Oneway grinder balancing jig in australia

[INVENTOR]

Does anyone know if someone in Australia sells the ONEWAY precision balancing system. ( for balancing bench grinders)
Or has anyone imported one. If so how well did it work?

[RETIRED]

I think Jim Carroll at CWS has used one.

[Cliff Rogers]

They don't list an Australian dealer on their website but you should be able to buy from them direct.
International Dealer List (http://www.oneway.ca/dealers/intl_dealers.htm)

[brendan stemp]

Jim Carroll definitely sells them. I saw it at the Sydney Wood Show and looks to be very good. A worthwhile jig for the out of balance wheels. However, I think more of us should be returning the 'out of balance' wheel to the point of purchase because they simply shouldn't be sold if poorly balanced. Retailers will obviously not know if they are poorly balanced so it ain't their fault but if you do get one then you should know it is reasonable to expect an exchange. The better manufacturers will be more careful about quality control.

[hughie]

One wonders how relevant this is. As this sort of tool seems to be aimed at the DIY guy rarely if ever have I seen one in industry.
If they are out of balance send them straight back, vibration can generally be fixed by truing up the wheel with your diamond dresser etc.


Wolverine Precision Balancing System (http://www.oneway.ca/sharpening/balancing.htm)

[China]

For a normal bench grinder to be affected the wheel would have to be a fair bit out, so as above take them back, balancing is realy only useful for tool room grade wheels for use on t&c grinders and suface grinders etc.

[INVENTOR]

Thanks guys for your replies. Many years ago Tim Skilton showed us his 'balancing' system of adding weights to the side of his wheels. It made a difference.
My experience with grinders suggests that it is very difficult to get the wheels to even run close to straight (poor quality washers etc) even before dressing.

[NeilS]

If replacing the wheel doesn't completely solve the problem then the next step might be to replace the pathetic nylon bushings supplied with most wheels. Some use use drilled bushings like these. (http://www.mcmaster.com/#drill-bushings-and-liners/=87hcp7) Does anyone know of an Australian supplier?

After truing the outside of a wider (40mm) wheel I found I was still getting some residual vibration and had to then true the inside (the inner side of the recessed area) which improved the problem a bit.

Would be interested to hear more on Tim's balancing method.

.....

[brendan stemp]

Would be interested to hear more on Tim's balancing method.

.....
I have seen a wheel he has balanced and it is simply a matter of some self tapping screws screwed into the side of the wheel at the point that needs extra weight. A bit agricultural to look at but it works. Perhaps I should leave it to Tim to explain.

I know one method used to find the heavy point goes like this: put an axle through the wheel needing the balancing and run it along the edge of two knife blades. The two knife blades are used because they offer little resistance/friction to the axle's rotation which allows the wheel to rotate freely around to its heavy point. Hope this makes sense.

[INVENTOR]

From what I remember, Tim used a thick flat washer that had a series of threaded holes that took small bolts, that could be added where required. Probably not dissimilar an idea to the Oneway unit.
I wonder if this concept should be done with the wheels mounted? that way it balances the grinder and wheels?? Wheras the ONEWAY unit seems like you balance the wheels first?

[NeilS]

I have seen a wheel he has balanced and it is simply a matter of some self tapping screws screwed into the side of the wheel at the point that needs extra weight. A bit agricultural to look at but it works. Perhaps I should leave it to Tim to explain.

I know one method used to find the heavy point goes like this: put an axle through the wheel needing the balancing and run it along the edge of two knife blades. The two knife blades are used because they offer little resistance/friction to the axle's rotation which allows the wheel to rotate freely around to its heavy point. Hope this makes sense.

OK, got that Brendan.

Thanks

.....

[NeilS]

From what I remember, Tim used a thick flat washer that had a series of threaded holes that took small bolts, that could be added where required. Probably not dissimilar an idea to the Oneway unit.

Thanks Inventor.

