutting angle. Well, the new 55 degree did a fairly good job, but by no means perfect. However, it is probably as good as you can get with a cutting tool, even my Lee Valey scraper plane struggles to get this stuff under control.

All in all, I'm resonably happy that I have a decent user. Have to revisit the blade bed, as I'm having a bit of trouble with setting the blade. It jumps from too fine to a roughly 2 thou shaving no matter how gently I coax it, so there is an irregularity there somewhere that I need to get rid of. But I reckon it will be functioning well enough that I can put the old Norris up for sale, shortly. :;

Cheers,

Basilg

9th January 2012, 09:48 PM

Sell the Norris :oo:

Ian the plane may not win a beauty comp, but it seems like it is a very workable tool, and worthy of a bit of fine tuning. Then move on to Mkll, Mklll, etc :D

Enjoy the journey

IanW

10th January 2012, 12:04 PM

OK, I reshaped the bun, & checked the blade bed with layout dye on the back of the blade & there were a couple of small high spots that needed levelling out. The bun is now close to the shape of the one on the Spiers in Derek's post, but perhaps a little flatter-topped, which I want to preserve. It works well, and will do what I want of it reasonably well, I think, so that's that. I'll replace the lever cap screws when I get the ones I want.

Whether or not it will enhance productivity down in the shed, who knows, but that's what I told LOML to justify my time spent on "non-essential" projects....... :D
Trouble is, they remember these things, so now I will have to deliver. :;

Cheers & thanks for your frank appraisals,

Pops

10th January 2012, 12:33 PM

Hi Ian,

Comparing the before and after shots I have to say it does now look much better. The bun curves compliment the other curves of the plane very well and am sure it will still feel quite comfortable to hold and use. (You can give us some feedback after it has had a real workout on the next project).

Well done Ian. P.S. I was only joking about placing an order for one, but I do covert it. :)

Cheers
Pops

Basilg

10th January 2012, 02:47 PM

Ian

That looks much better. I agree with keeping a flat top, I try to keep flat areas when I make a wooden bodied plane as I find it assists in gauging if the plane is cutting true.

Good luck with maintaining shed access. You could try, the doctor prescribed it as a good form of Physical and Mental activity which helps prolong life & ease stress.

Regards

derekcohen

10th January 2012, 05:32 PM

Hi Ian

Of course it is more important how the plane works - which it seems to do very, very well (no surprises there). One might argue that looks are irrelevant, so why the fuss about how the bun (there, I got it!) is shaped. But when one spends the time to build something that is not only for performance but also for looks, then it is worth the effort to get it right. And I think you have (except for that bloody screw!). The bun now fits in with the rear of the plane, bringing a sense of uniformity to the whole. :2tsup:

Bloody well done, mate!

Regards from Perth

Derek

pmcgee

11th January 2012, 04:05 AM

I have a Speyrs non-adjustable infill that was re-stuffed in Australia.

The front bun is very much like your Norris there. Being quite/very new, the rear sloping edge is not eased at all with use so is quite hard on the meat of the palm quite quickly.

So that is what I like about yours Ian - the rear of the front bun looks very comfortable for using.

Cheers,
Paul McGee

IanW

11th January 2012, 08:56 AM

Thanks folks - it seems we are all happier, now. (I certainly am :U).

I'm glad I didn't persist with my original idea of having the top of the bun sticking out about 12mm and rounded into a sort of 'snout'. Don't know what I was thinking, just wanted my plane to be different from the pack. But by degrees, I've crept back to pretty much a standard bun & ended my flirtation with radicalism.

My only real disappointment in the job is those too-obvious fixings for the stuffing. I wanted to use brass so it would not be as distracting as steel rivets, but what I have ended up with is even more distracting. Mild steel is so much more malleable than the brass, so it's easier to end up with very neat, clean rivet heads, as I found when making my little 'hybrid':
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/another-sort-hybrid-109854/
This was a bit of a practice run for the full dovetail job, and I should have stuck with what I learnt!

Derek, I WILL change the screws. I'm now leaning to plain, countersunk slotted brass as they will at least match the others.

I have a Speyrs non-adjustable infill that was re-stuffed in Australia.

The front bun is very much like your Norris there. Being quite/very new, the rear sloping edge is not eased at all with use so is quite hard on the meat of the palm quite quickly.

So that is what I like about yours Ian - the rear of the front bun looks very comfortable for using.

Paul - I can't for the life of me figure out why they make them with that sharp back edge. My Norris is well-used and the edge is slightly worn, but still hopelessly uncomfortable for the hand position I prefer. I would cheerfully take a rasp to the darn thing, but I seriously do want to sell it on, so curbed my vandalistic impulse.

