What glues, paint to use

[blue3.3]

This is my first wooden boat I had a ply boat given to me and its in poor condition I need to know a few things to get started on the repairs
what glue to join sheets of ply
what glue if any to glue and screw sheets back on frame
what paint to finish hull
this is to be a repair not a retoration Im just after a usable boat for the river so im tring to keep the costs down your help would be appreciated

[Boatmik]

Sounds like you are commited to doing it on the cheap. Epoxy is the best glue, but it will push the cost up. If much of the boat needs replacing and it is a complex boat then it can sometimes be cheaper building from scratch. If the boat is simple and not much needs replacing then it can be fine. What sort of boat is it before we get to far? Photos help too. So we can see what needs doing and won't lead you up a blind alley. Best wishes Michael Storer

[blue3.3]

As you can see the boat is of a simple design the picture of the inside makes it look worse than it is mostly its the paint peeling of the old varish and the middle bench seat but on the bottom left hand side it has a hole and two soft spots so i thought I'd replace that half of the hull and sand back the rest and repaint I know this will not be cheap but at this stage i dont want to get carried away. The boat is 12ft long and 5ft at its widest I have no idea what the boat is so if you know tell me I'd love to have a name for it thanks for your help

[andrew allan]

Replacing half of the hull sounds a horribly involved job! :no:

What about just bogging up the hole with epoxy, and for the soft bits , just cut them out and scarf in some plywood sections to fit, and then reinforce with tape.

It'll be a cute boat. I reckon that if you were to start replacing large sections, you'll just end up with a project which goes on forever (and eventually ends up on the hard rubbish collection), and you'll never get out on the river!

A

[blue3.3]

Having not done it before i didnt think it would be all that hard its only one piece unscrew it and use it as a template for the new piece its not glued so it shouldnt be to hard to get off I hope

[andrew allan]

Yep - the concept of removing it, and cutting a newey to shape and screwing it back in is fine...............but.........generally the biggest bit of ply you can get is 8'x4', so you would need to scarf join two bits to get the length, before you even get around to cutting the new bit.

Beyond this, and in relation to glues, I recall a saying from John Welsford's book about stitch and glue boat building, that went something like the following - "there is nothing that can't be repaired on a wooden boat with epoxy".

For paints - there is quite a good article on the net comparing paint types - google "painting a wooden boat". Basically house paint will do the job on this sort of job.

[PAR]

I'll second the idea of not biting into more then you can chew. You look to have a neat little powerboat with a few small holes, isolated rot and damage. You don't need nor is it desirable to remove whole sections of boat, just to fix a few bits of damage or rot.

The hole in the port side bottom for example, could be easily repaired with a clump of thickened goo, maybe some fabric or milled fibers to bridge the gap and a temporary backing plate, so it's smooth when it cures.

The famous last words
i didnt think it would be all that hard its only one piece unscrew it said by many who wished they'd not opened the can of worms and just enjoyed the boat instead.

In other words, don't make more work for yourself, replacing the bottom panel(s) isn't easy and you'll cuss like a sailor in short order. Slather "wood butcher's friend" in the holes and paint her up pretty. You have lots to do without making things harder.

[blue3.3]

Thanks for the advise it is all appreciated I now have a bit better idea of what is ahead of me Im not sure that is a good thing but there it is i'll now start gathering materials what kind of epoxy should i use to fill the hole or is that fibreglass resin? and when talking about tape, fabric, milled fibres is that fibreglass matting? I have some experience with fibreglass so Im hoping thats what we are talking about but if not i'll figure that out as I go

[Darce]

Fibreglass is the cloth that gets impregnated by a resin. Polyester and Epoxy resin are two of the many resins which may be used and both have their pros and cons. It can be bought as a chopped strand (cheapest), or woven mat. It is also available as tape of various widths. The thickness of material is described as a weight, e.g 8oz, 16oz and the thicker the material the greater amount of resin is needed to fully impregnate the fibres.

Polyester is much cheaper and is often used for glassing larger objects, even now a lot of hulls are made using polyester resin. Some of its shortcomings (for us) is amine blush (a waxy deposit which forms on the cured surface) and a limited ability to adhere to other surfaces.

Epoxy, while more expensive, overcomes those limitations and is the usual choice for repairs. It will adhere to polyester, while poly just peels off expoxy. Some epoxys do suffer from amine blush but not as severely. It may be thickened using various powders such as talc, silica, wood flour, micro ballons or even common flour.

It's well worth your while heading down to the local library and getting out a book or two on small boat repair, most libraries have something decent on the subject.

