Source for Metal Scrapers [Archive]

.RC.

16th March 2010, 09:26 AM

The only supplier in Oz is Sandvik Coromant.. Part number for the handpiece which comes with one indexable carbide insert is 620-25 H10

The inserts are 620-2525

Costs would approx be about $50 per insert and maybe $80-100 for the handpiece with insert...

I get get some pictures of mine shortly..

.RC.

16th March 2010, 09:39 AM

Some pictures.. This is for cast iron scraping for machine tool alignment.. Of course to go with this you need a surface plate and some marking medium and a way to sharpen the carbide, which means a diamond lap..

bollie7

16th March 2010, 10:21 AM

Why not make one.
One way to get a carbide scraper is to braze a big carbide insert onto a bit of flatbar. put a handle on the end. Getting a large insert might be a problem but if there is a heavy machine shop nearby you might be able to pick up a used one cheap.
I have one I made back in the early 1980's. Its actually an Eclipse high carbon scraper that I brazed a 25mm squre insert onto the end of. At the time I was working in the power gen industry and we were doing a major rehab on one of the turbines. Doing a lot of scraping to get scale of the turbine case joints and also a lot of pipe flanges as well. Not exactly high precision scraping but a lot of it. The std high carbon scraper needed resharpening several times a day. I managed to get the boss of the machine shop on a good day and talked him into giving me the big insert. I still use the scraper on occasions, Have only had to sharpen it about 5 times in the last 20 years. One thing to watch with a carbide scraper is it can be very easy to take off too much or score the surface. Probably not an issue if you haven't done much scraping before using a high carbon scraper.
You could even make one using an old file, wouldn't stay as sharp as a carbide for as long but could still scrape steel with it. Or weld a bit of HSS to your flat bar.
I wouldn't be paying $130 for one.
Thinking about it I just realised I haven't really done much precision scraping of flat surfaces, but I've done quite a lot of white metal bearings years ago using bearing blue and lead wire. I'd have to have a practise for a while now though LOL.

bollie7

SlotBaker

16th March 2010, 11:08 AM

Yeah, making one is easy. I made mine as an apprentice in the 60's from an old 10" (I think) flat file smoothed and tapered thinner to the end, and silver soldered a 1/4" x 3/32" x 1" long carbide tip to the end.

I ground and lapped the end to a slight curve, and it never seems to need sharpening.

Getting the carbide tip these days could be the problem.
:(

Maybe just buy the tip from Sandvik, and s/solder to an old file?
:)

bollie7

16th March 2010, 12:43 PM

Getting the carbide tip these days could be the problem.

Might almost be worth buying a cheap chinese router cutter or even a solid end mill to get the carbide. Unless you are really going to do a lot of scraping, carbide probably isn't worth the effort anyway. Bit of HSS parting blade weld to flatbar would be ok. or as you say, even an old file. I even have scrapers made from old, all hard, power hacksaw blades.

bollie7

pipeclay

16th March 2010, 01:30 PM

If its any use to you I have some carbide pieces 1" long 5/8" wide .100" thick.

steran50

16th March 2010, 09:24 PM

HI,
Only one source for Scapers in OZ ?, unless I found the Wrong type try these OZ Suppliers: Engineer's Scraper | Blackwoods (http://www2.blackwoods.com.au/infoBANKProduct.aspx?SG=2000165&S=4084731&G=2004807&P=2028043) and http://wic043u.server-secure.com/vs4487_secure/find.asp?q=scraper . I am sure if you ask around Engineering Suppliers there will be other Brands available. Or even try Googling 'engineers scraper' or bearing scraper' and You might find other sources. As the others have said You can make your own Scraper ie from old Files. I have seen something about the latter in a past issue of 'Model Engineers Workshop Magazine'.
All The Best:) steran50 Stewart

The shortest way to do many things is to do only one thing at once.

eskimo

17th March 2010, 08:15 AM

Thanks guys

Greg Q

17th March 2010, 03:02 PM

Eskimo, PM me your address. If you decide to go the homemade route I'll post you a 1" square piece of carbide which you can silver solder onto a file shaped piece of mild steel. (Or you can grind the teeth off an old file. Personally I don't like using files as they can break.

