Roughing gouge

[Dills58]

Hi all, can someone post a pic of what a well ground roughing gouge looks like. I am struggling with what needs to be where ie is it meant to be square if you get my drift....

Dills.

[Mr Brush]

I'd be interested to know as well. My roughing gouge had a very shallow bevel ground on it from new, which I have carefully maintained as I sharpen it. I read elsewhere that the bevel angle should be 45° - is this mainly to suit our harder timbers, or are there other factors at play??

As for profile, everything I've read says the cutting edge should be straight for the whole width of the gouge, not ground back at the edges.

[Dills58]

At the moment I get most of my cut from the sides and only rubbing from the bottom. I am sharpening it all but only using two thirds.

Thought I would put a pic or two of what I have.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv36/dills58/P1070636.jpg
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv36/dills58/P1070634.jpg

[rsser]

Yes Mr B., about 45* on the bevel and all the cutting edge at 90* to the shaft. That gives you the sides and the bottom to blunt before going back to the grinder.

[Mr Brush]

Thanks Ern - I'll take to it with the Tru Grind this arvo.

As purchased from McJings, the roughing gouge has a substantially more swept back bevel. Fine for softer woods, but doesn't last long on the spotted gum I'm using at the moment ! :oo:

Cheers

[Jim Carroll]

Dills58 you need to grind the top of your wings a bit more as they are forward of the bottom curve of the blade.
They should finish up about 5 degrees back from verticle so as not to catch.
What is happening when you grind the chisel all the way round then back again is that the centre gets 2 grinds and the wings 1 only so producing this shape.

[rsser]

Yeah, Spotty will give your tools a good workout Mr B.

You can have swept back wings if you like and use it like a forged spindle gouge. Has its pluses but it's not then really a spindle roughing gouge.

And you may know this but if not, you can usually get a cleaner cut (when getting down to finished dimensions) if you skew the roughing gouge somewhat. Ie., in relation to the direction of travel on the spindle piece, the angle between the tool shaft and the spindle is obtuse. This gives you a shearing cut.

[Dills58]

Thanks for the advice peoples, looks like I need to totally change the profile including the 45 degree edge.

[RETIRED]

YouTube - Woodturning: Mounting & Roughing Blanks : Woodturning: Roughing Gouge

[Dills58]

Thanks , you know, I searched you tube for this data and could not find it, it is fairly clear how it is meant to be.:2tsup:

Dills.

[rsser]

Yep.

It's also worth pointing out that, less commonly, spindle roughing gouges come in a V shape.

Guilio M was using one at the last TWWW show in Melb.

Principles would be the same though.

And even rarer, P&N make a hefty milled roughing gouge. It's got its pluses too but the ones I've seen have coarse milling marks left which make it harder to get a clean cut.

As posted, with a skewed angle (and pref with a refined edge) a roughing gouge can also be a finishing tool. Certainly there are better options but if you're on a budget ...

[NeilS]

And even rarer, P&N make a hefty milled roughing gouge. It's got its pluses too but the ones I've seen have coarse milling marks left which make it harder to get a clean cut.



Yeah, it's nice and heavy and at 1 1/4" OD really takes off the wood. As for the milling marks, they will grind and hone out with a bit of patience. A bit exy now but unless you are doing heavy spindle work every day they will outlast most turners.
.

[rsser]

Neil's the master of the understatement if I may say.

I'd happily trade a morning of my effort for a bit of his patience.

But that's just me.

The P&N is a great rougher, and if I were buying again I'd go down and crawl over the retailer's stock to get the one needing the least honing of the flute.

I've seen one where one where a flute wall was so gouged it'd take the patience of a saint to take it out.

[Duckweed]

Hi,

It's interesting how roughing gouges have become deeper (like bowl turning gouges) over time.

My original roughing gouges were much flatter in section.

Gary

[rsser]

Yeah, I've got a Henry Taylor shallow gouge which works nicely as a roughing gouge. 1 1/4" wide, straight across cutting edge.

This morning I was alternating between it and a U rougher by Record, on abrasive redgum which knocked the edges off in no time.

