help about japanese plane blade

[correntinos]

hi people I want to know if someone can explain me the anatomy of japanese plane blade thank you very much , and if someaone have picter is welcome


thanks javier from argentina

[ian]

Basicly it's a thin layer of hard relatively brittle steel laminated to a thick layer of soft pliable steel, with a hollow formed in the back.
When the cutting edge gets close to the hollow, the edge needs to be tapped out

picture?
http://japantool-iida.com/plane_smoothing/images/23.jpg

more info and images here Wood working tool, Japanese wood working tool shop (http://japantool-iida.com/index.html)
and here http://www.japanwoodworker.com/assets/images/product/JapanWoodworker/thumbs/01.200.60.jpg (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=01%2E200%2E60&dept_id=12936)The Japan Woodworker Catalog - Plane Blades (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=12936&s=JapanWoodworker)

[Sheets]

hi people I want to know if someone can explain me the anatomy of japanese plane blade thank you very much , and if someaone have picter is welcome


thanks javier from argentina

Hi correntinos,

Here: Fujihisa Japan tool_Explanation of plane (http://fujihisa.bzn.jp./pegi_a2.php?osCsid=92820f4b06293c2405f4ef80ee659d19)

is a web page with all the various parts of kanna (Japanese plane) explained (although, translated from Japanese to English there are some questionable terms and spellings). There is also information on conditioning the dai (good pictures, but again, the wording is a little confusing).

I hope this gets you started. Please ask more questions anytime.

Steve

[NeilS]

When the cutting edge gets close to the hollow, the edge needs to be tapped out



Tapping (ura-dashi) is used to straighten an edge. Some warping will occur after the blade has been tempered, an artifact of the bi-metal composition. The warp can increase over time. More noticeable in old unused blades.

Increasing the width between the hollow and cutting edge (it only has to be 1mm) is done by re-grinding the face of the blade (uraoshi). See the following thread in this forum for expert advice on how to do this.

How to Sharpen a Plane Blade Part1: How to Make a Beautiful Ura (Uraoshi Technique)
As I periodically do uraoshi on my plane and chisel blades, my challenge is to keep the hollow from shrinking too fast from the cutting edge. After all, the hollow is there to reduce the amount of hard steel that has to be flattened on the face of the cutting edge.

.....

[correntinos]

thanks a lot for yours quicky answer , sameone can tell me de procces of fabrication or forging of the blade, I know is lamineated bi metalic, melting a piece of iron and e high carbom stell ( white steel) , if sameone have information about frging the blade is welcome

thank to everybody

javier from the other sido of the world

[NeilS]

Hi Javier

Blade lamination is a skilled craft that may not be adequately covered here on this forum.

Can't speak for other members of the forum, but it's not something I've done myself.

Perhaps as a starting point try the forum The Cutlers Forge... (http://www.britishblades.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?4-The-Cutlers-Forge...)

You can also buy ready made laminated blade steel, eg here (http://www.knivesaustralia.com.au/steel.html)

.....

[correntinos]

thaks neils for the reply I m studing the posibility or forge some laminated tools , thanks a los

javier from argentina

[correntinos]

someone can tell me, if de two blades of the plane are sharpening , my question is about the chip is sharpenin too

thamks a lot

[Sheets]

someone can tell me, if de two blades of the plane are sharpening , my question is about the chip is sharpenin too

thamks a lot

If you are referring to the chip breaker or sub-blade (ura-gane or osae-gane in Japanese), it is sharpened but not usually to a knife edge. Rather, it has a relatively steep secondary bevel applied (about 60 deg - the primary bevel angle is around 20 deg). The steep, secondary bevel is not very wide, perhaps .5 to 1 mm. The ura-gane does not need to be sharpened as often as the main blade, but check it for condition and keep it clean.

