Makes you wonder

[Woodlee]

This is probably the wrong forum for this , but it is metal working related in that the tools I'm referring to are metal working tools.Mod feel free to relocate it if you think you should.

I just replied to a post regarding an angle plate .
Afterwards I got to thinking about the quality of service from different suppliers .
Most the overseas suppliers I deal with are most accomadating and will go out of thier way to being more than helpful.
For instance , I've had a $10:00US refund on excess postage just recently from one supplier .
another ,I just purchased a 3" R8 shanked boring head from the US ,it came with 12 boring bars and all the hex keys.
For $83.00US and $38.00 postage.

Now having a look at a well known Australian supplier ,
purchase the 3" boring head and bars , then purchase the shank separately
Boring head and bars $319.00AUD +post
Shank $71.00AUD .+ post

I purchased a 3" indexable milling cutter from the un-named supplier above and to my delight I discovered that the was no Torx key for tightening the tips into the cutter head ,I called them and they informed me that the key was another $12.00 + postage .
Their collet sets also look a bit diminished in the number of collets you get ,compared to what can be purchased on Ebay for a lot less from HongKong .
Most of the products if not all ,that the Australian supplier sells is made in the same factories over seas where the overseas suppliers get thier stuff from ,most likely the Australian supplier is buying in bulk and getting much lower prices from the manufacturer .
So I'm just wondering what's going on here , are we getting scalped ?
Kev

[wheelinround]

Sadly Kev yes and by our own

[Master Splinter]

I feel that a lot of Australian suppliers aren't really into the 'home' market - it's seen as too small a segment to worry about. They still see themselves as being in the business market and are more interested in sales that have three zeros on the end, not two, and long term business accounts rather than occasional retail sales.

Does anyone else remember when the Dunlop-Flexhide stores tried to turn into full retail outlets????? It was always fun looking around their stores - lots of useful/interesting stuff, but still with the mindset of "engineer/tradesman doesn't care about cost, as they just pass cost on to end customer who has no option but to accept it''. So you'd write down an SKU, go to the counter, ask counter staff (who you could tell really didn't want to be working on a weekend) the price, wait while they interrogated the mainframe database through a terminal and printed off a price listing, and then gasp in horror as it was ten times higher than you'd expect it to be! (I can remember doing just that; I'd priced some insertion rubber at Clark Rubber, thought it was a bit much, tried Dunlop - as it was their product originally - and yes, it was more expensive by a factor of ten).

[Dave J]

I agree Kev,
I shop for my tooling like you, if I didn't Id have 1/3 of what Ive got.
I amazes me how we can buy something from the US, then postage on top of that and still be cheaper than the seller you spoke about above.
Surely buying container loads of tools would make them cheaper than the US when imported direct to Australia.
I see the US companies target businesses and home shops with discount vouchers and free shipping, off there already good prices. We need companies over here like that, they would sell a heap more.
Dave

[.RC.]

They can charge like that as most people do not buy stuff in from overseas..

Also bare in mind that when you buy from overseas you do not pay GST, or duty fees, or quarantine fees... These can add a significant amount onto the cost of goods.. Also the overseas seller operates in a totally different labour market... They may only pay their employees $5 a day, allowing the goods to be sold much cheaper..

[Grahame Collins]

I try my best to shop local but when retailers have that mindset well bugger em, I will tool up through O/S suppliers.

Grahame

[bollie7]

As R.C has said. Don't forget that if you bring in something yourself, if the cost is less that $1000. then customs doesn't worry about import duty because it costs them more to collect it than what they get from it. (so I was told by customs a few years ago). If its more than $1000 you have to pay import duty at whatever rate is applicable for the goods. then you have to pay GST as well. Not just on the cost of the goods but on the total cost. thats the cost of the goods + the freight costs + the import duty.
But wait, thats not a tax on a tax, as import duty is not a tax. Or so I was told.
So if you bring in a container full, the taxs and "not taxes" (duties) could be quite considerable. Then you can add transport to the outlet, costs for unloading, storage, cost of having a warhouse, wages etc. By now the prices are really starting to climb, and at the end of the day everyone is in business to make a profit.
So in reality maybe the prices being asked are not that unreasonable.

bollie7

[eskimo]

are we getting scalped ?


yes I'd say we do
just look at OZ suppliers on ebay who import their stuff and also have to pay duties, freight etc etc just as the big boys do....based on that we do get ripped off more often than we think

as I said in an earlier post trusol coolant from caltex costs 117.00 as compared to the no-name brand is 165.00...the $$'s saved are better off in my pocket than someone else's ...shop around is the motto else risk getting ripped off more

[Big Shed]

Also bare in mind that when you buy from overseas you do not pay GST, or duty fees, or quarantine fees... These can add a significant amount onto the cost of goods.. Also the overseas seller operates in a totally different labour market... They may only pay their employees $5 a day, allowing the goods to be sold much cheaper..

