The bowl gouge

[Nai84]

Hi All

I have another question the bowl gouge that he is using in this jet tool video YouTube - JET Tools - Lathe Projects - Turn A Plate - Part 1 of 2 has a different grind on it then mine what is it called and is it easier to use the a traditional gouge

Cheers Nai:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

[Rifleman1776]

The grind looks pretty standard to me. But, there are several types of grind and proponents for each. I suggest you watch as many videos on the subject as you can and read some books also.
This is one of those subjects where you will never find a consensus. You will have to try and decide for yourself which you prefer.

[Nai84]

Hi Rifleman

thanks for the tip i have turned any bowls yet still particing on little plates just to get the for it

Cheers Nai:2tsup::2tsup:

[Manuka Jock]

Nai ,
check out Stocksdale grind , Irish grind , Ellsworth grind , fingernail grind , etc grind .
Read up on them , try one if you know someone who has one , see what you think :)

[Nai84]

Hi manuka jock

Ok i will do that so many grinds to try i am excited cant wait but i will do some reading first thanks again

Cheers Nai:2tsup::2tsup:

[artme]

Pretty standard grind, perhaps a little more swept back on the wings.

[Dave50]

very interesting Nai, I have a lathe but as yet have not turned or attempted to turn a bowl, I will look into a chuck and give it a go!

just one thing is that screw type gizmo that he placed into the chuck an optional extra, if so what is it called

[RETIRED]

is that screw type gizmo that he placed into the chuck an optional extra, if so what is it called They generally come with the chuck.

[Manuka Jock]

very interesting Nai, I have a lathe but as yet have not turned or attempted to turn a bowl, I will look into a chuck and give it a go!

just one thing is that screw type gizmo that he placed into the chuck an optional extra, if so what is it called
One name for it is ' woodworm screw' .
Bear in mind that it is only for use at speeds up to about 600 rpm , and is only for turning a spigot/tenon or mortise for a multi jaw chuck .

[John Lucas]

That's Nick Cook in the video. Nick is a friend of mine and is a master of turning platters. I think he turned some ungodly number for a commission. Wish I could remember the number but when I heard it I thought it was impossible.
He uses a grind similar to an Ellsworth grind but as it gets sharpened as often as he does it probably changes a little as time goes by. That type of grind is very versatile. I'm always experimenting with different grinds trying to find out why some use one or another. I always end up coming back to that grind.

[Nai84]

One name for it is ' woodworm screw' .
Bear in mind that it is only for use at speeds up to about 600 rpm , and is only for turning a spigot/tenon or mortise for a multi jaw chuck .

Hi Dave50

What Manuka Jock said its only used at low rpms my chuck VM 100 recomends 100 to 800 rpms. I will show my bowl when i have finished if you show me yours ok

John Lucas the grind on his bowl gouge still looks very interesting do you know if you can buy them like that or do you have to grind it

Cheers Nai:2tsup::2tsup:

[robo hippy]

The grind is one variation of the swept back grind. There are a million different variations. The traditional grind is a 45 degree bevel, and a 45 degree sweep. I would call that sweep medium. Some will sweep it back a couple of inches. By sweeping it back, you lower the wing (flute edge) a bit. Mostly when you are roughing, you use more of the nose, and when you make the finish shear cuts, you are using more of the wing. The advantage here is that the nose may be getting a bit dull, and the wing will still be fresh. Some gouges come with that sweep, others come more traditional. You can easily change the grind. Therer are a number of jigs that can be used to get the grind, or it can be done freehand with a platform set at the proper angle on your grinder.

The interesting thing to me here is that he isn't rubbing the bevel as he cuts. This is often called a 'shear scrape' cut. I prefer to rub the bevel, and do my clean up cuts with a scraper at a shear angle.

robo hippy

[Chief Tiff]

The wood screw that came with my chuck is still in it's packaging, I haven't found a use for it yet. I might use it for holding goblet or vase blanks, anybody have any tips or suggestions?

Last year at a woodturning demo in WA a turner called Gorden Ward demonstrated the use of an MDF disc attached to a faceplate and covered with non-slip matting. He placed his jarrah blank (which was about 4" dia and 6" long) on the disc and then held it there firmly using the tailstock while he turned the mounting foot for the chuck.

He then popped the blank into the chuck and performed his demo; a hollow vessel. Once the turning was completed, he returned the vessel to the disc and turned off the chuck mounting foot so only a tiny spigot was left around the tailstock centre. This could then be pared off by hand.