I would never use a sharpened file for scraping as it would only last a minute or so between sharpenings. A carbide tip will last an hour or so. You can get cheap 5 or 6" diamond wheels from Chinese ebay sellers that do a good job. Use a short block of wood for a grinding rest. Crosscut it at a 5 degree angle and sharpen the scraper on each side so that you get two working surfaces.

You will also need a lapping wheel, perhaps made from a dumbbell weight machined smooth. You can charge this with diamond lapping paste to hone the carbide. This is a necessary step. (again chinese ebay for cheap).

I have both the Sandvik and homemade versions. They both work as long as you take a couple of minutes to ensure the edges are sharp and nick free.

Greg

eskimo

19th March 2010, 02:11 PM

Thanks Greg, but Blackwoods had what I wanted.....

Greg Q

19th March 2010, 02:17 PM

Good then. Did they have a carbide tipped scraper or were they all HSS?

Greg

eskimo

19th March 2010, 05:43 PM

mmm didnt check...gee i am wally sometimes
will go down to the shed and check...err what do I look for...they are the eclipes ones?

make that most times ...sometimes

rsser

19th March 2010, 06:22 PM

Just stumbled across this thread, as I'm interested in carbide tip scraping of handplane soles.

The price for the Sandvik Coromant plus spare bit from the local Totaltools is $180 :oo:

Greg, if your offer is a bit is still open it would be very welcome.

Greg Q

19th March 2010, 06:28 PM

I got some carbide to make good on a promise of same to two other guys. I it on a private deal with another member on Practicalmachinst.com (I think I paid a buck each for 10).

So here's the deal: First five get a piece gratis, but the shipping might not be tomorrow. Send address details to my PM or email.

If anyone has a suitable steel blank I'll even braze it on and sharpen/hone it, but you'll have to cover postage both ways.

Greg

Greg Q

19th March 2010, 06:39 PM

mmm didnt check...gee i am wally sometimes
will go down to the shed and check...err what do I look for...they are the eclipes ones?

make that most times ...sometimes

I checked the link to the Blackwoods items and they were listed as steel. If carbide there would be an obvious join line at the tip.

I can't stress highly enough that a scraping tool is 1/4 of the necessary kit: you need a diamond wheel (not a green silicon carbide). You also have to have some method of honing/lapping with diamond paste. Any metal wheel 6" or so diameter mounted to a motor will do.

A reliable flat surface (which to me means a granite surface plate) is your shop supply of "flat" which you then transfer to your work. It will need to be as large as your intended work pieces. You'll need some bearing blue or other spotting medium for marking, and plenty of shop rags.

All of the above is for getting flat surfaces. Scraping for alignment (machine tool rebuilding) requires a load of additional metrology tools and straightedges. It is a rewarding skill set to acquire, but the journey is long, grasshopper:wink:

rsser

19th March 2010, 06:40 PM

Email sent.

That's a very generous offer Greg.

Greg Q

19th March 2010, 06:56 PM

Seeing as how the local price is $180 for a tool containing almost $3.00 worth of metal it is my pleasure. What a rip-off.

For future readers: You can find carbide scrapers from time to time on US ebay. Look for Anderson as well as Sandvik. The homemade ones are just as good, frankly. The more of this you do the more you'll want to add to your collection with special sizes and radii for dovetail and very fine work.

I'd take photos but my collection is on loan right now.

Greg

Dave J

19th March 2010, 07:04 PM

Dave J

19th March 2010, 07:20 PM

.RC.

19th March 2010, 08:32 PM

The more of this you do the more you'll want to add to your collection with special sizes and radii for dovetail and very fine work.

I'd take photos but my collection is on loan right now.

Greg

The more you do, the more you will want a Biax :)

Greg Q

20th March 2010, 07:32 PM

The more you do, the more you will want a Biax :)

Shhhhhhh! You'll scare the horses!:wink::D:2tsup:

RC is right: The Biax power scraper takes the grunt work out of it. That's assuming you get a tool balancer, otherwise the 5 kg Biax starts to weigh a bit.