[jimbur]

I've seen one where one where a flute wall was so gouged it'd take the patience of a saint to take it out.
Had a p & n spindle gouge a bit like that. Move over Mary McKillop.
Cheers,
Jim

[Dills58]

Getting back to the fact I have to alter the profile of my gouge, An experienced turnner once told me not to waste metal, alter it as you need to sharpen. This may take some time....lol.

Dills.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I don't know that I'd stress too much about redoing the bevel at 45°

Mine's about the same as yours (ackershully, a bit over 80°) and that's how I like it. Mind you, I use my roughing gouge for roughing to round, not finishing cuts.

It's the tool I usually use for knocking off bark, etc. from the outside of my blanks... and as such is also the one that tends to find any embedded gravel, missed nails :B and the like.

So I like the thicker bevel: it dissipates heat better and also takes abuse fairly well while still cutting well enough for the task at hand

Worrying about getting a "finishing" quality cut off it is, to me, pointless.


But I know that some people do use a roughing gouge so far into the turning that finishing quality cuts are desirable. (I guess they can't afford a decent 1" spindle gouge. Ah well... it sux to be them. :U)

[Duckweed]

Hi rsser,

I was originally trained by an old production woodturner and they only used that style of roughing gouge. Fortunately, old redgum wasn't usually part of their daily workload.

Most of their tools were high carbon tool steel and were sharpened once daily. That was a job for the apprentices.

My first roughing gouge was a Henry Taylor, too.

[artme]

An interesting point has come up in this discussion, one that I have often pondered.

Apart from the aforementioned P&N rougher none of the manufacturers seem to make hefty roughers. Given the nature of the task they are put too I would think that some heft would be the first consideration in manufacture.

[Sturdee]

Sorby sells an 1 1/4 roughing gouge similar to the P & N one except that the back is polished. But I don't think that is really necessary for the roughing down.


Peter.

[rsser]

Arthur, it'd be an issue of cost at a guess. You can forge the std rougher but the P&N is milled from rod.

Skew, I don't worry about getting a finishing cut from a rougher. Sometimes it's just a simple and quick option to present the tool slightly differently. You get a good enough finish without having to hunt for another tool.

I've seen pen turners who do the whole process just with their rougher.

[Ozkaban]

An interesting point has come up in this discussion, one that I have often pondered.

Apart from the aforementioned P&N rougher none of the manufacturers seem to make hefty roughers. Given the nature of the task they are put too I would think that some heft would be the first consideration in manufacture.

I personally like the P&N rougher - the 32mm is a hefty beast. One point that raised when he came to Sydney is that while they are much stronger around the tang they are not as good at clearing shavings than the more open (made from flat bar) skews. The 32mm is better in this regard than the 25mm though.

Cheers,
Dave

[rsser]

Same is true of any deep flute gouge.

goes in hard cos for him time is (was?) money.

For turners with more leisure I wouldn't have thought it an issue.

[RETIRED]

Same is true of any deep flute gouge.

goes in hard cos for him time is (was?) money.

For turners with more leisure I wouldn't have thought it an issue.
Still is but I just hate wasting time getting rid of garbage at any time.:D

[hughie]

Still is but I just hate wasting time getting rid of garbage at any time.:D

my sentiments entirely,if its not wanted, why pussy foot around with delicate cuts.:2tsup:

[Old Croc]

Yep.

And even rarer, P&N make a hefty milled roughing gouge. It's got its pluses too but the ones I've seen have coarse milling marks left which make it harder to get a clean cut.



Ern, I have seen this commented on before, and an easy way to fix it is by getting a grinding stone with a 1/4inch shank, and gently grinding and polishing the inside of your tools. It only takes a few minutes with a small drill, and you will be rewarded with a very keen cutting edge.
Also "" let me use his gear at the Prossie Turnout, and he had a shallow roughing gouge, and it worked equally as well.
regards,
Crocy.

[RETIRED]

On softwoods I tend to use a 2" or smaller "U" shaped roughing gouge.

On hardwoods I use a 11/4" spindle gouge.

It depends on the size and type of job at the time.

On smaller stuff I generally use a 3/4" spindle gouge to rough down and form the rough shape.

[jefferson]

my sentiments entirely,if its not wanted, why pussy foot around with delicate cuts.:2tsup:

Dunno whether you're 100% right on this one, Hughie. :rolleyes:

Beginner and intermediate turners need practice with all kinds of cuts, but especially finishing cuts. The important ones where you correct tear-out, a bad line or an awkward curve.

