Ugly as sin, but

[orraloon]

Hello all,
Well at last I got around to an attempt at cutting teeth on my first saw. I will be the first to admit the results are rather ugly. All set to file off and start again but found it actually cuts quite well. I used a paper template to cut the teeth spacing but found the paper hides any errors untill too late to correct the spacing. I intend to do the teeth again but will let it wait it's first sharpen. The rest of the build went quite well even my home made saw nuts. The handle (cherry by the way) still needs a few more coats of oil to finish. A few pics to show whats what.
Regards
John

[Tink]

This saw making caper is new to me. Where do you get the materials from? Are there any web tutorials or info available?

[xjapan]

Rather than lay out the teeth with paper, maybe you can build a jig that would hold the blade and then ratchet the blade along by a set distance, then you can have a guide to hold your file and cut a small notch just so you have the position. Once you have little notches all the way along you're then free to put the teeth in by hand. Just a thought. The saw would then have perfectly spaced teeth, but it'd still end up with a hand finished feel to it.

[Tink]

I have seen an improvised dividing head using a section of old bandsaw blade wrapped around a circular former. You could use an old hacksaw blade as a reference guide.

[orraloon]

Tink,
The materials were organised by RayG as a bulk purchase last year. He also organised split nuts for the handle although I made my own. Have a look at the message at the top of the hand tools page on split nuts as that was part of it. You never know Ray may have a few bits left. He is the guy to ask for pointers on saw making. There is quite a bit of info on the net and a few makers that sell kits also. Google saw making for starters.
Some guys have made saws from floor scraper blades. Other sources of spring steel are old saws or those cheep hard point saws can be cut up and reborn.
Regards
John

[IanW]

Hi John - it's a steep learning curve, and getting teeth that cut well enough on a first try is a good start.

Practice is all it takes, so after a few more, you will be able to cut teeth that are close enough to fool most eyes. I start tooth-forming by making a fine notch over each line with a diamond needle file, which doesn't catch & skate as easily as the metal files. When filing to depth, keep an eye on the flats between the teeth, and try to keep them even. It's very easy to move a tooth forward or back a bit by putting a bit of extra pressure in the direction you want to go. I find it best to go back & forth, giving one or two strokes of the file per gullet - don't try to cut too much of any one tooth at once. And a good tip I got from RayG is to run a blue or black marking pen over the top of the blade - that improves contrast between the freshly-filed gullets & the remaining flats.

Sometimes, despite all care, a couple of teeth will get out of whack - that usually doesn't affect the quality of cut as much as you might think. BUt if it annoys you, filing a third to half the tooth line off, & careful reforming usually fixes them.

Using an existing blade as a template is a fairly easy way to go, too. It's the only way I can get a really good set of 18 tpi fangs. I clamp an 18 tpi hacksaw blade against the blank so that about 1/2 the tooth of the hacksaw is above the top of the blank. I go over it a couple of times with the diamond file to make a notch, then ditch the 'template' & finish by eye (hacksaw blades have the wrong rake for a wood saw, so you don't want to copy the whole tooth profile, just the spacing). And I always use my guide-stick to keep the rake-angle constant.

I made some pretty scrappy sets of teeth on my first few tries, & it took me about a dozen sets of teeth (I had several tries on some of the smaller-toothed saws!) before I felt confident enough to let others see them. However, it gets a lot easier with repetition - I toothed this set I'm currently working on, (they range from 10 tpi down to 18) in a couple of hours, yesterday. The bolts & nuts are all made (another afternoon's work) so now comes the real fun - shaping & finishing 5 handles......

Cheers,

PS - I'm intrigued by the etch - how have you done that??

[orraloon]

Hi Ian,
Lovely set of saws there by the way.
The etch is done with a rubber stamp and rust converter. Old rust converter that has setteled a bit as I just use the liquid off the top and not that milkey gunk. Bit of a fiddle as too much blotches and in this case only just enough. Some of my trial bits came out bolder. Phosphoric acid in the converter is the stuff that does it so some other acids would most likley do the same job. If you stuff up it can be wiped off with a cloth dipped in the converter (in the first minute or so) then a wipe with soapy water.
As to teeth I will experement with a few things before the next saw. Where do you get the diamond files? I like the idea of those.
Regards
John

[IanW]

Hi Ian,
Lovely set of saws there by the way.
The etch is done with a rubber stamp and rust converter.


So you just wet the stamp with the acid, & apply it to the metal?? That sounds too easy!

The saws have a ways to go yet - shaping, finishing & fitting a handle takes me a couple of hours, it's the biggest job in making a saw. Don't think I could make a living at this game! :U I got these ready because I have quite a bit of exam marking coming up, and I like to slip down the shed every few hours for a half hour or so of mindless activity to clear the neurons a bit. Shaping handles fills the bill very nicely...

