DIY Canoe - Plan advice

[Capitan Morgan]

Hi I'm doing a bit of DIY from start to finish and I would like to know of any issues with the plan I have mocked up before I start cutting stuff. It looks ok but I'm not sure if it would be too wide for paddling or if its not pointy enough to make the end stitch together well or just be awkward for stitching/gluing. (Besides those things I don't know what else to look out for and have no idea at all about boat building {I have made a couple of throw away canoes previously but nothing good or planed for that matter} so really any indication of major flaws would be most welcome).

I will be doing a stitch and glue ply construction method with 4mm.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137865&d=1274891068

Thanks for any advice folks.

[anewhouse]

My 33 year old fibreglass canoe is about that length, but is less than 800mm wide.

It is extremely stable, but your design would probably have about the same stability in spite of its extra width. That is because the ends on yours are finer, so only a short section in the middle is close to maximum width. Mine has fuller ends so more of its length is close to maximum width, which gives greater stability.

As the canoe gets wider, it becomes more difficult to paddle efficiently, so it might be worth considering making it narrower but making the ends a bit fuller to retain the stability.

Are you planning to paddle it as a double or solo? At that width, paddling solo would be awkward.

[Boatmik]

900 beam is about the maximum you see.

When trying to survey approximate dimensions for canoes with different purposes I found pages like this on the internet to get a feel for approximate dimensions.
Canoe Buyers' Guide - Paddling.net (http://www.paddling.net/buyersguide/Canoes.html)

You can go reasonably wide with a single if the canoeist is skilled - they won't be swapping the paddling side very often - or if travelling with gear you usually end up migrating towards one of the ends of the boat with the gear in the middle. For example the Chestnut Prospector canoe is a high volume canoe that is well regarded for single paddling

Bill Mason's Chestnut Prospector (http://www.blazingpaddles.ca/mason/index.htm)
Prospector by Merrimack Canoe Company - Paddling.net (http://www.paddling.net/buyersguide/showBoat.html?boatID=230&boattype=Canoes)

It is a little narrower than the 900 though.

I don't mean the Prospector as a perfect model - just that a wider boat can be Ok as a single if it and the paddler are both good. But this is probably well away from the normal level of use of the average OZ paddler.

Best wishes.
Michael

[PAR]

Have you tested the hull for "developed" surfaces yet? How'd those broad strakes look when you did?

Rather then design your own boat, you should pattern it after a known design and make cosmetic alterations, until you understand the nuances of the shapes involved.

What you've drawn in a fairly well burdened "freight train". She'll carry a load and go in a straight line good. If these are the goals of your concept, then you've nailed it. If you'd like a little more maneuverability, maybe an easier to paddle craft, then you should revaluate the profiles and plan of the garboard and broads at the very least.

[Capitan Morgan]

Thanks Guys.

anewhouse ~ "As the canoe gets wider, it becomes more difficult to paddle efficiently, so it might be worth considering making it narrower but making the ends a bit fuller to retain the stability."

Thanks I hadn't thought of that. I had tried to keep a single arc through the whole thing but will look at fatter ends now to see how it looks.

Boatmik ~ "I don't mean the Prospector as a perfect model - just that a wider boat can be Ok as a single if it and the paddler are both good."

From one of the images that linked to the person paddling did seem to be riding on the side of the canoe. It looked a little odd, however I do plan to be doing tripping with another adult, I think thats the term for taking stuff with you for camping. That as well as fishing.. Mostly on calm lakes or rivers.

Par ~ "Have you tested the hull for "developed" surfaces yet? How'd those broad strakes look when you did?"

I didnt know what a "developed" surface was but searched for the term just then. I had actually done this it turns out. However I was not happy with the result the software I used gave me. I used autocad Lt to produce the plans and then imported it into Blender. I made the 3d model of it in blender by wraping each section point to point, then using the unwrap feature that is usually used for painting models on a flat surface.I know I should have used curves but thought I could fudge it by overcutting. I now know(think) blender does not correctly calculate the unwrap to a flat surface, It just looked so wrong. So I planed to work it out in cad using some math along with it. I dont know how successful it will be but if I over cut a bit then wrap my skeleton frame with it and trim it and then re-import the result into cad I will be able to tell if Blender was giving me a realistic result.

Par ~ "Rather then design your own boat, you should pattern it after a known design and make cosmetic alterations, until you understand the nuances of the shapes involved."

Im not feeling the DIY spirit within you ;-) I was wanting to do it from start to finish :-)

Par ~ "What you've drawn in a fairly well burdened "freight train". She'll carry a load and go in a straight line good. If these are the goals of your concept, then you've nailed it. If you'd like a little more maneuverability, maybe an easier to paddle craft, then you should revaluate the profiles and plan of the garboard and broads at the very least."

