Leveling a Nuttall Lathe

[Vernonv]

Hi All,
I'm after some tips on the best way to level this old Nuttall lathe.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/141151d1278449881-buying-old-lathes-pros-cons-100_2013.jpg


As you can (almost) see it has a large "foot" at the head end and a smaller foot at the tail end. Each foot has two mounting holes in it - the head has one front and one back, while the foot has one left and one right.

Now a lot of what I have been reading suggests that shimming under the mounting points is the way to go, however I'm concerned that that will significantly reduce the contact area of the foot to the floor (concrete floor) and place a lot of pressure on the 4 fairly small mounting points.

The other option to shimming could be to use adjustable feet, but again it places a lot of pressure on those small feet. Are my concerns unfounded?

Does anyone have any suggestions on the best way to level this lathe?

[Dave J]

Hi,
I would see how it sits as is first. If it needs twisting you could use a full lengh shim front or back of the tail stock end to bring it into line.

Dave

[pipeclay]

Is the lathe going to stay where it is for a fair while or do you intend to relocate occasionally.

[Stustoys]

wow by the look of that lathe you could hang it on its side from the roof and it wouldnt care.
How is the lathe fixed to the base?
The mounting point that I can see "looks" pretty soild. I couldnt see 4 good sized feet being a problem(75mm Dia or more). What size are the holes?
Stuart

[Vernonv]

wow by the look of that lathe you could hang it on its side from the roof and it wouldnt care.Yeah, it's pretty solid. :D

How is the lathe fixed to the base?Do you mean the bed to the feet? I assume it's bolted, but haven't looked specifically at how it is done.

What size are the holes?I would say around 16mm. 5/8" bolts are quite sloppy in the mounting holes.

[Vernonv]

Is the lathe going to stay where it is for a fair while or do you intend to relocate occasionally.Yes.:D

It certainly doesn't need to be transportable around the shed, but I am planning some changes in the next year or so that would require the lathe to be shifted to a new spot.

[Graziano]

You could always place some steel box or I beam under the feet at 90 degrees to the ways which raise it to get the top of the ways to approximately your elbow height (saves bending over). The box sections have jacking bolts onto thick steel pads countersunk to locate their jacking bolts. My lathe has cast in lugs fitted with jacking bolts to go onto pads. So in the pic, there is a bolt into the slab going through the hole in the foot and next to it is the jacking bolt for the steel foot resting on the cement.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144354&stc=1&d=1281504146

Edit: forgot to add, if you are epoxying threaded rod into the slab to bolt it down, then wax the rod that goes into the hole, this lets you remove it later by unscrewing it from the resin without adversely affecting it's ability to hold too much. If it still gets stuck, then warm it up with a blowtorch and it'll come out easily for relocation.

[Stustoys]

I'd use something like this(excuse the crappy art work). The black lines being 100x100x10mm plate, the bottom one with a hole halfway throught it like Graziano suggested. If you have 16mm or 14mm tap, you could tap the hole in 15mm plate and leave the bottom nut out. I guess it depends how tall you are :)
Stuart

[pipeclay]

Going to the trouble of levelling and grouting would be a waste of time for now.

[Vernonv]

I'd use something like this ...Yeah I was thinking about something like that, however the bottom the mounting holes don't sit on the floor, they end part way down the "skirt" of the leg (because of the way the legs are cast). This complicates matters as I will have limited (no?) access to the nut under the foot (to stop it from turning while turning the adjusting bolt).

There are ways around the issues, but I guess I'm looking for an easy solution ... and at this point I'm thinking that one possibly doesn't exist. :C

[Graziano]

Yeah I was thinking about something like that, however the bottom the mounting holes don't sit on the floor, they end part way down the "skirt" of the leg (because of the way the legs are cast). This complicates matters as I will have limited (no?) access to the nut under the foot (to stop it from turning while turning the adjusting bolt).

There are ways around the issues, but I guess I'm looking for an easy solution ... and at this point I'm thinking that one possibly doesn't exist. :C

Stu's method will still work if you have a piece of flat bar or plate that runs between the feet holes and is wider than the feet, say a length of 150 x 12mm flat bar that pokes out bit at the front of the foot and also at the rear of the foot at 90 degrees to the ways.

