The tamed skew

[Frank&Earnest]

Seems to me you shoulda done it quicker. :D:D:D Afterall, you were using tools made for the job.



Indeed. The full length toolrest accounts for the difference, I think.:D

[RETIRED]

Good, everybody kitted and ready to go!

Ern, it's true that I use a cutting presentation besides the scraping one, but I would have thougth that the acute corner (as you mentioned) and the triple bevel were much more important differences. :?

, your photos seem to show you using a hand steady. Does that mean that you forfeited the challenge? I never challenged time...:)In my case, time and finish is the only challenge.:wink:

[rsser]

(The flowers further Nth was what I was referring to Frank, though Quorn has its fair share and the Dutchman's Stern hill nearby was awash when we walked it this time last year).

[brendan stemp]

In my case, time and finish is the only challenge.:wink:

In that case the tool ain't for you. However.....

I had a good play with it yesterday and tried a variety of things. I really do quite like the tool. Rolled some beads, did some facing cuts, had a catch or two when I wasn't concentrating , tried redgum and radiata and so on. Easy tool to use, I thought. But surely the proof of the pudding is in giving the tool to someone with less tool proficiency than me. So before making my final evaluation I deliberately waited for a mate of mine to drop in for a visit, a mate who has done a bit of turning but is probably a prime candidate for this tool; ie one who is reluctant to pick up and use a skew chisel. True to form he did arrive yesterday and I promptly got a length of 2" sq pine and put on the lathe between centres. I gave him a little demonstration of the tool and then handed it over. He took to it like a duck to water. I watched as he took a few tentative cuts and then a little catch. A couple of more tips from me and then my phone rang. I spoke on the phone for about 10 minutes and when I got back to the lathe there was Billy with a big grin on his face and the whole length of pine turned into a series of beads. He loved the tool and without any prompting from me said "I'd much prefer using that to a skew chisel... much easier to use." He wants one!

And with that I rest my case for the affirmative. And would like to place an order for another tool for my mate Billy. Well done F&E. A tick from me.

My only question: why the long shaft? I cut about 100mm off the length and inserted another 100mm into the handle. So the shaft is about 125mm too long for my liking.

[RETIRED]

In that case the tool ain't for you. However.....We might agree on something.:D

Still playing with it at the moment and will reserve judgment until all avenues are pursued.

[tea lady]

, your photos seem to show you using a hand steady. Does that mean that you forfeited the challenge? I never challenged time...:):doh: WHY is there something wrong with a steady? :hmm: At least a hend steady doesn't cost anything! :rolleyes:

Another thing..... I was kinda wondering how the marketing goes for such a tool! :think: "Too dumb or scared to use a skew? Teacher too hopless to help? ..... Try New "Tamed Skew! " :banghead:

[Frank&Earnest]

In that case the tool ain't for you. However.....

I had a good play with it yesterday and tried a variety of things. I really do quite like the tool. Rolled some beads, did some facing cuts, had a catch or two when I wasn't concentrating , tried redgum and radiata and so on. Easy tool to use, I thought. But surely the proof of the pudding is in giving the tool to someone with less tool proficiency than me. So before making my final evaluation I deliberately waited for a mate of mine to drop in for a visit, a mate who has done a bit of turning but is probably a prime candidate for this tool; ie one who is reluctant to pick up and use a skew chisel. True to form he did arrive yesterday and I promptly got a length of 2" sq pine and put on the lathe between centres. I gave him a little demonstration of the tool and then handed it over. He took to it like a duck to water. I watched as he took a few tentative cuts and then a little catch. A couple of more tips from me and then my phone rang. I spoke on the phone for about 10 minutes and when I got back to the lathe there was Billy with a big grin on his face and the whole length of pine turned into a series of beads. He loved the tool and without any prompting from me said "I'd much prefer using that to a skew chisel... much easier to use." He wants one!

And with that I rest my case for the affirmative. And would like to place an order for another tool for my mate Billy. Well done F&E. A tick from me.

