A revelation...

[Denim]

Yesterday I had a revelation.

I have been practicing my sawing (with western saws) for a year or so now and have been getting quite good. Not perfectly accurate but confident enough to make a cut that was on the mark 80% of the time and fairly square. Although, I couldn't believe it was taking this long to work it out. I'm a very quick learner and spending about 1 day a week pottering around in the shed should have given me a good hold on it early on.

I had been talking to my wife about trying a Japanese pull saw for the past 6 months but didn't do anything about it. Anyway, it was my birthday on Thursday and low and behold, a Dozuki saw was one of my presents.

I finally got out to the garage last night and gave the saw ago. It took me a couple of cuts to get used to the action but wow, what a difference. It was so easy to make a clean, accurate cut, despite being a cheapie from Bunnings. I cursed myself for procrastinating for so long about getting one.

This is one happy convert! :D

[Sheets]

Glad to hear it. Stick around here - we'll be happy to pull you along.

Steve

[derekcohen]

I am curious to know what type of Western saw you have been using. Some are godawful and should not be used at all. I just wonder if you have had an apples versus apples experience? I used both types but mostly Western saws because they cope better with hardwoods.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Denim]

I'm sure you're right Derek. I'm probably not comparing apples with apples.

I have been using a Jackson tenon saw and an old cross cut saw I inherited from my Grandfather stamped Warranted Superior, which to my understanding would be a generic brand?

Although I've not used a high quality Western saw I seem to feel in control and more comfortable with the back saw. I'm sure it's probably either technique or quality of the saws that's my problem with the Western saws. I'll still be persevering until I can afford a decent one or maybe get the ones I have reconditioned.

I'm certainly open to suggestions if you have any.

[derekcohen]

Hi Denin

On the positive side, your experience demonstrates what remarkable value-for-money Japanese saws can be! On the down side, they are not really suited for Australian hardwoods - I have broken many teeth in my time in spite of careful sawing. There are Japanese blades out that are intended for hardwoods, but these are not sold by Bunnings.

Bunnings only cater for the lower end of the spectrum. The Western saws you get from them are Cheap-and-Nasty. They cannot be compared with a cheap Japanese saw. The teeth are generally impulse sharpened and the set far, far too great. They will be difficult to hold to a line and produce rough results.

Definitely not Apples and Apples.

A good Western saw is a pleasure to use. For a cheapish high quality one, look at the Veritas (Lee Valley) saws.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Denim]

Not sure if I made it clear but both the saws I have been using are period saws, not off the shelf at Bunnings. I'll be sure to look into Veritas when I have the opportunity. In the meantime I'll be sure to take my care with Australian hardwoods.

Thanks very much for your input Derek.

[tea lady]

I love my Japanese pull saw too. :cool: I started out with a cheapy from Bunnings and I really liked it. It just seems to cut easier. I also recently got a nice one from Carbatec. (Can't remember which one off the top of my head. A dovetail saw anyway.) They are the bees knees for cutting pine. The little furniture group I am part of at the club only used pine for the first few projects, and everyone elses end grain is torn to b*^&%^&. Mine is beautiful. I know that are not very suited to hard woods. so might get another one that is when I get to it. :cool: Right now I'm not using woods that are a problem. :)

I have used Groggies really expensive western saw. It was amazing, but there is no way my budget will ever stretch to one of those.:rolleyes:

[yojimbo]

I started with Japanese saws, and soon switched to Japanese tools for most of my work.
Careful, Denim -- they're addictive!
And welcome to the J-tools Anonymous meeting! There are wonders out there waiting for you. :)

[NeilS]

I started with Japanese saws, and soon switched to Japanese tools for most of my work.
Careful, Denim -- they're addictive!
And welcome to the J-tools Anonymous meeting! There are wonders out there waiting for you. :)

Yes, Denim, welcome to the forum.