I made the same item but I also use the edge of the disc as a power strop; coated with buffing compound it puts a polished razor edge on all my blades. Knives hone beautifully on this in just a few seconds!

[Manuka Jock]

I find the woodworm screw good for the initial mounting of really rough blanks ,
such as the outer/bark side of a natural edge bowl blank , or the ragged face of a firewood chunk .
Jamb chucking of blanks is ok if the face is reasonably flat and relatively round , but causes havoc with out of balance stock :U

[Ed Reiss]

That's Nick Cook in the video. Nick is a friend of mine and is a master of turning platters. I think he turned some ungodly number for a commission. Wish I could remember the number but when I heard it I thought it was impossible.
He uses a grind similar to an Ellsworth grind but as it gets sharpened as often as he does it probably changes a little as time goes by. That type of grind is very versatile. I'm always experimenting with different grinds trying to find out why some use one or another. I always end up coming back to that grind.

John...the number was 1100 in 3 months.

[stuffy]

John...the number was 1100 in 3 months.

:oo:

That's enough to send you loopy!
Just trying to break that down, you would need to turn 2 or more per hour and do nothing else for 13 weeks.
I have heard Nick is a very speedy turner, doesn't he hold some sort of record for turning egg cups or honey dippers or something?
After 1100 you would be getting quick at it.
:)

[Nai84]

WOW thats a lot 1100 hey i wonder that is in weight

Nai:2tsup:

[NeilS]

and is only for turning a spigot/tenon or mortise for a multi jaw chuck .

....and some of us will complete the outside of a bowl or platter while on the screw.

Each to their own...:U

......

[Manuka Jock]

....and some of us will complete the outside of a bowl or platter while on the screw.

Each to their own...:U

......
Have a crack at a large green winged chunk and see how far you get on the worm that turns :D

[Tiger]

I have watched that particular video as it came out on a dvd. Nick states that he is using an Ellsworth grind and he is complimentary about its ability to make a number of different cuts which helps him to speed up his production. I can't recall what sort of timber he uses in the clip but I reckon he produces his platter in about 10 mins. That's pretty impressive!

After seeing the clip, I gave the Ellsworth type grind a go, it's versatile but it does take some getting used to, especially on the inside of bowls and platters.

[robo hippy]

Done purely for speed, I can do a similar shallow bowl in under 5 minutes. When turning for an instructional video like this, 10 minutes would be probably right. In a production situation, I have averaged about 7 or so minutes for 10 bowls. I don't take the chuck off the lathe to remount the bowl. I use a forstner bit to drill a recess, so there is no screw to use and have to insert and remove from the chuck. I can turn it entirely with a scraper, or a gouge, or a combination of the two tools (my most common method). and the end result/quality is the same. I am turning with a 3 hp motor at speeds of 2000 plus, which for most turners would be considered insane (professional driver on closed course, DO NOT ATTEMPT). The point is that it can be done any number of ways, with any number of tools, you just have to find out what works best for you. I don't use my swept back gouges nearly as much as I used to. They are still swept back more than the standard gouge, and I prefer the heavy bowl scraper with a burnished burr for the final clean up cuts. I am, of course still experimenting. Probably won't stop experimenting till my birth certificate expires.

robo hippy

[Nai84]

Hi Robo

So a bowl scraper is a tool that you favour and a gouge what sort of gouge is that and what does a bowl scraper look like and where can i get one so i can give it a try
:U

Cheers Nai:2tsup:

[robo hippy]

Bowl scrapers are HSS bar stock, with a heavy one being 3/8 inch thick by 1 1/4 or so wide (roughly 1 by 3 cm I think). There are round nose, inside (grind swept back to the left), and outside (grind swept back to the right). Bevel angle is rather blunt, in the 70 to 80 degree range. They cut cleanest with a burr that is burnished onto the edge, but the burr from the grinder works great as well. I use a triangle burnisher that is commonly used for card scrapers (flat work tool), which do work better than the round bar burnishers. You can also buy a burnisher from Lee Valley/Veritas tools which is rather expensive. A few medium passes with the burnisher at 90 degrees to the top of the tool will do the trick. I do hone off the burr (3 by 8 inch coarse/220 diamond stone) before grinding and forming a new one. For roughing, have the tool flat on the tool rest doing a scraping cut. For finish/shear cuts, have the tool at a 45 degree angle, and take very light passes.

