Rusty Plane

[Twisted Tenon]

I recently "won" a Stanley No4 plane on ebay. As you can see it was worth every bit of the $5.00 I paid for it. I plan to have a bit of fun doing it up and giving it to one of my brothers as a birthday present in June this year. Yep that's a plastic tote and I think I have the where with all to attempt to make another one. I will need to find a local wood turner who would turn up a new knob. I know it would be easier to just buy a new set from a supplier but this is more interesting.

So here's the problem, a few years ago I cleaned up some old tools of my fathers using a lanolin oil in an aerosol can. It did a fantastic job. I sprayed all the components and left them sitting in an ice cream tub for a week and they all cleaned up beutifly with steel wool and fine emery paper.

So the can finally ran out and I went to Bunnngs to get another one. Only to find that they don't sell it any more and I can't remember what it was called. Just that it was in a green can. I eventually found a can of lanolin spray at BCF but this doesn't do the job at all. I read somewhere that some one achieved good results using molasses and coke. Is this true and does anyone know what the recipe is if it is true?:?

[Claw Hama]

Yep, there was a thread the other week about cleaning rusty tools, I use the molasses 50/50 with water, degrease first then drop everthing in may take one day or it might take a few, depends on the amout of rust. Just rub gently with a little steel wool on the bad areas while the goop is on. The Spray be be Lanox, blue can, most boating suppliers some garages etc have it. Handles, if you check the markets, ebay again etc you will usualy pick up another plane for parts cheaper than just buying handles.

[Virgil]

Well done. A No4 is always handy and you got it a pretty good price too. Very common plane so if you bugger this one you can easily get another.

As for rust removal I've tried a few things. Citric acid works well but can be a bit aggressive. I like molasses too. I use a 1 part molasses to 20 parts water solution. Works well takes a little longer than 50/50 but still does the job. I also like using electrolysis. Need a few more gizmos than just molasses ad water but works really well and is a interesting experiment. Here's a link: ELECTROLYTIC RUST REMOVAL (ELECTROLYSIS) (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm)

And if your lanolin spray product is Lanotec I know you can get it at Supercheap Auto and Repco.

Have fun,
Virg.

[jimbur]

I was converted to vinegar on this forum. It works. I use cleaning vinegar which is available in the supermarkets and soak the parts in it, usually overnight sometimes much much longer. It's just a matter of cleaning the scunge off then.
Cheers,
Jim

[Twisted Tenon]

I was converted to vinegar on this forum. It works. I use cleaning vinegar which is available in the supermarkets and soak the parts in it, usually overnight sometimes much much longer. It's just a matter of cleaning the scunge off then.
Cheers,
Jim
I remember as a kid dipping pennies into a mixture of salt and vinegar. Cleaned them up in no time. I don't have any molasses so I think i'll give it a go.

[Claw Hama]

Yes the vinigar does work quite well too, just I have 20ltr drum of Mol and don't mind dipping my fingers in now and then too. Vinigar isn't quite so nice. 20:1 Mol& water I think I would grow old waiting for that to work.:U

[Twisted Tenon]

Yep, there was a thread the other week about cleaning rusty tools, I use the molasses 50/50 with water, degrease first then drop everthing in may take one day or it might take a few, depends on the amout of rust. Just rub gently with a little steel wool on the bad areas while the goop is on. The Spray be be Lanox, blue can, most boating suppliers some garages etc have it. Handles, if you check the markets, ebay again etc you will usualy pick up another plane for parts cheaper than just buying handles

Thanks Claw Hama, Lanox it is. probably works well for what it is designed to do but not for de-rusting.
I picked up an incomplete number 4 a few years ago for $1.00. I only needed it for the lever cap. So that stuff is out there.
Steve

[Twisted Tenon]

And if your lanolin spray product is Lanotec I know you can get it at Supercheap Auto and Repco.

Lanotec sounds familiar. If it came in a green can then that's probably it. Havn't been in a Repco for years. I'l have a look this week.
Steve.

