3 phase plugs

[Stustoys]

Anyone have a list of the different sizes of 3 phase plug and sockets used in Australia? I need some 5 pin ones for my inverter and I had always thought there was only one size with different bumps and flats. I was wrong.

I plan on using the 5th pin as the control for the inverter.

Stuart

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[markjaffa]

Check out this document - http://updates.clipsal.com/ClipsalOnline/Files/Brochures/W0000791.pdf

Brand specific obviously, but I have never come across any that havent fit other brands of sockets/outlets. I am sure someone will correct me on that! :)

[eskimo]

not sure you scan do that..i think it might be illegal
5 pin...3 for Phases , 1 for Neutral and 1 for Earth

[Stustoys]

eskimo If it was to be part of the fixed wiring and meet code, I dont think it couldnt be done (i'm not sure that it couldnt be done), but it isn't so I can do what I like.
The neutral pin will be use as the common for the FWD/REV of the inverter. If someone was to plug in a plug that needed to use the neutral pin, they wouldnt be able to turn the inverter on. Well you could change the settings on the inverter to make the on/off button on the inverter itself work.

Stuart

[NCArcher]

Wont you have to alter the fixed wiring (socket outlet) to change the function of the 5th pin.
It's ok if it is designated a special purpose outlet and is modified to prevent anything else from being plugged into it. You may endanger your inverter as well. The neutral is an active conductor and if your machine is plugged into another outlet you may get 240V directly onto a control input. Not good, as they are usually volt free or ELV.

Which control function do you want to operate from the plug? Maybe we can work out a better way to do it.
If I have totally misunderstood your intent then ignore this post and carry on. :doh: :U

[Stustoys]

Just to add info. The inverter is 240V single phase to 415V 3 phase.

The socket in question will be wired to the inverter, The inverter is them plugged into at 240V socket. So the fixed wiring wont be altered.

"The neutral is an active conductor and if your machine is plugged into another outlet you may get 240V directly onto a control input." Wouldn't that mean if the socket was wired correctly the machine would have two neutrals? That would be a bad thing anyway.

The reason for using the 5th pin as control is so when I unplug the shaper and plug in my drill the control functions are switched to the machine that is pluged in. I could wire all three machine in parallel and it would work fine, but that would mean that you could turn the drill on and off from the shaper...... not so good. (it would also have the same "output with no load" possabilty as the next idea.

I could achieve the same result with two plugs next to each other. One for the 3 phase and one for the control wire, pretty ugly and it would be possible to unplug the 3 phase line and still have the controls working, the inverter doesn't like not having a load.

What I have ATM is a 4 pole double throw switch and switches the 3 phases and the control wire between the shaper and the mill. I could go to a 4 pole triple throw switch if I could find one, but going to a socket on one side of the switch would mean that if I got another 3 phase machine I wouldn't need a 4 pole 4 throw switch.

Close Mark but they don't have the Dia of the actual business end of the plug and socket :(

Stuart

[Vernonv]

"The neutral is an active conductor and if your machine is plugged into another outlet you may get 240V directly onto a control input." Wouldn't that mean if the socket was wired correctly the machine would have two neutrals? I'm not sure what you mean by that. The 5th pin is always the neutral and a five pin plug only has one neutral. I think what NCArcher is getting at is that there could be voltage present on the 5th pin of a normal outlet and if you (or someone who doesn't know what you've done) plugs your machine into that normal outlet, dangerous voltages could be present on your "control" wire and anything connected to it.



I could achieve the same result with two plugs next to each other. One for the 3 phase and one for the control wire, pretty ugly and it would be possible to unplug the 3 phase line and still have the controls working, the inverter doesn't like not having a load.Cable tie the control lead to the 3 phase lead and keep it short enough that the control lead has to be disconnected prior to disconnecting the 3 phase lead.

[Stustoys]

I missread NCArchers post.
There isnt a normal outlet to plug into.
If someone moves one of my machines, they would have to disconnect all the extra control wiring anyway.

