Shooting board plane advice.

[Too Many Clamps]

Hi,

For years I've been using a flat-sided 608 with a square-ground blade on a shooting board. I feel the heft of the plane helps get a smooth cut. But there's no really comfortable way to hold it, and I'm not about to drill holes into it to mount a handle.

I've been looking a getting a dedicate shooting plane like the LN iron miter plane, or maybe even one of the Stanley 51's they have just released. Although, at USD$500, I think I'll ultimately chicken out at that price.

Which is more comfortable to use? In theory, the skewed blade in the 51 should cut through end grain easier and cleaner?

Thanks

[pjr]

For years I've been using a flat-sided 608 with a square-ground blade on a shooting board. I feel the heft of the plane helps get a smooth cut. But there's no really comfortable way to hold it, and I'm not about to drill holes into it to mount a handle.


I know it's not answering your actual question but could you make a more comfortable hand hold for it? That would at least make an improvement without permanent damage and you can use that while you decide what next to do.
Somebody made one version a while back. maybe Derek? yeah, here it is...
Building the Hotdog Mk II for the LV LA Jack (http://tinyurl.com/6acert)
or in the long form:
Building the Hotdog Mk II for the LV LA Jack (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Building%20the%20Hotdog%20Mk%20II%20for%20the%20LV%20LA%20Jack%20pics.html)

[Too Many Clamps]

PJR,

That's not a bad idea at all. Not just the hotdog, but the plane as well. Those bevel up planes are fairly cheap too. Well, compared to the iron miter or 51 they are.

They sides look rather narrow. What's stability like? I'm guessing the sides are ground square, unlike their LA jointer. I'd be interested to hear from anyone using a LA jack as a shooting plane, especially if they have changed to either a miter or 51.

[derekcohen]

Hi PJR

I would not advise using a #8 as a shooter - it has great heft, which as you note is very helpful - but it is just too long for comfortable use. A shooting plane does not need to be long - in fact length has no part to play as the referencing is done by the sidewall of the shooting board.

The BU planes are excellent shooters because the can keep the cutting angle low. You could build a BD plane to do the same (that is, with a low bed).

There are a bunch of planes in this article for consideration: Setting Up and Using a Shooting Board (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4.html)

The other thought, if you want to keep using the #8, is buy the hotdog from LN. They have one for the #9 and their LA Jack, and this should fit your #8.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mr Brush]

If you don't want a hulking great plane for shooting, one of these Veritas low angle BU smoothers is great:

Veritas® Low Angle Smoothing Plane : CARBA-TEC (http://www.carbatec.com.au/veritas-low-angle-smoothing-plane_c6930)

Coincidentally, I'll be listing one for sale on here shortly.....:D:D

Since getting a BU Jack Plane I hardly use the smaller BU plane for anything, so PM me if you're interested.

[Too Many Clamps]

Derek,

You're a bit late telling me the 8 is a too long to use as a shooter. I've been using mine on a shooting board since my Dad gave it to me when I apprenticed with him in 73.

Now that my hands are often stiff with arthritis, an alternative grip is in order. I haven't used a hotdog before. Do you feel you can maintain correct pressure with it? It seems a bit too outboard and slightly higher than I'm used too.

I had a read of your article, and note that you made your own hotdog and shooting boards. Good for you. It never ceases to amaze me why a woodworker would by anything made of wood. I mean, HELLO.

Thanks

[derekcohen]

Hi PMC

The heft of the #8 is good but its length (24") can detract. It just depends on the size of the bench you have, whether there is sufficient room for the toe - after all, you still slide the mouth (of the #8) as much distance as that of a shorter plane.

The hotdog handle is really ideal on a BU plane. It would sit above the blade and allow you similtaneously to push forward and laterally. On a #8 there is a problem - the frog lies in the way. You would have to build a modified hotdog to fit.

Where do you hold the #8 for use on the shooting board? That is a good question to start.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

Here is a site worth looking at. Skew MIter (http://www.phillyplanes.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20&Itemid=21)

http://www.phillyplanes.co.uk/images/stories/content_images/skewm.jpg

Timber - Goncalo Alves
Pitch - 38 degrees, 20 degree skew
Irons - 50mm wide, 6mm thick O1
Price - £195.00

Philly makes a skew mitre plane that gets rave reviews. I would look at this as a model for building my own version.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Too Many Clamps]

Hi PMC


Who's PMC? Is this some site netiquette stuff?

[derekcohen]

PMC? Did I really type that? :oo: I meant to type "TMC" - short for Too Many Clamps. :)

:U

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Too Many Clamps]

The heft of the #8 is good but its length (24") can detract. It just depends on the size of the bench you have, whether there is sufficient room for the toe - after all, you still slide the mouth (of the #8) as much distance as that of a shorter plane.

For me, it's the length of the toe that makes an #8 one of the best shooting planes. If it had a lower angle, or a skewed blade, (and a handle) it would be perfect. No other plane allows the toe to remain registered against the workpiece while the stroke is started. Granted, you need a few inches more room for the toe past the fence. Just another good reason to keep your bench free of clutter and shun tool trays. I've always made my shooting boards long enough behind the fence to keep the plane fully supported at all times - if there's room for the shooting board, there's room for the plane.