I had to lookup what garboards and broads were also :-). That was very helpful, I was wondering a lot about how it would travel. It was the idea to be able to carry a load of camping and fishing gear and go for a trip. I dont think Id trust it dodging bolders or trees so maneuverability was not a major concern. It does still make me wonder how un-maneuverable it would be.

If I put up some more versions would you mind terribly evalulating them. If not could you reccomend some software that evaluates if a boat will track straight V's maneuver well.


Thanks very much for you comments Par, Boatmik and anewhouse !!!

[titchtheclown]

Must admit I am with you on the fun of doing your own design. The Huls software comes with a ton and a half of earlier designs to play with- from catamarans to house boats - fairly old fassioned but seems extremely good at what it does, which is generate the cutout patterns for a spline across a bow plate, 3 bulkheads and a transom with as many chines as you want. Not particularly good at creating a round stem though. Not sure how compatible it is with the other stuff you are using.


Carlson Design Plotter/Cutters (http://www.carlsondesign.com/#Fun_Shareware)

[PAR]

The basic problem with all software packages, particularly the free and low cost offerings is it will generate all sorts of boat like shapes if you play with it, but it will not tell you if the shapes you've selected or drawn are well suited to the goals of the design. Some software packages attempt to address this with primitive VPP and other resistance analyses, but it still can't tell you what you don't understand.

This is where the education part comes in. Unlike the other engineering disciplines, yacht design has a fair bit of black magic, guess work and experience involved. There's only so much a mathematical model can develop, before you have to rely on intuition and abstract concept understanding.

Fortunately, canoes and other small craft are quite plentiful and are literally just what the budding designer cuts their teeth on (studying previous designs). If you screw up and it's a pig (because you ventured too far out on a design limb), well it's only a canoe and you can make adjustments from what you've learned on the next version.

Every designer I know has modeled their first efforts after someone else's well known design. This is principally because they want to have a success right out of the box. They'll learn things from this design and expand their understanding on the next version of the same design.

You can wing it if you like, it's not a lot of materials, effort and money if it turns out she's a bear to paddle or can't turn very well. This is a haphazard approach, but not an unusual one. It's the way I started when I was 12. Though by the time I was 16, I'd learned if I didn't want to get passed, out on the water by other boats of similar configuration, I better start "paying attention" to the successful designs and incorporating the hard learned lessons the designer's of these boats had earned, before me.

In short, you may very well be able to teach yourself how to extract your own wisdom teeth, but the wise prospective dentist, might want to study the subtleties of the procedures, before taking the pliers to your own mouth.

[titchtheclown]

It's a boy thing.

[Capitan Morgan]

Ok well I have now looked a fair bit at designs and went to something modeled off the prospector but with ply strips.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138134&d=1275218185
I'm going to go with this design and see how I go. Like Par has said the materials are cheap for a canoe anyhow and I have enough for two anyhow.

[anewhouse]

I think that is a significant improvement on your original version.

[Capitan Morgan]

Just reporting back in for the curious.

I am getting there.. Wired up loosely in this pic.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=140991&d=1278224117

[b.o.a.t.]

Making good progress.
What software are you using ?
cheers
AJ

[Capitan Morgan]

B.O.A.T ~"What software are you using ?"

Autocad LT - (not ideal as its 2D only)

[b.o.a.t.]

Using Gregg Carlson's "Hulls" myself.
Pretty simple 3-D
Not 100% accurate in the panels it develops.

I am (or have been) in the same situation as yourself - an absolute novice
who wanted to build a boat from his own head, not someone else's. Despite
Hulls' inaccuracies, I've built 5 kayaks from it which didn't let in water, and
performed more or less as expected.

For serious racing, for edge-of-the-world stuff, or for big ticket boats, I'd build
from a 'real' designer's plans. For the other 99-point-something % of my boating,
the whole DIY from idea to 3-D has been more rewarding, albeit at some risk.
all the best.
AJ

[b.o.a.t.]

strong familial resemblance to Freeship

[Capitan Morgan]

Thanks for the comments b.o.a.t, I might have a try of freeship next time round. I like all the open source stuff and having a poke around in the source code to see how things work.

[Capitan Morgan]

Current status - Off the mold, wired in bulkheads and tightend things up a bit. Having not epoxied/fiberglassed before, I got the bulkheads all neat and had my first attempt at fiberglassing inside the bulkhead.... and failed. It ended up a mess :( .. A bit more reading required before I have another go I do believe.