Maybe the double plug idea isnt so bad, but I still need the plug sizes as I have a socket and two plugs that dont fit. So I either need to buy two new plugs that fit the socket ot a new socket to fit the plugs.

Stuart

[.RC.]

What voltage does the control for the inverter run at?

If it is low voltage then use a low voltage connector like these Jaycar Electronics - Search results (http://www.jaycar.com.au/productResults.asp?CATID=32&SUBCATID=641&keyform=CAT&SUBMIT.x=26&SUBMIT.y=10) for the control wire

[.RC.]

Maybe the double plug idea isnt so bad, but I still need the plug sizes



I have a 10 amp 415V socket on my TC grinder but a 20amp plug will not fit into that BUT a 10 amp plug will fit a 20 amp socket...

Don't have any 32 amp plugs so don't know about them..

Also there are other older plugs and sockets out there like 15 amp, but I think they are the new 20 amp...

[Vernonv]

If someone moves one of my machines, they would have to disconnect all the extra control wiring anyway.But if the machine has a normal 3 phase plug on it's lead, what would stop them from just plugging it into a normal 3 phase outlet?


...but I still need the plug sizes Try here (http://www.clipsal.com.au/trade/__data/page/81/I50.pdf)page 50

[Stustoys]

Yeah RC the 10 and 20 amp plugs at the same DIA but one has a pin the other has a flat. So one will go in both and the other will only go in one. If I read the clipsal pdf correctly over 32amps goes up in DIA. From memory the control runs 12V but it could be 28V.

Vernonv There isnt a "normal" socket here to plug it into. Unless someone moved the shaper, mill, drill and inverter as one unit, the wiring would have to be disconnected. (this will change going to two plugs)

Seems clipsal already make a plug and socket to fit my needs. But I'm sure I don't want to pay for it. Thanks for the link on sizes.
Two plugs will neaten the control wiring up, so I might go with that.

Ok guys for a bonus point I want to run a 24VAC hour meter from a 32VAC supply. What do I need?


Stuart

[Polie]

Ok guys for a bonus point I want to run a 24VAC hour meter from a 32VAC supply. What do I need?

24VAC:roflmao:

Sorry Stu, I couldn't resist

Chris

[Stustoys]

24VAC:roflmao:

Sorry Stu, I couldn't resist

Chris
Well I have them already, its what to do with the other 8V thats the problem :p

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Well I have them already, its what to do with the other 8V thats the problem :p

Tell them to go and play outside?

Can't find a transformer lying around somewhere to go from 240 or 415 down to 24V? Pretty sure the one in my mill has a 24V tap on it (as well as 110V)...

[Dave J]

By the sounds of it, I don't think Stuart is worried about "what if" someone plugs in something latter as he is keeping the gear and it's only to suit him in his shed.

Dave

[ian]

Stuart
dredging my memory from over 35 years ago, 3 phase comes in two "flavours" star and delta
one uses three active wires, the other three active plus a neutral
I don't remember which is which
I do remember that HV transmission wires are 3 active, but the LV street circuits are 3 active + neutral.

Do you know if your machines use 3 active + earth, or 3 active + neutral + earth ?
It could make a difference to your wiring

[Stustoys]

Jekyll and Hyde I might have one, but I have a doz or so 32V ones and all the control relays(contactors if you prefer) are 32V and I have about a wheelbarrow full of them. I had thought of using some 6 pole contactors and forgetting about the plugs.

The mill has 12V 24V and 110V but I'm working on the inverter controls for the shaper and drill. I could just use an on/off switch and may still do but I would like to be able to add things like hour meters :)

DaveJ Spot on

ian All my stuff is 415V 3 phase (i.e. it goes phase to phase no neutral), my inverter can't do 240V 3 phase and none of my motors would run properly on it.

Stuart

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Jekyll and Hyde I might have one, but I have a doz or so 32V ones and all the control relays(contactors if you prefer) are 32V and I have about a wheelbarrow full of them. I had thought of using some 6 pole contactors and forgetting about the plugs.