So, if you waste and waste in a hurry, then try to finish cut..... Damn, I only had a chance or two to get it right. Instead of 100 if you had been practicing. Muscle memory stuff.

It's a balance, no question. But please do not deride learners (like me) that are more intent on process, not an outcome that we may not be up to - because I / we were in such a hurry to get to a destination.

The other side to it is - of course - those that finish cut all the time. Sure, they can waste well enough but instead they choose to whittle the wood down in tiny steps.

There must be a description for those so afflicted. Or addicted.

[rsser]

Old croc, yes, there are a number of honing methods that can refine the edge, but believe me, the milling marks I was talking about were like tram tracks, deep enough to require reshaping of the flute with all the risks to the shape of the cutting edge that that involves.

I did a trial flute polish with one of GJ's shallow gouges which did not have distinct milling marks, and even then emery compound (c. #200) on a honing wheel on the lathe didn't take the scratches out. It just polished the top of them.

[Sawdust Maker]

I was wondering ... does a well polished flute make that great a difference to the turning experience? ie would a near beginner like me notice any difference?

Just curious

[rsser]

A refined edge will cut cleaner and longer Nick.

Is it worth the bother of regular honings, inside and out? In my book, for a rougher not really but if you do want to make that last cut a finishing cut, maybe.

[Sturdee]

Maybe I'm missing something here. :?

We are talking about a roughing gouge, mainly used to get irregular shaped wood to round. So the quicker the better and I use the largest roughing gouge to get it done. No need for muscle memory or delicate cuts whilst getting it round.

Then when the wood is round for the more detailed shaping etc I use a spindle gouge and not a roughing gouge or does anyone use the roughing gouge for the final finishing cuts?

Peter.

[rsser]

Yes, as posted I do from time to time with my U shaped roughing gouge.

A standard or common roughing gouge is a forged spindle gouge with a deep flute.

You can get a cleaner cut off it if you present the edge in a shear position; ie. swing the handle end away from you and roll the tool around so the cutting edge is at about 45 degrees to the travel direction of the wood.

I suggest you try it on a bit of pine; compare the finish with that off the tool presented perpendicular to the spindle. Chalk and cheese. One cut is going across the grain; another cut is running closer to with the grain.

So, my main use of this tool is of course to true the spindle and I use it perpendicular to the spindle cos it's quick and dirty. Often during that process and certainly at the end it needs a lick on the dry grinder to be ready for the next project. At that point, if a section of the spindle piece is now close to size and won't be further shaped, a finishing pass with the fresh edge in shear mode will clean it up nicely. Job done.

Correction: a shear cut can also go against the grain depending on orientation, in which case you change direction and curse yourself for not being ambidextrous :(

[rsser]

So, why wish to be ambidextrous?

I'm right handed so I have the tool handle in that hand and the left hand at the tool rest.

With the maul in the pic I went to do my 'roughing' gouge finishing cut on the head, but the grain was rising towards the cutting edge so all I got was tear-out. (Just as you would with a handplane going against the grain).

I couldn't just swing the body around to go the other way cos the left forearm fouled the headstock and I couldn't anyway see what the cutting edge was doing.

[RETIRED]

So, why wish to be ambidextrous?

I'm right handed so I have the tool handle in that hand and the left hand at the tool rest.

With the maul in the pic I went to do my 'roughing' gouge finishing cut on the head, but the grain was rising towards the cutting edge so all I got was tear-out. (Just as you would with a handplane going against the grain).

I couldn't just swing the body around to go the other way cos the left forearm fouled the headstock and I couldn't anyway see what the cutting edge was doing.Straight grain in most cases has no bearing in spindle work.

I think the reason you were getting tear out on the head is that it looks as though you were trying to cut uphill.

If you did the "Time Warp" and jumped to the left you have enough clearance to use your right hand,:wink::D

[rsser]

Straight grain has no bearing: of course.

Tear-out cos of uphill cut?: could be; but the grain was running distinctly up to the tailstock side.

Time Warp? Now I'll come down to Tooradin if you'll have me so I can hop in the Tardis :D

[Sawdust Maker]

A refined edge will cut cleaner and longer Nick.

