The best fingernail profile bowl gouge?

[Chief Tiff]

Hi Guys, I'm after some opinions:

What is the best fingernail profile bowl gouge to buy? I'm seriously considering a a Robert Sorby 3/8" but welcome any other suggestions.

My lathe is only a CT mini lathe so I don't need anything larger at this time.

[RETIRED]

How long is a piece of string?:D

You could ask 20 turners and get 50 answers. Sometimes a fingernail shape is not right for the job either.

This will show what I mean by opinions: http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml

[tea lady]

The fingernail grind is just your choice. The question is a "v" profile, or "u" profile or the parabolic one. :shrug: Personally I like a "V" shaped one. I got a Thompson bowl gouge when we did a group buy. I use the 1/2 inch most often. I have a hand me down 3/4 "(Kryo one, but I can't remember off hand what brand that is. :doh: ) that doesn't come out very often. My work isn't usually that big.:shrug: Mine are ground back a bit but not that drastically. :think: More like a peasant fingernail.:D

So that's two options. 48 to go.:D

[rsser]

A good beginner's profile in my book is a ladyfinger grind. You can get this easily on a gouge with a parabolic flute without a jig; just 45* on a platform and rotate the shaft, grinding smoothly up to the flute top on both sides so that when looking down on it (plan), it looks like a lady's fingernail with cuticles at the side.

Some more images here (http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Turning_Tools/Bowl_Gouges/bowl_gouges.html).

[artme]

TL: KRYO is a Henry Taylor brand. Specially heat treated ( I think).

Apparently the fingernail grind cuts very aggressively, so you might want to experiment first.

[tea lady]

TL: KRYO is a Henry Taylor brand. Specially heat treated ( I think).Ta!:B

Apparently the fingernail grind cuts very aggressively, so you might want to experiment first.
I also think a "not quite lady finger grind" would be better. But there are a lot of different ways to grind a bowl gouge, depending on what you are doing. No one grind does everything. :shrug:

[Chief Tiff]

Ah, maybe I should have been a bit more specific!

What I want to know is more of a value thing: does the steel hold an edge well, does it come sufficiently sharp to use straight out of the pack, does it sharpen and hone easily? I tend to prefer Sheffield steel for my tools but I might be persuaded to try something else if there is a good incentive.

I'm also after a comparison between brands; eg Robert Sorby, Henry Taylor, P&N, Hamlet, they all make pretty much the same tool but is there a brand which stands out over the others?

My chisels at the moment consist of a GPW wooden boxed set; these are fine but I'm trying my hand at small-ish bowl turning and I've identiifed a need for a fingernail-style profile bowl gouge. I know there are subtly different grinds, I'll have to take my chances with whichever one I decide to purchase and if I don't like it then I can always either re-profile it or purchase a replacement.

Thanks for all the replies so far, each one is helpful and adds more data! Like, thanks to Ern's link I've just discovered that I actually need a 1/4" gouge as these bowl gouges are sized between the flutes, not the original bar stock.

[issatree]

Hi Chief Tiff,
Well my desire is for P&N only. Aussie made in Maryborough, Vic.
I think a 10mm. B/Gouge would do you at this time, Unhandled as it is cheaper.
The 1st. 3mm. will not be to good, but after that, it is all go.
That is my 2 bobs worth.
Regards,
issatree.
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[NeilS]

Doug Thompson (turning tool maker) recommends mirroring the flute profile (as viewed from the end of the gouge) in the edge profile as viewed in plan view.

Here are two flute profiles, V and U to illustrate this:

...................V Flute .................................................. U Flute...................
143682 143683

.............V Edge Profile............................................ U Edge Profile.............
143684 143685

Reckon this is a good starting point if you have little experience or opinions on the matter.

As for brands, I've used and can recommend Thompson, Henry Taylor, P&N, and Crown. Have Sorby but not sure how good they are now.

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[RETIRED]

Ah, maybe I should have been a bit more specific!