[Stustoys]

lol thats just what i was going to say Graziano. Only that at the tail stock the bar needs to run left to right because thats where the holes are.

As far as grouting lathes to the floor. Is this really worth while on a normal garage floor? They arebt exactly thick.

Stuart

[bollie7]

When I did my time there was a whole section in one of my text books about setting a machine up on shims and grouting in.
No one seems to bother about it (grouting) these days. You might find that the machine is ok just sitting on the floor. In reality it doesn't have to be level. You want the bed straight with no twist.
If it was my machine, if there was no twist and the bed was straight I wouldn't bolt it down. As long as both feet are hard on the floor it will be fine. The old Nuttals are a pretty tough old thing. At one Tafe I worked at there were 15 very similar to yours (these were the short bed version) which were just sitting on a wooden floor and they were all pretty accurate.
bollie7

[Graziano]

Ok, sit it on the floor and make some long wide and thin hardwood wedges, say 1-2 degrees and whack em in on the gaps between the feet and the slab where it rocks.

[Vernonv]

Stu's method will still work.... Of course.:doh:

Sorry, I think I'm having one of those "can't see the wood for the trees" moments.

[Vernonv]

You want the bed straight with no twist.Absolutely ... I guess I'm planning ahead and planning for the worst case scenario in which (regardless of exactly how level the lathe is) I will also have to adjust/shim it to remove twist.

[Stustoys]

lol bollie7 I'd forgotten about that. The floors in our EWP rooms were wood as well.
I think us new lathe owners may be a little to worried about it. Still I'd rather be to worried now than be worried in 5 years because I didnt.

I'm liking Graziano's idea, easy to adjust if it needs it and easy to move.

[Manuka Jock]

Does anyone have any suggestions on the best way to level this lathe?

How far out of level is the floor ? Is the high point the at the headstock end or the tailstock end ?
Or does the lathe tip to one side , towards or away from the operator ?

[Vernonv]

Currently there is a slight tip towards the operator.

[Manuka Jock]

But apart from that is it sitting flat to the floor on all bolt down contact points ?

[Vernonv]

Yes, contact between the feet and the floor is good. As I alluded to previously, the bolt down points don't actually contact the floor, it's the skirt of the feet that does.

[Manuka Jock]

And is that how the feet were constructed by the manufacturer ?

[Vernonv]

Yes, I would assume so. I don't believe they have been modified.

[Manuka Jock]

So whats the problem ?
Bolt it down to the floor as it stands

[Vernonv]

Because I don't what to go and bolt the lathe down, only to find that I need to unbolt it and do some other type of mounting system, so that I can then remove twist.

A bit of for thought now might save me a lot of stuffing around later. I'd rather do it right the first time.

[Manuka Jock]

Because I don't what to go and bolt the lathe down, only to find that I need to unbolt it and do some other type of mounting system, so that I can then remove twist.

A bit of for thought now might save me a lot of stuffing around later. I'd rather do it right the first time.

What twist ? You said the there is full contact with the floor .

[Vernonv]

What twist ? You said the there is full contact with the floor .:? Yes it has full contact with the floor, but I fail to see how that means that there won't be any twist in the bed. If the floor isn't exactly flat, the weight of the lathe may force the feet to sit flat by twisting the bed.

[Manuka Jock]

:? Yes it has full contact with the floor, but I fail to see how that means that there won't be any twist in the bed. If the floor isn't exactly flat, the weight of the lathe may force the feet to sit flat by twisting the bed.

Is the floor flat , on an even plane ?
If , without being bolted down to the floor , the machine does not rock wobble etc . then it is generally ok.
When it is bolted down , it is done so be taking up the slack in the thread , and then gently tightening the nuts much in the manner of tightening wheel nuts .

Does the lathe work ok as it is , no vibration , doesn't walk across the floor , centers line up etc ?

[Vernonv]

Is the floor flat , on an even plane ? It's a concrete shed floor and for all intents and purposes it's flat ... but would I use it as a reference point for a prescion machine ... NO.:rolleyes:

If , without being bolted down to the floor , the machine does not rock wobble etc . then it is generally ok.I'm after better than "generally ok".