It is most important that the chip breaker and main blade fit tightly together (no space between them), so the ura-gane must be flattened as well. If the two blades don't lie flat together after flattening (one corner of the chip breaker is higher than the other) you can equalize the difference by adjusting (increasing or decreasing the bend on the opposite corner). In use, the ura-gane is set very close to but always slightly back from the cutting edge. Very close for fine shavings (about .5 mm) and slightly farther back for thicker shavings (about 1 mm).

Hope this helps answer your question.

Steve

[correntinos]

thaks a lot sheets , It too dificult to me, can take information about japanese tool , we have in my city very few japanese and nobody know about japanese tools , know somebody can tell me how the japonese bladesmith do the hollow in the blade ( I think with a sen but I m not sure )

[yojimbo]

Steve, isn't that information around here somewhere? I recall someone posting some killer videos of blacksmiths at work, but I'm not sure if they covered the creation of the ura... Counting on your brain to be functioning better than mine.... (I'm a fool, I know.)

[correntinos]

thanks a lot for your help if someone have some information about the videos , I m very interesting and It will be very useful for me

thanks again
javier from the other side of the world

[Sheets]

Steve, isn't that information around here somewhere? I recall someone posting some killer videos of blacksmiths at work, but I'm not sure if they covered the creation of the ura... Counting on your brain to be functioning better than mine.... (I'm a fool, I know.)

My brain works most of the time - unfortunately, that doesn't guarantee anything productive. The rest of me - ah, never mind...

However, I did bookmark the link to those videos (all in Japanese, but the pictures tell the story). Here:
http://web.mac.com/nami_aru/Daiku/いらっしゃい.html

The ura is created either by sen (scraping) or by grinding. I think the hand grind method is shown for a kanna, but they also have very large radius abrasive wheels as well. I suspect that kanna and nomi would have the ura done by grinding more commonly than by sen, but noko are almost always scraped if hand made (as far as I know).

[yojimbo]

I remember the films now -- I'm almost sure (I haven't gone there yet) they used a large wheel.

But I'm sure our new pal, correntinos, will enjoy the videos -- they're really fascinating.

Thanks for pulling up that link: I had it on my old (late, dead, breathed its last) computer, but clearly I've lost the bookmark.

[correntinos]

thank a lot for your answer , in the video when the bladesmith temple for hardering the blade use ( first I think is clay but reading I read the japanese bladesmith use miso for templer the blade ) someone know if the miso is mistured whit other ingredients

thamks a lot
javier

[correntinos]

when I write templer I want to write hardering

excuse I have a bad english

[yojimbo]

No problem, Javier. What you mean to say is "temper." See definitions 5 and 6 here:
Temper | Define Temper at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/temper)

You've been perfectly understandable. Don't worry about it. If you need help with a word, just ask. We're all friendly sorts.

[correntinos]

hardering ( when you cool a steel very hot )

thanks a lot

[Sheets]

thank a lot for your answer , in the video when the bladesmith temple for hardering the blade use ( first I think is clay but reading I read the japanese bladesmith use miso for templer the blade ) someone know if the miso is mistured whit other ingredients

thamks a lot
javier

Hi (shall we call you Javier?),

I wouldn't think something like miso would work because it would just burn up?

Clay of some type (I have a book on Japanese swordsmithing which describes the mixture as clay, charcoal powder, and pulverized stone [ohmura - a rough natural stone used in sharpening which keeps the clay from shrinking and cracking too much as it dries] in roughly equal parts), would serve to keep oxygen away from the steel surface and provide some insulation during the quench? (it does for swords [insulate], but I'm not sure if it has this function for tool making as well). The charcoal powder is said to help control the rate of heating and cooling, but doesn't explain how this would work. It would provide some carbon to possibly be available to be absorbed by the steel at the right temperature? Again, I'm not sure as the book doesn't explain.

Perhaps someone else knows more about the blacksmithing aspect.

