VSD Remote Control Panel Questions

[markjaffa]

About to wire up a remote panel for my new 3 phase VSD installed on a cloned AL-960B and I would like your opinions on which controls are necessary and which - if any - are a waste of space.

There will be a single momentary pushbutton for run/start.

There will be a stop limit switch on a foot operated brake, and a locking mushroom head stop pushbutton on the panel.

There will be a two position rotary or rocker switch to select forward or reverse.

There will also be a potentiometer for speed control - do you suggest a single turn or ten turn pot? Ten turn gives finer resolution - but is it overkill?

There are two inputs for jog controls - one forward and one reverse. I am leaning towards just the forward - is their any reason to have both - or neither?

Look forward to your input. :)

[Godzilla98]

(http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/53655-markjaffa/)
Hi there,

The control you have sugested are what I use and it works very well.

What breed have you got?

If you check your configurations on some of these units you can set the stop to be a dead stop - not just shutting off the power - it stop it very quickly, Good for a foot switch safe and can reduce machine damage.

I only have the forward step, and single turn pots. Seems adequate for my needs but you will find it very good to work with.

I stuck my contols in an electical box from the electrical wholesalers - only a few bucks but made it easy to set up with plenty of room between controls.

Cheers

Ian

[Dave J]

There are are couple of blokes that have done the same thing in the link below.
Grizzly G9003G conversion to Var. Spd. - The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop BBS (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=39920)
Dave

[eskimo]

I am about to put a VSD on the mill

I will be using a 0-10v input to control motor speed...

I thought of using a 3 wire linear potentiometer but couldnt find anything that was gooing to look professional when fitted to a new control box and also matched the size of the coolant pump switch and new FOR-OFF-REV panel switch,

decided to go with a off the shelf panel mount SGF24 0-100% as per the that shown at this link

http://www.belimo.com.cn/pdf/SGA%28F.E.R%2924.pdf

[markjaffa]

Godzilla98 - VSDs are PowTran - I imported them fom the manufacturer in China after seeing their products at an Industrial Automation Trade Show in Shanghai. Great features, good English manual, good price - plus they are one of the top 5 manufacturers of VSDs in China, which makes them pretty big! I have set the stop to be a dead stop after reading through the manual - initial setting was a 10 second power down! Not what you want for a lathe.

Dave J - Thanks for the link. It makes interesting reading. I would question the wiring diagram shown on page 2 though. Not having a TECO manual in front of me, I doubt that power should be shut off to the VSD each time you want to stop. I know the manual for mine cautions against turning the power off to the unit, without powering the VSD down first. The wiring side of things isnt the issue - being an A grade electrician - I was more interested in what controls people use/require - from the link you provided I assume that a reverse jog/inch button would be a waste of time. I have also decided on a single turn pot for speed control - a ten turn would probably be overkill.

Eskimo - That panel mount pot looks nice, but I dont think it would suit my VSD. It specifies that a 1k ohm, 2 watt potentionmeter be used - with 10vDC going into the pot and the output being 0-10vDC. Doesnt seem to match your pots specs. I have found some good pots with the right specs already. Also just found some cheap sealed(splashproof) push buttons for the other controls.

Thanks for the replies. Any more ideas anyone?

[RayG]

Hi Mark,

Don't know if its possible with your enclosure layout, but It's convenient if you can see the drive Hz or RPM while adjusting the pot. With a remote stop/start control panel it might be a bit trickier..

Regards
Ray

[eskimo]

markjaffa (http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/53655-markjaffa/)
The way I understand it is....you can use a 3wire potentiometer or inject a 0-10v input into the VSD

[eskimo]

The wiring diag from PowTran i just downloaded shows either or

The attachment below shows how its done on a hitachi drive ...you will just need to change the terminals name to suit your drive

[markjaffa]

RayG - I plan to mount the VSD behind/under a perspex shield, above the lathe gearbox. This will enable me to see the Hz as I adjust the pot, whilst protecting the VSD from coolant/swarf.

eskimo - You are bang on. The speed of the motor can be varied by inputing an analog voltage, an analog current, or a 3 wire potentiometer.
I have found some Bourns pots for around $6.50 each, plus $7.00 for freight for any number of pots. Add on a large knob from RS for around $10, and its done. How does that compare to the Belimo SGF24?

Thanks for all the replies. Look forward to your pricing eskimo.