Does the lathe work ok as it is , no vibration , doesn't walk across the floor , centers line up etc ?No it doesn't walk and the centres line up as far as I can tell ... but does that mean the bed is not twisted ... NO.

I'm not setting up a wood lathe here.

[Manuka Jock]

It's a concrete shed floor and for all intents and purposes it's flat ... but would I use it as a reference point for a prescion machine ... NO.:rolleyes:
I'm after better than "generally ok".
No it doesn't walk and the centres line up as far as I can tell ... but does that mean the bed is not twisted ... NO.

I'm not setting up a wood lathe here.
I have no idea what the wood lathe comment is about .
I can see by the photo that the Nuttall is a metal lathe,

Tell me , how many pieces of heavy machinery have you installed in workshops ?

[.RC.]

My Macson TC grinder has identical feet type to yours... I made adjustable jacking screws for it that sit on 100X100X10mm square plate... I cannot take photos of ot at the moment due to a broken camera, but when the parts for it arrive and I get it back together I will snap some happy snaps for you showing what I did.

[Vernonv]

Tell me , how many pieces of heavy machinery have you installed in workshops ?Not enough to think that I know everything, but enough to know when a solution doesn't solve the problem.

Just bolting it down will:
1. Not make the lathe level (not that that is then end of the world, but I would like to start with a level platform).
2. Possibly induce (or simply lock down existing) twist in the bed, with no recourse but to unbolt the lathe and try and find a way of remove the twist and then securing the lathe.

Sorry if I'm not making myself clear.

[Vernonv]

Thanks RC, I look forward to the pics.

[Manuka Jock]

Not enough to think that I know everything, but enough to know when a solution doesn't solve the problem.

Just bolting it down will:
1. Not make the lathe level (not that that is then end of the world, but I would like to start with a level platform).
2. Possibly induce (or simply lock down existing) twist in the bed, with no recourse but to unbolt the lathe and try and find a way of remove the twist and then securing the lathe.

Sorry if I'm not making myself clear.

Why not find out if there is a twist in the lathe first , before trying to sort out the floor .
Thats our usual manner of doing it .

[Vernonv]

Why not find out if there is a twist in the lathe first , before trying to sort out the floor .I feel I am going in circles here.

1. I want the lathe to be level, so I can't just bolt it down, because as I have already said, it it currently not level.
2. I also want a method of being able to remove twist that may already be in the bed or may be induced in the bed when it finally get it leveled and secured, so just bolting it down will not provide that.

[Manuka Jock]

I feel I am going in circles here.

1. I want the lathe to be level, so I can't just bolt it down, because as I have already said, it it currently not level.
2. I also want a method of being able to remove twist that may already be in the bed or may be induced in the bed when it finally get it leveled and secured, so just bolting it down will not provide that.
Twist and level are not the same thing .

Is the bed of the lathe twisted ?
If it is , 'leveling' it will not fix the structural alignment problem .
But if , as you say , the centers line up perfectly , then where is the twist ?

Is there flex in the unit ?

[Vernonv]

Twist and level are not the same thing I think I've made it quite clear that I know they are not the same thing, so why make this statement? For effect?


Is the bed of the lathe twisted ? Don't know, but I'll find out soon enough, once it's been leveled. There is not much point before that.

If it is , 'leveling' it will not fix the structural alignment problem . Yes I know that and again I think I've made that quite clear ... are you not even bothering to read my posts?

But if , as you say , the centers line up perfectly , then where is the twist ?Centers that line up does not mean that there is no twist. On top of that I am not even going to worry about tailstock alignment until I have the lathe leveled, twist free and secured. These are things I would expect an expert should already know.


Is there flex in the unit ?The machine is a bit too big and heavy for me to man handle it, so I don't know.

[pipeclay]

The lathe appears to be fairly solid as most Nuttall's are.

Do you have a machine level.

If so why not just level the machine by placing shims under the base plates.

If after levelling the lathe base and doing your checks you detect a twist or whatever then adjust the lathe to base.

Jacking bolts will only place strain on the hold down points.

