Question for Woodwould- Barley twist bines.

[tea lady]

I have been reading you Blog. A Pair of Walnut Carolean Stools Pegs and 'Tails (http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/a-pair-of-walnut-carolean-stools/)
Lots of good info and entertaining reading.

How the hell did you turn these? :oo: We will have to get you to one of our Turnfests to wow and amaze us.:cool:

http://pegsandtails.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/carolean_stools_01b.jpg?w=500&h=288

http://pegsandtails.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/carolean_stools_02b.jpg?w=500&h=286

http://pegsandtails.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/carolean_stools_03b.jpg?w=500&h=341
You blithely say "With a turning gouge in hand, the lathe was started at a slow speed and the gouge introduced to the start of the thread. One has to be confident and determined when turning bines as there are obviously no second chances." Exactly which slow speed and which gouge? :think: 100ishRPM? Spindle gouge?

Maybe I will have a go with some pine. The results might be a little on the hilarious side.:D I don't know if my lathe would go slow enough. May one of 's will. They have probably never been that slow.:oo::rolleyes::D

[Woodwould]

I set the lathe at the slowest speed (perhaps 150 RPM; I don't have the old lathe any more) and used a spindle gouge. The idea is just to get a bine started which can then be worked on and improved with subsequent passes. Even at the slow speed involved, you have to be prepared to move along sideways at a fairy rapid rate which is not initially intuitive. However, once the bine is established, it's surprisingly easy to follow and refine it.

Give it a go, it will bring a smile to your face!

[tea lady]

I will. :D

[Texian]

What's a "bine"? Aw c'mon, those are turned freehand? I gotta try that too. Bet it will indeed be amusing.

[Woodwould]

What's a "bine"? Aw c'mon, those are turned freehand? I gotta try that too. Bet it will indeed be amusing.
A bine is a thread or helix. Hence Woodbine (or Honeysuckle); the creeper that threads itself around other hedge plants. I think there are other plants with 'bine' in their names too.

[Woodwould]

Wikipedia to the rescue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bine_%28botany%29)!

[tea lady]

Well my lathe only goes down to 600RPM. A bit too fast. Very hiarious results, but I can see that it might be possible. Even at that speed the chisel starts to go in its own thread. I think a speed where you can see the pencil marks going around would be the go. Will have to try it at 's.http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

You might still have to come and show us Woodwould.:U

[Woodwould]

Well my lathe only goes down to 600RPM. A bit too fast. Very hiarious results, but I can see that it might be possible. Even at that speed the chisel starts to go in its own thread. I think a speed where you can see the pencil marks going around would be the go. Will have to try it at 's.http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
You're correct, until you've turned one or two, you really need to be able to visually follow the drawn bine.


You might still have to come and show us Woodwould.:U
You don't need me; you understand the principle and have come close to creating a bine, so all that's required now is practice.

[wheelinround]

TL there are many ways these are done here's one File:Spiral turning lathe (Carpentry and Joinery, 1925).jpg - Wikimedia Commons (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Spiral_turning_lathe_%28Carpentry_and_Joinery,_1925%29.jpg)

A Jacobean Lathe is another

get a hold of this book by Mortimer Amazon.com: Techniques of Spiral Work: A Practical Guide to the Craft of Making Twists by Hand (9780854420636): Stuart Mortimer, Andrew Mortimer: Books :2tsup:

[Sawdust Maker]

approx $95 US
cheap :roll:

TL
did you use a gouge or a skew?

PS: I read somewhere that if you do the pencil line, then lightly cut that line with a saw, it is easier to get started with the chisel
can't say if it works as I've not had a go

[orraloon]

My lathe only goes down to 350 so I will have to wait untill I have invested in a VS setup.
I do have a plan to start it on the tablesaw and finish on the lathe with rasp and sandpaper. Just need a project that needs a jackobean twists.
Regards
John

[tea lady]

TL
did you use a gouge or a skew?Used a gouge, although the thought did cross my mind that this could be a use for the dreaded skew spiral. If you could repeat it consistently. :doh:

PS: I read somewhere that if you do the pencil line, then lightly cut that line with a saw, it is easier to get started with the chisel
can't say if it works as I've not had a goI was gonna try, when I get a slower lathe to play on, to get the timing by redrawing the pencil line a bit with the lathe going. Then at it with the gouge. :shrug: :cool:

[tea lady]

My lathe only goes down to 350 so I will have to wait untill I have invested in a VS setup.
I do have a plan to start it on the tablesaw and finish on the lathe with rasp and sandpaper. Just need a project that needs a jackobean twists.
Regards
John350 is nearly half of what mine was going. Could be doable.:D

[AlexS]

An American colleague does them by marking a helix on a cylinder using masking tape, then making a saw cut of uniform depth, and finally carving the bine. He probably uses this method as he is mainly a carver, but it seems to work for him.
WW, friends have a table with barleycorn twist legs. Three of the legs have right hand threads, one has left hand. They all seem to be original legs as far as I can tell. What was the convention? All twisting one way, two each way or didn't they worry?