.....

[NeilS]

If you go with a wide wheel (the ones with the recess like these (http://www.cws.au.com/shop/item/200mm-x-40mm-x-120g-grinding-wheels)) and use Brendan's method for checking balance, then glue small counterweights (anything with a little weight would do) where required to the inside curved wall of the recess this would do the same job. In operation the centrifugal force would hold them in place and the glue would only have to secure them against any minimal forces that would dislodge them sideways....to become ballistic... :duck:

Just an idea.

But then Tim's method might be easier and safer!

.....

[Allen Neighbors]

I bought a Delta variable speed grinder, put some good wheels on it, and it vibrated like crazy... even replaced the funky washers with some balanced, machined washers made for the grinder wheels. It still vibrated. Tried truing the wheels with the dressing tool, and I guess my shaky hands kept me from getting it to optimum truth, so I sprung for the Oneway balancing system. The directions supplied with the system weren't too cool. The wheel is balanced off the grinder, and it seems like that wouldn't be the best idea, after going to the trouble to design something like that.
I finally got it all together, and balanced, and it still vibrates at times. I don't know if it's the grinder, or just old shaky! I still get sharp tools, either way. I don't think the Oneway directions are written plain enough for an old cutter to make sense out of them. :(

[Jim Carroll]

The Oneway Balancing system helps to balance the wheel before you put it onto the grinder.

You ask why do this. Well every manufacturer makes the wheels by the same process basically in a very large press.

This gives you a wheel that is roundish and not perfectly balanced.

What the Oneway system does is also replace the flimsy flanges that come with most bench grinders as these can get bent out of shape through overtightening from guys thinking that if they tighten it a bit more it will run true.

It does not take much time to balance the wheel unless it is really out of whack, then certainly return back to your supplier for a replacement.
The kit comes with both the right and left flange sets so if there is any bother then it will be eliminated at the start.

Once both wheels are balanced and put back on the grinder it is a matter of dressing the wheel ready to use.

You will actually hear the grinder running smoother after this set up is done.

If you have any undue wobble after doing this then you may have to look at the grinder to see if there is runout on the shaft or worn bearings.

We are waiting for more stock to come in so hopefully about a week or so.

As Brendan indicated we did recieve stock before the sydney show and were cleaned out, feed back from customers so far has been very good.

[INVENTOR]

Thanks Jim for the info. I will check your web site.

[Tim the Timber Turner]

[QUOTE=Jim Carroll;1189377]

Once both wheels are balanced and put back on the grinder it is a matter of dressing the wheel ready to use.

I'm going to have to disagree with you Jim.:)

Truing a new wheel after balancing can induce vibration.

The wheel should be trued first, then balanced, then returned to the grinder without disturbing the relationship between the the wheel and the flanges and the shaft (texta marks or a center pop on the metal parts will help here).

I balance my wheels on the grinder as this balances the rotor:? and the wheels together.

To do this you need a grinder with close to zero bearing drag. I found the Jimmy brand had excelent quality bearings. Most grinders have too much drag in the bearings to use this method.

It's no use trying to do any of this with the usual crappy press metal flanges found on most grinders:no:. You need to have machined flanges.

I'll repeat because it's important You need to have machined flanges.


That's my 2 bobs worth.

Hope it is of value to some.:U

Cheers

Tim:U

[Jim Carroll]

Tim with the machined flanges that come with the oneway kit this helps eliminate any runout of the grinding wheel, it does not true up the wheel which is the next step in the process.

There is times once the wheel is dressed to run true to the machine that you actually have to dress quite a bit to get it to run true, then you may put it back on the balancer to fine tune, you should find you would not need to redress once you put it back on again.


Yes we now have stock of the balancers have a look here (http://www.cws.au.com/shop/item/oneway-precision-wheel-balancer-kit-58)

[Tim the Timber Turner]

[quote=Jim Carroll;1189944]Tim with the machined flanges that come with the oneway kit this helps eliminate any runout of the grinding wheel, it does not true up the wheel which is the next step in the process.