That argument holds true if you buy on Ebay direct from China, but I buy a lot of my tooling from US suppliers. They have to deal with the same import charges to get it in to the US in the first place, freight , duty etc.

By the time they sell it to me, add postage etc, most of the time it costs me between 1/3 and 1/2 of what I would pay locally. On top of that the service in most cases is far superior to that I get from local suppliers, emails are answered promptly (locally you are lucky to get an answer at all, usually a few days later!)

Even between local suppliers selling the identical brand (ex UK) tools there can be as much as 20% difference in price, as I found on Friday quite by accident. Had been looking for a live centre set and discovered that a local supplier had one in stock, so could actually see it, and his price was almost 20% lower than another local supplier.

[markjaffa]

Having just imported a HM-52G mill, and about 800kg of other mill/lathe accessories, I can accurately comment on duty, freight, and GST.

There were over 100 accessories that appeared on my invoice, all of which had to be classified according to Customs tariff classification scheme.

This was done by a Customs Broker that was employed by the Freight Forwarder that I used to bring in my goods from Qingdao. I am glad that I paid them (AU$175+GST) to do the job - I would have classified the items differently. This fee is regardless of the shipment size. If I classified the items, some would have attracted Import Duty - they classified all items as Duty Free! Very happy with that! :2tsup:

Sea Freight was very cheap. It was charged at the actual cubic volume of the shipment to three decimal places - 4.491m cubed, at US$45 a cubic metre. Came to AU$219.57 - no GST. I have seen 20' containers being shipped from ports in China to OZ for US$300 - short notice shipping to fill up a vessel.

Unloading charges at Fremantle added much more to the cost than the freight. Cost twice as much to get it off the ship to a warehouse 2km away than it cost to get it from China to Australia. ?! :? These charges are charged at a rate of AU$110+GST per cubic metre. Came to AU$543.41 - inc GST. These charges are related to having a Less than a Container Load shipment - I believe this is where the Freight Forwarders make their money. A full container would still cost more dollars, but it would add less to each cubic metre.

Australian Quarantine charges were low - they accepted all the documents provided by my suppliers attesting to the treatment of the timber, and that the machinery was all new and had not been field tested/used. If these documents had not been in order, there would have been AQIS inspection and possibly treatment charges. But in my case the charges were AU$164 - no GST on this lot. There were two other charges as well - relating to Cargo Automation Fee and a Delivery Fee - came to AU$121 - inc GST. These charges are all on a per shipment basis - larger orders would attract the same costs.

Total invoice value from my suppliers was US$7660 - split between two suppliers at US$745 and US$6915. As one of these invoices is under AU$1000, no GST was charged. The other invoice was converted to AU$7513.47 - excluding GST. Freight was added to this value, and then 10% GST was applied. GST came out as AU$783.91 - obviously no GST is added to the GST!

So - totals. Invoice values of AU$8322.47. Total import/freight/Customs/Quarantine costs of AU$2024.40. This gives an import cost of less than 25% of the Invoice value. And this is for a small order - if you bring in a FCL (Full Container Load) it would be a lot cheaper per cubic metre/item.

So Import costs DON'T explain why we get ripped off by local suppliers :~- which is why I will continue to shop overseas. Don't be restricted by local pricing - look overseas for your goods. As we all know - they are made in the same factory anyway.

[TP1]

Australian owned distributors and retailers have a different mentality to those in the USA. For a start, there is actually less competition here and Aussie consumers are usually parochial and way more tolerant of their suppliers than in other countries. Just look at how people on this forum jump to the defence of suppliers when someone has a complaint.

Sadly, there is a cottage industry mentality by most Aussie suppliers in that they are not particularly concerned about significant growth, expansion or increasing market share. These are all objectives of companies who will be most likely to stock a wider range of products at internationally competitive prices.