What I want to know is more of a value thing: does the steel hold an edge well, Yes if sharpened properly. does it come sufficiently sharp to use straight out of the pack,Generally not. does it sharpen and hone easily?It takes practise if you are freehand sharpening. I tend to prefer Sheffield steel for my tools but I might be persuaded to try something else if there is a good incentive.

I'm also after a comparison between brands; eg Robert Sorby, Henry Taylor, P&N, Hamlet, they all make pretty much the same tool but is there a brand which stands out over the others? Not really but some flute shapes do not lend themselves to be swept back grinds. I prefer Henry Taylors but that is a personal thing. As issatree said P&N are a good brand. You could start another argument on this topic.:wink::D

My chisels at the moment consist of a GPW wooden boxed set; these are fine but I'm trying my hand at small-ish bowl turning and I've identiifed a need for a fingernail-style profile bowl gouge. You should be able to use the gouge that came in the set I know there are subtly different grinds, I'll have to take my chances with whichever one I decide to purchase and if I don't like it then I can always either re-profile it or purchase a replacement.

Thanks for all the replies so far, each one is helpful and adds more data! Like, thanks to Ern's link I've just discovered that I actually need a 1/4" gouge as these bowl gouges are sized between the flutes, not the original bar stock.It pays to check whether it is flute or bar measurement from the retailer.

For a first purchase I would recommend a 3/8" gouge which actually is on a 1/2" bar.

[artme]

KRYO holds its edge longer but is apparently more difficult to sharpen

I prefer the flut shape of the P&N, and the steel is damned good stuff.

Ordinary Henry Taylor has a good flute shape and I have these simply because I didn't know about P&N Before I bought.:doh:

Not fond of Robert Sorby. I have talked to a couple ofturners who say that RS went through a patch of variable steel quality.

[NeilS]

KRYO holds its edge longer but is apparently more difficult to sharpen



Artme, I haven't noticed it is any more difficult to grind a powdered/cryogenic steel to its level of sharpness than standard HSS and since you don't have to return to sharpen it so often it does, in effect, require less sharpening. But some turners who hand hone their tools after grinding report that the steel is harder to hone, which I don't so can't comment on that.

To be clear we are talking about two things here. Powdered metal technology and cryogenic tempering are separate aspects of metallurgy, but when combined enhance one another .

Powder metal technology is not necessary for the production of alloy steels, but it does allow higher levels of alloy to be added to a steel in finer fraction and with better distribution. The downside of PM technology is its cost.

As I understand it, cryogenics tempering of high alloy steels enhances the creation of carbides (eg vanadium carbide) which improves the wear resistance of the steel. However, a really sharp/fine edge is not so readily achieved because of the larger/harder carbide particle size when compared to high carbon or standard HSS. So you don't get it so sharp but it retains its level of sharpness for longer than standard HSS.... but no as long as some manufacturers claim..:wink:

Cryogenic tempering of standard (eg M2) HSS will improve its performance but cryogenic treatment of a high alloy steels will significantly increase their wear resistance.

OK, I think I have sorted that out in my own head and only hope I haven't confused anyone else......... :U

My own preference is to use a high alloy cryo treated tool for roughing out where the finish is not critical and a sharper standard HSS tool to undertake the final finishing cuts, the best of both metallurgies.


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[artme]

:- yes, you are right Neil. I should have been more specific and said honing.

[Cliff Rogers]

Most of my bowl gouges are like the Dave Peebels one in the link that posted but I also have one like first one of Mark Kauder's & one like the first one of Russ Fairfield's.

I really think that the steel that it is made out of makes more difference that the shape of the grind.

I have 2 Henry Taylor HS1 5/8" Superflutes, both ground differently & I like them the best compared to the others in my kit.

[rsser]

AFAIK powder metallurgy results in the formation of finer particles more evenly distributed, so other things equal, better edges should result.

Issatree, P&N source their HSS from Austria I'm told.