Size depends on your lathe. A tool as big as I describe can remove a lot of wood in a hurry, and a small lathe won't handle it very well. Tool is always held pointing slightly down hill. On the inside of the bowl, work slightly above center. On the outside of the bowl, work slightly below center. When turning the inside of a bowl, you have to take the rim down in stages. So, turn down an inch or so, then do finish shear cuts. Go down another inch or so, and repeat, blending in where you left off. If you have turned out the inside, and go back to the rim and do a scraping cut (tool flat on the tool rest), you will get a lot of vibration, and this can actually blow up the bowl. You can use your left hand as a steady rest on the outside of the bowl to reduce vibration, which you can also get when using a gouge. If you do, first round over the rim of the bowl as a sharp square edge can cut like a razor saw, and use very gentle pressure, only as much pressure as you are using with the tool. If your hand is getting hot, you are using too much pressure. I will do this often on smaller bowls, but never on larger bowls, as then larger size tends to increase tool/bowl rim vibrations/flexing.

When it comes to using scrapers, I am a minority. They used to be the go to tools for bowls because the bowl gouge didn't exist. I started playing around with them just to see how they worked, and found them to be better for general roughing of bowls when compared to a gouge. The primary cut we use for roughing is a scraping cut, gouge more on its side. What better tool to make a scraping cut than a scraper? It will leave a rougher surface than a gouge, but shear cutting will clean that up.

robo hippy

[NeilS]

Have a crack at a large green winged chunk and see how far you get on the worm that turns :D

Like this, Jock?...:D

146133

The woodworm was never going to hold that one on the lathe!

As you say, Jock, the mounting method needs to match the blank. For most blanks over 12" I tend to use a faceplate, although I have occasionally turned up to 20" platters on a centre screw. I find it just as quick to use a faceplate as it is to drill for the woodworm or to bore a recess for an expansion chuck. So it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. I rarely work with tailstock support, so that partly influences my decisions.

.....

[Manuka Jock]

Like this, Jock?...:D

146133

The woodworm was never going to hold that one on the lathe!

As you say, Jock, the mounting method needs to match the blank. For most blanks over 12" I tend to use a faceplate, although I have occasionally turned up to 20" platters on a centre screw. I find it just as quick to use a faceplate as it is to drill for the woodworm or to bore a recess for an expansion chuck. So it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. I rarely work with tailstock support, so that partly influences my decisions.

.....
That is one ugly lump of wood :U

[NeilS]

They used to be the go to tools for bowls because the bowl gouge didn't exist.

I can remember production turners using them when I was a kid (50+ yrs ago :B) before the advent or ready availability of bowl gouges. Seem to remember them having a slight positive rake on the top edge, but that might be the old grey matter playing tricks on me again...:U

.....

[Manuka Jock]

Fine Woodworking has this to say re. the development of dedicated bowl gouges
A Revolution in Turning Technology (http://www.finewoodworking.com/pages/w00132.asp)



Here in the United States, as far back as the 1940s, Bob Stocksdale had modified a gouge for bowl turning specifically. To the best of my knowledge, his use of the gouge predates that of any other turner.

Conventional tooling and wisdom had been dealt a mortal blow, and the bowl gouge was just the beginning. In the early 1960s, when Stocksdale met Jerry Glaser, an aerospace engineer and hobbyist woodturner, they set out to improve that gouge. The evolution of that tool, the Stocksdale gouge, led to new families of both spindle- and bowl-turning gouges.

Many improvements were made to the original bowl gouge. The handle got even longer, giving even greater leverage and control. The wide arc, or flute, at the bottom of the gouge was tightened to reduce its tendency to skate across the wood, and the ears or corner points were ground back to stop them from catching when the tool was angled against the work to produce a planing cut. This became known as a fingernail grind. Also, there was a revolution in tool steel, with high-carbon tool steel -- which took a sharp edge but couldn't hold it for long -- giving way to high-speed steel by the mid-1980s.

[Paul39]

I make bowls very much the way robo hippy does. My favorite scraper is made from a 12 X 2 X 3/8 inch high speed steel planer blade. I got 4 for $15 at an auction.

I sharpen it upside down with a curve on the front and use it right off the grinder for roughing the outside. I take off the burr with a fine diamond flat for the finishing cuts, taking off tissue paper thin slices. It is so heavy it does not vibrate much. I don't even have a handle on it yet.