Jim

If the new wheel is not round and don't forget they are made in a mold, balancing it first then dressing it round can introduce a degree of imbalance.

Better to dress it round first then balance it.

I'm not sure but I think that is what you are saying below.

There is times once the wheel is dressed to run true to the machine that you actually have to dress quite a bit to get it to run true, then you may put it back on the balancer to fine tune, you should find you would not need to redress once you put it back on again.

A couple of further observations

Some white wheels are badly out of balance, this can be experienced when buying a new grinder and it will run fine out of the box. Fit a white wheel and it walks across the bench.

8" grinders have more vibration problems than the 6" versions.

Having said all that I find it really annoying to have a bench grinder that vibrates across the bench when trying to put a fine edge on a tool.

Balancing was one of the better things I learnt how to do.

Cheers

Tim:U

[Avery]

If replacing the wheel doesn't completely solve the problem then the next step might be to replace the pathetic nylon bushings supplied with most wheels. Some use use drilled bushings like these. (http://www.mcmaster.com/#drill-bushings-and-liners/=87hcp7) Does anyone know of an Australian supplier?



.....

You might find something here.

Bushes - Small Parts Engineering Product Catalogue (http://www.smallparts.com.au/store/categories/bushes/all/pics/)

[NeilS]

You might find something here.

Bushes - Small Parts Engineering Product Catalogue (http://www.smallparts.com.au/store/categories/bushes/all/pics/)

Thanks Avery.

Their bronze ones should do the job. Might have to cut one in two, one for each wheel.

PS - good site for lots of other stuff....:2tsup:

.....

[NeilS]

.

Most grinders have too much drag in the bearings to use this method.



Tim, how long does it take for your Jimmy bench grinder to run down after turning it off? That would give me an idea whether my bearings have too much drag to balance in situ.

And, thanks for all the info on your method of wheel balancing.

.....

[QC Inspector]

I was told by my father (a cabinetmaker for his entire life) to true one wheel on the grinder at a time when doing it for the first time. So I take one off, dress the other, then mark it's location and take it off. Put the first one back on and dress it, reinstall the second wheel to the marked location and then lightly dress the pair of them. After that you just dress them as needed. Dressing with a single wheel on at a time removes the influence of the vibrations from the second wheel.

One thing that hasn't been emphasized is to have the grinder bolted to a solid bench or stand in order to dress them. If it is shaking and dancing around you will have a difficult time trying to get it round and true.

A friend gave me a set of the Oneway balancers for Christmas a few years ago. It wasn't something I wouldn't have bought on my own but it had better washers than the ones original to the grinder so I tried them. Did one side, marked and removed it, and then did the same to the other. Same as above. To my surprise the grinder runs smoother than it did before balancing. Put me on the list as endorsing the Oneway balancers. Pricey but they work. :2tsup:

Pete

[Tim the Timber Turner]

QUOTE=NeilS;1190186]Tim, how long does it take for your Jimmy bench grinder to run down after turning it off? That would give me an idea whether my bearings have too much drag to balance in situ.


I've just had a look. My 8" Jimmy grinder takes 6min 15 sec to come to a stop. It has a fair bit of wear on the wheels. With new wheels it would probably take 8 plus min to come to a stop.

Part of the reason it runs so long is that it is balanced. Vibrations will absorb energy and would reduce the run time.

Another way of checking is to flick the wheel with a finger and see if stops in the same place each time. If it stops in a different place each time you have too much bearing drag to be able to balance on the grinder.

If the wheels are out of balance on my Jimmy they will come to a stop and then reverse a small amount and stop with the heavy part down.

And, thanks for all the info on your method of wheel balancing.