My only question: why the long shaft? I cut about 100mm off the length and inserted another 100mm into the handle. So the shaft is about 125mm too long for my liking.

Thanks Brendan. I read about the people who felt their first approach to woodturning was ruined at school because they just handed out scrapers: hopefully this tool can be a more effective way to provide a cheap introduction and see if any bloom will flower. Please PM how you want me to send the tool.

No great design thought went into the length of the tool. Given that it is good for scraping the bottom of deep vessels, I found this length to be effective for that purpose.
Furthermore, it can be used as a WMD in roughing, so an extra inch in the handle helps for that. Mainly, though, it was just easy to cut a 10 foot rod into 10 pieces. :D

Giving the users the ability to shorten it to their liking, as you did, seems to me to justify the extra dollar worth of metal. I was more concerned about ensuring that it was not too short.

[Frank&Earnest]

:doh: WHY is there something wrong with a steady? :hmm: At least a hend steady doesn't cost anything! :rolleyes:

Another thing..... I was kinda wondering how the marketing goes for such a tool! :think: "Too dumb or scared to use a skew? Teacher too hopless to help? ..... Try New "Tamed Skew! " :banghead:

Your turn to show magnanimity, Brendan.:D

[RETIRED]

What is a WMD?

[Frank&Earnest]

Weapon of Mass Destruction :)

[brendan stemp]

:doh: WHY is there something wrong with a steady? :hmm: At least a hend steady doesn't cost anything! :rolleyes:

Another thing..... I was kinda wondering how the marketing goes for such a tool! :think: "Too dumb or scared to use a skew? Teacher too hopless to help? ..... Try New "Tamed Skew! " :banghead:
You're absolutely right TL. This reminds me of the days when scroll chucks were first being sold to woodturners and the way they were marketed. Quite similar wording: "Too dumb and scared to make a jam chuck for your bowl. Is your teacher too hopeless to show you how? We have something for you... the Scroll Chuck" Yep I learnt to reverse a bowl and jamming the foot of the bowl into a wooden recess to turn the inside of it by none other than Richard Raffan and Vic Wood. I wonder if they are still using the jam chucks????

[Jim Carroll]

none other than Richard Raffan and Vic Wood. I wonder if they are still using the jam chucks????


Ironically they still do as there is still a time and place for everthing

[brendan stemp]

Ironically they still do as there is still a time and place for everthing

OK Mr Nitpicker, perhaps I should've said I wonder if they have stooped so low as to use a scroll chuck. I'm sure you know the point I'm making.

[tea lady]

OK Mr Nitpicker, perhaps I should've said I wonder if they have stooped so low as to use a scroll chuck. I'm sure you know the point I'm making.I think you are drawing a long bow there comparing this tool to a scroll chuck. Scroll chucks obviously saved time and effort for professional and amateur alike. Not so sure this tool quite does that. :doh:

[Frank&Earnest]

Time probably not. Effort almost certainly yes. I would have thought this is already clear.

[tea lady]

Time probably not. Effort almost certainly yes. I would have thought this is already clear.I have seen the tool in action you know.:C Not clear Frank!

[Frank&Earnest]

Even assuming that you have seen it used for a short time and it was not very effective for what it was doing, this does not change the fact that learning to use one tool that does not need sharpening takes a lot less money and effort than learning to use and sharpen correctly a skew, a scraper, a roughing gouge, a spindle gouge and a bowl gouge. And use a cheap steady.:wink: Time is not of the essence for a hobbyist, the results are. The issue we are discussing here is whether the results are good enough to provide reasonable satisfaction while deciding whether it is worth spending the extra money and effort to achieve the highest level of results that one's ability allows.

Thank you for candidly expressing your mistrust, anyway. I assume you have no vested interest in supporting the sale of traditional tools, so, unless you have been bribed :), you genuinely represent the conservative view that keeps progress honest.