[eskimo]

I got it for the right price....redundant stock at work and boss (thats me) said take it
but to answer your question...they cost a tad tad more than what your planning to use....but will yours look as good :U

[RayG]

Thanks for the replies. Any more ideas anyone?

Ok, here is a slightly different approach, what you are doing is adjusting the spindle speed, so, why not sense the spindle speed directly and display that on the remote control panel, you can get little panel mounted tacho's that would do nicely. Takes the gearbox out of the calculation of spindle speed.

Regards
Ray

Edit: Here's one that does the surface fpm calculations for you as well... http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mini-Lathe-Mill-7x10-7x12-Sieg-C2-C3-RPM-tachometer_W0QQitemZ220581704876QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item335bb1b4ac

[eskimo]

most of the better err more pricey vsd's have speed display in built...you just need to get the display in a good position away from swarf and coolant without taking up too much room with the bulky vsd....some even come with removable display panels for this purpose

i am trying to source a 1.5metre ribbon cable with correct idc plugs long enough to do this with mine

[RayG]

Hi Eskimo,

Yes, the VFD can display the output frequency scaled in rpm to give you the motor rpm, usually it's a menu selectable option, just enter the motor rpm.

What I am suggesting is something quite different, the tacho reads the lathe spindle speed directly, using a photocell or prox, and displays the actual spindle speed, that way the effect of changing gears is automatically taken out of the equation.

Hope that's clearer.

Regards
Ray

Although, on reflection, when the VFD is installed the number of gear changes should diminish, just select the highest gear and only change down if extra torque is required. Then you could enter a suitably scaled dummy "rated motor rpm" into the VFD to correct for the selected gearbox ratio. That way the VFD could display actual rpm, at least until some job required extra torque and you needed to change gears.

[Dave J]

I think I will be calling on your expertise when I buy and fit mine Ray. Like I said a few weeks ago electronics is not my strongest point. I learn easy but some pointers never go astray.
Dave

[eskimo]

Ray
but as you say..ok till you need to get some extra speed, so why not this way.....

the motor that comes on the HM52 for instance is a 1400 rpm 4 pole motor rated at 1.5kw and weighs in around 25kg (cast iron frame). To change this motor over so that a VSD can be fitted while retaining same torque and with out needing belt changes to adjust speed would require a 2 pole (nominal 2800 rpm) 3kw motor and running a speed ratio of 1-1 (same pulley sizes on both motor and quill), we can get our nominal 2800 rpm at the spindle...do we have a problem with weight you may ask?...not if we fit a alloy framed motor....weight 24kg ...this way one wont need to scale anything except programme the VSD correctly

While reviewing the PowTran site I couldnt help notice on how much their VSD that comes up on their opening page is (apart from the larger display) the same size shape colour etc etc etc etc etc and even having the little recess bit just above the display, as those HUANYANG VSD'S that most seem to be getting (as did I) off ebay from Sonic or the like. Can any one throw some extra light on this?

I also contacted Sonic last night and yes they do have ext ribbons so that display panel can be removed (it just clicks into the front cover of VSD) and remotely located so that VSD can be safely mounted away from coolant, oils and swarf etc etc. These VSD's can also come with that speed control on the front panel negating the need for what Markjaffa and I were discussing above...wish I had knew that when I ordered my vsd.

[RayG]

Hi Eskimo,

I like your idea of increasing the motor to 3kw, that should further minimize gear (belt) changes. Although, running at the lower speeds on the HM52 might still require a gear/belt change to get enough torque.

I got a Teco FM50 1.5kw 240v drive, (single phase in, 3 phase out) which has the speed control pot and fwd/rev switch on the front panel, but I'm also controlling the spindle speed remotely with a +-10v signal from the CNC.

Looking at the pictures of the various drives, I suspect there is a bit of badge engineering going on..:)

Regards
Ray

[eskimo]

Ray
the 3kw 2 pole puts out around 9.8 Nm while the 1.5kw 4 pole puts out 10 .....so says the manufacturers product data

And I am hoping this will match the 1.5kw lower speeds using a vector drive....or have I had too much too drink?...

