mill super x3 vs hm 46

[rfurzer]

I am a milling newbie and only want to mess about with model engineering.

I have seen the sieg super x3 and the HM 46 on the HF website

Anyone own one of these? How does it go?

How useful is the tilting head?

[Dave J]

Hi,
Since no one has answered I will give you my opinions.
The HM46 is a much better machine than the X3 and will mill steel nearly as quick as the X3 does aluminum. The HM46 has 4 times the weight over the X3 which makes it a lot more rigid.
If I hadn't got a bit of extra money when I did, I would have bought a HM45 instead of the HM52
As for the tilting head it is good to have to be able to tram the machine perfect instead of being stuck with what the factory gave you.
Some jobs the tilting head will help, but you can get away without it. I have had a HM52 for around 31/2 years and haven't needed it tilted for anything yet.
The RF31 is a good machine as well if your stuck between the 2 prices (I see there on special at the moment) a lot of blokes have them and make some tricky stuff on them.
It all comes down to cost, if you can afford it, the HM46 will be the better machine by far over the X3, if not I would go for the RF31.
Just remember to leave around a $1000 for tooling to get started.
Hope that helps a bit, now hopefully someone that owns one of them or had experience with both can step in.

Dave

[Sterob]

I've got a HM-45 and if I had to do it again, I'd buy the HM-48.

I have had the Mill for about 2 years, but have not done much with it. I have never used the tilting head, but it only has to be needed once for it to be worth it.
Hard for us to help too much as its easy to spend someone else's money.
DaveJ has just about covered it all. Go and have a look at them. They are vastly different in physical size.
Sterob

[rfurzer]

Thanks for the input on the hm48. I will have a look but think that the cost will defeat me. I am only messing about and wonder if i can "justify" a mill at all. Having decided that i can, i still have to be somewhat realistic.

I note that there is the hm46, which is dovetail column and the hm35, basically identical except round column. Is there any advantage to one over the other?

What is the point of being able to tilt the head 90 deg? I assume that it isnt possible to do any horizontal milling as the head would hit the table (am I wrong?)

thx

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Thanks for the input on the hm48. I will have a look but think that the cost will defeat me. I am only messing about and wonder if i can "justify" a mill at all. Having decided that i can, i still have to be somewhat realistic.

I note that there is the hm46, which is dovetail column and the hm35, basically identical except round column. Is there any advantage to one over the other?

What is the point of being able to tilt the head 90 deg? I assume that it isnt possible to do any horizontal milling as the head would hit the table (am I wrong?)

thx

It sounds to me like mentally you are just about where I was 2 or 3 months ago. And I ended up with a Bridgeport clone :- Still not sure what I'll actually use it for, beyond a good drill press, but hey, it should be fun!

I wrote any of the round column mills off pretty quickly, as I don't have the patience to realign everything any time the head goes up and down. The round column means that you can swing the head around in an arc across the table (horizontally), but it also means that when you raise and lower the head, it can go out of alignment. My understanding of that would be, say you drill a pilot hole in something, then raise the head to put a bigger drill bit in. When you lower the head again, it may not be centred over the hole anymore (left to right).

Dovetail slides eliminate this issue, but you lose the ability to swivel the head. Howvever, whenever you raise and lower the head, it should come back down to exactly where it was.

Tilting the head 90 degrees I suppose would give you some amount of ability to horizontally mill (if the item was set up high enough), but is probably more useful for milling on angles without losing space to an angle vice.

I would suggest though, if contemplating the HM46, check out Standaco's DM45 Standaco - Machinery Sales Australia - Hobby Equipment (http://www.standaco.com.au/page.asp?parentid=72&parent2id=83&productid=22). Bigger table, a bit more travel, a bigger motor, and the option for an R8 spindle should you want it. It costs just a little more than the HM46, but also comes with the stand (extra at H&F), and quite often people seem to get little extras thrown in (powerfeed or something) for nothing. Asset also have versions of the same thing, some with power crank for raising and lowering the head and various other extras, but of course more cost. (It was at about this point I went towards a Bridgeport, looking at this SM-MD45XL. Mill Drill. Steelmaster Geared Drive Mill Drill, Coolant, Dovetail Guides, Digital Depth. - Asset Plant & Machinery (http://www.assetplant.com/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/shop/Products/11-0310) machine at Asset, I decided I was being stupid looking at spending this much on a mill drill when I could pick up a full size knee mill with all the same features for the same price. Besides, I'm addicted to INDUSTRIAL machinery, not machinery which is usually classed as 'hobby' gear!)