This may sound obvious, but prices of tools sold to the trade are ultimately set at a level at which the trade will pay. When the time comes that more businesses and individuals source equipment from overseas, then prices will follow. It has happened in other areas, such as the computer hardware industry (although the Australian Government did help to facilitate open competition in this industry due to its national significance)

[fxst]

As R.C has said. Don't forget that if you bring in something yourself, if the cost is less that $1000. then customs doesn't worry about import duty because it costs them more to collect it than what they get from it. (so I was told by customs a few years ago). If its more than $1000 you have to pay import duty at whatever rate is applicable for the goods. then you have to pay GST as well. Not just on the cost of the goods but on the total cost. thats the cost of the goods + the freight costs + the import duty.
bollie7

With 1 ebay supplier 'Ozmestore' based in adelaide who sells tooling at what I consider reasonable prices he has all these costs plus warehouse and at least 1 employee that I know of. If all the costs are so bad how is he surviving? He has all the costs associated with importing plus his warehouse, rates, wages, (at Oz rates) public liability, (you can go to warehouse and pick up) workcover.
I tend to agree with woodlee et al that yes we are getting ripped off but we can avoid it and we as consumers do so by buying O/S or ebay.
An example ...today I bought a mt3 half dead centre from the UK for $A9.99 + $A8.50 postage wait tme 5-8 days.:D If the local bloke didn't have it in stock I could wait for up to 4 weeks to get it and at $45.53 ........:oo: I would love to support local businesses but with prices like that??:?
Cheers
Pete

[jatt]

I'm hearing y'all.

Aint the internet a wonderful place to browse for a better deal !!!!!!!

[new_guy90]

This is probably the wrong forum for this , but it is metal working related in that the tools I'm referring to are metal working tools.Mod feel free to relocate it if you think you should.

I just replied to a post regarding an angle plate .
Afterwards I got to thinking about the quality of service from different suppliers .
Most the overseas suppliers I deal with are most accomadating and will go out of thier way to being more than helpful.
For instance , I've had a $10:00US refund on excess postage just recently from one supplier .
another ,I just purchased a 3" R8 shanked boring head from the US ,it came with 12 boring bars and all the hex keys.
For $83.00US and $38.00 postage.

Now having a look at a well known Australian supplier ,
purchase the 3" boring head and bars , then purchase the shank separately
Boring head and bars $319.00AUD +post
Shank $71.00AUD .+ post

I purchased a 3" indexable milling cutter from the un-named supplier above and to my delight I discovered that the was no Torx key for tightening the tips into the cutter head ,I called them and they informed me that the key was another $12.00 + postage .
Their collet sets also look a bit diminished in the number of collets you get ,compared to what can be purchased on Ebay for a lot less from HongKong .
Most of the products if not all ,that the Australian supplier sells is made in the same factories over seas where the overseas suppliers get thier stuff from ,most likely the Australian supplier is buying in bulk and getting much lower prices from the manufacturer .
So I'm just wondering what's going on here , are we getting scalped ?
Kev

WHERE DO YOU ORDER YOUR TOOLS FROM!!!!! i found a website ages ago in the US that sells the quick change tool post holders for $10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! $10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! $10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! they are $100 at all the tooling suppliers over here :( and i dont have a square turret tool post :( and i only have 3 holders :C for $10 ill buy 10!!!!!! :D

[Big Shed]

CDCO sells them for $US8:2tsup:

[Dave J]

They have a flat rate box that you can load up to 20lbs for around $42 US dollars.
Dave

[bollie7]

I wasn't trying to defend any retailers here in Oz. ( I too have bought stuff from O/S and made big savings) I was just trying to throw in a few factors that would contribute to the higher prices here.
Years ago when I was in a different dept I had to organise purchasing industrial supplies for the workshop and we usually dealt with the "big industrial" supplier in Oz. We didn't buy the quantities of materials that others would have but we still got a very big discount of most stuff.
ie. I think at the time the retail price on a 50mm wide roll of emery was something like $30. our price was about $7. They would have still been making a profit. Small slot drills and endmills we were paying about 20% of retail.
At the end of the day, sales to home shop machinists would be miniscule in the grand scheme of things with the big suppliers when compared to the manufacturing and mining industry. The industrial suppliers will charge what the market will bear. Anyone who is/has been involved with or knows someone involved with the mining industry will have heard plenty of stories about the wastage and cost of items.
Friend of mine works at a one of the mines in the Hunter Valley. His job is to maintain the lube and air equipment. He was telling me that he has to change air hoses regularly. 30 metre, absolute best quality hose, gets a small abrasion 200mm from the end so has to be changed. Can't cut 200mm off and refit the end. Old hose gets thrown in the bin. (they make really good garden hoses, they dont kink)

bollie7

[.RC.]