[Manuka Jock]

I think I've made it quite clear that I know they are not the same thing, so why make this statement? For effect?

Don't know, but I'll find out soon enough, once it's been leveled. There is not much point before that.
Yes I know that and again I think I've made that quite clear ... are you not even bothering to read my posts?
Centers that line up does not mean that there is no twist. On top of that I am not even going to worry about tailstock alignment until I have the lathe leveled, twist free and secured. These are things I would expect an expert should already know.

The machine is a bit too big and heavy for me to man handle it, so I don't know.

Yes I am , I have read all of them .

Experts find out if there is a problem before trying to fix it .
But seeing as you know so much , I will leave you to it .

See ya :U

[Dave J]

Hi Vernon,
I read on another forum that it was suggested to use leveling bolts/feet to get it aligned, then paint the concrete with a release agent, then mortar around and under the bases. Then when it is moved later the mortar can be broken up and it will not have stuck and damaged the concrete floor.
This way would give you full support not just in the bolt areas. It might work using the black plastic they use under concrete instead of the release agent to grantee it doesn't damage or stick to the floor.

Dave

[Vernonv]

Do you have a machine level. Yep.


If so why not just level the machine by placing shims under the base plates.

If after levelling the lathe base and doing your checks you detect a twist or whatever then adjust the lathe to base. That was one of the options I was considering, my main concern being how big the shims need to be.


Jacking bolts will only place strain on the hold down points. Sorry I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you saying that's a good or bad thing?


I read on another forum that it was suggested to use leveling bolts/feet to get it aligned, then paint the concrete with a release agent, then mortar around and under the bases.Thats an interesting suggestion (about using the release agent/plastic). Would certainly make relocation easier and less damaging to the floor.


Yes I am , I have read all of them .Maybe time for a refresher???


Experts find out if there is a problem before trying to fix it .And here I though they followed a logical procedure to achieve the best outcome, rather than just rushing in an bolting the sucker down. I guess I should be happy that you have now educated me. :rolleyes:

I will leave you to it .Thank you.:2tsup:

[Manuka Jock]

Maybe time for a refresher???

And here I though they followed a logical procedure to achieve the best outcome, rather than just rushing in an bolting the sucker down. I guess I should be happy that you have now educated me. :rolleyes:
Thank you.:2tsup:

Who , but yourself has mentioned rushing in and bolting it down ? :rolleyes:

You read the thread again . :doh:

[pipeclay]

In regards to the jacking bolts at the hold down points I would call this a bad idea.

You would be putting a lot of load on only a few points on the feet.

In regards to size of shim for levelling i would think that no more than 2" square .

How much shim or packers do you require at the moment to get the lathe level.

[Vernonv]

In regards to the jacking bolts at the hold down points I would call this a bad idea.

You would be putting a lot of load on only a few points on the feet. OK, thank for clearing that up.


How much shim or packers do you require at the moment to get the lathe level.Looking at how much out of level it is I would expect somewhere between 5 and 10mm.

[Vernonv]

Who , but yourself has mentioned rushing in and bolting it down ? :rolleyes:
:aro-d:

So whats the problem ?
Bolt it down to the floor as it stands
:doh:

[pipeclay]

Have you done your calculations for the intial amount of packing useing the spirit level as a gauage or just guessing.

What I mean by that have you packed under the level to get your sizes.

[.RC.]

I bought my old digi camera out of retirement and snapped a couple of pics...

What I did was made up the bits that fit in the hole out of two pieces welded together (the large round flat bit that supports the machine and the hollow bit that fits in the machine base hole) and it has a short threaded portion on the bottom of it... Into this screws the bolts I made up and they sit on the 100X100X10mm plate and the plate has a small countersunk hole in the middle of it...

Clickable thiumbs

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/th_graderwithslasher001Custom.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/graderwithslasher001Custom.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/th_graderwithslasher002Custom.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/graderwithslasher002Custom.jpg)

[Vernonv]

Have you done your calculations for the intial amount of packing useing the spirit level as a gauage or just guessing.

What I mean by that have you packed under the level to get your sizes.No, I am estimating based on how much I needed to move the level to get it level - the gap between the level level and the bed it what I was looking at.