Is it worth the bother of regular honings, inside and out? In my book, for a rougher not really but if you do want to make that last cut a finishing cut, maybe.


My question was more general and not specific to the rougher
Thanks for the answer

BTW I like the look of your mallet, just what SWMBO needs to bash her cereal.(don't ask)
What's the bit of ply on the lathe bed for?

Now I'm well and truly hijacking this thread :hijacked:

[Jim Carroll]

So, why wish to be ambidextrous?

I'm right handed so I have the tool handle in that hand and the left hand at the tool rest.

With the maul in the pic I went to do my 'roughing' gouge finishing cut on the head, but the grain was rising towards the cutting edge so all I got was tear-out. (Just as you would with a handplane going against the grain).

I couldn't just swing the body around to go the other way cos the left forearm fouled the headstock and I couldn't anyway see what the cutting edge was doing.

Ern get rid of the little bead in the middle and the square edge at the bottom.
When used in anger you will find those little bits annoying.

[jefferson]

Maybe I'm missing something here. :?

We are talking about a roughing gouge, mainly used to get irregular shaped wood to round. So the quicker the better and I use the largest roughing gouge to get it done. No need for muscle memory or delicate cuts whilst getting it round.

Then when the wood is round for the more detailed shaping etc I use a spindle gouge and not a roughing gouge or does anyone use the roughing gouge for the final finishing cuts?

Peter.

Peter,

I've got 5 roughing gouges. 3 are for brute work (2 P & Ns, the other a Chinese cheapie). The other two I use extensively for shaping work on boxes and finials - the first one is a 3/4" HT and for gentle curves it works a treat. The other one is a 5/16" Sorby - which is quite a pleasant tool for roughing down and refining the shape of onions etc on finials.

And yes, I do take my time wasting the wood off in the last case especially. I may be roughing down, but the wood measures in millimetres. It doesn't take much to destroy the line as they say.

Does that make sense?

[Sturdee]

The other two I use extensively for shaping work on boxes and finials - the first one is a 3/4" HT and for gentle curves it works a treat. The other one is a 5/16" Sorby - which is quite a pleasant tool for roughing down and refining the shape of onions etc on finials.

And yes, I do take my time wasting the wood off in the last case especially. I may be roughing down, but the wood measures in millimetres. It doesn't take much to destroy the line as they say.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it does make sense now. The two that you use for shaping work I call spindle gouges not roughing gouges. Confusion arose because of terminology differences. :D

So, although for roughing stock to round I go like a bat escaping out of hell using the largest ( 1 1/4" ) roughing gouge I've got, when it comes down to shaping and finishing I use the same tools as you taking many small cuts.


Thanks for clearing this up.

Peter.

[rsser]

Nick, the MDF is on the bed to protect it from CA or finish.

Jim, you may well be right. This is Mark 1 of a froe maul made for Jeremy. I put the bead there so when he picks it up for thumping he can readily centre his palm on the handle belly. The splayed end is there as in this application there may be a deal of forward thrust. I have several mallets with a similar feature so thought to reproduce it, but I'm in the dark never having mauled a froe.

The bottom edge is actually slightly rounded so it won't cut into the hand but will send a signal to grip tighter.

[Jim Carroll]

Ern with any mallet you tend to use it like a tennis raquet so the hand is near the end so the square edge will press into the bottom of your hand and become uncomfortable.

Then there is times for finiese work where you have your hand near the top and again the bead and square edges come into play.

You tend to move your hand around a bit using these types of mallet.

[rsser]

Thanks for the tips Jim.

The main criterion here is heft, so that's why the grip section is located down toward the end. I don't know how thick Jeremy's froe is or how wide the billets he'll be splitting with it, but among shingle makers a 6" diameter head may not be too much. This only has 90mm so we'll see. There won't be much finessing with this tool.

He can spokeshave the end if the step becomes a problem.

[Sawdust Maker]

Nick, the MDF is on the bed to protect it from CA or finish.

...

Thanks

I use a piece of that vinyl leather lookalike for a similar purpose

[NeilS]

Was around at my workshop yesterday and took another look at the grind marks in the flute of my old P&N gouge.