[correntinos]

yes you can sheets I know about the the clay formule for quench the japanese swords a bladesmith master in argentina use this formule but He put a bit of honey too , and the formule have diferent kind , for the hamon , y think for the tool like you said is different the formule , I think is whit miso but I dont have the ingredients to test the mixture ( I only know one of the ingredients is miso and the other is salt )

thank a los for your tolerance

[ian]

Hi Javier

Miso is soy bean paste, I mostly know it as a flavoured soup -- think water -- but there's no reason that a much thicker "soup" could be made and used as a quench bath.

[correntinos]

thanks but is miso used ?????

[ian]

I don't know

I've heard of blacksmiths using urine to quench sword blades,
there's nothing I know of that would make a miso soup unsuitable

However, the type of steel and its temperature prior to quenching are more important and almost entirely dependant upon the skill of the blacksmith

[yojimbo]

Re: "I wouldn't think something like miso would work because it would just burn up?"

A Japanese client who sells antiques (including much old fire-fighting equipment) told me that every woman in every house in Japan used to keep a spare (large) pot of miso going in case of fire: when a fire broke out, the community would go out and seal the doors to their kura with miso, and the kura never burned down.

Now, I have no idea how much hyperbole there is in that story, but apparently miso has tremendous fire-resistant properties.

[correntinos]

thanks a lot for your anwers

good greeting for all


javier

[Sheets]

Hi Javier

Miso is soy bean paste, I mostly know it as a flavoured soup -- think water -- but there's no reason that a much thicker "soup" could be made and used as a quench bath.

I can see the miso as a quench medium, but I think the reference here (unless I'm mistaken) to the use of a clay mixture, is applied to the blade before its heated to hardening temperature. That's why I think miso (even if dry) would not survive because its a combustible material. Its possible that miso is part of the mixture and like the charcoal powder for swords, acts in some way within the mixture because it is combustible and a source of some modifying action. I wish I knew more about it.

Its a problem perhaps because we are not reading from the same book(s).

I re-watched the video on making kanna and noticed the smith did use a sen, but it only showed him doing so on the omote (front side). Also, any hammer work(beyond the forging stages), and the forming of the ura and inscribing his kanji was all done in the annealed state (as would be expected). When he applied the liquid just prior to hardening (although not shown, the liquid paste would be allowed to dry), it was a very thin layer, so likely just to keep the hagane (edge steel) from oxidizing in the fire and then when quenched, prevents the bubbles in the water from insulating areas of the blade and causing differential cooling (I think it would). The part where he's taking the kanna out of a blackish liquid I think would have been the tempering stage (the liquid - oil? - would have been heated and now cooled in the video. I wish I could understand the explanation. I notice too, that he does ura-dashi (tapping out) I'm guessing because of distortion in the surface caused by the quenching or because the initial hollow grind on the ura went right past the edge at that stage. Lastly, he is passing the ura over a stone at the very end which I think is a flat stone and he's just defining the flats around the hollow. I know many kanna sold new leave that entirely up to the new owner (along with sharpening the edge, refining the rough bevel and grinding the mimi [ears]).

Does that all make sense?

Steve

[yojimbo]

Yep! :)

[correntinos]

yes sheets it s very sense yours words, I try to made a miso paste , but whit cold water but I can do a paste similar to the video , I will try cooking miso whit salt , Ithink if the japanese blacksmith paint the blade whit miso paste , they try to absorb the change of temperature ( 800 c a 60 c to prevent distortion in the blade ), Ithink in the video they dont use charcoal (if the use the paste will be black as the cly used in the katana sharp ) I try again cooking the miso whit salt and I will tell you the results


thank a lot al the helps is welcome

thanks a lot javier

[NeilS]

Makes sense to me Steve, from what I know secondhand from others.

....

[Sheets]

yes sheets it s very sense yours words, I try to made a miso paste , but whit cold water but I can do a paste similar to the video , I will try cooking miso whit salt , Ithink if the japanese blacksmith paint the blade whit miso paste , they try to absorb the change of temperature ( 800 c a 60 c to prevent distortion in the blade ), Ithink in the video they dont use charcoal (if the use the paste will be black as the cly used in the katana sharp ) I try again cooking the miso whit salt and I will tell you the results


thank a lot al the helps is welcome

thanks a lot javier

I agree, the colour of the paste would be much darker if charcoal was part of the mix. It would be interesting to know what the paste is made of.