Incidentally, there is a shop in Canada which sells ISO30 spindles for the DM45 (RF45, HM45/46 etc) for about $100 (Canadian). Would open up a world more tooling, seems to be a lot more stuff available for 30 taper than MT. I've deleted the bookmark now, having the Bridgeport, but I could find it again if anyone was interested.

If you are looking just to do model engines, then either the X3 or the HM46 style machine would likely both suit you fine. I wouldn't bother with the HM36, for the price difference to the HM46 I'd spring for dovetail slides (or get the X3), but that is just me. Depends on the size of thing you want to do really, but remember with milling machines weight is king - more rigidity, better surface finishes. Most of the guys who get really serious with the X series machines seem to spend some time reinforcing them and making them heavier.

Do some google searches using 'X3' and 'DM45', and read up on what other people are doing with them, what they like and dislike about them. There are plenty of forums in the States and other places with plenty of people talking about these machines, which should help you out. For my money, in that bracket, I was set on the Standaco DM45 as being the best option until I convinced myself into a knee mill :rolleyes:

[Dave J]

There is a huge debate on every forum, round column V's square column (dovetail column). both have advantages and disadvantages. Do a goggle search and you will find heaps of info and arguments.
The main one with the dovetail column is when you raise and lower the head it stays lined up with the work because of the dovetails, and doesn't swivel side to side like the round column.
The main one with the round column is, you can swivel the head to either side to machine longer pieces than you can with the dovetail one.

The HM32,36,46 and the RF31 are all very capable machines and will do most everything you throw at them. The belt drive ones will run quieter and I have read of a lot of people pulling the gear head ones down to clean the sand and grit out of the gear boxes, but they do have the advantage of easy speed changes without moving belts.
Also something to consider is what you will be using it for, the belt drive ones have higher speeds which is good for aluminum work and 12 speeds instead of 6.

As for the tilting head it's not for horizontal milling it's for milling at an angle. It is usually easier to setup the job at an angle to save retraming the head.

A friend of mine is almost 60 and is a fully qualified working machinist and has had a HM32 equivalent for years and is more than happy with it.

Looking at them I see the HM32 has the larger table which is always good, but the RF31 is Taiwanese I think. If it was up to me and on a budget I would go for one of these and buy some tooling with the change, because it no good having a machine with no tooling. A vise will cost around $150, $70 for a set of end mills, $70 parallels, $40 dial indicator $40 magnetic base etc. As you can see it soon adds up.
The only benefits you will get with the HM46 over these is having the head stay in position if you raise and lower it halfway through a job.
The mill drill's hold there value pretty good so if down the track you decide to go another way you will get most of your money back on it.
I know what it's like buying something new and wanting to buy right one the first time.
If you give us a bit more info on what you will be using it for, we will be able to help you a bit more.
Dave

[rusty steel]

I have a mill similar to the HM46 with a few extra features ( Mine is a Zay 7045FG/2 )
I made a few modifications and have been happy with its performance. I have found that I often have to raise or lower the head between operations,eg drilling a pilot hole and then fitting a larger drill or using the boring head. The dovetail column makes this possible without losing centre. I think a round column would be very frustrating , but many people seem to cope with them. The H&F machines have a 3 MT spindle taper . I think if you could find a machine with R8 taper you may be able to find accessories easier to come by . My mill has a 4 MT spindle and there is not much around for it.
Regards, Russell

[Col2310]

I bought my RF31 just 12 months ago with initial cost the criterion.
It has performed well despite my limited milling capabilities and agree that the loss of position when raising the head is its major shortcoming.
I have partially solved it by attaching a Laser Pointer light to the side of the head which projects a small Red Spot and is aligned with a black vertical line on a white board some 6 metres distant on the far wall of my garage. When starting a project that requires constant moving of the head, I align the spot on the line and for any further movements, I re-align the spot within + or - 10mm.
20 mm over 6 metres is a small deviation for the simple work I do.

This may help other frustrated RF31 owners.

Col

P.S. The Laser Pointer cost was $4.50 from HK.