RC...jog my memory here: you already have all the carbide scrapers you need?

Greg

Greg Q

20th March 2010, 07:43 PM

Greg,
Will be interested to see your collection of shapes when it returns. I am now on the hunt for the Connelly's book on machine tool reconditioning, any others you know about or recommend?
Eskimo,
Is it the HM52 you scraping or something else?
Dave

On books, Connelly is the acknowledged expert. There is also "Inspection of Machine Tools" by Schlessinger, but that's more a treatise on standards of accuracy without any maintenance information. Scraping videos from Michael Morgan, Rich King will give you more accessible information than Connelly regarding technique.

The various and many posts by Forrest Addy on practicalmachinist.com and homeshopmachinist are a valuable source of information.

The machines I am currently working* on are a Hembrug DR-1 lathe from 1965, an Arboga copy gear head drill and soon a 1967 Deckel FP-1 will get added to the list.

On the mechanical side there are more books regarding industrial maintenance, and the bearing folks (notably SKF) have websites full of guidance. Gates does likewise for power transmission belts, Nook for acme screw replacement, etc. I think there are plenty of people in the Grizzly/HF/generic asian machine forums who have been down these paths who can lend guidance too.

*working= six months after moving I am finally getting my shop organised enough to see these machines, so "work" seems like a pretty grand word for it.

I sure do wish I could find some of that magical machine rebuilding paint that you see on ebay and at some used machine dealers. Overhaul in a can!

.RC.

20th March 2010, 09:07 PM

RC...jog my memory here: you already have all the carbide scrapers you need?

Greg

Yes I have enough for the time being...

Dave J

20th March 2010, 09:24 PM

Thanks for the reply and info,:2tsup:
I will look out for those books and DVDs.
I have read most of what's on the net from Forrest Addy and others on CNC zone, HM, HSM,etc.
If he had a class over here I'd sign up, but I am not going to the US for it.
I would be interested in seeing parts of you rebuilds when you get around to it.
The reason I am wanting to learn scraping is to do an older mill up. It would give me more pleasure doing it myself than buying something Chinese again, and at least I will know that it's strait,square and accurate. As we all know, you would have to be really lucky to get a quality mill in good condition these days,unless you paid a fortune for it' which is something I don't have.
I think those spray cans are great, the new one to the range they have out now is, precision machine in a can and it's made in china.
Dave

Greg Q

20th March 2010, 11:34 PM

Yeah, I subscribe to the "buy used quality" school of thought. Hard work restoring those things though. The very best machine tools always saw a lot of work just because they were so good; as a result they often show the most wear.

Re Chinese: I try to avoid it as much as is possible these days. (Wait! I'm typing on one now!) Last month I saw, and bid on for a while, a Chinese made Deckel FP-2 copy. It looked really nice, probably from the 80's. Oddly, it had a cast trademark, and a proud plaque from the "Beijing Instrument Machine Tool Company". That's the first time I have ever seen such a trade mark on a Chinese made machine. I bet it wasn't much cheaper than a Deckel when new.

Greg

.RC.

20th March 2010, 11:52 PM

It would give me more pleasure doing it myself than buying something Chinese again, and at least I will know that it's strait,square and accurate.

I have found most Chinese machine are fairly straight and square, at least within reason..However making things straight and square in this day and age of CNC grinders and such is very easy...

Where the chinese stuff does skimp on is things like hardened gears and bearings...An example is my turret mill....A nice machine, quite accurate. However it does not even have precision class bearings in the spindle.. I was at my suppliers shop the other day picking up some inserts where I noticed a picture of a universal on his desk...It was from the same supplier as my mill.. I commented on how it looked nice..He said yes and it was surprisingly cheap, in fact cheaper then most turret mills... I knew then why it would be cheap and why I would not touch it with a 40 foot pole.. Even in China you cannot build quality on the cheap..

If you want quality, you have to get out the cheque book and be prepared to pay for it..

But the other side of the coin is...For a home workshop where you are not going to work the the machine all day every day, the average chinese machine is probably a good buy....

Dave J

21st March 2010, 01:06 AM

RC,
What model mill did you buy?
Dave

.RC.