156724

Ern, not so terrible, I thought. I've seen worse on a Thompson.

Have had this gouge for quite a while now, perhaps fifteen to twenty years , so perhaps the more recent P&Ns have coarser milling marks.

If ever I need a new one of these P&N roughing gouges I might have to look for another old secondhand one. But it's unlikely that I'm ever going to wear this one out in my life time... given that it has already done many hundreds of hours work and is showing very little sign of being ground away any time soon.... especially now that I've got a Crown 1" bowl gouge... and no longer have to use the P&N roughing gouge for roughing down the outside of larger bowls, which it can do, but with considerable care (like using a modified swept back grind, putting a longer handle on it, and keeping the toolrest right up next to the work). Best left until you are very experienced with the bowl gouge, but if you do this, don't mention it here... it's a no, no.. but how it's any different to a large 'U' fluted bowl gouge escapes me . PS - these comments are only made in reference to the P&N roughing gouge which has a substantial 1/2" tang, unlike many other spindle roughing gouges that have thin fragile tangs that can break and cause a nasty accident. And, I'm not recommending anyone else do this, just confessing to the error of my ways... :rolleyes:

On honing the the grind marks out, I've found this type of mandrel in a drill works well to quickly get the milling grooves out before going on to polish out the grinding marks from the mandrel with chromium compound on the edge of a profiled disk (of MDF or fine grained wood).

156725

.

[jefferson]

Neil,

I read the fine print and immediately thought: HERESY!

I've had three separate mentors all warn me away from roughing gouges and bowl work too. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Anyway, whatever works for you.

[Old Croc]

[QUOTE=Sawdust Maker;1252103]My question was more general and not specific to the rougher
Thanks for the answer

Nick, from my experience, it does matter, as it will give you a very strong, stable, razor sharp edge, off my Tormek that is, :2tsup:
Crocy

[rsser]

Yes, some of my Thompsons are not that sweet in this respect, but all but one are open to corrective surgery without major risk factors.

Jeff, teachers teach what they know but as you imply, you work out your own approach.

[rsser]

Crocy, with the Tormek you get a burr that's soft and can often be pullled off by hand.

With a dry grinder you get a hard burr so every sharpening you need to hone inside the flute.

Not that simple.

I agree that refining the edge will give longer life and cleaner cut. But with the circumstances that I refer to, there's a significant overhead.

[rsser]

Neil, that looks much nicer than the two I've seen.

Can you post more detail about your honing mandrel?

[NeilS]

Neil, that looks much nicer than the two I've seen.

Can you post more detail about your honing mandrel?

The one I use is of this (http://www.carbatec.com.au/sleeveless-sanding-drum-set_c1050) type, but is only 1/2" diam. Had a look but can't find a source for a 1/2" anymore. All the ones I could find were 1" diam and up.

Gluing or stapling various grits of abrasive cloth to doweling would do the same trick and cheaper!

I only need to go about an inch up the flute.... then you get to see just how slowly you are grinding your gouge away. Now that I've got the diamond wheel I may never have to do mine again....:D
.

[Sturdee]

The one I use is of this (http://www.carbatec.com.au/sleeveless-sanding-drum-set_c1050) type, but is only 1/2" diam. Had a look but can't find a source for a 1/2" anymore. All the ones I could find were 1" diam and up.


.

The 1/2" diam is still included in their 20 piece set. (http://www.carbatec.com.au/20-piece-sanding-drum-set-long_c1080) I still have the 1/2 " one but used the rest in my sanding tools.


Peter.

[rsser]

Thanks guys.

Nice one Neil.

The two I've reported on would need some going up through the grits.

Should be possible with a deft hand.

[Sawdust Maker]

Nick, from my experience, it does matter, as it will give you a very strong, stable, razor sharp edge, off my Tormek that is, :2tsup:
Crocy

Thanks

I've now splashed out on the T7
another rash moment recently at Carbatec
put a nice edge on my bowl gouges :U Yep I did notice the difference.
haven't set it up with the honing wheels yet. So I expect I've never known sharp before

[RETIRED]

Nick, it takes a little time, perseverance and patience to get the flutes polished.

You may find that you need to sharpen the tool after doing it to get an edge back on it.