[Vann]

I remember as a kid dipping pennies into a mixture of salt and vinegar. Cleaned them up in no time. I prefer my potato chips in that mixture. I can clean them up quite quickly. Not sure what it does to my stomach though... :U:U

Cheers, Vann.

[beer is good]

I prefer my potato chips in that mixture. I can clean them up quite quickly. Not sure what it does to my stomach though... :U:U

Cheers, Vann.

Silly boy, it removes the rust from your stomach. :roflmao2:

[rsser]

Vinegar is acetic acid. If you're in a hurry you can use phosphoric acid (sold as Rust Remover Dissolver at Repco) but use gloves, safety glasses etc.

[Sebastiaan56]

How do you reckon Rust Remover would go on files?

(apols for the hijack)

[rsser]

Correction: it's Rust Dissolver

Files? dunno. You paint it on, let sit for 10-15 mins, then wipe off with damp cloth, and dry with cloth.

[seanz]

Just tried some lemon juice on a tree saw blade......it's a good start. Wash down with water, then on to the wet n dry and light oil technique.
Still plenty of rust though (there was a lot to start with), I've got some phosphoric acid and might try that later.

With the lemon juice, I just squirted it on, brushed it even and waited a few minutes.....the rust started to pool on top of the lemon juice.....not bad.

[Hobo]

Navil Jelly is great. It is a rust remover the US Navy developed.

You can use electrictiy in a vat to remove rust. There is more to it. You can look it up on the web.

[seanz]

Anybody know if there's a supplier of Naval Jelly in the Deepest South?
I just used phosphoric acid (dilute solution, apply with brush) and that seems to give a good result.....my 75 cent saw and my tree saw have a way to go but they look like they'll get there.....the big saw will take a lot more work.
So, for the big stuff.......anyone know where I can get some jelly.....or better still, how to make it?

[Sawdust Maker]

I recently "won" a Stanley No4 plane on ebay. As you can see it was worth every bit of the $5.00 I paid for it. I plan to have a bit of fun doing it up and giving it to one of my brothers as a birthday present in June this year. Yep that's a plastic tote and I think I have the where with all to attempt to make another one. I will need to find a local wood turner who would turn up a new knob. I know it would be easier to just buy a new set from a supplier but this is more interesting.


...

What plane?
didn't happen - no photos!
:worthless:

[Twisted Tenon]

[QUOTE=Hobo;1120896]Navil Jelly is great. It is a rust remover the US Navy developed.
Does it remove navel lint :D

[Twisted Tenon]

I'm still getting my head around uploading. I've included the before & after pics just in case I didn't get the originals right.
I used vinegar & salt and left it over night. I'm not sure if the vinegar would have worked on its own.
After that some steel wool and fine wet & dry paper with the lanolin oil seemed to do the trick.
It looks like the plane has seen hard times.

[Twisted Tenon]

I'm still getting my head around uploading. I've included the before & after pics just in case I didn't get the originals right.
I used vinegar & salt and left it over night. I'm not sure if the vinegar would have worked on its own.
After that some steel wool and fine wet & dry paper with the lanolin oil seemed to do the trick.
It looks like the plane has seen hard times.
2nd attempt

[Woodlee]

How do you reckon Rust Remover would go on files?

(apols for the hijack)


I use cleaning vinegar to clean and sharpen my metal working files ,clean them first with a file card and remove any stubborn pinnigs with a sharp pointed object .
Immerse the files into the cleaning vinegar and leave for a couple of days .Remove them and wash the scum off , scrub with a nylon brush and warm soapy water to get the black stuff off.
I then stand the files up and spray with a water dispersant like wd40 or CRC 5-56.
Wipe them with a cloth to remove the excess crc.

Kev.

[rsser]

Looking good TT.

Have you checked the sole for flatness?

[Twisted Tenon]

Thanks Ern. I ran a square over the plate and there appears to be a slight hollow offset to the RHS of the plate. like in the thousands of an inch. It runs for the length of the plate and my guess is that it is so small that it doesn't matter.