I've done most of my woodworking with just 3 planes for surface preparation; the 608, an unbranded German-style 9 1/2" long wooden smoother, and record 0120 block plane. Up until recently, I've had no need, or desire to buy more tools. My son bought me some Lee Nelson chisels for Father's day a few years back and I haven't used them yet- they're just too pretty. Besides, my red plastic handled Stanleys have plenty of life left.

[derekcohen]

Hi TMC

It really sounds to me that you do not want a new plane, but need to find a way of using the #608 more comfortably.

The ideal may just be a variation of the Record shooting plane, which is simply a #5 with a knob screwed through the rounded area of the plane's cheek.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4_html_m74c34e47.gif

Of course I do not think that you want to drill a hole, so what I had in mind was a U-clamp, screwed on from the inside of the plane, with the knob attached to the clamp (if any of that makes sense).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Too Many Clamps]

It really sounds to me that you do not want a new plane, but need to find a way of using the #608 more comfortably.

Of course I do not think that you want to drill a hole, so what I had in mind was a U-clamp, screwed on from the inside of the plane, with the knob attached to the clamp (if any of that makes sense).


It's just old age setting in. Some days my hands are just too bloody stiff with arthritis to curl my fingers around the sides of the plane. Which, since you asked, I hold directly above the mouth, and push with my palm. It's the most natural place to drive it from, and the least tiring.

What I think I'll do is buy the Veritas bevel up Jack and drill a hole in that for a screw in knob. I'll make a hotdog and try that first. There's no way I'd do that to the plane Dad gave me now he's no longer with us. Other than that, they're just tools. If modifying them makes them suit our way of working, all the better.

[ian]

It's just old age setting in. Some days my hands are just too bloody stiff with arthritis to curl my fingers around the sides of the plane. Which, since you asked, I hold directly above the mouth, and push with my palm. It's the most natural place to drive it from, and the least tiring.

What I think I'll do is buy the Veritas bevel up Jack and drill a hole in that for a screw in knob. I'll make a hotdog and try that first. There's no way I'd do that to the plane Dad gave me now he's no longer with us. Other than that, they're just tools. If modifying them makes them suit our way of working, all the better.personally I prefer the #9.
I've got one of the LNs and, besides the shooting board, the plane comes in handy for cleaning up dovetails and drawer sides.

[pjr]

Hi PJR
I would not advise using a #8 as a shooter - it has great heft, which as you note is very helpful - but it is just too long for comfortable use.

hi Derek, that wasn't me :-)
I've not tried my #8 on a shooting board and didn't advise it. I was just suggesting the OP might try a hotdog hold while working out what to do as a permanent solution, though the hotdog may just be exactly that.

[derekcohen]

Hi Peter

I know. I was having a bad day with names! :) Or rather acronyms, pseudonyms, and initials.

It is so much easier - and more intimate - when someone uses a real name.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Too Many Clamps]

personally I prefer the #9.
I've got one of the LNs and, besides the shooting board, the plane comes in handy for cleaning up dovetails and drawer sides.

Hello Ian,

Don't you mean the shooting board comes in handy, or are you also using the #9 freehand?

Derek,

Too Many Clamps is my real name. Why do you ask, Two Dogs?

The more I look at the hotdog you put on your low angle plane, the more I think you are on a winner there. Have you tried to make a thinner version?

Getting back to the 608 as a shooter, the only real limitation I've encountered with it was the high (45deg) cutting angle, especially when shooting softwoods. I was somewhat disappointed to find the Lee Nelson #9 is effectively bedded at 45deg too, which is why I had some interest in the skew-bladed #51. Although it's probably too late for me to want to change to a canted rear-handled grip.

BTW. That wooden skew plane you linked to earlier is seriously ugly.


Thanks kindly for the input.

Mr Brush,

Thanks for the link to Carbon-Tech's webshop. I've just placed an order for the Veritas low angle jack plane. My first new plane this century!

Thanks all

[derekcohen]

The more I look at the hotdog you put on your low angle plane, the more I think you are on a winner there. Have you tried to make a thinner version?


Hi TMC

The LN version is thinner. I find it too narrow for my grip, but that is a personal thing. My hand is considered broad by one sawmaker (who made up a custom saw handle for me), but I think it average (100mm across the widest part of the palm). The size I built feels solid and comfortable.

One word of warning about building a hotdog - use the hardest wood you can. The LN is machined out of aluminium. It is surprising the amount of wood flex that can be induced by a set screw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Vann]

I've just placed an order for the Veritas low angle jack plane. My first new plane this century!

Good luck with that. I love my Veritas LAJ, but I've found I don't like it on the shooting board (I'm very new to shooting boards). Maybe I'm gripping it too tightly, but I find the lever-cap shifts in my grip. A hotdog or side handle (as on the Record T5) may overcome this, but I also note the side 'wings' on the LAJ are not very wide, which make slight tipping easier.