[RETIRED]

I've had three separate mentors all warn me away from roughing gouges and bowl work too.


Jeff, teachers teach what they know but as you imply, you work out your own approach.

Spindle Gouges (http://www.turnedtreasures.com/tools/spindle_gouges/spindle_gouges.html)
Spindle roughing gouge - WikiWOOD (http://www.woodbase.org/index.php5?title=Spindle_roughing_gouge)
The Spindle Roughing Gouge - The Woodworkers Institute (http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=1581)
round opinions: Roughing Gouge: getting started (http://roundopinions.blogspot.com/2007/10/roughing-gouge-getting-started.html)
Roughing Gouges (http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Turning_Tools/Roughing/roughing.html)

It is not just your mentors Jeff but most professional turners and even the manufacturers.

It is probably, along with the Skew(unless as a negative rake scraper) a spindle tool and a spindle tool only.

You can to a certain extent get away with using a small one (under 1") for the OUTSIDE of a bowl but use it on the inside and the ramifications can and generally will be catastrophic.

Again it comes down to terminology and words being dropped. I always refer to it as "A Spindle Roughing Gouge".

[Dills58]

Great post , great research. This topic has certainly generated some interest, it has more than answered my initial query.

Dills.

[rsser]

Onya Nick. Have fun with the T7.

IME the accessory gouge honing wheel and compound is a waste of money.

It will take off the soft burr (as will the first second on the wood) but won't polish the gouge flute properly. The compound is only 1-3 microns so how could it?

[Big Shed]

I would agree with you Ern, but I think you need to qualify that statement even further. I don't use the "accessory gouge honing wheel" for my wood turning chisels, but do use it extensively on SWMBO'd wood carving chisels.

It does an excellent job on them.

Just as well, as I spent a bit of time making one.

[RETIRED]

They seem to work on the flutes of mine.

[rsser]

Fred, as you'd know there's a big diff btwn HCS and HSS in how they respond to abrasive types and carriers.

, have you had the flutes under a 'scope to see if the polish is complete or just surface?

[NeilS]

Spindle Gouges (http://www.turnedtreasures.com/tools/spindle_gouges/spindle_gouges.html)
Spindle roughing gouge - WikiWOOD (http://www.woodbase.org/index.php5?title=Spindle_roughing_gouge)
The Spindle Roughing Gouge - The Woodworkers Institute (http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=1581)
round opinions: Roughing Gouge: getting started (http://roundopinions.blogspot.com/2007/10/roughing-gouge-getting-started.html)
Roughing Gouges (http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Turning_Tools/Roughing/roughing.html)

It is not just your mentors Jeff but most professional turners and even the manufacturers.

It is probably, along with the Skew(unless as a negative rake scraper) a spindle tool and a spindle tool only.

You can to a certain extent get away with using a small one (under 1") for the OUTSIDE of a bowl but use it on the inside and the ramifications can and generally will be catastrophic.

Again it comes down to terminology and words being dropped. I always refer to it as "A Spindle Roughing Gouge".

Fair qualifications and emphasis, .

So, I went back and added the following to my earlier posting:

PS - these comments are only made in reference to the P&N roughing gouge which has a substantial 1/2" tang, unlike many other spindle roughing gouges that have thin fragile tangs that can break and cause a nasty accident. And, I'm not recommending anyone else do this, just confessing to the error of my ways.

The comment from Michael O Donnell in the article you cited sums it up for me..."Okay, there are some turners who get away with it on cross grain work for a very limited number of cuts, but the risk is high and there are other tools which will do that job much better."

Guess that is why I eventually added the 1" Bowl gouge to my kit.
.

[RETIRED]

The comment from Michael O Donnell in the article you cited sums it up for me..."Okay, there are some turners who get away with it on cross grain work for a very limited number of cuts, but the risk is high and there are other tools which will do that job much better."That is the point and unfortunately it has been proved on numerous occasions by people I know.

Ern, I have not magnified the polish but it may be an exercise in futility in my case, you are aware that I have advocated polishing the flutes on gouges for the last 30+ years but the Tormek honing paste does eventually get a very good polish to the flute if you touch it up every 2-3 sharpens.

It definitely does no harm.:)

[rsser]

True 'nuff .