Nai84,

You do not need to buy a bunch of gouges with various grinds. It is fine to have a go with a borrowed one to see how it feels, but again one needs several hours or days to really find how something works. If you find an inexpensive used or decent carbon steel gouge of the right size, you could put any of the grinds on it, use it for a while, then put another grind on it and try that.

There is a tendency to think that this or that gouge, scraper, special tool, golf club, camera, etc. will make one an expert in a matter of hours if not immediately. Manufacturers of these things do not discourage this thinking.

Professional turners who promote their own tools use this as part of their income. I do not know of many wealthy turners, every bit helps to keep the wolf away from the door.

Buying an Ellsworth gouge does not instantly make you as good as David Ellsworth.

In turning, golf, photography, and almost everything else, what matters is the tens, hundreds, and thousands of hours doing what we are trying to master is what makes us good.

If we start with a decent level of equipment, getting more expensive and or fashionable stuff only makes it more convenient or faster to do the same thing.

From what I have seen of your turnings, you are doing fine.

Do not be discouraged from experimenting. One does not NEED all the wondrous stuff to do good work.

Bob Stocksdale used almost nothing but a bowl gouge for his work. See:

bob stocksdale bowl - Google Search (http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=bob%20stocksdale%20bowl&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1126&bih=624)

[Tiger]

Done purely for speed, I can do a similar shallow bowl in under 5 minutes. When turning for an instructional video like this, 10 minutes would be probably right. In a production situation, I have averaged about 7 or so minutes for 10 bowls.
robo hippy

Robo,that's pretty impressive! Considering the time it takes me to shape, remove any tear-out etc. I think your effort is worthy of You-tube viewing.

[Nai84]

Hi robo

Thanks for that info it will help me in many ways to become a better turner thanks

Nai

Hi Paul39

Thankyou for your kind words about my work it makes me feel a little bit more conferdent in wood turning:B. Thanks for the info every litle bit helps the good and the not so good i know that having every tool will not make me a good turner its the hours and days that i put in that will make me or break me and finding out what works for me is the challange ahead but one that i am looking foward to. I love to turn :U:U I have attached some pics of a blank that i just got today i was wondering which way would be the best way to turn this into a bowl (this will be my frist ONE):2tsup::2tsup:

Cheers Nai

[RETIRED]

Mount a face plate on the "full" side.

Turn shape and make foot for holding in chuck.

Make sure chuck fits. Remove face plate.

Mount on chuck and turn bowl.

[Nai84]

Hi

Thanks for that i will do

Cheers Nai:2tsup:

[Paul39]

Pencil an X corner to corner.

Put a tiny nail in the crossing of the X.

Using a pencil and string draw a circle starting barely inside the shortest distance to the edge. Remove nail. Or a compass & pencil. Do both sides so you have a choice when mounting.

Saw off the corners outside the mark with whatever you have at hand. Hand saw, pruning saw, band saw.

Shortens dealing with interrupted cuts and removing that much material.

Mount as above per , using the nail hole and point on the tailstock to center the blank on the face plate. Mark and attach to face plate.

Use slowest speed on lathe to start. Stand to the right of the blank when cutting in case you have a bad catch on the interrupted cut and the blank comes out of the chuck.

When you start rounding the outside start at the line and cut toward the outside. Advance very slowly as the interruptions will be whacking the tool.

I'm eager to see your first bowl.

[Nai84]

Hi Paul39

I have done the above and i have the bowl on another post if you wish to have a look. I have another questuon when turning the inside of the bowl should i first start of at slow speed or high speed not only that my bowl felt like it had a wobble to it when i took it of the face plate and put it in the chuck why did it do this ?????

Cheers Nai:2tsup:

[Manuka Jock]

Nai ,
start off at a slower speed rather that a faster one .
As the irregularities , lumps , and bumps are taken off the blank , increase speed accordingly.
Stay within your safety zone .

The wobble could be caused by any one of a number of things.
.The wood itself has heavier and lighter areas in the blank.
..The spigot or recess was not formed properly .
...The blank is not seated correctly on the chuck
....The chuck and/or the faceplate are not seated correctly on the lathe .
.....The headstock center and the tailstock center do not line up exactly.
......The lathe is not standing firmly in the floor .
.......The floor is not level.

[Nai84]

Hi Manuka jock

Thanks for that info i think it ma be a comb of a few of thoes things you have listed now i think about i am gonna check a few things and i will let you know how i go with my findings:2tsup::2tsup:

Cheers Nai

[Paul39]

Nai84,

I looked at your bowl on the other thread, very nice, you are on your way.