I value the opportunity for discussion that you provide.

[jimbur]

..We might agree on something.:D

Still playing with it at the moment and will reserve judgment until all avenues are pursued.
And turned every corner:U

[Sturdee]

Another thing..... I was kinda wondering how the marketing goes for such a tool! :think: "Too dumb or scared to use a skew? Teacher too hopless to help? ..... Try New "Tamed Skew! " :banghead:

and


I think you are drawing a long bow there comparing this tool to a scroll chuck. Scroll chucks obviously saved time and effort for professional and amateur alike. Not so sure this tool quite does that. :doh:

Or maybe along the lines of the way that Robert Sorby markets their spindlemaster which is another alternative to the skew that a lot of turners use.


From their website :

Taming the skew is perhaps the most common of problems encountered by the woodturner. The digs-ins which ensue from incorrect presentation cause many turners to avoid using the skew chisels and consequently reduce their skills and limit their opportunities of turning between centres. The new Spindlemaster does away with this problem. Its design is flat on one surface, and oval on the other makes dig-ins a thing of the past. It is easy to use for even the least experienced turner. In addition to doing the regular planing job of the skew chisel, the Spindlemaster will also cut both beads and coves with the greatest ease. Because of its design - the wood is almost polished and so it gives a fine finish every time. That is a particular advantage when working on soft woods like pine which normally leaves a very coarse finish.
The Spindlemaster is ideal for small projects like boxes and rattles, and works just as effectively on large pieces like bedposts and staircase spindles. If you have reservations about using a skew chisel, the Spindlemaster is the answer.

Frank how do you think yours compares to the spindlemaster?


Peter.

[Sturdee]

He loved the tool and without any prompting from me said "I'd much prefer using that to a skew chisel... much easier to use." He wants one!

And with that I rest my case for the affirmative. And would like to place an order for another tool for my mate Billy. Well done F&E. A tick from me.



Thanks Brendan, that's the kind of test that I'm looking for.


Peter.

[Jim Carroll]

Peter the Spindle master still has a polished bevel that rubs, and you can work around the radius of the tip., But not the top as like all skews it wants to run away, although not as bad as a normal skew.

[tea lady]

Thank you for candidly expressing your mistrust, anyway. I assume you have no vested interest in supporting the sale of traditional tools, so, unless you have been bribed :), you genuinely represent the conservative view that keeps progress honest.

I value the opportunity for discussion that you provide. I'm representing the conservative view? :doh: I'm only saying what I think. Not speaking for anyone else. :shrug:


Anyway, I'm off to do something more productive. :rolleyes:

[Frank&Earnest]

and



Or maybe along the lines of the way that Robert Sorby markets their spindlemaster which is another alternative to the skew that a lot of turners use.



Frank how do you think yours compares to the spindlemaster?


Peter.

Thanks for the reference, Peter, I had absolutely no knowledge of that tool. I just watched a youtube demo and now I know what it is. The way I see it the spindlemaster is really a flat spindle gouge that can be used on the side because the wing is straight instead of curved (clear as mud?). Up to a point (no pun intended) the mechanics are similar to using the corner of the square cutter in the same way. Excluding the issue of sharpening v non-sharpening, I think that the main difference would be in the square v round profile. One works better than the other depending on the profile of the curve you want to produce. The problem with the square three sided blade is that it is not practical unless an insert is used.

Edited to add, after seeing Jim's comment: another main difference, of course, is the angle of the bevel(s). I could not tell from the video, but I would assume that the spindlemaster sharpening angle is like a skew's.

[Sturdee]

I could not tell from the video, but I would assume that the spindlemaster sharpening angle is like a skew's.

Frank from Sorby's website "The Spindlemaster is one of the easiest tools to sharpen. Simply hone on the top face. Do not touch the polished bevel – unless it has been damaged. " and this set of instructions (http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/pdf/spindlemaster.pdf).