I can only think the shape was meant to actively discourage putting your palm on top and to force users to hold the front of the plane in that awkward, bent-wristed hold that you see folks using on woodies. I don't LIKE being forced into holding a tool in a particulaar way just because some 'authority' decrees "this is how it's done"............ :;

Cheers,
I'm off to the shed before the heat drives me back in the house

lightwood

11th January 2012, 09:46 AM

Thanks folks - it seems we are all happier, now. (I certainly am :U).

I'm glad I didn't persist with my original idea of having the top of the bun sticking out about 12mm and rounded into a sort of 'snout'. Don't know what I was thinking, just wanted my plane to be different from the pack. But by degrees, I've crept back to pretty much a standard bun & ended my flirtation with radicalism.

.....................

I don't LIKE being forced into holding a tool in a particulaar way just because some 'authority' decrees "this is how it's done"............ :;

Cheers,
I'm off to the shed before the heat drives me back in the house

Ian,
Great to see the plane is pretty much done. Well done!

One of the things I love about collecting many old tools, especially planes, is that you often see and FEEL the hand print left by a lifetime of use by a previous user.
It's pretty obvious some would try and make a really uncomfortable grip better, and some would just alter the grip to what must have been a contortion to use a tool.
I have small hands but I have a couple of closed handles on named infill planes that just can't even fit my hand without pushing a knuckle into the front of the handle opening.
I love to see tools with so much use that the tool handle has accommodated the hand through wear alone, or patches of corrosion from contact with fingers.
The tools from my dad's workshop, and those that came to me through him that belonged to my grandfather, especially evoke a special feeling when placing the hand where those before me held and used it.

Regards,
Peter

pmcgee

11th January 2012, 08:48 PM

I have a Speirs non-adjustable infill that was re-stuffed in Australia.

The front bun is very much like your Norris there. Being quite/very new, the rear sloping edge is not eased at all with use so is quite hard on the meat of the palm quite quickly.

So that is what I like about yours Ian - the rear of the front bun looks very comfortable for using.

Cheers,
Paul McGee

I mis-spoke (-wrote?) ... how unusual. :roll:

For a start, "So that is what I like about yours Ian" should have been "So that is *One* of the things I like about yours" ... the plane is excellent.
And I **really** like the look of your hybrid plane.

I compared my Spiers infill bun to your Norris, but I was wrong. If you check the photo you will see it was built for a hand of steel.

The second photo of a Preston I have is the nicest bun I have ever had my hands on. :p
... OK ...
yes ...
I don't get out much. :rolleyes:

I really like the shape of your bun ... and there are very few men I have said that to! :U

Cheers,
Paul

PS - I note with jealous eyes the difference in the bedding angles between these two and yours. :weeping2:

IanW

12th January 2012, 08:53 AM

.....
I compared my Spiers infill bun to your Norris, but I was wrong. If you check the photo you will see it was built for a hand of steel.

The second photo of a Preston I have is the nicest bun I have ever had my hands on.

Paul, I reckon the Spiers could be greatly improved by taking a rasp & files & some sandpaper to that sharp back angle. Since it is already a replacement of the original woodwork, I would't think twice about modifying it to my own taste if it were mine. You could easily turn it into something quite like the one on your Preston, judging by the pics. Interesting to me that the Preston bun is very like my Norris, the difference being the back edge has ben eased off instead of being left sharp. I wonder if that is original, or if some owner has taken to it?

.....
PS - I note with jealous eyes the difference in the bedding angles between these two and yours. :weeping2:

Ah well, that's the advantage of rolling your own! But take it from me that while high cutting angles work very well in some situations, they are not the answer to every prayer. As has been noted by others, a higher cutting angle does mean a bit more effort pushing, though it isn't all that big a deal in most situations, and you gain on some woods because you reach a good surface with fewer strokes. (And my little monster weighs in at 2.2Kg, which is considerably more than the similar-sized Norris, so it keeps moving once started).

But on softer woods, it doesn't leave that glassy surface that a sharp blade & lower cutting angle can achieve. That's partly due to blade sharpness and partly cutting angle. I'm running an 'Acadamy' blade in it, and it's a bear of a thing to sharpen to a really fine edge. I can get it shaving-sharp easily enough, but the edge seems to have a very fine 'roughness' to it. I use a white Arkansas stone for final polishing, which does a great job on all my other blades, but maybe I need something finer for this one??