The mill has 12V 24V and 110V but I'm working on the inverter controls for the shaper and drill. I could just use an on/off switch and may still do but I would like to be able to add things like hour meters :)

Stuart

Doh. I just figured out what you're trying to do - you want the hour meter to run off a 32v feed through one of the 5 pins of the 3 phase plug, along with all the contactors etc. Do they make 6 pin 3 phase plugs? LOL.

I wonder whether such a thing as a 32v to 24v transformer exists? Put one on each machine...

[ian]

ian All my stuff is 415V 3 phase (i.e. it goes phase to phase no neutral), my inverter can't do 240V 3 phase and none of my motors would run properly on it.

StuartStuart, you're right 3 phase (240V on each) delivers 415 volts when combined.
Where I'm hazy is how the 3 phases are wired into a motor -- I recall a wiring diagram that used 3 actives + neutral and another diagram that just used 3 actives.
What I don't recall is the situations where the two different wiring schemas were used and the relative advantages/disadvantages of each
what I was trying to caution was that due to the two wiring schema a 4th wire might not be an earth

[Stustoys]

Sort of Jekyll and Hyde. The 32V will run all the control circuits and hour meter/meters of the shaper and the drill. These circuits which would switch the 5th wire (the inverter control) on and off.

They make 5 pin + 2 control sockets and plugs, but I hate to think what they would cost.

As I only want to power an hour meter I'm guessing a resistor will do that job. It may even run just fine on 32V but I don't feel like finding out. Just like my LED lights might run fine on 24VAC when they say 24VDC, I don't feel like finding that out either for the cost of a bridge rectifier.

Stuart

[Stustoys]

ian
There is no fourth wire on any of my machines, 3 phases and earth.
star/delta depending on the motor is either used so you can have a dual voltage motor or so that you can have a soft start motor.

Stuart

[ian]

thanks

[Vernonv]

By the sounds of it, I don't think Stuart is worried about "what if" someone plugs in something latter as he is keeping the gear and it's only to suit him in his shed.Yes he doesn't appear worried and he has made that clear (and it looks like it's a non-issue now anyway), however I was making the "safety" point because sometimes things happen that are out of our control.

[eskimo]

By the sounds of it, I don't think Stuart is worried about "what if" someone plugs in something latter as he is keeping the gear and it's only to suit him in his shed.

Dave

that may be so...but what about when Stuart has left and gone to the big metal workshop in the sky ....he wont be around when it goes to a new owner, and that new owner and not knowing anything as to what has been done may just plug it in to some real voltage thinking its OK to do so

Also, I think you will find that the codes do not just relate to so-called fixed wiring.....the wiring rules cover wiring of machinery, airconditioning units, toasters etc etc...

[Stustoys]

that may be so...but what about when Stuart has left and gone to the big metal workshop in the sky ....he wont be around when it goes to a new owner, and that new owner and not knowing anything as to what has been done may just plug it in to some real voltage thinking its OK to do so


If you purchased a machine with a loose wire coming from the plug, you'd plug it in and see what happened?

In that case, maybe we do need still more safety inspectors to plug things in for us.



Also, I think you will find that the codes do not just relate to so-called fixed wiring.....the wiring rules cover wiring of machinery, airconditioning units, toasters etc etc...

I think you're wrong. Codes for all fixed wiring. Codes for anything that is plugged in that you sell. Ratings so you are within the current and voltage limits of the equipment you are using.

[eskimo]

I think you're wrong. Codes for all fixed wiring. Codes for anything that is plugged in that you sell. Ratings so you are within the current and voltage limits of the equipment you are using.

??? why then does machinery, aircon units etc etc have to have earthing which meets our codes....this is just one area that I can recall immediately without having to refer to AS3000

under certain conditions an aircon unit, for example, which has a removable access cover plate to access the electrics has to have an earth strap/wire back to the main earth terminal on the unit....this is because our codes calls for it.

a lot of USA stuff has to have electrical mods before it can be sold in Aus...especially the installation of additional earth wires

[Stustoys]

Because
A. It is part of the fixed wiring
or
B. It is being sold as new
or
C.It comes under the "check and tag" workplace legislation
or maybe even more than one of the above.