I've got a bunch of P&N gouges but would not recommend them to beginners as the flutes usually have distinct milling marks which need to be polished out to get a refined edge.

Sorby I've found to be variable in terms of steel quality.

Henry Taylor is my first choice but I'm developing suspicions about the quality of what they supply in the US market (as in badged Craft Supplies tools).

[jefferson]

What is the best fingernail profile bowl gouge to buy?



IMHO this is a misleading question. I see some difference between a fingernail profile spindle gouge and a swept back wing bowl gouge e.g. an Ellsworth grind. The wing shapes are completely different to say nothing of the flutes.

That said, in either case I would steer clear of P & N chisels in both varieties. I could re-grind some of my P & Ns to illustrate the point better, but take my word for it, the flutes of both bowl and spindle gouges are best left "standard".

I have a mix of HT's, Hamlets, P & Ns and others. I also sharpen the odd Sorby and like them too. Good English steel is good English steel.

Open away..... :D:D:D

[Chief Tiff]

Thanks again for all the replies; I've decided to go for the Henry Taylor "Kryo".

I like Robert Sorby's stuff and they were my default choice but enough forum members have convinced me to try something else.

I did briefly consider the P&Ns but only for patriotic reasons as I'm not sold on the quality of their steels; I use P&N drills and taps/dies at work and I don't rate them very highly. When I need precision or if the material I'm working is a more tougher/harder steel then I reach for my Dormer/Goliath tools.

[John Lucas]

I'm a big fan of the Thompson gouges. I like the V but I would use a U if I had it. There really isn't that much difference. It's more a matter of how you grind the tool and how you use the tool that makes you prefer one over the other.
Kryo and Particle metal tools have a lot of myth floating around. They should not be any harder to sharpen than regular tools. It all depends on the final hardness that the manufacturer leaves in the tool. You harden a tool so it's too hard and then draw it back to the hardness needed for that particular application. Files are left very hard, hand sharpened carving tools are left softer.
Kryogenics is just a method of improving the overall toughness of the tool by converting more of the Austenite to Martensite. These are the crystals that make a tool hard. It's my understanding that properly heat treated tool will not benefit from Kryogenics, however this takes some very precise control and more time. Using the Kryogenic method simply saves time and keeps the tool quality high.
Particle metal has an advantage of being able to mix in higher percentages of metals that make a tool tough or increased wear resistance. Melted steel only takes so much. The particle metal tools therefore can hold an edge longer because they have a higher percentage of metals like Vanadium.
Doug Thompson uses the best metal he can find combined with proper heat treating and Kryogenics. Then he sends the tool with a decent grind ready to go. They are not truely as sharp as I like them right off the shelf but would get a beginner going pretty well. He uses a Oneway Wolverine jig to sharpen them so it would be very easy to duplicate his sharpening if you own one of those jigs.
There might be some better tools on the market but as far as I know not anywhere near the price. Of course I live in the same country as Doug so prices might be better here.

[NeilS]

There might be some better tools on the market but as far as I know not anywhere near the price. Of course I live in the same country as Doug so prices might be better here.

Interesting post, John.

Agreed, DT tools are excellent value in Nth America, but with the A$ making ground on the US$ recently they are also becoming very competitive here in Oz, especially when a few of us do a group buy to reduce the shipping cost as Ern did for us last year.

I have three of Doug's gouges, but would be interested in some others if anyone else on this side of the pond wanted to go for another group buy... :cool:

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[rsser]

Doug's tools are good for our woods IMO. The extra vanadium improves abrasion resistance.

Like John I've not found them more difficult to sharpen (on a dry grinder) than common HSS (M2?). Haven't tried to hand or power hone any however. I have 3 of them; 2 have milling marks in the flute that are more than I'd like but the price was good.

A while ago I did some research on the advantages of cryo (not Kryo, that's HT's brand) treatment and it was ambiguous. IIRC Doug reckons that when you do it in the treatment process is important.

And John, AFAIK it's not particle metal but powder metal - but you're right, it's about what it does to the alloy.