The more I look at this and my bedan and your tool I feel that they all overcome some of the difficulties the skew gives in the hands of the inexperienced turner.

Whilst these tools will help to get you started it will become necessary to become proficient with the skew. I am getting better but nowhere as proficient as others.

However if by using an alternative a newbie can do some useful turning whilst regularly practising getting experience with a skew on practice bits he will not get disillusioned and give up.

Hence Brendan's comments about his mate is really relevant. Looking forward to the further reviews.


Peter.

[Frank&Earnest]

Peter, those instructions puzzle me. It is true that sharpening one side is equivalent to sharpening the other, but the end result has to be that a good edge with no rounding is achieved. If it is the flat side of the spindlemaster that is sharpened, that means that the flat side has to be lowered to the point where the rounding of the edge has been eliminated. This means that after a couple of dozen sharpening the bottom bevel is gone. Where am I going wrong here?

[rsser]

IIRC you're only sposed to hone the top face. Say a wear bevel gets to one thou before you 'run out of edge', you need to take the top down at least that much with each honing. Would take some time to hone through to the bottom of the bevel.

Cheers from Burra

[Jim Carroll]

The bottom radius is a polished bevel and the top is flat and honed with a very fine diamond lap. The bottom can be polished on a strop or a stiched mop on your grinding wheel.

So to lose the bottom bevel would take a very long time.

[Frank&Earnest]

Thanks Ern and Jim.

Ignoring the fine distinctions between sharpening, honing and polishing, in essence the duration depends on how quickly an edge gets round and how often metal has to be taken out to reform the edge. Touching up the bevel as well, as you say Jim, makes more sense to me.

The logic here seems to be the same as for carving chisels. Take out less more often so as not to ruin the precise profile. Reasonable for the slow carving work, but with turning it seems to me that the amount of time spent away from the lathe for polishing could become rather tiresome. I haven't sucked it, though, so I haven't seen. :)

BTW, if I understand correctly, "one thou" means 1/1000 inch, 25um. If that is enough to blunt a blade, a tool would stay "sharp" for a very short time indeed. Have any reliable tests been done of this?

[Sturdee]

Frank,

It's the same sharpening method as for a few other Sorby tools eg their captive ring tool and their easy beader but let's not hijack this into a sharpening thread.:D

I haven't tried their Spindle Master as yet but it's another way of handling the dreaded skew in inexperienced hands. Maybe those that use one would care to comment.

All these various tools reminds me that the skew is the turners plane similar to a No 4 Stanley for flat woodworking. But let's not forget that Stanley brought out lots of different planes so why not different types of planing tools. Something for the purists to think about.:)


Peter.

[Sturdee]

At 's invitation I had a tryout of F & E's new tool. purposely did not talk to me about it so he could not influence me prior to my tests and the tool was unhandled.

Using redgum blanks I first roughed a blank to round, then cut V shapes and rolled beads. The roughed down finish was not as smooth as my roughing gouge produces but acceptable. The V cuts were not as deep as with the skew and the beads were not as smooth as with a skew. Because of the shape I could not roll very acute beads.

I had some dig ins with the tool and because of the shaft shape it had a tendency to twist over and dig in on the side to side cutting movement. This is because the acute trapezoidal shape means the side edges are not supported directly by the tool rest.

I then used it to hollow out an edge grain box. Again I had to fight the tendency to twist on the side way movements and had quite a bit of chatter. Inside side finish was acceptable but would require a fair bit of sanding.

I then repeated the same tests using my Bedan tool holding it the same way.

On each test the finish was smoother and easier to use. With the Bedan the side cutting edge is more acute which means that the side cutting edge is still sufficiently supported by the tool rest so that instead of fighting to keep the tool level all I had to do was guide it.

Upon reflection I feel that as a beginner's tool the Bedan would be better as it is easier to use and gives a smoother surface (and can be sharpened) whilst learning to use the skew.


Peter.

[RETIRED]

This thread is being continued here. http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/road-test-fetool-125029/