Its a little hard for me to prove a negitive.

[Polie]

Hi Stu,

You may not be messing with fixed wiring (AS 3000) but there are plenty of other standards that govern how electrical installations must be carried out, this is to protect both you and the next owner.

The list below is of just some of the other standards relating to electrical installations that I have to abide by for my current project, there are plenty more: :o

AS 1029 Low Voltage Subcontractors (up to and including 1000V AC)
AS 1049 Telecommunications Cables – Insulation and Sheath – Polyethylene
AS 1125 Conductors in Insulated Electric Cables and Flexible Cords
AS 1429 Electric Cables – Polymeric Insulation – for working voltages 1.9/3.3kV up to and including 19/33kV
AS 1882 Earth and Bond Clamps
AS 1930 Circuit breakers for distribution circuits (up to and including 1000V AC and 1200 V DC)
AS 1939 Classification of degrees of protection provided by enclosures for electrical equipment
AS 2184 Moulded case circuit breakers (up to and including 600V AC, 250V DC) above 10kA
AS 2293 Part 1 Emergency Evacuation Lighting in Building
AS 2643 Fluorescent lamp ballasts of reactive type
AS 2834 Computer Accommodation
AS 3000 SAA Wiring Rules
AS 3111 Miniature over current circuit breakers
AS 3116 Approval and test Specification for elastometer insulated electric cables and flexible cables (for working voltages of 0.6/1kV)
AS 3137 Luminaries
AS 3147 PVC Insulated Electric Cables and Flexible Cables for Working Voltages of 0.6/1kV
AS 3168 Fluorescent lamp ballasts
AS 3260 Specification safety of information technology equipment including electrical business equipment
AS 3439 Low Voltage Switchgear and Control Gear Assemblies for Voltages up to 1000V AC
AS 3548 Electromagnetic interference – Limits and methods of measurement of information technology equipment


Please seek advise from a suitably qualified electrical engineer/contractor.

Regards,
Chris

[Stustoys]

Chris
Just because there are standards doesn't mean any of them apply to my situation.

There are standards that apply to headlight alignment, do they apply to a car that isn't registered? No
If you buy said unregistered car and want to register it, its your problem to seek advise from a suitably qualified mechanic and have them fixed.

I have extension lead. Do I need to have it tested and tagged? No I don't. If someone buys that extension lead from me it's their responsibility to have it tested and tagged if needed.

Home many houses have Emergency Evacuation Lighting?

Stuart

[eskimo]

your 32v to 24v problem???

its just occured to to me that I service a chiller which has a time delay relay which uses a small synchronous 120v motor on a 240v supply. It has a resistor in series with it which reduces the voltage

and also you could get a 32V - 24V tranny built if expense is not a problem...any transformer manufacturer could do it.

[Vernonv]

The resistor could work if the load is fairly constant. It will most likely need to me a high wattage resistor though.

[Polie]

There are standards that apply to headlight alignment, do they apply to a car that isn't registered? No
If you buy said unregistered car and want to register it, its your problem to seek advise from a suitably qualified mechanic and have them fixed.
Stuart

Stuart,

By connecting your equipment to your state grid you are effectively 'registering' your car.

Moderators: an electrical warning is required on this thread.

Chris

[Vernonv]

Sorry Chris, but Stuart is correct about his "appliance" not needing to meet any defined standards. If he was to manufacture and sell said "appliance", then that's a different story.

However, he could still be liable for any damages/injuries/deaths cause by the "appliance" so it's always wise to put safety first.

[Stustoys]

eskimo, Vernonv I used to work for a transformer company. I should have grabbed a winding machine :) A series resistors will work as the load is only a tiny winding inside a clock. Its just I will have to measure the load and do the math. I was hoping someone would have been educated guess. My guess for the load will be something less than 10mA. I doubt the coil would breakdown at 32V anyway but the world might explode if it did, so I better be careful.