As to the wobble, Manuka Jock has that pretty well covered. One might add that wood is not the same density everywhere. When the chuck grips, the wood under one jaw or jaws may compress more than under the opposite side and so throw the whole piece off center.

I am careful to get the face that is going against the front of the jaws flat, whether an inside or outside grip, and to make my angle cut for the jaws to grip a clean cut to the flat face.

Even with this care almost all of my bowls do not run true when turned around. It really doesn't matter if you are going to complete the bowl once it is chucked.

Also wood moves overnight or while you are cutting. I will rough out a presumed dry blank one day, leave it on the lathe, and the next day it is oval or one side hangs out.

I like to use the tail stock center as much as possible. I start most of my bowls by using a faceplate with a piece of Medium Density Fiberboard screwed to the front, which has had a skim cut to make it flat.

(Cheap dressers are made of MDF and can be found on trash day on the street.)

The flattest side of the blank is put against it and the tail stock center run up to the X and tightened to push the blank against the MDF.

I make my recess or spigot for the chuck to grab leaving a stub about 3/4 in. - 15mm that keeps the center mark.

I then turn around and chuck the blank, again using the tail stock center. If this is going to be the top of the bowl, I cut the outside ready for sanding, then rough cut the inside, pull the tail stock back and carefully cut down the spigot and finish the inside.

All below is with the lathe at at its slowest speed.

I then sand to 220, apply sanding sealer and quit for the day.

The next day I sand with 220 and wipe off and wet sand with 220 and tung oil, then with a piece of flannel apply tung oil until it is slick all over, quit for the day.

Next day wet sand with 400 grit and tung oil, apply tung oil with a piece of flannel and keep rubbing until the cloth begins to drag, quit for the day.

Next day buff with a hard piece of upholstery cloth, apply tung oil and rub until cloth drags, quit for the day.

Repeat until a soft sheen results. 5, 10, 15, coats, depends on the wood. Sometimes I take it out of the lathe while I do something else.

To finish the bottom I put a piece of soft cloth over the MDF on the face plate, set the rim of the bowl against it and put the tail stock center into the mark left on the stub. Pull cloth out a bit all around and trim off even with the edge of the MDF.

Turn off everything you are going to remove, sand, seal, finish; leaving the smallest bit of stub to keep it tight to the face plate.

Remove from lathe, place bottom up on a soft cloth with an old towel under for cushion on a flat board or workbench. With a pocket knife, skew chisel, Dremel tool with a burr, or any and all of the above remove the little stub, sand, seal, and finish.

The advantage of the tung oil, danish oil, or boiled linseed oil finish is if you ding it it can be repaired with a little wet sanding with 400 grit and finished with hand rubbing.

The disadvantage, as you see above, is that it takes forever and two days on softer woods. The hard Aussie woods may shine in 2 - 3 coats.

Another inexpensive way to hold a bowl for bottom finishing is to cut a groove in the MDF that will snugly fit the bowl rim. Use the tail stock until the very last, and be careful so that your 99% finished bowl does not go careening across the shed finding every sharp edge it can.

There are of course wonderful big chucks and jaws with soft buttons to quickly and conveniently hold your bowl by the rim.

I am retired with limited income and so work out all sorts of time consuming ways to save money.

There are many different ways to make a great bowl, and many people on this forum to help you. I do not know of a more generous group of people than on this forum.

I think you are ready for Turning Bowls by Richard Raffan, see:

Amazon.com: Turning Bowls with Richard Raffan (9781561585083): Richard Raffan: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Turning-Bowls-Richard-Raffan/dp/1561585084)

[Manuka Jock]

Nai ,
In addition to Paul's info re. the chuck jaws and soft wood ....
When mounting a piece into the jaws , I set the number 1 jaw to the top , and using a natural feature in the wood as an index tighten it up . I then mark that jaw on the spigot and also put a ' 1 ' on it .
That way if I have to revisit the piece onto the lathe it goes back into the correct position , just for good measure .

[Nai84]

Hi Paul39

Thanks,well that is amazing the work that you put into one bowl thanks for sharing the info it has been great i will let you know how my next bowl goes and what i find about the wobble. I agree with the kindness of the guys on the forum i have learnt so much in the last couple of weeks I should of joint earlier


Manuka jock

thanks for that bit of info that will go a long way

Cheers Ian:2tsup::2tsup:

P.S
Yous guys are awsome