[blue3.3]

Darce thanks for your post that has cleared up quite a bit it is some times forgotten that when you are starting out it can be the simplest things that are the most confusing thanks for making it clear

[andrew allan]

The other point worth making is that the "epoxy" referred to is not that which one buys from Bunnings etc, as in Araldite, or the generic versions thereof.

Get your epoxy from a marine shop. There seem to be various brands around. I'm sure that some are meant to work better than others, but it probably gets a bit academic. West System is well advertised. Epiglass is another. You can also get your fivberglass tape/matting there too. Mix it in cheap chinese food containers, using syringes to ensure the correct proportions are used, and wear gloves (and a mask when sanding it), as epoxy is extremely irritant to some people's skin and airways.

[PAR]

I'm not sure which brand is the less costly down there (BoteCoat?) but maybe Mik can help out there.

Use epoxy, polyester has no place on this boat, because it's wood.

Because you'll be using epoxy, you also have no need for mat or chopped mat fabrics, just used woven or knitted cloth types.

Log onto Epoxy by the Leading Epoxy Manufacturer | WEST SYSTEM Epoxy (http://www.westsystem.com) and Welcome to System Three.com - Epoxy Resin Products - System Three Resins, Inc. (http://www.systemthree.com) and down load their users guides and manuals (free stuff). These will help you tremendously in sorting out the many products, techniques, materials, fillers, and stuff you'll want to know. Lastly log onto Mik's site FAQ - Boat Building and Repair Methods - Plywood Epoxy Fibreglass Cedar Strip - Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans (http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/faqindex) and read up on how to play with goo.

[blue3.3]

thanks for the links there is a lot of reading to be done thanks again

[Boatmik]

I'm not sure which brand is the less costly down there (BoteCoat?) but maybe Mik can help out there.

Use epoxy, polyester has no place on this boat, because it's wood.

Because you'll be using epoxy, you also have no need for mat or chopped mat fabrics, just used woven or knitted cloth types.

Log onto Epoxy by the Leading Epoxy Manufacturer | WEST SYSTEM Epoxy (http://www.westsystem.com) and Welcome to System Three.com - Epoxy Resin Products - System Three Resins, Inc. (http://www.systemthree.com) and down load their users guides and manuals (free stuff). These will help you tremendously in sorting out the many products, techniques, materials, fillers, and stuff you'll want to know. Lastly log onto Mik's site FAQ - Boat Building and Repair Methods - Plywood Epoxy Fibreglass Cedar Strip - Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans (http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/faqindex) and read up on how to play with goo.

Howdy,

There are not any/many cheap epoxies in Australia and I've seen two lots of testing results from a few years back of a wide range of epoxy brands done by the University of Queensland.

?The upshot was that you get what you pay for. The cheap epoxies were so much worse than the market leaders that I wouldn't touch them. The cheaper ones you are paying a good part of quality epoxy prices for a much inferior product

If paying substantially less then WEST, Bot Cote, System 3 and others around that price range then it is very likely an inferior product.

There are some tests you can do yourself. If the epoxy smell of thinners when you open the container, then they have "extended" it - the only smell should be a slight to moderate ammonia smell. The mixing ratios will be around either 2:1 or around 5:1 - one to one mixes are very poor chemistry except for a new 1:1 epoxy from System 3 (one of the big players that does substantial research). The packaging should call the epoxy "high solids". It is best if you add your own powder for thickening, though I've been told some of the major manufacturers have some OK products in that regard (I'd still mix it myself as I can tailor the amount of powder to the situation

Another way of locating good brands is to find out what people are using - you will find the main brands are well represented here, but if a brand is cheap and just a couple of people have heard of it, then it possibly is not that good

Other areas can give different brand names. For example kit aircraft builders probably have a higher need for quality than most boatbuilders, so if they have a main brand that a lot are using then you can trust it too.

Anyway, epoxy is miles cheaper than marine paint!

Best wishes

Michael Storer

[Boatmik]

Fibreglass is the cloth that gets impregnated by a resin. Polyester and Epoxy resin are two of the many resins which may be used and both have their pros and cons. It can be bought as a chopped strand (cheapest), or woven mat. It is also available as tape of various widths. The thickness of material is described as a weight, e.g 8oz, 16oz and the thicker the material the greater amount of resin is needed to fully impregnate the fibres.

Polyester is much cheaper and is often used for glassing larger objects, even now a lot of hulls are made using polyester resin. Some of its shortcomings (for us) is amine blush (a waxy deposit which forms on the cured surface) and a limited ability to adhere to other surfaces.