I had at a Thompson detail gouge for several minutes so maybe I'm just impatient.

As with the trial P&N shallow gouge from GJ, it polished the surface but didn't take out the scratches.

So I would still say to those who want to get a polished flute, look at other means such as NeilS has suggested. Or Frank has posted (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/honing-lathe-126371/)on. Or search the forum on 'power honing'.

Looking at my gouge flutes, on many the milling marks would be about what you'd get off a 240 grit bonded abrasive. So that's 50 microns and the jump to the 1-3 microns in Tormek's goo is big.

Yes, you'll get there in the end, and with your intensive sharpening and honing routine you must've.

[Sawdust Maker]

Was wondering (yeah again, bad habit I know :doh:)

whether there were any recorded mishaps with the P&N vis a vis the, say, Sorby's when using to spindle roughing gouge to rough down the outside of a blank for a bowl

[artme]

Ern made reference earlier to the use of the roughing gouge by some pen turners to do the complete pen.

I have done this many times but the shape you turn must be a simple one or you are in trouble -DAMHIK>:no:

As for shaping the outsid of a bowl, I have also done this.:o Works best going "downhill" and using a 1" gouge that is SHARP.

A month or so ago I had to make a wooden aeroplane for #2 grandson and shaped the fuselage with a roughing gouge _ it was the only sharp tool to hand and the grinder is currently buried at the back of the shed!

I have had a tutor at the club take a roughing gouge from me while I was working. Bloddy idiot!! More dangerous than anything I was doing. Guess the club is tryng to protect itself.:?

[Jim Carroll]

Was wondering (yeah again, bad habit I know :doh:)

whether there were any recorded mishaps with the P&N vis a vis the, say, Sorby's when using to spindle roughing gouge to rough down the outside of a blank for a bowl

It does not matter the brand a Roughing Gouge or Spindle Roughing Gouge is what it is.

Spindle work only and as the name insists it is for ROUGHING down in extreeem cases it can be used for fineese work but there other tools that do this job better.

The interior of the flute can be roughly milled it still does not matter it will still cut to a reasonable finish with a sharp edge. If using on an angle you should get a finish that allows you to start sanding from 150g if you need to go lower then you are not trying.

[issatree]

Hi All,
Well Said Jim,well said.
It is after all a Roughing Gouge, & that is what it does.
Yes, I've watched Vic Wood, Skew with a Roughing Gouge, but as Jim said, there are better tools for the job,
Yes, I've done many Pens of simple Design, with a R/Gouge.
I am Definitely against, roughing down a Bowl Blank.
Knew of a Turner showing 3 newbies how to do the outside of a bowl blank with a R/G.
Blank came out of the Lathe 3 times, & those Chaps never joined that Wood Club.
A 5/8 Spindle Gouge or a Big Bowl Gouge, yes,
Regards,
issatree.

[NeilS]

Was wondering (yeah again, bad habit I know :doh:)

whether there were any recorded mishaps with the P&N vis a vis the, say, Sorby's when using to spindle roughing gouge to rough down the outside of a blank for a bowl

Not heard of any P&N SRG tangs breaking (or for that matter Thompson's Mark St.Leger's 5/8 SRG, which has an even more substantial tang), but have read about the more fragile forged tangs like these on other brands breaking and bending.

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156801

There is a good example of a broken SRG tang shown in this (http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3340&PN=1) thread. There is also a some sound discussion on the issues and safety concerns about using any SRG on the outside of bowls. The take home messages is that there is a distinction between "what is Possible and what is Best Practice (Best Practice being considered to be the safest and most efficient means to an end)"
.

[rsser]

My take on why not to use a (spindle) RG on a bowl, at least with one a deal larger in diam than a typical spindle piece, is that the RG cutting edge is all on one plane, so if the leading edge starts to catch, rapidly a wider section of that edge gets involved and held rather than kicked back, and you get a dig that levers the bowl out of the chuck or faceplate.

Re my lack of success in polishing out milling marks on flute gouges with the Tormek profiled honing wheel, today I realised the two trial tools were Thompsons and maybe their 10% Vanadium content was defeating the abrasive particles in the Tormek compound.

With one gouge today I got a half decent result using Alox rods. These are quite slim, go up through a range of grits and are cheap. Click (http://www.carbatec.com.au/carba-tec-sharpening-sticks_c20469).