[Woodwould]

WW, friends have a table with barleycorn twist legs. Three of the legs have right hand threads, one has left hand. They all seem to be original legs as far as I can tell. What was the convention? All twisting one way, two each way or didn't they worry?

Historically, 'barley twist' legs appeared briefly in joyned Oak stools and side tables around 1660 and fell from favour again around 1725. Traditionally, the bines spin clockwise - right-handed, which operation falls naturally to a right-handed turner (Chinnery illustrates an anti-clockwise-legged stool and I've only ever seen one example in the flesh – undoubtedly the work of left-handed turners).

Victorians rediscovered barley twists, and with their propensity to 'improve' everything, often balanced right-handed bines with an equal number of left-handed ones (a bit difficult with a three-legged table, I admit!). Those turnings with left-hand bines were machine made – any hand-made Victorian barley-twists I've seen were all right-handed.

I've seen re-finished and distressed Victorian Oak joyned stools in junk shops with right-hand and left-hand twist legs being sold as 17th century stools. The alternate twists were a bit of a giveaway (see image).

[wheelinround]

WW your a wealth of historical info

[Woodwould]

WW your a wealth of historical info
Hmmm, maybe, but I can't remember to put my pants on in the mornings!

[wheelinround]

Hmmm, maybe, but I can't remember to put my pants on in the mornings!

:)(:yuk:

[Ed Reiss]

here you go TL...the easy way :2tsup:

YouTube - barley twist stair baluster

[Texian]

Thanks WW. Keep forgeting we can look up anything on line these days.

[Woodwould]

here you go TL...the easy way :2tsup:

YouTube - barley twist stair baluster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hASG9f6BLRU)
... and don't they just look every bit machine made. Interesting to see the process nonetheless.

[AlexS]

... and don't they just look every bit machine made.

Rough enough's good enough. Like the big chunk taken out at the start of the cut.

[tea lady]

here you go TL...the easy way :2tsup:
The easy way? Off with your head. :D Besides its more fun the Woodwould way.:cool:

[joe greiner]

And here's the hard way: http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/cart-before-horse-57412/

Cheers,
Joe

[Ed Reiss]

The easy way? Off with your head. :D Besides its more fun the Woodwould way.:cool:

I agree, not with the head part though :o:C:D

[tea lady]

And here's the hard way: http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/cart-before-horse-57412/

Cheers,
Joe:D:cool:

[tea lady]

So was kept entertained on Thursday arvo laughing at my feeble attempt at a spiral twisty thing. :rolleyes: He kept saying "That's why I made a machine to do them":doh: So anyway, here is the pathetic thing for you all to marvel at....... not! :C It looks roughly like a spiral. Emphasis on "roughly".:rolleyes: So I still don't believe that you hand turned all those bines Woodwould. And all so neatly. :hmm: 's lathe can go down to about 150 RPM (which was surprising in its self.:D ) But it still seems a bit fast. :C I'll prolly have another go or two. I hate it when I can't do anything. But I might be a ways off making a candle stick holder, let alone a set on stools. :rolleyes:

Ya might still have to come and show us how its done Woodwould.:D

[Woodwould]

It looks like you gave it a fair go, but as we discussed on Thursday morning, I think you need to find a lathe with a slow enough speed that you can more or less follow the guide bine by eye.

I watched an old bloke about forty years ago turning bines on a wooden lathe that was hand-cranked by his brother. Maybe that should be your next project; build a simple wooden lathe and then get Laughing Boy to crank it for you.

[tea lady]

It looks like you gave it a fair go, but as we discussed on Thursday morning, I think you need to find a lathe with a slow enough speed that you can more or less follow the guide bine by eye.

I watched an old bloke about forty years ago turning bines on a wooden lathe that was hand-cranked by his brother. Maybe that should be your next project; build a simple wooden lathe and then get Laughing Boy to crank it for you.:think: Hmm! Might just do that.:D (:hmm: but you said you turned thosae ones. What speed were they done on? :?: )

[Woodwould]

Our discussions on speed lead me to doubt my memory and I have no clear recollection of the actual RPM of that lathe, but as said, it revolved slowly enough to enable me to visually follow the bine.

[tea lady]

Our discussions on speed lead me to doubt my memory and I have no clear recollection of the actual RPM of that lathe, but as said, it revolved slowly enough to enable me to visually follow the bine.Maybe you have fast eyes.:D

[DJ’s Timber]

If you want to use my lathe Anne, you're welcome, mine will go down to 10rpm

[Woodwould]

Maybe you have fast eyes.:D
None of me is fast any longer... not even mildly brisk.

[tea lady]

If you want to use my lathe Anne, you're welcome, mine will go down to 10rpm:D Two things to drop in at your place for now.:cool:

[tea lady]

None of me is fast any longer... not even mildly brisk.Only your wit, I would say.:D (But other things aren't to bad gravity assisted.:p:D )

[Allen Neighbors]

WW, friends have a table with barleycorn twist legs. Three of the legs have right hand threads, one has left hand. They all seem to be original legs as far as I can tell. What was the convention? All twisting one way, two each way or didn't they worry?

One of 'ems just mounted upside down. :D:oo::doh: