Need advice on HSC major

[teakman]

Good day
I’m starting my HSC major woodworking project im planning to make a work bench,the timber im thinking of using- blue gum and Tasmanian oak. What are your recommendations? Can you provide me with some future preparations (must and must not)any good ideas to incorporate into my project that will boost appearance or efficiency .and how big must my folio be in pages and how much time must i spend in making my Folio ANY info will be appreciated Thanks for the help
cheers

[ian]

Hi Teakman

if you do a bit of searching, you will be lead to a wealth of references, most of which are books on the subject of work benches.
After a fair bit of reading you will have the answers to most of your questions.

Though I can't help with the portfolio stuff, the primary critera for a work bench are:

height should match the primary task -- planing, assembly, power tool use
and
rigidity -- which is not the same as mass (though mass is important in terms of helping to resist force)

as to timbers...
cheap is good
a light colour is good
a high Janka value is also good

[Fuzzie]

What do teachers do these days?

<Uncle Grumpy hat on>

Surely most of these questions should be directed to your teachers, since they will either mark the project or understand the features the examiners will be looking for more than a random selection of old farts on the internet.

What you will find here is a myriad of conflicting opinions on what is best for individuals who make different things in different ways and have different preferences. A good teacher should be mentoring you in the direction you want to go otherwise you will have to invest the time yourself reading all the workbench threads and how to books and judge what is best for your own interests.

<off>.

[teakman]

Fuzzie
This is true,but even if any info i receive that will advice me weather from my teacher or some old guy it will be help and progress to build the ultimate workbench ,more ideas the better...:2tsup:
guys keep it coming by the way im planning to do the 18th century work

Planning to build a 18th -century work bench-http://www.woodworkersbookshop.com/product/build-an-18th-century-workbench-DVD/cd-dvd
I already bought his book to build this bench
any suggestions:2tsup:...timber?
Sizes?
Good or bad idea?
cheers:D

Is the wooden vice leg a good feature to add?

Cheers

[mic-d]

Planning to build a 18th -century work bench-http://www.woodworkersbookshop.com/product/build-an-18th-century-workbench-DVD/cd-dvd
I already bought his book to build this bench
any suggestions:2tsup:...timber?
Sizes?
Good or bad idea?
cheers:D

Is the wooden vice leg a good feature to add?

Cheers

Woohoo! That is a fantastic bench, adaptable to both hand and powertools. Although I don't have that Chris Schwartz book, I do have his other workbench book and have used it to build my version of the Roubo bench. Listen to all he says...
As for timber Bluegum would be fine for the bench or substitute tas oak for the support structure. Sometimes large dimension old growth oregon comes up cheapish and it would also be excellent for the substructure.
I have used a leg vise for a couple of years now and find it an excellent style and cheap to make.

Cheers
Michael

[Fuzzie]

Christopher Schwarz has lots of good ideas. For example check out the Popular Woodworking link mentioned in the following thread http://www.woodworkforums.com/f11/preferable-vice-type-67101/#post1096993 (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f11/preferable-vice-type-67101/#post1096993)

There are lots of other interesting threads on this site, but you really should start researching them yourself. If you find an interesting thread, try asking a question about it in the relevant thread.
(http://www.woodworkforums.com/f11/preferable-vice-type-67101/#post1096993)

[Joosh]

Ive just finish my major project this year and this is my advice

Folio can be as long or as short as needed they are looking for QUALITY not QUANTITY

You need to check with your teacher but you might need to research into other designs you cant just copy another persons project

[teakman]

Joosh
Thanks for the advice josh, i apologise for being nosy but what did you build for you major and roughly how much was the cost,because im planning to build a work bench such as this one

However,i wont use the exact design but i will incoperate my design and add similar fetures however as you can see with the thick hard maple this might turn somewhat expensive my budget is not limited i managed to talk my old man into funding this and he is keen but having a cost to high for the major can i play as a disadvantage in the marking guide i understand cost wont act as an advantage ... anyways i also want to incoperate a leg vice wich is $300 alone do u think im going overboard? or must i keep it simple.
appreciate the advice
cheers

[teakman]

I have used a leg vise for a couple of years now and find it an excellent style and cheap to make.

Cheers
Michael

Michael
I was planning to import the vice leg from America... Home - Wood Vise Screw (http://www.lakeerietoolworks.com/) is it more practical to buy or make one,If you have any plans on how to make a vice leg that will be great.,The Roubo bench is bloody cool it just makes operations easier how long did you spend on making it? and did you use the thick hard maple 10cm top..etc.I was planning to use recycled ironbark and spotted gum i have a rough price referance from a recycling company A 200x50 recycled piece is $60 a metre
A 300x50 recycled piece is $97.40
Is this a reasonable price for spotted gum and ironbark??
Thanks for the advice mate:2tsup:
cheers lance

[sercher]

Michael
I was planning to import the vice leg from America... Home - Wood Vise Screw (http://www.lakeerietoolworks.com/) is it more practical to buy or make one,If you have any plans on how to make a vice leg that will be great.,The Roubo bench is bloody cool it just makes operations easier how long did you spend on making it? and did you use the thick hard maple 10cm top..etc.I was planning to use recycled ironbark and spotted gum i have a rough price referance from a recycling company A 200x50 recycled piece is $60 a metre
A 300x50 recycled piece is $97.40
Is this a reasonable price for spotted gum and ironbark??
Thanks for the advice mate:2tsup:
cheers lance


I just bought 5.4 meters 240mm X 45mm of tassie oak for 139.00 and thought that was steep beleive you can do a better price than that for recycled timeber.

[Lignum]

I just bought 5.4 meters 240mm X 45mm of tassie oak for 139.00 and thought that was steep beleive you can do a better price than that for recycled timeber.

Are you ok with letting us know who you got that timber from? Im sure they wont mind as it will be good for business.

[eddie the eagle]

HI Lance,

I got your PM, but am up to my armpits in alligators at the moment. (note the timestamp of this post and apologise as I got your PM two days ago.)

Remember that really small projects also score well. Bigger is not better in the HSC. Quality of joinery, quality of design, quality of execution and quality of folio are the sellers that get you the result. Did I mention quality not quantity?

The key to success, where most of your cohort fail, is planning.

(1) Decide early exactly what you are doing
(2) Draw up and research early all pitfalls, come up with a final design and manufacturing drawings early. (I set a task of having a complete folio prepared to HSC standard by week 4 of term 4, complete specification, research, design and drawing, meaning that your diary is the only remaining thing in the folio.)
(2a) Sit down with your drawings and write out a plan of attack. In what order are you going to do your work? How and when. When do you glue components together? Having this plan saves you from making a mistake that sets you back in more than one way.
(3) Do not deviate from your manufacturing drawings - this is costly, both financially and in terms of time.
(4) See point 2 for advice on how to get exactly what you want, without having to make compromises.
(5) Finish most of your job in term 4/term 1 next year. Next year, other subjects take up time with their assessment tasks, study commitments and general stress. Term 4 is a quiet term where you can concentrate, knuckle down and actually achieve a fair bit.
(6) Remember, this job is meant to represent a 'reasonable' amount of work, not an inordinate amount that sucks up a lot of time from your other subjects. I don't mind students working on their project at lunch/after school, as it's a stress relief thing for them. However, if it demands every spare minute, it's cruelling your chances in the HSC. Remember the bigger picture.

Marking guidelines and requirements for the major project are on the Board of Studies website.
Pay attention to the markers' comments here:
http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/hsc_exams/hsc2009exams/notes/industrial-technology.html#major-project

and here:
http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/syllabus_hsc/pdf_doc/ind_tech_prac_markguide.pdf (your teacher should be able to explain them to you fully - note that this layout is what the markers are referring to in the above 2009 marking comments.)

Now, on to the workbench.

Firstly, you're keen to make it, it's something you want and you've got ownership of it. Great for motivation, great for ownership of the project and doing something that you love will ensure that you work well and consistently, as well as produce it to a high level of detail and quality as it's something that you are driven internally to produce. All perfect, and, as a teacher, what we try to inspire in our students.

In my opinion, however, you're setting yourself up for a great workout every lesson lumping things around and this will slow you up markedly in production. At a density of 1000kg/m^3, a workbench top, a'la Roubo, 2m long by 600mm wide by 100mm deep = 120kg. Add another 40kg for the chassis/subframe, and you've got to move this around yourself. It's OK if you're the front row forward for the first XV, but if you're the halfback, then it'd be a great strength training exercise. Expect to lose 30 minutes per practical session setting up and packing away, unless you can negotiate a permanent work area with your teacher. You'll cover the OH&S aspects of working in industry well here - you'll need a safe way to handle it without dropping it on your feet/hands or damaging your back.