Epoxy, while more expensive, overcomes those limitations and is the usual choice for repairs. It will adhere to polyester, while poly just peels off expoxy. Some epoxys do suffer from amine blush but not as severely. It may be thickened using various powders such as talc, silica, wood flour, micro ballons or even common flour.

It's well worth your while heading down to the local library and getting out a book or two on small boat repair, most libraries have something decent on the subject.

There is a downloadable book from WEST - a good bit of marketing, but a great book applicable to any of the other brands.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/howto-pub2/Wooden%20Boat%20Restoration%20and%20Repair.pdf

Best wishes

Michael Storer

[Boatmik]

Fibreglass is the cloth that gets impregnated by a resin. Polyester and Epoxy resin are two of the many resins which may be used and both have their pros and cons. It can be bought as a chopped strand (cheapest), or woven mat. It is also available as tape of various widths. The thickness of material is described as a weight, e.g 8oz, 16oz and the thicker the material the greater amount of resin is needed to fully impregnate the fibres.

Polyester is much cheaper and is often used for glassing larger objects, even now a lot of hulls are made using polyester resin. Some of its shortcomings (for us) is amine blush (a waxy deposit which forms on the cured surface) and a limited ability to adhere to other surfaces.

Epoxy, while more expensive, overcomes those limitations and is the usual choice for repairs. It will adhere to polyester, while poly just peels off expoxy. Some epoxys do suffer from amine blush but not as severely. It may be thickened using various powders such as talc, silica, wood flour, micro ballons or even common flour.

It's well worth your while heading down to the local library and getting out a book or two on small boat repair, most libraries have something decent on the subject.

Great briefing by Darce!

He is right about chop strand matt (CSM) being the cheapest. Woven cloth is much better for wooden boat repairs - it gives a smoother finish and much higher strength. The CSM looks terrible and some brands fall apart or fizz when the epoxy hits them as the CSM is designed to be perfectly compatible with polyester resin, whereas woven cloths are compatible with everything.

MIK

[PAR]

So, Mik, why aren't you reformulating epoxy for your fellow countrymen? I've considered it here, but I'm able to get epoxy at $30 a gallon locally and $40 a gallon at wholesale, naturally both prices with quantity, so it's not cost effective for me, as I'd be able to make my own batches for about $20 a gallon.

My point is, if you're paying in the $80 to $100 per gallon range, then you can reduce this to $20 (formulation costs) and sell at $40 for a reasonable profit and help your national brothers with low cost, but good quality goo.

What's everyone say about this? Lets take up a cause, to force Mik into saving his country from high epoxy prices. Reformulation isn't especially hard and you can formulate specifically for Australian conditions. When I was researching this prospect, I found I could make my own goo for about half of the wholesale price and if I sold retail at 3:1 profit margin, I'd still under cut the major "players" by at least 25%, which is enough to kick a dent in their "market share". What do you say? "Mikpoxy", maybe "MikGoo" or possibly "Sticky Mikie".

[blue3.3]

I think a link to this West System downloadable book should be made a sticky even if you dont use the product it is a great referance book making the advice already given much clearer thanks to boatmik for the link

[Boatmik]

So, Mik, why aren't you reformulating epoxy for your fellow countrymen? I've considered it here, but I'm able to get epoxy at $30 a gallon locally and $40 a gallon at wholesale, naturally both prices with quantity, so it's not cost effective for me, as I'd be able to make my own batches for about $20 a gallon.

My point is, if you're paying in the $80 to $100 per gallon range, then you can reduce this to $20 (formulation costs) and sell at $40 for a reasonable profit and help your national brothers with low cost, but good quality goo.

What's everyone say about this? Lets take up a cause, to force Mik into saving his country from high epoxy prices. Reformulation isn't especially hard and you can formulate specifically for Australian conditions. When I was researching this prospect, I found I could make my own goo for about half of the wholesale price and if I sold retail at 3:1 profit margin, I'd still under cut the major "players" by at least 25%, which is enough to kick a dent in their "market share". What do you say? "Mikpoxy", maybe "MikGoo" or possibly "Sticky Mikie".

I appreciate the thought Paul, however "stickie mickie" is more a description of me during a big glue up job.

I've been involved in epoxy sales (no longer) and backup for long enough that I know it is not so straightforward and that quality control is a right pain, even for the major players.

Distribution, outlets etc etc etc.

I try to get by with one bag and a mini laptop (writing on it now).

I will leave the epoxy game to hardier players than me. Particularly those who have some permanent workspace!

MIK