[Vernonv]

I bought my old digi camera out of retirement and snapped a couple of pics...Thanks RC, very informative :2tsup:

[bollie7]

Vernon
I'm not having a go at you so please don't take this the wrong way.:U
But I think you are worrying too much about this.
Its a 40+ year old Nuttall. they are a strong, tough machine. I doubt if it would have any twist in the bed with it sitting on the floor. Why not just make sure its sitting on solid on the floor, plug it in (wire it in) and do a few test cuts?
If it was mine, thats what I'd be doing. I wouldn't even be thinking about bolting it down. Its not going to move. The only way it will move is if you are turning something on the face plate that has a large mass off centre or maybe turning a biggish eccentric. Even then if its that much out of balance then you will be running the machine pretty slow.
Go and enjoy making stuff on it mate.:2tsup:

bollie7

[Vernonv]

Fair enough Bollie, however as I mentioned before the lathe currently isn't level. While I know that is not a big issue in itself, there is also practical reason I want the lathe level. In the tail end leg is a coolant reservoir and it has a drain plug facing the rear. As the lathe currently isn't level, the coolant pools to the front and I can't completely drain it.

The reason for starting this thread was to get some opinions on the best way to level a lathe like the Nutttall (as it doesn't really have any obvious "built in" ways of leveling) and while I was at it also consider my options SHOULD I need to adjust for twist after leveling.

[pipeclay]

Have you leveled any type of machine before useing the engineers level?

If not how long is the level?

What graduations are on the level(not that important.

Measure the distance from the left hand side of the headstock foot to the right hand side of the tail stock foot.

Measure the distance from front to back of the feet.

Place your level on the lathe bed any where that is a flat machined surface.

Get a set of feeler gauages and place under the low side of the level.

Take note of the thickness.

Divide the length of headstock to tailstock by the length of your level.

Multiply this by the size of the feelers under your level.

This will be a starting point for the thickness of packer you will need.

Do the same for for and aft.

If you end up with the same amount of packers at all spots to bring it level good luck.

Generally you will need to do this three or more times to get it to within 1 line or less on your level.

Not sure if you can follow what I have said but it was the way I was taught and its worked well for me on machines from 50kg through to 300 ton.

[bollie7]

Vernon
How you going with this? Any progress yet?
You mentioning emptying the coolant tank brought back some memories for me. Not long after I first started in TAFE I was employed in one of the F & M workshops. Every 6 months I had to empty the tanks from 13 Nuttalls, 2 Colchesters and 5 mills. At that time the head teacher wouldn't spend the extra money for a synthetic coolant so we were just using soluble oil & water. He also insisted that I wash each tank with hot water. After doing it manually the first time I got the Maint Fitter to set up an old Holden oil pump on a trolly with an electrc motor. That made the job a lot easier.

For those who might not know this.
Do not wet turn cast iron, particularly if using soluble oil and water coolant. The CI will make the coolant go off in a matter of hours. You can smell it when its off.

bollie7

[Vernonv]

How you going with this? Any progress yet?Unfortunately I'm flat out with work and home stuff at the moment, that I haven't even had time to scratch my own ... well you get the idea.

The lathe is in position, but is still up on "chocks". I remain undecided as to whether I should go the adjustable feet or the shims. I'll get there, it just may take a little bit of time.

[tlbsg]

thank god i did not have this much stress with my nuttall:C

[Vernonv]

OK, job done.

Although I was keen on the adjustable feet, I ended up opting for the use of long shims, as I had them available and it didn't need to manufacture anything (especially with time at a premium at the moment).

If/when I extend the shed and move the lathe I might then consider going the adjustable feet route.

:2tsup:Thanks all for your input and suggestions ... now to check for twist.

[Dave J]

Good to hear you are up and running.:2tsup: Now you can get some chips flying.

Sometimes leveling a lathe gets more complicated than it needs to be.
When I bought my new Chinese lathe I used a Stabila carpenters level and bolted it down. It was like this and ran perfectly true for 4-5years. I moved it and picked up a cheap precision level so I use that now only because I have it.
Leveling doesn't really affect anything if your work is near the chuck, it's when it gets down the bed away from the chuck that it matters.

Dave