I could always change the drive pulley to a smaller one if need be, to keep maximum speed at the spindle to say 2400 rpm at 60hz (most good brand motors although rated at 50hz will easily accept 60hz with out damage) thereby giving me some extra torque at the lower end as well...but then I'd need to scale the drive so the rpm is correct...one way or another i'm going to have a rpm indication somehow even if its means sticking on a tacho

Incidently, these motors have a B5 mounting flange and all I have had/and to do is make a new plate for the motor to sit on (almost finished), remove the lip on the motor flange (done), extend the motor shaft a little (done),source and fit a taperlock motor pulley (on order as is belt) and then wire it all up and test

I also have on hand a small 3phase backward curve centrifugal blower to sit atop the motor to aid in heat dissipation at the lower speeds...if need be...and it probably will

[Billy Bignutz]

[QUOTE=markjaffa;1136258]Godzilla98 - VSDs are PowTran - I imported them fom the manufacturer in China after seeing their products at an Industrial Automation Trade Show in Shanghai. Great features, good English manual, good price - plus they are one of the top 5 manufacturers of VSDs in China, which makes them pretty big! I have set the stop to be a dead stop after reading through the manual - initial setting was a 10 second power down! Not what you want for a lathe.

Hi Marjaffa
I was interested in some more info on the PowTran VSDs you bought from China - do you have a contact with manufacturer or some info you can PM me on these including indicative price and freight etc.

If anyone else has info on local or foreign sourced VSDs I would be interested. I need single phase in 3 phase out.

Thanks

Bill

[RayG]

If anyone else has info on local or foreign sourced VSDs I would be interested. I need single phase in 3 phase out.

Thanks

BillHi Bill,

The one I got is the TECO FM50, already mentioned earlier in this thread. The one I'm setting up is 1.5kw (2hp) but they go up to 3hp... above that kw rating you need 415 3ph.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/FM50_nema4.gif

It has the pot for speed control on the front panel, and fwd/rev switch, and on/off switch.

You can get more details here.
TECO-Westinghouse Motor Company: Products - FM50 Micro AC Drive (http://www.tecowestinghouse.com/PRODUCTS/Drives/fm50.html)

Since it's 240V 3 phase out, make sure your 3phase motor can be wired for 240v, for mine it's a teco motor, so it's wound to run on 240v 3 phase (when wired in delta configuration)... above 5.5kw they look to be wound for 415v delta as standard... so check the motor specs carefully..

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/MotorWiring.jpg

Regards
Ray

[markjaffa]

PM sent

[Billy Bignutz]

Thanks Ray
I am across the delta vs star wiring matter as I already run a crude 3 phase 240V rotary converter. Actually I have found that some 3 phase 415volt motors run well enough for home handyman use on 3 phase 240 even on Y strapping. Found this out due to some machines having 2 speed switch where one is in effect Y and the other is delta.
Bill

[RayG]

Ray
the 3kw 2 pole puts out around 9.8 Nm while the 1.5kw 4 pole puts out 10 .....so says the manufacturers product data

And I am hoping this will match the 1.5kw lower speeds using a vector drive....or have I had too much too drink?...

I could always change the drive pulley to a smaller one if need be, to keep maximum speed at the spindle to say 2400 rpm at 60hz (most good brand motors although rated at 50hz will easily accept 60hz with out damage) thereby giving me some extra torque at the lower end as well...but then I'd need to scale the drive so the rpm is correct...one way or another i'm going to have a rpm indication somehow even if its means sticking on a tacho

Incidently, these motors have a B5 mounting flange and all I have had/and to do is make a new plate for the motor to sit on (almost finished), remove the lip on the motor flange (done), extend the motor shaft a little (done),source and fit a taperlock motor pulley (on order as is belt) and then wire it all up and test

I also have on hand a small 3phase backward curve centrifugal blower to sit atop the motor to aid in heat dissipation at the lower speeds...if need be...and it probably will

Hi Eskimo,

The extra torque you have ( you have double the standard motor already, with that motor) should allow you to run over a pretty wide speed range without changing belts. Even then when it gets to the the lower speeds, like 220 rpm or so, you could always just take lighter cuts. :)

The belt change option is always there if you really need the extra torque.

Regards
Ray

[eskimo]

Hi Eskimo,

The extra torque you have ( you have double the standard motor already, with that motor) should allow you to run over a pretty wide speed range without changing belts. Even then when it gets to the the lower speeds, like 220 rpm or so, you could always just take lighter cuts. :)

The belt change option is always there if you really need the extra torque.