Jeff, I was taught to use curved rests and small gouges to get the best results with bowls and I stick to that. The small P&Ns have U flutes and I use these often despite the milling marks; I had fingernail grinds on them but for interest have gone to a longer wing - that's more versatile in terms of tool presentation and effects.

Neil, I'd love to play with a DT skew but can't justify that whim ATM. The VL175 arrives tomorrow or Monday but the parcels will have to sit for a while. Flat pack stand, no probs; 218kg lathe to go on top, time to call for help!

[Old Croc]

Thanks again for all the replies; I've decided to go for the Henry Taylor "Kryo".

I did briefly consider the P&Ns but only for patriotic reasons as I'm not sold on the quality of their steels; I use P&N drills and taps/dies at work and I don't rate them very highly. When I need precision or if the material I'm working is a more tougher/harder steel then I reach for my Dormer/Goliath tools.

Chief, I am surprised to hear you discount the P&N tools, as i find for the average work their drills are the best for edge holding and value, and i use a P&N 10mm beading and parting tool, and it holds an edge equally as well as Sorby or HT,
but thats only my experience,
Crocy.

[rsser]

Dunno where their drill alloys are made but as posted, their HSS for turning tools comes from o/s.

[John Lucas]

Neil I've followed the various articles and posts on PM steels not taking as keen an edge and I haven't been able to prove it. I have a lot of PM tools, HSS tools and some High Carbon tools. I can get any of them sharp enough to shave hair off my arm. An I'm not talking about sort of getting a few hear and there. I'm talking about a clean swath 1" wide. It is my conclusion that for all practical purposes the PM tools will get just as sharp as any other. At least for our uses.
I believe this is because the carbide grains in the new tools are smaller and can therefore reach a finer edge before fracturing. I know that older carbide tools will not get that sharp. I've tried and could not sharpen them. The new Hunter tools are a good example. They come very sharp straight from the factory.
As far as edge holding I really could not tell much difference in my bowl gouges. At least not at first. When I got my skew there was a noticeable difference. I turned a lot of spindles and swapped back and forth between the PM and HSS skew. After just a few minutes the HSS tool would have to be touched up. The PM skew just kept on cutting. I found the same to be true when turning aluminum with the spindle gouges. I have both PM and HSS in a 3/8" spindle gouge. I had to sharpen the HSS tool several times to finish a project. The PM would do the whole thing with one or maybe 2 sharpenings at most. That pretty much proved it for me.

[rsser]

My experience with the DT bowl gouge is that it would fairly quickly lose the fresh edge off the dry grinder (smaller burr not lasting as long?) but then keep cutting longer than HSS; it felt a bit dull and felt like it took more effort than a fresh edge but it would just keep going. For the final cuts I'd touch it up or pick up a small gouge with a fresh edge.

[John Lucas]

I agree, but I touch up the edge of all my tools before the last few cuts. It's just a good practice.

[NeilS]

Neil I've followed the various articles and posts on PM steels not taking as keen an edge and I haven't been able to prove it. I have a lot of PM tools, HSS tools and some High Carbon tools. I can get any of them sharp enough to shave hair off my arm.

John, perhaps you are going beyond the 80 grit grinder that I use on all of my gouges. I can only compare my various gouges to that level of 'sharpness'. I do hone my skews and scrapers, but not my gouges. If I did I might agree with you.

Interesting comment on the newer PM tools having finer carbide particles. That would certainly explain why they can achieve a sharper edge.


My experience with the DT bowl gouge is that it would fairly quickly lose the fresh edge off the dry grinder (smaller burr not lasting as long?) but then keep cutting longer than HSS; it felt a bit dull and felt like it took more effort than a fresh edge but it would just keep going.

That has been my experience as well, Ern.

As I spend most of my time hogging down/out bowl blanks then the DTs are currently my preferred tool until I get to the final cuts then I can either resharpen the DT or switch to an M2 HSS tool.

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