One other point to make is sometimes the cheap overseas stuff is absolute crap quality....

I know a lot of stuff on ebay while cheap is rubbish compared to what is in the shops... I just bought an A4 laminator off ebay from an AU vendor..... It is no where near the same quality as the ones in the shops...

[new_guy90]

CDCO sells them for :2tsup:

THATS IT!!!!!! :)(:hapy::yippy::ohyaaa:"goes a little crazy and does a happy dance"

RC the tool holders i want came with my lathe when i got the lathe the dealer pointed out the tool post and the 3 holders were $800 worth!!!!!!!!!! the worst bit is they are crap the adjustment caps are crap one had the hole drilled eccentric so its so hard to get it right they only take 16mm tools!!!!!!!! 16mm i have to take a holder to work to mill down to get my parting tool in (i have to do that latter) and i only have 3 holders!!! at $100 for one that is just as crap im not paying that no matter how crap these $8 POS tool holders are its better than nothing and way better than $100!!!!!!!!!!

thanks again Fred im going to look on that site and see how much i can order and save :2tsup:

[Dave J]

The only bad thing I have heard about CDCO is the set screws, a box of quality ones from over here are not much though.
Jeff Beck from Tools4cheap sells tool posts as well, I have seen pictures of his tool holders against others and his are longer but cost more. He puts it in his ebay auctions in the link below
QUICK CHANGE LATHE TOOL POST SET FITS ALORIS BXA WEDGE - eBay (item 130371890720 end time May-03-10 07:15:33 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/QUICK-CHANGE-LATHE-TOOL-POST-SET-FITS-ALORIS-BXA-WEDGE-/130371890720?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5ac52e20)
I have also heard a lot of good comments about the 5C collet chucks from CDCO, and at $139 US dollars there cheap enough.

The Dickson style tool post I bought from H&F was expensive but really good quality and beautifully ground. I have had it for about 4 years now with no trouble at all. The only trouble is the tool holders are 70 odd dollars, so I am going to have a go at making some myself with the shaper when I get some cheap steel.
I have thought about selling this one and buying a heap of the cheap ones from CDCO like you are doing though, I think around 20 would do me.
There is a bloke on one forum with around 150 or more holders which I think is over the top for a home shop.
Dave

[Big Shed]

The only bad thing I have heard about CDCO is the set screws, a box of quality ones from over here are not much though.
Dave

Yes, I heard that too, so when I got my first 6 extra tool holders I bought 20 extra set screws from the local bolt place intending to replace them as they failed.
More than a year later I haven't yet replaced one, maybe I am not heavy handed enough?

[Woodlee]

Most of my US suppliers and the UK ones I have found on Ebay ,but they also have websites independent of Ebay , once I find thier off Ebay website I order from thier website direct.(Ebay is useful sometimes)
Some are Tools4cheap (lots of southbend stuff& parts ) , Shars ,Victory Machinery.
CDCO has good prices , but I have had issues with him and don't buy from him.

Uk one's are RDG , Chronos ,Tracey Tools ,RHR engineering.
If you have an Aloris wedge type tool post(single dovetail) , this is popular in the US and tool holders are easily bought , a Dickson (double dovetail )type is more popular in the UK and available from RDG and Chronos.Both have stuff for Myford lathes.

All of the above I have had excellent service and prompt replies from when e-mailing .All of them try and reduce postage costs as much as possible and give good advice as to how much you can jam in a pacakge to get the best value .Geoff Beck at tools4 cheap can send 20lbs of stuff for 42.00US .
Shars in particular I can recommend they sent me a postage refund ,after quoting $30.00 for post the very next day I got a Paypal refund for 10.00 US for over charge .
They also have a large range of Engineering products .

[matthew_g]

Well I'm convinced.....CDCO is the way to go...:2tsup::2tsup:

[snowyskiesau]

I have thought about selling this one and buying a heap of the cheap ones from CDCO like you are doing though, I think around 20 would do me.
There is a bloke on one forum with around 150 or more holders which I think is over the top for a home shop.
Dave

I've got about 12 holders for my AXA QCTP all of which were bought from CDCO. Of those, 3 don't fit properly. I'm sure it's something that can be fixed with a bit of work to the dovetail but at less than $10 each, I can't really comnplain.