So it's horses for courses - I'm lucky to have a choice of 4 cutting angles, now, from 45* to 60*. It's interesting to me that sometimes a few degrees change makes a big difference and sometimes little or no difference to the quality of the surface.

All good fun, but for the next month or two, I am going to just enjoy using tools while I churn out some 'orders'. I have maybe two more planes planned, and then I'm retiring from the plane-making business completely, forever, read my lips & all that. (Please no-one remind me I said that about saws about 30 examples ago, I want to believe I mean it......:C)

.....
I really like the shape of your bun ... and there are very few men I have said that to!

:o I think you're the first man who's said that to me! I guess it was inevitable that I'd draw a quip or two like that...... :U

Cheers,

pmcgee

12th January 2012, 10:56 AM

Paul, I reckon the Spiers could be greatly improved by taking a rasp & files & some sandpaper to that sharp back angle. Since it is already a replacement of the original woodwork, I would't think twice about modifying it to my own taste if it were mine.
Cheers,

Not I, said the fly! :o
Not in the forseeable future. Someone - I should know but would have to search back for the info - did a beautifully professional job in stuffing that plane, and I don't have anything like the experience to feel competent in adjusting the bun. I'm sure I could *stuff* it ... just not in a good way :)
Maybe much later, but not soon.

Interesting to me that the Preston bun is very like my Norris, the difference being the back edge has ben eased off instead of being left sharp. I wonder if that is original, or if some owner has taken to it?
Cheers,

I'm sure it hasn't been actively adjusted ... I think it is that great "handrail effect" that makes it so nice in the hand. Worn by use like Peter said. The two profiles are quite different, (see photos) but it occurs to me that the wood and finish might play a big part. The rosewood of the Preston feels like the lignum vitae on the base of my Primus planes ... a liquid-like feel. The beech of the A5 and the walnut of the Spiers have a very dry feeling.

I'd love to feel what a Norris in rosewood feels like.

Now ... not to barrage you with questions but ...

What did you finish the wood with?
Do you miss the Norris adjuster?
Did you consider a button on the bun?
Does anyone tap a handled infill on the back of the handle?
What sort of hammer do you like for adjustments?
And how often do you think you would be re-sharpening the blade if you were using it on a project?

:U

Paul.

derekcohen

12th January 2012, 12:40 PM

Hi Ian

Just for interest ...

I came upon this Norris #A6 by Karl Holtey (who's starting to make progress with his planes - almost up to our standards .. ) :U

http://www.holteyplanes.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Holtey-A6-Smoother-83.jpg

http://www.holteyplanes.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Holtey-A6-Smoother-84.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

IanW

12th January 2012, 12:53 PM

Not I, said the fly! :o
Not in the forseeable future. Someone - I should know but would have to search back for the info - did a beautifully professional job in stuffing that plane, and I don't have anything like the experience to feel competent in adjusting the bun. I'm sure I could *stuff* it ... just not in a good way :)
Maybe much later, but not soon.

Paul, my attitude would be that if it was annoying me in use, I'd take action! :~ If I was planning on keeping the Norris forever, it would feel the wrath of a rasp today, let me tell you. However, my approach has occasionally (often?) gotten me into situations where I wished I hadn't ventured! :;

Now ... not to barrage you with questions but ...

1. What did you finish the wood with?
2. Do you miss the Norris adjuster?
3. Did you consider a button on the bun?
4. Does anyone tap a handled infill on the back of the handle?
5. What sort of hammer do you like for adjustments?
6. And how often do you think you would be re-sharpening the blade if you were using it on a project?

1. The wood is finished with one heavy coat of shellac to 'seal' it (to protect it from the polishing compound when the brass was being buffed). That was followed by a coat of shellawax buffed up on a cloth wheel.

2. I don't miss the adjuster for a second. They are grossly over-rated, IMO. I can set my new plane as quickly or even quicker than I can set the Norris. The lateral adjuster has always been a bit scrappy, you have to apply just the right amount of screw pressure to get it to move smoothly - it can be frustrating, at times.

3. Nope. Quite unnecessary on a plane with a screw lever cap, IMO.

4. Don't know abouit others, but I most certainly wouldn't!

5. I prefer the hammer that's within reach, usually. :U I did make a nice little brass hammer for adjusting my non-screw-adjuster planes, & when I am thinking ahead, I do get it out of its drawer & use it. I guess I should make a place for it on the board behind my bench, so it's always to hand...