If I was your teacher I'd be encouraging others to work on their projects consistently, rather than assist you for 20" to set up/pack up, and I'd be wondering where to store this project safely. Practically, I'd be looking at doing something smaller as, to be honest, there's not a lot of skill in building the bench, and it'd need to be built perfectly to score an acceptable result. It's essentially an oversized coffee table, just the same as a billiard table is an oversized coffee table with a felt top and rubber bumpers. THe vice screw is an extra skill that you could demonstrate you have, but you might want to consider making a more demanding project.

Having said this, there's nothing wrong with what you're proposing, (your ownership of the project is key,) but there's no way I'd spend $300 on a vice screw. I'd cut the screw thread here rather than import it. Your teacher should have a copy of Bootle - if s/he/you look in the back, you'll see that Crows Ash is recommended for cutting screw threads into as a local timber. Crow's Ash is an endangered tree now, and is a Flindersia (sp?) species, like the more common Silver Ash.

I bough a Carbatec 1.5" threading box, cut threads in Silver Ash and they worked well/cut cleanly/stayed intact over time.

As a suggestion, turn your thread out of a single piece of well seasoned 75mm or 100mm square blank. I thought that I'd be smart and save timber by turning the threaded shaft separately from a piece of 2" stock and glue the head of the vice screw onto the thread with epoxy and brass pinning the head onto the shaft. Poor move, glue delaminates after about a year due to differential shrinkage between timber species, and then the brass pins crush/destroy the shaft.

Doing this will demonstrate at least two additional skills you have to the markers, and not have you beholden to other people's manufacturing schedules. If you don't do this, then all you will show is that you can get wood square, cut a square shoulder and plane boards flat - level of difficulty??? Even if you do, then you have shown you can turn a cylinder and follow instructions on how to cut a thread.

You probably will want to consider using 20th century technology as well as the name of the subject is Industrial Technology, and focusses on how things are done outside of the classroom. I can see a rationale for doing things by hand in this scope, but you may want to consider broadening your scope.

Finally, my comments here are not perfectly couched (I considered deleting them but decided not to as you may want to hear this.) For that, I apologise, but I am very short of time at the moment.

Most importantly, I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, as enthusiasm is the key to success. Keep the fire going - the keenness, enthusiasm, drive, maturity and willingness to listen that you've shown are a great reflection on your work ethic and potential - I wish that I had as keen a class! I'm sure that you'll succeed in this subject because of your approach.

Don't change that or let anyone get in your way.

Cheers,

eddie

edit: Lighter timbers work well for the top - make it easier to see things/reflect more light.

[mic-d]

Hi,
I just used this tail vise screw (http://www.carbatec.com.au/carba-tec-tail-vise-screw_c7770) from carbatec to make my leg vise, but eddie raises a good point that if you make your own that shows other skills.
i made my bench over a couple of weeks I think. I used recycled oregon, but it is not the best choice for the top. you can see photos if you follow my link below.

Cheers
Michael


Michael
I was planning to import the vice leg from America... Home - Wood Vise Screw (http://www.lakeerietoolworks.com/) is it more practical to buy or make one,If you have any plans on how to make a vice leg that will be great.,The Roubo bench is bloody cool it just makes operations easier how long did you spend on making it? and did you use the thick hard maple 10cm top..etc.I was planning to use recycled ironbark and spotted gum i have a rough price referance from a recycling company A 200x50 recycled piece is $60 a metre
A 300x50 recycled piece is $97.40
Is this a reasonable price for spotted gum and ironbark??
Thanks for the advice mate:2tsup:
cheers lance

[teakman]

Eddie you are very helpful, thanks for providing me with such valuable info! i now have a great boost of motivation and a variety of whys i should approach this project.I will post pictures on my wip in a later stage.I really appreciate this
cheers lance

[ian]

Lance

reflecting on what Eddie posted, one way forward would be to research the project, but given the shear scale of a workbench, maybe you shouldn't build one. Rather concentrate on making accessories for the bench, things such as
bench dogs -- build one of each design and comment on their differences
the crochet
a leg vice -- comment on whether the leg vice can/should be combined with the crochet
a board jack
an end vice
a face vice -- look at Moxon -- for holding boards while they are dovetailed
the base for the bench -- to demonstrates joint construction

save construction of the top till after you've completed the HSC

[eddie the eagle]

HI Lance,

No problems at all. Good luck with your HSC.