21st March 2010, 06:58 AM

It is a Bridgeport type clone from Complete Machine Tools out of Brisbane...Comparable to the generic H&F stuff... It is an OK machine, it was something like $6000 6 years ago.... It isn't a $20 000 genuine bridgeport and I can't expect it to be..

This mill here would go well with it I thought Horizontal Mill, Heckert, Serial No. 326636-200, VEM Control, Magnescale LH (http://www.graysonline.com/Lot.aspx?id=4666848)

eskimo

21st March 2010, 10:17 AM

Dave...me scrape the HM52...not in that league just yet.....I'm still an apprentice you know....
so why the scrapers...well i have on the way connelly's book and I do intend to learn the lost art of scraping (also on its way) on some scrap first so that I can rebuild one day, I hope a better machine such as a real bridgport or the like...if i can find somewhere to hide it in the shed so you know who doesnt spot it.....

eskimo

26th March 2010, 09:50 PM

Dave
your info on the spindle about the precision bearings

as i have said elsewhere, I replaced the bearings with standard NTN bearings and all was very much quieter......HOWEVER

I am having trouble with a noise which comes into play when I tighten the quill lock ( i think thats what its called)...the locking bit at the front to lock the spindle from going up n down

I have replaced the bearings again since but it ..the noise... is still there

NOTE I am amazed at the difference in quality of finish when the quill is not locked...it is so much better....but the noise when locked or retracted under pressure is very audible...read LOUD...sounds like a crook bearing when the quill is locked.....and is somewhat concerning.

I am wondering if the top (standard NTN) bearing of the spindle is just a tad to tight meaning it might need a sloppier (eg C3/4/5) bearing and they are only a deep grove ball bearing, as i am now thinking the male part of the spline is hitting/knocking inside the male part in the top pulley arrangement when the spindle is locked or fully retracted (retraction under pressure)........or or or have I bent the shaft somehow.????...not having a lathe ( its still in the box so that u know who doesnt know I have it) to initially check the shaft i will put the old chinese bearing back in and see what happens..if its still noisy i will take the shaft to the mob I use for machining to check

Dave J

26th March 2010, 10:36 PM

Hi,
Just checked mine and there is no difference in noise with it locked or unlocked.

If you want to check the splined shaft to see if it's bent you could take the whole quill back out, put it on the mill table and set up the dial indicator on it while you turn it by hand.
Have you replaced the 2 top bearings under the pulley? the pulley is a tapered fit on the shaft after undoing the nut, then there are 4 bolts and the whole bearing retainer comes out. Some machines are a slight press fit so it might need a tap with a block of wood from the bottom with the quill out.
It sounds to me like the spindle is not lined up with the top bearing retainer, maybe try rotating the bearing retainer when reinstalling it. I would think if it was bent it would make a noise all the time.
Dave

eskimo

27th March 2010, 10:08 AM

I did also replace the top bearings as well for the pulley

why didnt they make the quill and spindle with two (2) tapered roller bearings top and bottom, or at least use a sealed double row angular contact ball bearing at the top in lieu of the single ball bearing.

Wonder if one could adapt a single row angular contact bearing; they dont make these with seals so would need to fit a seal of some sort to keep it clean...

something must be amiss inside....noise is prevalent when
1. locking the spindle with Vertical Travel lock handle ...the harder you lock it the louder it gets,
2.Sticking a screwdriver in thru the spindle lock adjustment hole and levering the quill back makes the noise...same as above..ie the harder you do it the louder it becomes
3.Raising the quill and pushing back up on the quill feed handle also makes the noise and ditto the loud bit also.

while locking the quill the noise is/becomes louder when the quill is at or near its fully retracted or fully extended positions. Approx half way it, the noise, is still there but much less audible.

Just been looking at the SKF web site and although I had noted in the past that they dont have sealed angular contact bearings in standard stuff I looked a bit further and noted they do have single row sealed ones of the size required in the high precision stuff.....

with a tapered roller at the bottom (as it comes) and one of these at the top, should take care of any thrust problems.......wonder what they cost ...i'll find out Monday...and its probably a 6 week wait