This lot is an experiment, btw, it's the first time I've tried Qld Walnut for handles. I have no idea why I decided to make a whole matching set - there was this sudden rush of blood to the head, and next thing I knew I was cutting out a bunch of handles. However, I'm pretty certain it will scrub up well. If not, well, there are other woods that I know of......



.... Where do you get the diamond files? I like the idea of those.


John, I'm pretty certain I got them from here:

Needle Files (http://www.precisiondiamondtools.com.au/category114_1.htm)

I got them with the idea they would be the bees' knees for sharpening very fine-toothed saws, but they were not. You need a very coarse grit to cut quickly enough that you don't lose interest in the whole process, and that doesn't leave a very nice surface on your tooth. However, I discovered the medium grit is very handy for marking out. I have done quite a few saws with it, & it's holding up ok. I was worried the intense pressure on a corner would break the grit out of the binder, but so far it sems to be holding up.

I thought I had wrecked it when doing one of the smaller saws - it started cutting very slowly near the end. The reason turned out to be because there was a really, really, hard spot in the metal. Not sure how that could happen - I'm sure it was the original edge, so it was nothing I did to it. Anyway, the hardness was just a few thou deep, but it sure took the lustre off a conventional file when I started filing the teeth to depth - it was a brand new file, too! :~

Cheers,

[RayG]

Hi John,

Congratulations of your first saw, don't know about the ugly bit (in the thread title, that is) it looks pretty good to me.

The choice of cherry is a good one, and it looks like you are well on the way to mastering the dark art of handle making.

I like the etch! very nice.

Filing teeth is something that comes with practice, practice, practice after a while it will just click.. about the only advice I can give is if you find the teeth getting a bit uneven, then you can actually "push" the teeth back or forward a little by a little pressure back or forward so that you file more of the back or front of the tooth. Also after setting, re-joint, and re-sharpen. Light touch is important.

If you have any unevenness in the set, it will show up in a test cut, just lightly stone the side the saw cuts toward. Usually one light pass with a hard block wrapped in 400 wet and dry is all it takes.

I use a hacksaw blade as a template for filing the initial starting points, I did use paper templates for a while but found a hacksaw gave better results.

Congratulations again, nice work.

Regards
Ray

EDIT:
I just noticed Ian's attempt to sneak in another batch of saws in with a drive by batch of 5....

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f152/152394d1289171864t-ugly-sin-but-qld-walnut-set-roughed-out.jpg

What caught my eye was the roughly shaped handles, most un-Ian like, then
I realised... these are all NEW saws...

Ian, you are surpassing yourself, that's a beautiful looking set of saws.
Can't wait to see the finished versions.

Regards
Ray

[IanW]

....EDIT:
I just noticed Ian's attempt to sneak in another batch of saws in with a drive by batch of 5....

What caught my eye was the roughly shaped handles, most un-Ian like, then
I realised... these are all NEW saws...


Can't sneak anything by you, Ray.....

Yep, the batch is very much 'under construction' - a good 3 or 4 hours work to go on each handle, yet, then the spines have to be cleaned up & polished - they are only roughly chamfered at the moment, then the final sharpen, fit & test-drive. As I said, I don't really know why I decided to do a whole 'set', except I need some busy-work projects for the next few weeks, and these are something I can pick up for half an hour at a time when I need a break. They may or may not get finished this side of Christmas.

Two things I have noticed about the 'batch' saw plate you got from the US - a) It is exquisitely susceptible to rusting - you have to be so careful with it. Wonder why that is - is it just the high polish? Fortunately, slathering a dose of paste wax (U-Beaut, of course! :U) on them & polishing it off seems to protect them nicely, & makes them nicer to use.

And b) There were those very hard spots on the edges of two bits I mentioned above. I'm as sure as I can be that these were 'factory' edges, and not edges I'd cut, but I may have mixed them up. If they were edges I'd cut, I can see how it's possible that the disc caused local heating enough to re-harden a small area. Anyway, the harness was very superficial, so the teeth are fine, but it sure wrecked the corner of the file breaking through the hard 'crust'.

In all other respects it's nice stuff to work with, & looks a treat when polished up with some 1200 wet & dry. That shim stock we started out with took a LOT more effort to polish to that standard.