In fact, it takes only the gentlest of taps to align or advance the blade if you ease off the screw slightly. To set this type of plane I just sit it on a clean, flat hardwood block(Derek Cohen advocates glass), insert the blade carefully, feeling that the cutting end is sitting square, then tighten the screw a bit. Move the plane forward, & if the blade catches, loosen the screw a bit & push it a little more so that the blade will be pushed back to a zero or near zero setting. Tighten screw & try - it will probably need a couple of light taps to advance it to the right setting. Takes longer to describe than do.

"Bench" planes like a jack need frequent adjusting for coarser & finer cuts (well, they way I use them they do), which is why the woody equivalents are usually equipped for walloping with mallets or hammers to make the process quick & easy (though somewhat lacking in finesse). You really don't need front buttons at all, I reckon. Hitting the front advances the blade, but you can do that more easily & controllably by tapping the blade itself, so they really only need a wallop at the back to loosen or retract the blade (you really have to wonder about what some blokes are thinking when you see the tops of old woody blades severely belled over! :o). I would never strike the back of a handled plane like we are discussing - that handle is already the weak point of the whole construction. Fortunately, once set, you rarely need to alter the cut - a plane like this is for fine finishing, so it's a 'set once & leave until next sharpening is required' sort of tool.

6. That's one of those 'how long is a piece of string?' questions. It depends on the quality of the blade itself plus what you are planing. Also, these are set for very fine cuts, which is a bit easier on the edge, but otoh, you make a lot of passes over the wood, causing more wear. The Academy blade in mine is bl**dy hard. Probably a bit too hard, really. It's like a carbide saw blade, in that the dullness sneaks up slowly, & it's only after a while you realise you've been working harder than you ought. Also, becaause it is such a cow of a thing to sharpen on my stones, I tend to avoid doing so as long as possible.

I could probably use it several hours a day for a week on Maple or something like that, but I think a half hour of planing she-oak would take the gloss off it. It might give a better idea if I said that this blade lasts about twice as long as the Lee Valley HSS blades in my bench planes, which in turn last about 50% or more longer than the original carbon-steel blades....

Hope that barrage of answers helps.....

Cheers,

IanW

12th January 2012, 01:04 PM

Hi Ian

Just for interest ...

I came upon this Norris #A6 by Karl Holtey (who's starting to make progress with his planes - almost up to our standards .. ) :U

Yairs, Derek, his level of workmanship is almost up to mine. :U
(It makes mine look like a poor cousin!).

Looking at those pictures confirms that I should have stuck with my plan of using steel rivets. I have made some neew screws for the lever cap out of stainless steel, I counter-sunk them, and slightly domed the head, but didn't slot them, just screwed them in finger-tight, with a bit of Locktite to hold them in place. They look heaps better.

However, the sharp rear edge on that bun makes me think that while Karl builds magnificent planes, he doesn't use them much..... :;

Cheers,

pmcgee

13th January 2012, 05:50 AM

Thanks for the answers Ian. Do you like the "hand-feel" of the handles of your new plane as it is now?

Quick comparison (photos from an ebay listing) - a rosewood A5.
I think this has definitely been "worn in" very nicely ... but it also looks a bit different to the bun on my post-ww2 example I think.

Thanks,
Paul.

IanW

13th January 2012, 09:54 AM

.... Do you like the "hand-feel" of the handles of your new plane as it is now?

Paul, yes, I like the She-oak very much. You commented previously on the tactile qualities of genuine Rosewood, well, She-oak comes very close to matching it, I reckon. It's a litle harder to work, and can be a bit splitty, particularly if a large medullary ray crosses an edge, but it takes a fine finish relatively easily. I sand to 400 grit, then polish off with oooo steel wool before applying the Shellac or Shellawax. (And I get it for free - hate to think what that gorgeous chunk of Rosewood on the Holtey plane would cost me! :o)

Two other woods that are also excellent for giving a fine surface are Bull oak and Mulga. I'm sure there are plenty of others, but these 3 I have used quite a lot for handles, etc.

The hard part is getting suitable sized chunks for plane stuffing- our Casaurinas are very prone to splitting if not handled ultra carefully when drying, and Mulga doesn't make very big trees. I'd like to get my hands on some good-sized pieces of Mulga - it would tempt me to break my vow not to make any more planes!

.... but it also looks a bit different to the bun on my post-ww2 example I think.

I would imagine many buns got a bit of after-market attention from owners, so it's not surprising we see some variation today.

Apparently, the original Norris factory ceased to exist sometime around 1944, and "post-war" Norrises were made by another mob using a slightly different name. That could also explain some differences.
See here:
The Norris story (http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/articles/norris.htm)

Cheers,