Chris
I believe you are wrong.
By your argument at car on a battery charger is part of the grid and has to meant code.

and the extension lead?
I have extension lead. Do I need to have it tested and tagged? No I don't. If someone buys that extension lead from me it's their responsibility to have it tested and tagged if needed.

and the Emergency Evacuation Lighting
Home many houses have Emergency Evacuation Lighting?

Show me the code at applies to my situation....... not a list of standards that most if not all have nothing to do with my situation.

No need for a warning yet. You haven't proven that a suitably qualified electrical engineer/contractor is required in my situation.




Stuart

p.s. Vernonv it appears I still type way to slow lol

[Vernonv]

I dare not guess at what sort of load the timer will be (do you have a manufacturer name and part number for it?), but for your estimate of 10mA gives the following.

To drop 32V to 24V for a 10mA load would require 800 Ohms. A 1/4 watt resistor will be fine.

[Stustoys]

Thanks Vernonv
Its by Alstom CH48AC24V
I've just measured the one I have running now.
26V at 5mA
So something in the 1.6kohm range.
Now, should I rummage though my boxes of boards looking for one or go to jaycar for an 8pk for $0.46............ lol jaycar it is. While I am there I can get some bridges for my LED lights :)

Stuart

p.s. If someone starts in about impedance in AC circuits........................

[eskimo]

impedance in AC circuits........................

what would you like to know???........:p

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

Vernon has already answered your question, a dropping resistor is the easiest provided the load is constant.

If you had to do the same thing but with a variable load.

In that case a better solution is to use a transformer, BUT rather than getting a custom wound 32-24v transformer, you could use a standard 240v step down transformer that has multiple taps on the secondary and wire it as an auto-transformer.

Hook up your 32 volts across the outside windings of the secondary. Then use a multimeter to pick the tap closest to the voltage you want. I could draw a cct, but you probably already have the idea.

Don't forget to insulate the terminals on the primary side, because they will have high volts.

I think jaycar or dick smith would have something suitable. Look for a frame with adequate VA rating and lots of taps on the secondary.

Regards
Ray

[Vernonv]

Rays suggestion is certainly a good one and (as he points out) perfect for situations where the load changes.

One thing to be careful of is the voltage rating of the secondary - try and pick a transformer that has a secondary as close to 32 volts as possible. For example if you hook 32 volts across a 12 volt secondary you run the risk of over-saturating the transformer (will cause it to fry sooner or later) as well as causing the primary to produce around 640V.

[Stustoys]

RayG Now that is a clever idea. I'd always thought of auto tranformers as a stupid idea... until now.

Vernonv Depending on the bobbin layout I should be able to dig the primary out without damaging the secondary.


Thanks guys

Stuart

[eskimo]

Rays suggestion is certainly a good one and (as he points out) perfect for situations where the load changes.

One thing to be careful of is the voltage rating of the secondary - try and pick a transformer that has a secondary as close to 32 volts as possible. For example if you hook 32 volts across a 12 volt secondary you run the risk of over-saturating the transformer (will cause it to fry sooner or later) as well as causing the primary to produce around 640V.

wouldnt the tranny just collapse rather than burn out?

[Vernonv]

wouldnt the tranny just collapse rather than burn out?That's certainly not my experience with doing similar things to what is being suggested here. Also from what I remember reading/studying (and this is a bit sketchy as it was some time ago) over-saturation causes an increase in the current flow, increase in heat generated and can eventually burn it out, even when running very low loads.

[Stustoys]

Well I roughed out the control circuit for the shaper today. All worked fine, the hour meter is runnning at 25.9V but thats because the tran is putting out 33.9V. Now to neaten it up and hide it inside the machine base. I even kept the inch button as it was easier to keep than get rid of it.
Plugs and sockets should arrive next week.
Stuart