Be warned, John, and all the others out there who were part of the saw material batch order - this has got to be the most addictive tool-making enterprise of all (& I've been bitten by a few other bugs before this!). It's just not possible to stop at 1, or 2, or 3....... :C

'Tis a lot of fun, though!
Cheers,

[lightwood]

Hello all,
Well at last I got around to an attempt at cutting teeth on my first saw. I will be the first to admit the results are rather ugly. All set to file off and start again but found it actually cuts quite well. I used a paper template to cut the teeth spacing but found the paper hides any errors until too late to correct the spacing. I intend to do the teeth again but will let it wait it's first sharpen. The rest of the build went quite well even my home made saw nuts. The handle (cherry by the way) still needs a few more coats of oil to finish. A few pics to show whats what.
Regards
John
John,
Here is a way I have used to lay out the teeth.
With the paper template wrapped on the saw, I use a small sharp cold chisel stuck sharply with a hammer and it leave a nice notch to start the file. The ink pattern I use seems to harden the paper a little and the chisel located just nicely. This sample I have pictured is 16 tpi.
I back up the saw plate with a steel bar under the blade on the vise. The curved gullet was with a traditional saw file, and the sharper gullet was with a jewelers needle file.
Regards,
Peter

[IanW]

Peter - thanks for that tip - seems like a good way to get the initial notch laid out accurately.

I've been wanting to get some decent needle files for my finer saws. Tried one lot but was bitterly disapppointed with the quality - like mild steel! Can you recommend a good brand & source?

Cheers,

[lightwood]

Peter - thanks for that tip - seems like a good way to get the initial notch laid out accurately.

I've been wanting to get some decent needle files for my finer saws. Tried one lot but was bitterly disapppointed with the quality - like mild steel! Can you recommend a good brand & source?

Cheers,
Ian,
I've used Vallorbe, Grobert - Swiss for 30+ years in jewellery making, and just pick up the almost worn out ones and use them on saws.
I buy them locally at AJS (http://www.jewellerssupplies.com.au/images/stories/PDFs/Tools_Equipment_2010/063_067_Files_2010.pdf), Koodak (http://www.koodak.com.au/main.php) or toolworld-mce. (http://www.toolworld-mce.com/products.aspx?catid=19)
All of them are in the same building at 125 Swanston St Melbourne.
I think RayG gets them from a bloke on eBay...?? Ray???
Regards,
Peter

[RayG]

Ian,
I've used Vallorbe, Grobert - Swiss for 30+ years in jewellery making, and just pick up the almost worn out ones and use them on saws.
I buy them locally at AJS (http://www.jewellerssupplies.com.au/images/stories/PDFs/Tools_Equipment_2010/063_067_Files_2010.pdf), Koodak (http://www.koodak.com.au/main.php) or toolworld-mce. (http://www.toolworld-mce.com/products.aspx?catid=19)
All of them are in the same building at 125 Swanston St Melbourne.
I think RayG gets them from a bloke on eBay...?? Ray???
Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

I just got a gross of vallorbe round back sawblades from Koodak, (much better than the Zona blades I've been using!) didn't buy any files, but they do have the swiss pattern needle files I use in stock.

The ebay seller is this guy.. eBay Australia Shop - SWISS TOOLS AND MORE: Triangular, Hand Flat, Wood Rasps (http://stores.ebay.com.au/SWISS-TOOLS-AND-MORE)

Sometimes he doesn't have them in stock, also, now that I know you can get them from Jewelry supplies (thanks Peter!) it would be worthwhile to compare the pricing.

The other supplier for saw files is Lie Nielsen (http://www.lie-nielsen.com.au/catalog.php?grp=1351), they have a good range of larger files but not the swiss pattern needle files.

Regards
Ray

[IanW]

Thanks, Peter & Ray. Not used to having a selection - larger files come in one cut only, but I'm thinking it would be good to have a coarser cut for tooth-forming, and a finer one for final sharpening? Does either of you have any advice on that?

I see there is an AJS in Brisbane, so maybe I should just go & look at some files & decide which cut or different cuts I'd like to try.

Apologies to Orraloon for the partial hijack, but you will want to make small teeth some day..... :U

Cheers,

[orraloon]

Thanks everyone for the advice and pointers. The encouragement also. Plenty to ponder on.
I had been sharpening my saws for many years but only down to 10 tpi. This small teeth is a bit of a chalenge and I think I was not properly tooled up or skilled up either. I will have a go at some scrap steel and try out some of your tips and tricks.
As for addiction well No2 is almost ready for teeth.
Regards
John

[IanW]

Well, if you have been sharpening for a while, you must have a pretty good idea of where you are going. I reckon # 2 will be a big advance on #1. Doing them in quick succession helps you to improve quickly, I found.

Good luck, & it's good to see a few others being bitten by the bug, I don't feel so bad...
:U
Cheers,

[Pops]

Hi Orraloon,

Top job I reckon and I like the cherry handle shape too. The etch is a great touch.

Still haven't tackled my first saw yet but it seems that once I do it will be the start of a slippery slope to saw making addiction. :)

Cheers
Pops