Steve

[correntinos]

hi , it s very interesting but a lot of peoples of other forum , said never heard about the miso for hardering blade , if I have new information I tell you

bon chance

javier from argentina

[correntinos]

hi thanks for the answers if I have some new information I will tell you

bom chanse

javier from argentina

[Pam]

thaks neils for the reply I m studing the posibility or forge some laminated tools , thanks a los

javier from argentina

I attended a 3-day seminar taught by Yataiki. I learned several things about laminating, among them:

1. You need a good flux for binding the metals. Yataiki used miso.

2. You need to be careful about the ratio of hard to soft metals. Too much hard and it wraps around the soft. Too little and it doesn't cover the base. Might be a good idea to start examining blades online, looking at the join line, at how the hard steel is or is not extended up the side bevels, gaining an appreciation for the expert work.

3. The Japanese forge, called a fuigo, is ingenious. You can see how to build one at Box Bellows (http://www.twinoaksforge.com/BLADSMITHING/BOX%20BELLOWS.HTM)

4. You need a helper, either a real person/slave or an automated hammer

5. It's a lot of work

You can get the steels you need without too much trouble. Also, keep in mind that in the old days western blades were laminated.

Pam

[yojimbo]

I haven't been there lately, but this site was always informative for me:
Home Page (http://www.thejapanblade.com/)

[correntinos]

hi people , someone can tell me what is the "paint" using in the japanese tools for the black colour???

thanks a lot
javier from the other side of the world

[Sheets]

hi people , someone can tell me what is the "paint" using in the japanese tools for the black colour???

thanks a lot
javier from the other side of the world

Hello again Javier,

Almost always, on Japanese tools, when there is a black colour to the metal, it is the result of the heat from the forging/hardening process forming iron oxide on the surface. When you see shiny steel, it is because the oxide has been ground or polished off (or the metal was protected from the (oxygen) air so the oxide won't form - one of the purposes of the clay [or miso] coating).

Pics thanks to Japan-Tool Japan Tool (http://www.japan-tool.com)

[Sheets]

I had emaied So-san with the question about miso. To his knowledge miso is not part of the mixture for yaki-ire (hardening).

It must obviously work as a flux however, as Pam has relayed.

[NeilS]

Hello again Javier,

Almost always, on Japanese tools, when there is a black colour to the metal, it is the result of the heat from the forging/hardening process forming iron oxide on the surface. When you see shiny steel, it is because the oxide has been ground or polished off (or the metal was protected from the (oxygen) air so the oxide won't form - one of the purposes of the clay [or miso] coating).



Yes, and the black oxide formation is aided by quenching in oil. Valued not only for its appearance but black oxide is more resistant to rusting than the polished metal surface areas.

.....

[yojimbo]

Neil -- got advice for what to do when the oxide gets worn/scuffed off? I just oil it (generally choji) -- is there a better method?
Thanks,
Becky

[NeilS]

Yes, Becky, that's all I do. Keep them oiled (camellia or clove or just plain pharmaceutical mineral oil). Over time they develop a grey patina which I associate with old, well maintained, tools.

.....

[Gadge]

If you want to get the black look back and do not want to heat the blade (heaven forbid), you can use cold gun blue. I use it to touch up my tools and it looks great. Available at a gun shop near you.

Gadge

[yojimbo]

Thanks, Neil and Gadge. Good advice. Much appreciated.

[correntinos]

thaks a lot for your answer

[Pam]

I had emaied So-san with the question about miso. To his knowledge miso is not part of the mixture for yaki-ire (hardening).

It must obviously work as a flux however, as Pam has relayed.

A real expert, Dave Burnard, has corrected my faulty memory. The miso was used by Yataiki for hardening.

Pam