I think you will find I will only have the same torque.....the formula is
T = hp x 5252 / rpm or T = kw x 967 / rpm

yes lighter cuts will assist and as for belt change....
I was going to fit a single groove 160 dia drive pulley so that I have large surface contact area for the vee belt. Yesterday I decided to get the ext shaft modified so that I can fit a 2 groove pulley which will allow me to use the larger and 2nd largest dia grooves on the spindle pulley

the 3 stepped ally pulleys dont go up to 160dia ...I'd have to get one machined...my lathe is still sitting in the box as you know who doesnt know I have it...yet

[RayG]

I think you will find I will only have the same torque.....the formula is
T = hp x 5252 / rpm or T = kw x 967 / rpm

yes lighter cuts will assist and as for belt change....
I was going to fit a single groove 160 dia drive pulley so that I have large surface contact area for the vee belt. Yesterday I decided to get the ext shaft modified so that I can fit a 2 groove pulley which will allow me to use the larger and 2nd largest dia grooves on the spindle pulley

the 3 stepped ally pulleys dont go up to 160dia ...I'd have to get one machined...my lathe is still sitting in the box as you know who doesnt know I have it...yet

Hi Eskimo,

I reasoned as follows...
2 pole 3kw should be 2800 rpm, and the 4 pole 1.5kw 1400 rpm. In order to run the 4 pole motor at 2800, you need to gear it up x2, so the torque drops to 5 nm, with your 2 pole 3kw motor you have 10nm at that speed.

What actually happens at the lower speeds is going to depend on how well the drive torque control/ (torque boost) software works, leaving aside belt slippage etc.

Regards
Ray

[RayG]

...my lathe is still sitting in the box as you know who doesnt know I have it...yet

Outch.... how do you hide a lathe? Big box marked as spare machine parts?

Regards
Ray

[eskimo]

Outch.... how do you hide a lathe? Big box marked as spare machine parts?

how do I hide a lathe...same way I hide all my guns...never let her see em and never ever tell her I bought another one

(she bought the mill for my birthday...with my money but)

but its almost as you say ....it sits a big box and she thinks I have airconditioning bits n pieces in it....and it sits under the 2 x 12volt fridges with a stack of flexible ducting ontop of that....one day she is find out tho...and I'll be in big trouble...any know a good lawyer hahahaha

Its not a big lathe only 900 mm bed been there for 4 years...oooops just checked..its 6 yrs....hell time flies.....its out of date now so i must need a new one eh?...if I wait till my next birthday maybe I can convince her to buy me a lathe...just bigger and better than the one I am hiding

[markjaffa]

eskimos post got me looking closely at my Powtran 7660 inverter, and I found that the control panel clips out easily! :2tsup:

It has a pot on it for adjusting the speed, 8 other buttons, 6 LED indicator lights, and the screen.

Got in contact with Powtran today and they said I can install up to a 3m ten conductor ribbon cable with IDC plugs to remote mount the panel. If I used screened cable it can be extended up to 100m! :oo:

Plugs are $4 each and cable would cost about $12 from Farnell. Plus a small sealed enclosure for about $10 and you have a remote panel! :D

I have to do some more thinking before I commit to this course though. :?

[eskimo]

eskimos post got me looking closely at my Powtran 7660 inverter, and I found that the control panel clips out easily! :2tsup:

It has a pot on it for adjusting the speed, 8 other buttons, 6 LED indicator lights, and the screen.

Got in contact with Powtran today and they said I can install up to a 3m ten conductor ribbon cable with IDC plugs to remote mount the panel. If I used screened cable it can be extended up to 100m! :oo:

Plugs are $4 each and cable would cost about $12 from Farnell. Plus a small sealed enclosure for about $10 and you have a remote panel! :D

I have to do some more thinking before I commit to this course though. :?

my stuff so that I can mount the main box away from the controller and display is on its way....that 0-100% belimo went back into the redundant parts shelve as i am getting another panel with the speed adjustment...this will look even better

and as you say the panel does clip out easily....gunna take some thinking on how to mount it into another facia (front panel of control box)

[eskimo]

Mark
remote vsd display stuff arrived
the display panel came with a recessed fixing panel designed to clip into a front panel of say an alloy or plastic electrical enclosure...so all one needs to do it cut a square hole and push it in till it locks in place. ie....No other fixings required.