[b.o.a.t.]

What were you trying to do with the fibreglass inside the bulkhead?
pics?

[Capitan Morgan]

I was going to try taping just the joins in the bulkhead because I wasnt confident enough to do the whole inside due to lack of experience. The tape wouldnt stay still and kept folding on it self. I got frustrated and pulled it out. Figured I could let it go off and sand back any epoxy a bit before trying next weekend.

[b.o.a.t.]

Without pics it's a bit hard to visualise what might have been happening.
Am guessing you had the tape vertical up a right-angle joint?
Top kept peeling down?
whole mess kept sliding down?

Possibly had it too wet.
Tape seems to stick better if there's only just enough pox to make the weave go clear,
but not fill all the holes between strands. Wait for it to go barely tacky, then recoat
several times until the weave is filled and the surface flat. Unlike paint, which starts to
dry immediately as solvent flashes off, pox stays wet, runny & heavy until it is part cured. In this weather, that can be many hours.

Does that describe what was happening?

Your boat looks nice by the way.
cheers
AJ

[Capitan Morgan]

b.o.a.t ~ "Am guessing you had the tape vertical up a right-angle joint?
Top kept peeling down?
whole mess kept sliding down?"

Yes thats exactly it. I had lathered on the epoxy, when I would touch one bit of tape others bits would move away from the ply and lift, then stick to other bits of it self. It got very frustrating.

Worst thing is now I really want to try again and It will be another week before I can due to social engagements.

[b.o.a.t.]

ok.
ask me how I guessed that... :(( :doh:
on second thoughts, you've probably already figured it out. :U

glass floats in epoxy.
idea is to apply enough pox to be thoroughly wet-out, but not enough to float.
The lighter the glass, the easier this is to do. just a little pox goes a long way.

cheers
aj

[Capitan Morgan]

Just coasting along now, epoxy and I are now at peace with each other so all is good in the world.

Just thought I'd throw some pix up for the curious.

[titchtheclown]

Very nice :2tsup:
Congratulations on a job well done - Cant wait for pics of the launch

cheers
Titch

[Capitan Morgan]

Didn't tick the old thread warning checkbox and had to rewrite this...argh!

So as I was saying I've had a bit of a break from the build but have put in a bit of an effort in the last week or so.

I'm about to put some seats in however am unsure of height. Should I paddle it first with temps in place to get a feel for it or is there a formula/rule of thumb that can be applied?


Pics!

[b.o.a.t.]

Where they end up will depend a bit on how good your balance is, how stable
the boat is, how long your paddle is, & how strong you are.

My preference is for a higher seat, maybe 2 or 3 inches below the gunn'ls.
More comfortable sitting position, & more natural paddling ergonomics with the
water a few inches below my bum. Lower is more stable, but less easy to paddle.

My old Rosco 16 had timber/cane seats suspended from the inwales.
(Later models were alloy pipes glassed into the sides - cheaper to make,
nowhere near as comfy).

hope this helps.
Boat looks great.
AJ

[Capitan Morgan]

Cheers! I went with hanging them so I could adjust until I get the height I'm comfortable with and then I will put hollow dowel over the bolts. I may need longer bolts if I feel they need to go lower... but we will see..



Pix

[HELLICONIA54]

I envy you guys sometimes.Drawing plans,multichine etcI desperately wanted a canoe,working on the idea that,,,,if it looks like a boat and floats? its a boat. I made my stitch and glue canoe from scratch,no plans,no experience.LOL.Ok so its a pirogue/barge,,but its fun to paddle.Good luck with yours.How ever it turns out,it's yours and you will be proud of it.

[HELLICONIA54]

this is my effort,Big? yup.Heavy? yup.50Kg's.but it carries a family lol
http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo351/HELLICONIA54/Stormbringer/geelong007-1.jpg

[Capitan Morgan]

Here is the finished result, It has been working well since new years day when it was taken for its maiden voyage on the Brisbane River.

Since the pictures were taken It has also gained some round screw in hatch covers to each vertical face at the ends.

I have been fishing and camping a fair bit with it in the last 9 months, I even shot some rapids with it one day when the fishing was very ordinary. I really love it and don't think I would ever part with it or make another.

[b.o.a.t.]

Looks Good. :2tsup:
Took me 3 attempts to produce a boat I feel the same about.
Well done.
Pics taken where ? Caboolture River?
cheers
AJ

[HELLICONIA54]

this is my effort,Big? yup.Heavy? yup.50Kg's.but it carries a family lolhttp://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo351/HELLICONIA54/Stormbringer/geelong007-1.jpg
LOL quoting myself.There have been mods since her maiden voyage.The seats have been removed now the passengers/crew sit on folding Camp chairs,and i usually sit on the rear deck.Think "open plan".Still very stable with two large adults in chairs.Alot more comfortable for their aging backs.