Just out of interest I have found that a balanced wheel can start to vibrate a little as it is worn down. Not a lot, but enough to notice. A clean and rebalance is then in order. For me this would only happen every couple of years. I guess the explanation for this is dense spots in the wheel.


If you can't balance on the grinder then I would recommend the Oneway as a great tool, it has the machined flanges required.

Once you have balanced your grinder you don’t think about it again until you have to use a one that's not balanced.

Cheers

Tim
.....[/QUOTE]


And, thanks for all the info on your method of wheel balancing.

.....[/QUOTE]

[NeilS]

I've just had a look. My 8" Jimmy grinder takes 6min 15 sec to come to a stop. It has a fair bit of wear on the wheels. With new wheels it would probably take 8 plus min to come to a stop.



Thanks for that info Tim.

Checked mine and it only took 4min 28secs to stop. So I'm not going to be able to balance any of my wheels on that grinder.

Looks like I'm up for one of those off-grinder balancing contraptions...:(

.....

[rsser]

I feel left out!

For a decade I've used an 8" Abbot and Ashby (consumer model) bolted down; had many wheels on it and they've never needed more than truing with a diamond dresser.

Some time ago DJ advised that what really holds the wheel is not the bushes but the steel flange under the nut against the paper washer on the wheel.

[RETIRED]

Now that you have raised it.:D

Never remove the paper "washers" from the wheel, they are mini shock absorbers.

If the wheel comes without them they are normally supplied separately.

[Jim Carroll]

I feel left out!

For a decade I've used an 8" Abbot and Ashby (consumer model) bolted down; had many wheels on it and they've never needed more than truing with a diamond dresser.

Some time ago DJ advised that what really holds the wheel is not the bushes but the steel flange under the nut against the paper washer on the wheel.

Correct to a large degree ern, unfortunately over the years as with most things I have noticed the flanges getting thinner.

I have an old Mc Millan bench grinder which has very robust flanges but if you notice the machines today have not much more than pressed metal flanges which distort easily.

The central bush is supposed to take up the slack between the shaft and the grinding wheel.

One thing to make sure when mounting the wheel with the standard flanges is that the flanges do have full contact with the sides of the wheel and as indicated you must have the paper on both sides. If not the flange will slip and with the starting torque of the grinder the wheel can slip and then the nut will loosen, and you dont want that.

[Woodturnerjosh]

My 8" Jimmy grinder

This might be a stupid question but who makes this "Jimmy" brand and where can you buy them?

Thanks
Josh

[Tim the Timber Turner]

This might be a stupid question but who makes this "Jimmy" brand and where can you buy them?

Thanks
Josh

I purchased mine from a agricultural machinery company a few years ago.

The Jimmy brand was popular a few years ago (10?) but you don't see many these days.

A google search of Jimmy Tools brings up a web site with a range of tools.

However there are no bench grinders listed currently.

There is a 1300 number which might be worth a call.

Cheers
tim

[Woodturnerjosh]

Thanks Tim!

[RETIRED]

This might interest some. Applescotty's Scrapbook: Grinding wheel balancer (http://applescottysscrapbook.blogspot.com/2008/06/grinding-wheel-balancer.html)

[Big Shed]

Neat job that!:2tsup:

What a great site, particularly like his digital microscope (one for the skew test :U)

Have bookmarked his site, you could while away a few hours there, trouble is you keep reading that stuff and your hobby becomes "jig making"

Oh well, some people's hobby is sharpening, so whar's wrong with jig making?:D

[hughie]

Hmm, looks like he gets a lot of enjoyment out of making his jigs and he certainly has an eye for detail and finish.

[NeilS]

If you go with a wide wheel (the ones with the recess like these (http://www.cws.au.com/shop/item/200mm-x-40mm-x-120g-grinding-wheels)) .... and glue small counterweights (anything with a little weight would do) where required to the inside curved wall of the recess. That would do the same job. In operation the centrifugal force would hold them in place and the glue would only have to secure them against any minimal forces that would dislodge them sideways....to become ballistic... :duck:



OK, I've now successfully carried out this method on a 40mm wide wheel (ie the ones with the recess) starting with Tim's method of determining the point that requires weighting with the wheel still on the grinder.