[wheelinround]

I use cleaning vinegar to clean and sharpen my metal working files ,clean them first with a file card and remove any stubborn pinnigs with a sharp pointed object .
Immerse the files into the cleaning vinegar and leave for a couple of days .Remove them and wash the scum off , scrub with a nylon brush and warm soapy water to get the black stuff off.
I then stand the files up and spray with a water dispersant like wd40 or CRC 5-56.
Wipe them with a cloth to remove the excess crc.

Kev.


Old navel engineer next door says to then rub chalk along the files :2tsup:

[rsser]

Thanks Ern. I ran a square over the plate and there appears to be a slight hollow offset to the RHS of the plate. like in the thousands of an inch. It runs for the length of the plate and my guess is that it is so small that it doesn't matter.

Is the concavity on the front or rear side of the mouth?

I'm a plane novice but wld guess it might matter if you want shavings of a thou or 2 in fine finishing. Those more expert will be able to advise better.

[mic-d]

Thanks Ern. I ran a square over the plate and there appears to be a slight hollow offset to the RHS of the plate. like in the thousands of an inch. It runs for the length of the plate and my guess is that it is so small that it doesn't matter.

the minimum you need for a functional plane sole are three flat coplanar areas on the sole, one area at the toe, one at the heel and the area across the front of the mouth. the last one is important not only as a bearing point to make the plane start the run positively, but also applies pressure to the area immediately in front of the blade and help prevent breakout of the grain.

cheers
m

[seanz]

Old navel engineer next door says to then rub chalk along the files :2tsup:

Did you ask him about the jelly? :p

Took me a minute to think why chalk was used, it's for the alkaline to neutralize the Ph, right?.......I was just interested in woodwork, now I'm into metalwork and chemistry....
:doh::;

[derekcohen]

Tuned in late ..

... no one mentioned citric acid?

Available at supermarkets. A couple of tubs in a bucket of warm water, and leave it for a week. Very safe to handle.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Luddite]

Hi,

Since we are talking rust removal.....I had to remove very heavy rust from the way tubes of an old Shopsmith I was restoring. Long, skinny uitems are difficult.

I picked up a tip that potatoes in water work. More curious than convinced, I put the tubes into a piece of stormwater pipe, filled it up with water and put 2 chopped up potatoes into the tube. I left it 2 weeks and then pulled them out expecting to hear....April Fools day. But I didn't. All that happened was that I hosed off the sludge and gave them a wipe down with a scourer and they were rust free. Incredible!

Just a warnng on this technique. The only downside is the smell of that water. Seriuosly, it made the dog run to her kennel! It is one of the worst smells I have ever encountered.

The technique really works if you can overcome the stink.

Interesting.

Anthony

[wheelinround]

Tuned in late ..

... no one mentioned citric acid?

Available at supermarkets. A couple of tubs in a bucket of warm water, and leave it for a week. Very safe to handle.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Always thought Lemon Juice or vingigar was citric

[wheelinround]

Did you ask him about the jelly? :p

Took me a minute to think why chalk was used, it's for the alkaline to neutralize the Ph, right?.......I was just interested in woodwork, now I'm into metalwork and chemistry....
:doh::;

No need he has it with his icecream :U

Chalk stops moisture soaks it up heavy thick talc is good to

I will check about the jelly :;

[Virgil]

Naval Jelly is Phosphoric Acid.
Phosphoric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid)

Hot stuff requiring lots of safety gear. I'm sure it works really well but at home I'd rather something less dangerous like citric acid or electrolysis.