Too Many Clamps is my real name. Why do you ask, Two Dogs?Not Mr Smoke Too Much then....:U

Cheers, Vann

[ian]

Hello Ian,

Don't you mean the shooting board comes in handy, or are you also using the #9 freehand?I'm not sure what you mean by freehand TMC, but I do use the plane without a shooting board.
Last time was to trim some dovetails flush with the sides of a drawer and then to gently narrow the end of the drawer so it would be square in it's opening.

It works like a big block plane and the long nose helps to keep things aligned

[GraemeCook]

Derek,

Too Many Clamps is my real name. Why do you ask, Two Dogs?




Good Morning Derek

I am suspicious.

If TMC had said his real name was Not Enough Clamps or even Almost Enough Clamps then he would have been more credible.

Cheers

Graeme

[Too Many Clamps]

Derek,

I was planing to use some leftover ebony sandwiched around some 5mm brass plate. Because of the brass plates, I'll turn up the hotdog first, then slice it in half, epoxy the lot back together, and insert some hidden brass pins from the underside.

Vann,

Lighten up on the death grip, and use light cuts. The shooting motion has more in common with sawing, in that the arm must track true. Therefore you must adopt a sawing stance. Also, you will struggle to learn good technique if your bench is too high.

Ian,

That's exactly what I meant by freehand. Sounds perfectly legitimate to me, although some purists might disagree. I shoot draw parts before dovetailing, then gauge the exact thickness of the draw side onto the draw back, and vise versa. This way, there is nothing sticking out that needs cleaning up, but mainly because you have better control over drawer dimensions without having to allow a poofteenth here and a poofteenth there.

[Too Many Clamps]

If TMC had said his real name was Not Enough Clamps or even Almost Enough Clamps then he would have been more credible.

I've had a bit of a peek through just the handtool blog here. Some of you guys spend a small fortune on shinny tools, nah, make that a large fortune. I understand wanting to collect and own nice things and hope nobody thinks the skill is in the tool.

If your shelves are stuffed full of shinny new tools, you probably don't have enough clamps.

Perhaps I should change my user id to, Too Many Clamps But Only One Smoother.

[GazPal]

Perhaps I should change my user id to, Too Many Clamps But Only One Smoother.

That'd do it. :U

You could definitely either sandwich two sections of brass plate or sandwich one section of channelled brass/aluminium plate between turned ebony cheeks with fixing pins/grub screws fitted, but would the rounded hot dog profile necessarily suit your grip? I'm a long term Rheumatoid Arthritis sufferer and find an angled and broader pistol / saw handle grip more comfortable for chuting as it prevents my fingers and hand from cramping. Food for thought. :wink:

[ian]

Ian,

That's exactly what I meant by freehand. Sounds perfectly legitimate to me, although some purists might disagree.TMC
there's a school of thought that goes -- mitre planes are also incredibly useful for frame and panel work -- to smooth rails/styles to match each other
I shoot draw parts before dovetailing, then gauge the exact thickness of the draw side onto the draw back, and vise versa. This way, there is nothing sticking out that needs cleaning up, but mainly because you have better control over drawer dimensions without having to allow a poofteenth here and a poofteenth there.that's how I try to do it, but I always seem to have either the pins or the tails protruding just a bit.
also, the last drawer I built had a curved front -- curved fronts are a real challenge to cut 1/2 blind DTs in -- and required a slight adjustment so that it would sit square and straight in its opening.
hence the need to champher the sides.

[Too Many Clamps]

I'm a long term Rheumatoid Arthritis sufferer and find an angled and broader pistol / saw handle grip more comfortable for chuting as it prevents my fingers and hand from cramping. Food for thought. :wink:

Sounds like wise words to me. My occupational therapist tried to get me to use a pistol-handled knife - it was a cooking class. Damn near cut off my left hand!

I wish someone would motorize my shooting board. I bet the mythbusters could knock something up in an arvo.
http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[GazPal]

Sounds like wise words to me. My occupational therapist tried to get me to use a pistol-handled knife - it was a cooking class. Damn near cut off my left hand!

I wish someone would motorize my shooting board. I bet the mythbusters could knock something up in an arvo.
http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Those Zorro-like moves with the Chef's knife just don't work like they used to. :o :D Especially when they replace normal straight grips for nifty "ergonomic" ones.

I've always hated plastic grips and handles as they seldom conform to your grip in the way wooden ones can after they've worn in or been through a quick re-hash via judicious sanding/trimming, so have always replaced them with timber ones I've made to fit my hands. Form definitely follows function and certain handles have taken on very wierd forms as the arthritis has progressed, but at least nobody in their right mind would ever want to pinch or deliberately borrow my tools.

I wish someone would motorise my tool boxes or invent a toolmaking medium that equates to the weight of polystyrene, but with edge holding qualities capable of making NASA scientists jealous.:2tsup: Auto-pilot would do too. :D