[HELLICONIA54]

Have you tested the hull for "developed" surfaces yet? How'd those broad strakes look when you did?

Rather then design your own boat, you should pattern it after a known design and make cosmetic alterations, until you understand the nuances of the shapes involved.

What you've drawn in a fairly well burdened "freight train". She'll carry a load and go in a straight line good. If these are the goals of your concept, then you've nailed it. If you'd like a little more maneuverability, maybe an easier to paddle craft, then you should revaluate the profiles and plan of the garboard and broads at the very least.
A bit late for me.I just made,(what i later found out to be)a pirogue.I just wanted a 16 ft " canadian canoe"having paddled these boat for many years,but i lacked skills to make something grander.Mine is a load carrier too.What it lacks in finesse it more than makes up for in versatility.Good luck with yours.Looking forward to seeing your design built.

[mmixsetup]

this is my effort,Big? yup.Heavy? yup.50Kg's.but it carries a family lolhttp://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo351/HELLICONIA54/Stormbringer/geelong007-1.jpg

Hi there what length is your Canoe? I want to build one to fit my two kids, wife and I in as we live next to a river. Is it your own design? Looks great there

[titchtheclown]

Hi there what length is your Canoe? I want to build one to fit my two kids, wife and I in as we live next to a river. Is it your own design? Looks great there


That is a lot of persons for a canoe at one time.
I think the word plans might be a bit grand for the way to build one of these "three plank" designs :;. Basically you take three planks, make two of them pointy, stick them together at the ends (and maybe a small transom if so desired) put something to hold the middle apart so that it is about the width of your third plank at the bottom.
Use the third plank to cover up the hole in the middle. Add gunwales and seats and stuff. Most people these days make the planks by joining plywood.

For a canoe type use the sides are generally in the realm of around a foot to a foot and a half and the bottom around 2 to 3 feet. I am not sure of the point at which it stops being a canoe (pirogue) and starts being a row boat (dory). Length of 8 feet (toy ) to however long you feel like but divisible chunks of half lengths of plywood (8 12 or 16) are a good place to start.

-almost no plan method
Duckworks - A Two-Sheet Pirogue - Part 1 (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/12/columns/rob/02/index.html)
A bit more laid out plan (including seats etc) for lazy weekend canoe which is about the size you might be looking for :
Port of Toledo Community Boathouse (http://toledocommunityboathouse.com/plans.htm)
The mathematics behind it and more:
Boatbuilding With a Difference II (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/02/articles/bbwad2/part2.htm)

Two of first one will cover the family. The second one will be a tight squeeze for the family, or make one of each. The wacky lassie Wacky Lassie: an instant double paddle canoe to be built and used by kids (http://www.boats.backwater.org/Wacky_Lassie/Wacky_Lassie.htm) is a popular smaller one, though I must admit I added large air/storage boxes to the end of mine rather than pool noodles after I read up on how much floatation is needed in a capsize.


The Mik Storer Quick canoe is a similar design with finishing touches to make it slightly better in terms of speed and handling.

Another tip is to build it in cardboard at 1 inch = one foot or 1cm = 10cm- the toy chest will then be a spot to look for Power ranger action figures to scale which is important. The Lazy weekend canoe for example, would have no problem with the weight of 4 people but may have a problem with where they are going to put their arms and legs and the esky might have to get towed behind.
:doh:

Also check out Gav Atkins free mouse boat family of designs for a canoe like family fun boat.

Duckworks Boatbuilders Supply (http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/gavin/)

[Sumbloak]

Basically you take three planks, make two of them pointy, stick them together at the ends (and maybe a small transom if so desired) put something to hold the middle apart so that it is about the width of your third plank at the bottom.
Use the third plank to cover up the hole in the middle. Add gunwales and seats and stuff.:D Love the Boatbuilding 101.

[HELLICONIA54]

Hi there what length is your Canoe? I want to build one to fit my two kids, wife and I in as we live next to a river. Is it your own design? Looks great there

My canoe is 17' long by 3' wide and 15" deep.Weighs 50Kg's I used 9.mm ply for the floor,6.5mm for the sides It will carry 4 adults with 6' freeboard (large adults) I've had a few children stand in her,in fact i often paddle standing up.I used no plans.Built it as i went along, MAKING MY PIROGUE - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd3G4wFCuyM) Shows how i built it.

[labr@]

Add gunwales and seats and stuff.

I particularly like the correct use of technical terminology :U