I'm not recommending my method to anyone as it has some inherent dangers. I really don't want to be responsible for anyone else having a serious accident so think carefully about the dangers before doing anything similar.

My grinder has a lot more bearing drag than Tim's so the exact point requiring weighting wasn't able to be established precisely, but I was able to get a clustering of points marked in one quarter that gave me an indication of where to start. As it turned out the mid point of that cluster did prove to be the required location, so Tim's method did work for me despite the bearing drag. But it did take quite a few spins (at least 20 flicks) to get enough clustering to be confident that I had located the counterweight point. I also got a few random points that came up that were way off but was able to ignore them because none of them clustered. This wouldn't be an issue with better bearings or an off grinder balancing setup.


144416


The next step was to try out some different sized weights located mid cluster. The first weight that I tried turned out to be about 8x the weight required and sent the grinder creeping over the bench. I don't bolt my grinder down, just have some thin foam glued to the base board, so it was very clear that I had way over compensated with my first guess. I then progressively cut down the weight (a small strip of sheet lead) and test ran it each time to home in on the required weight. The test weights were 'secured' in place with heavy duty duct tape (a fresh strip each time). As the main centrifugal forces drive the weight up against the inside cup of these wide wheels the main job of the duct tape was to resist any slight lateral force that could dislodge the weight sideways from inside the rim. I used a generous amount of fresh tape each time.

Had the weight become dislodged it would have become ballistic with potentially serious (even fatal) consequences. I stood completely out of the firing line during each test run.

144417

Having established the correct weight (no vibration) I then contact glued the weight in place. Surprising how such a small thing can make such a difference.

144418

I'm thinking I may have to further reduce the size of that weight as the wheel wears away and eliminates some of the source of the imbalance. The contact glue should readily allow for that to happen.

The side safety cover will be replaced before I use the grinder.

I wouldn't attempt this method with a standard flat sided wheel. Without the recess of the wider wheels there is no 'safer' area into which weights can be securely glued. A method that secures the counterweights over the shaft and under the flanges would be the only method I would consider for flat sided wheels.

Probably would have gone with the Oneway system or similar had I not been also thinking of replacing the 1" wide wheel on the other end of the grinder with a diamond wheel (like the one that Brendan reviewed). They come already balanced so the reverse end of the Oneway pair would be redundant, and by not buying a balancer I'm almost there with the extra cost of the diamond wheel....:U

Work safely, and if you don't hear from me again you can probably guess what happened to me....:oo:

.....

[QC Inspector]

Neil I am curious if the final weight you glued in also had the weight of the tape added to it?

Pete

[Tim the Timber Turner]

I held the flange in a chuck and scribed 2 circles and use the indexing to mark the 24 points.

Drilled and tapped 24 holes.144465

2 screws added to balance wheel.

Sorry about the focus

Cheers

Tim

[Big Shed]

Neat idea Tim:2tsup:

Is that the standard flange that came with the grinder?

[Tim the Timber Turner]

Neat idea Tim:2tsup:

Is that the standard flange that came with the grinder?

Yup!

Standard on the Jimmy grinder.

Cheers

Tim:)

[NeilS]

I held the flange in a chuck and scribed 2 circles and use the indexing to mark the 24 points.

Drilled and tapped 24 holes.

2 screws added to balance wheel.



Eloquent solution, Tim.

Thanks for sharing

.....

[NeilS]

Neil I am curious if the final weight you glued in also had the weight of the tape added to it?

Pete

No, Pete, the tape weight was negligible compared to the lead weight, so didn't think that it was necessary. The weight of the glue added to attach the counterweight also compensated for some of the tape's weight.

.....