We use citric acid at The Traditional Tools Group for sharpening files and general rust removal though some members don't like the etching effect it has on the iron or steel underneath. It does leave the metal grey and micro-pitted if you leave it too long. One of the members sells it by the kg bag, but smaller qtys can be bought in the super market. As Derek mentioned earlier it's very safe stuff, no gloves etc.

http://www.tttg.org.au/Content/Citric%20Acid%20Rust%20Removal%20Brochure%204.doc

I dunno about the salt and vinegar thing. Vinegar is just another mild acid which would work just fine but I feel as though adding salt when working on things ferrous (or ferric? Sorry I'm not metallurgist) seems counterintuitive.

I've seen that spuds thing on-line somewhere. Ah yes, here it is:
YouTube - Removing Rust with Potatoes
And here:
My Adventures in Rust Removal (potatoes and other chemicals) - Shopsmith Forums (http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showthread.htm?t=3343)
I would agree about the aroma. Rotten spuds is not far below dead lizards in the evil smells list.

Once you've cleaned it make sure you tune it well. See Jim Davey's page for great advice on plane tuning.
Jim Davey - Planes and Sharpening - PLANE FETTLING (http://www.jimdavey-planes-sharpening.com/page003.html)
Jim runs plane tuning workshops a TTTG and what he doesn't know about planes is not worth knowing.

Good luck, have fun and make sure you post plenty of pics of the finished result (and the shavings it makes!)

Cheers,
Virg.

[seanz]

Vinegar, salt and potatoes? Oh my..........:D

I'm enthusiastic about the potatoes idea and will try it as I have the raw material for free.
:2tsup:

Would it smell worse than the molasses treatment? :C

[wheelinround]

No wonder Salt & Vinigar potatoe chrisp clean me out :doh:

The potatoe isn't bad either just add flame and you have Gin or Hotch as the yanks call it.:U

[seanz]

G'day Virgil.....how's things in the Shire?
:)

I think the point of the Naval Jelly is it would be safer (and more efficient?) than applying the acid as a liquid. The rust remover (phosphoric acid) I used the other day was probably only as strong as the 'brightener' we used to remove concrete splashes.

[Twisted Tenon]

I dunno about the salt and vinegar thing. Vinegar is just another mild acid which would work just fine but I feel as though adding salt when working on things ferrous (or ferric? Sorry I'm not metallurgist) seems counterintuitive.

I tend to agree. I once left a penny over night and it partly dissolved. It's just something we did as kids. I don't remember who told us


Once you've cleaned it make sure you tune it well. See Jim Davey's page for great advice on plane tuning.
Jim Davey - Planes and Sharpening - PLANE FETTLING (http://www.jimdavey-planes-sharpening.com/page003.html)
Jim runs plane tuning workshops a TTTG and what he doesn't know about planes is not worth knowing.

Good luck, have fun and make sure you post plenty of pics of the finished result (and the shavings it makes!)

Cheers,
Virg.


Thanks for the link re fettling. I think the blade needs a lot of work though :no:

[Master Splinter]

Stop muckin' around with all these toy chemicals. A 10% solution of hydrochloric acid works wonders and will de-rust things inside minutes. Leaves an acid etched surface that is great for painting.

Do it outside, as the chlorine fumes really let you know where your nasal passages are. Gloves and eye protection recommended. Use on steel/iron only.

[Claw Hama]

Off course the mans right but I still like dipping my fingers in the molasses.:roll:

And the next cooking and food class will start in half an hour.:U

Oh and TT, your plane looks great, flaten the sole a little tuning and your makin shaveings.

[seanz]

Stop muckin' around with all these toy chemicals. A 10% solution of hydrochloric acid works wonders and will de-rust things inside minutes. Leaves an acid etched surface that is great for painting.

Do it outside, as the chlorine fumes really let you know where your nasal passages are. Gloves and eye protection recommended. Use on steel/iron only.

PPE is mandatory with hydrocloric...........20 years later and I still hate the stuff and so does my sinuses.
It's eeeeeeeevil.......'stick' with molasses. :q

[rsser]

Hmm, not sure I'd want pitting in the soles of my planes.

[rsser]

Have just been using some Rust Dissolver on a Stanley plane cheek. While it worked well to remove most of the bloodstains on a V plane this 2nd effort is a bit disappointing.