As Yojimbo has said, there is another whole world of woodworking awaiting you should you travel down similar paths to the members of this forum.... it can begin with a successful experience with just one Japanese tool...:U

My experience with Japanese saws has been mixed. Both my best and worst softwood saws are Japanese pull saws. My best one (a Tadayuki Mitsukawa ryoba nokogiri) is my go to saw for that type of work... it sings! My worst saw (by a long way) is also a ryoba nokogiri that I swear at whenever I inadvertently use it my mistake...:~. Just mentioned this to point out that not all Japanese woodworking tools are automatically good quality.

I'm also quite fond of my old Robert Sorby Kangaroo Works backsaw for hardwoods.

.....

[tea lady]

I'm also quite fond of my old Robert Sorby Kangaroo Works backsaw for hardwoods.

.....So what exactly is one of these? What I like about japanese saws is the narrow kerf and the way the teeth are not wider that the body of the saw. Is the above mentioned "backsaw" also used on the pull stroke? :hmm: Or does "back saw" just mean it has a strengthened back? :shrug:

[NeilS]

So what exactly is one of these? What I like about japanese saws is the narrow kerf and the way the teeth are not wider that the body of the saw. Is the above mentioned "backsaw" also used on the pull stroke? :hmm: Or does "back saw" just mean it has a strengthened back? :shrug:

Yes, TL, the 'back' refers to the metal strip on the top (back) of the blade to keep it rigid. Backsaws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backsaw) are both pushed and pulled. The Japanese version is the dozuki.

The Sorby is a western style push saw made in Sheffield. You will be familiar with their turning tools, for which they are best known. The blade is thicker than the equivalent Japanese sized (ie tooth size) saw because it is pushed. And, yes, a pulled saw can be made thinner and has a narrower kerf. But the tooth profile on most Japanese saws do not cope so well with our hardwoods. So, if you work with both soft and hardwoods it's good to have both.

There is minimal tooth set on rip saws, but nearly all crosscut saws have some set on them. It's just less noticeable on the thinner pull saws.

.....

[Denim]

I started with Japanese saws, and soon switched to Japanese tools for most of my work.
Careful, Denim -- they're addictive!
And welcome to the J-tools Anonymous meeting! There are wonders out there waiting for you. :)

I have the perfect solution to that possible addiction - lack of funds. I'll make do with what I've got for now. Although I always interested in trying new tools so I'm sure I'll have the opportunity to try different Japanese tools as time goes on.

Neil, the saw I've got is only a Bunnings cheaping and when I get the opportunity to buy a new one I'll be sure to ask your advice. :)

Denim

[tea lady]

Neil, the saw I've got is only a Bunnings cheaping and when I get the opportunity to buy a new one I'll be sure to ask your advice. :)

DenimI like that bunnings cheapy too. But an actual japanese Doduki is a beautiful thing. :cool: Maybe for your next birthday? :D (They turn up on ebay occasionally. :secret: )

[TP1]

Happy Birthday

[Denim]

Happy Birthday

Thanks very much.

Tea Lady: I'm sure I'll get in before then. :U

[Alex.R]

Glad to hear it. Stick around here - we'll be happy to pull you along.

Steve

I hope there was no pun intended :p


I stared using a Japanese dazouki saw for dovetails and fine joinery and I'm hooked, I love it!

[rsser]

My Ryoba saw arrived this morning, x cut one side and rip t'other. X cut some pine with it and the finish was remarkable.

It was a 40 buck special from the US; click (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/japanesesilkyhibikiryobasaw.aspx)

[NeilS]

Good buy, Ern.

Enjoy!

.....

[rsser]

Thanks Neil; it's a gem.

Kicking myself I didn't get a spare blade at the same time; oh well.

And it's novel hanging the bench hook into the bench well to make the cuts!

Must say the config of the x cut teeth is fascinating.

[NeilS]

Must say the config of the x cut teeth is fascinating.



Yes, nothing like any Western style saw I know of, and they do take a bit of getting used to if you resharpen them yourself. Not that this type are meant to be resharpened, but had to get the special feather file for the ones that are meant to be resharpened and found that a light touch up on the impact hardened teeth will extend the useful life of the disposable blade for a while. Probably not worth the effort, but can get keep you going until you get a replacement blade, and nothing lost if you don't get it right.

.....

[rsser]

Thanks for that insight Neil.

A whole new realm of challenge ;-}