I'm going to highlight some points from the essay above -> as a student in my class, I'd be encouraging you to increase the level of complexity of your project and not build something so large or heavy, as storage in my rooms is limited. Your bench would take up way too much room, and the junior classes would love to be the first to carve their initials in it if it was stored in the room.

Feel free to print out this thread and discuss it with your teacher (please!) Get their ownership before you go too far, or else you may be disappointed later.

In the end, you need to have a project that inspires and motivates you, and be your idea and not someone else's. It's a fine line we tread, as this project is the one you want to make.

Cheers,

eddie




Remember that really small projects also score well. Bigger is not better in the HSC. Quality of joinery, quality of design, quality of execution and quality of folio are the sellers that get you the result. Did I mention quality not quantity?

In my opinion, however, you're setting yourself up for a great workout every lesson lumping things around and this will slow you up markedly in production. At a density of 1000kg/m^3, a workbench top, a'la Roubo, 2m long by 600mm wide by 100mm deep = 120kg. Add another 40kg for the chassis/subframe,
and you've got to move this around yourself.
Expect to lose 30 minutes per practical session setting up and packing away, unless you can negotiate a permanent work area with your teacher.
you'll need a safe way to handle it without dropping it on your feet/hands or damaging your back.

If I was your teacher I'd be encouraging others to work on their projects consistently, rather than assist you for 20" to set up/pack up, and I'd be wondering where to store this project safely.
Practically, I'd be looking at doing something smaller as, to be honest, there's not a lot of skill in building the bench
, and it'd need to be built perfectly to score an acceptable result. edit: note I used 'acceptable,' not 'excellent' or 'outstanding'


It's essentially an oversized coffee table, just the same as a billiard table is an oversized coffee table with a felt top and rubber bumpers.
THe vice screw is an extra skill that you could demonstrate you have, but you might want to consider making a more demanding project.

[teakman]

Hi eddie
I fully understand your views i will take all the info to my teacher and go through the threads and plans with him on monday and see what his got to say.
Cheers
lance

[eddie the eagle]

Hi eddie
I fully understand your views i will take all the info to my teacher and go through the threads and plans with him on monday and see what his got to say.
Cheers
lance

Hi Lance,

No dramas - good luck with it all. You've got the enthusiasm which is key. If everyone's on board up front, then you'll succeed.

Keep it up.

Cheers,

eddie

[Powerb]

tl;dr

I've just finished my DT Major. I recommend sticking to your folio very strictly. Do not pick your project based on what you want. Figure out a design need and fix it. This will generally get you greater marks. Remember, the folio is just as important as the project!

Feel free to pm me for help.

[windbreaker]

Great choice of project.

Can I suggest, as a pragmatist, that I'm guessing you are 17 years old. When considering the height of the bench factor in that you may grow a little more in the next few years. If you are serious about woodwork, this will be a bench you will have for a lifetime and it would be a pain in the class if you ended up with a bench which was just too low for you in future years. Work this into your portfolio. every little bit helps.

Best of luck.

WB

[Travis Edwards]

Michael
I was planning to import the vice leg from America... Home - Wood Vise Screw (http://www.lakeerietoolworks.com/) is it more practical to buy or make one,If you have any plans on how to make a vice leg that will be great.,The Roubo bench is bloody cool it just makes operations easier how long did you spend on making it? and did you use the thick hard maple 10cm top..etc.I was planning to use recycled ironbark and spotted gum i have a rough price referance from a recycling company A 200x50 recycled piece is $60 a metre
A 300x50 recycled piece is $97.40
Is this a reasonable price for spotted gum and ironbark??
Thanks for the advice mate:2tsup:
cheers lance


that is a rip off I can get 240 by 45 dressed kd ash for about $18 a metre!!!

[artme]

So' where are you up to Teakman????

[teakman]

Finally got started :2tsup:
I'm currently laminating the massive top
II decided to use black butt...
will upload some photos of soon