The rust was fairly thick but brown, not orange. 2 applications removed the surface rust but not some spots.

Instructions are to wire brush off loose rust, which I didn't think the plane exhibited, but will do that on the other cheek and try again.

Edit: that's now done; 2 treatments with the Phosphoric acid. Better result but still some way to go. Next time I'll use my metal buffing wheel instead. Be quicker. Evans in the piece in the next post reckons with flat sections abrasives might be a better way to go than acid.

[rsser]

Here's a useful discussion of citric acid rust removal by Peter Evans.

Orig location (http://www.tttg.org.au/php/tttg_Page.php?n=00)

[jimbur]

I dunno about the salt and vinegar thing. Vinegar is just another mild acid which would work just fine but I feel as though adding salt when working on things ferrous (or ferric? Sorry I'm not metallurgist) seems counterintuitive.

I agree with Virgil. After all most of the rust treatments were designed to stop corrosion in salt water.
Jim

[rsser]

Continuing with my K&H Rust Dissolver ...

Wikipedia says that P. acid converts iron oxide into ferric phosphate. Black in colour.

If light, this comes off with the wet and dry rag cleaning process as per instructions. If heavy it remains as a black deposit.

Wiki says it has to be scrubbed out, and using a coarse Scotchbrite I found that this does in fact work, leaving a shiny surface (still a bit of an effort with compromised hands; maybe coarse steel wool wld work better).

The plus here is that if the deposit is sitting in a pit (which in fact the rusting has of course created), these flexible abrasives get into it where using an abrasive on a flat surface will require leveling down to the bottom of the deepest pit (so why wld you bother with acid anyway).

[rsser]

Another episode ....

Moved on to a #7 sole and cheeks that had a light patina of rust and some pitting.

Best result to date, using 1 treatment with the Rust Dissolver and then hitting it with an abrasive wheel (tho not right up to the mouth) mounted in a drill.

IIRC the wheel was sold as a paint stripping tool; made by 3M, coarse brown scotchbrite kind of material, 25mm thick and 125mm diameter.

Better result than with a deburring wheel in a bench grinder; that was prob too dense to get into the milling marks on the cheeks.

....

There's also some rust on the plane some under the japanning, esp in the corners of the rib in front of the mouth and in the depressions of the text. Can see no alt've to stripping and using rust converter before repainting.

[rsser]

Stripped the Japanning. Took 2 goes with Citristrip and a small amount of scraping. Brass wire-brushed everything. A small cone shaped brush that came with the Ryobi Dremel-knockoff worked a treat in the corners.

Still some rust in the porous sections so painted the lot with K&H Rust Dissolver.

That turned the clean metal a mottled colour so I wire brushed everything again after clean-up.

Still some rust so I figured I'd used Ranex Rust Converter and paint over it.

Hmm, that turned out to be P. Acid as well. As best I could work out about half the the same strength as the Rust Dissolver.

That finished the job; turned the iron evenly grey so after clean up I masked the milled sections and the screw holes and sprayed on etch primer. Then two coats of enamel.

Now reading up on making your own totes. Doesn't need it but it might get one. Interesting project. This site (http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/planetote.html) looks useful. Any further suggestions for reading would be welcome. Why you wouldn't use a pilot round-over bit in the router table I don't know. Never done it so I there's a lot I don't know.

[Woodlee]

The chalk is used when filing steel ,it helps prevent "pin in" of the file teeth by small particles of steel that get stuck in the teeth.
These create large scratches on the surface being filed.

Kev.

[Sapling]

Have done neat hydrochloric acid on a flywheel/clutch setup left outside for a long time and it brought it up like new within a matter of minutes. Not the best because getting rid of the left over acid is a problem. Have done a few planes using the electrolysis method and think it works great. It's cheap, easy and getting rid of the leftovers only involves throwing it on the back lawn. A nice new brass coated wire buffing wheel is also handy.