[Sawdust Maker]

My question really related to the inate strength of each type of tool, ie whether it would be "safer" to use a P&N type over a Sorby type.
I'm sure I'd be mighty upset if I broke a new Sorby (or any brand) rougher whilst using it on the outside of a bowl.
I confess that I have used my P&N in such a fashion, but to rough down not for any finessing. And by roughing down I mean bowl blanks which are 8 sided at the best (off the chainsaw) and used until the piece is round. The P&N seems to be a pretty strong and solidly made tool. I'm now using my new Thompson bowl gouge for the same purpose. Mainly because I'd read a number of "do not" articles and posts re the misuse of the spindle roughing gouge.


...

Re my lack of success in polishing out milling marks on flute gouges with the Tormek profiled honing wheel, today I realised the two trial tools were Thompsons and maybe their 10% Vanadium content was defeating the abrasive particles in the Tormek compound.

With one gouge today I got a half decent result using Alox rods. These are quite slim, go up through a range of grits and are cheap. Click (http://www.carbatec.com.au/carba-tec-sharpening-sticks_c20469).

I'm going to have a closer look at my P&Ns. I'm not sure that any of them have the gross milling marks you mention, but then I really don't know as I've never had a really close look.
Thanks for the link - they look like handy additions to the workshop (but you shouldn't have mentioned that they are/were cheap the price will now go up :doh:)


Not heard of any P&N SRG tangs breaking (or for that matter Thompson's Mark St.Leger's 5/8 SRG, which has an even more substantial tang), but have read about the more fragile forged tangs like these on other brands breaking and bending.

... There is also a some sound discussion on the issues and safety concerns about using any SRG on the outside of bowls. The take home messages is that there is a distinction between "what is Possible and what is Best Practice (Best Practice being considered to be the safest and most efficient means to an end)"
.

Best practice is something one should consider. But at the end of the day I still like to know "why". I've had best practice quoted at me in other contexts where it was deemed to be totally unnecessary, so have become a little, shall we say, a tad cynical.
I'd thought the Mark St.Leger's 5/8 looked like a beefed up P&N, but wasn't sure. The profile looked to be very similar to me. Also wondered why Hughie ordered one in the recent group purchase. "Planing cuts" was his answer.

[NeilS]

My question really related to the innate strength of each type of tool, ie whether it would be "safer" to use a P&N type over a Sorby type.
I'm sure I'd be mighty upset if I broke a new Sorby (or any brand) rougher whilst using it on the outside of a bowl.

Belated reply to your question, Nick.

Took a couple of comparative pics of the P&N and a standard SRG (HT Diamic, I think).

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158464

The view from above doesn't show that much difference, but the side view is very telling.

Can't ever see myself breaking the tang on that big P&N.

But, get it wrong and it might break me...:o
.

[quercus]

Interesting Ferrule on that P&N gouge. Home made or store bought?

[NeilS]

Interesting Ferrule on that P&N gouge. Home made or store bought?

Home made from brass fittings. I get two out of one of these (http://www.jaynovabrass.com/brass-electrical-fittings/brass_connectors/brass_electrical_connectors/brass_electrical_connectors.htm). Cost the same as buying a ready made brass ferrule and is much stronger for larger diameter tools. The brass turns down readily on the wood lathe with HSS tools, mostly with a parting tool. Just has to be sharpened as frequently as when I'm working with Western Myall...:U
.

[rsser]

Just while there are pigeons about I'll throw in a cat ... :D

Ferrules are not always necessary.

I use several bowl gouges of 3/8" rod diam. or less that don't have them.

That said, except for green turning, I don't go in hard and have a bunch of curved rests that allow close support. I don't always use those rests and have done plenty of hollowing with a straight rest pointed inwards with a 3/8" Superflute with not a little overhang and not found a problem.

With spindle turning, unless there's a long overhang and you're using a long and strong spindle gouge, for smaller gouges I can't see why the situation would be different. Esp with detail gouges which have plenty of heft in the body and a full shaft to go into the handle.

None of this applies to tanged gouges, long overhangs or adventurous use.

No warranty express or implied :p

I only write cos the workshop is leaking, both upwards and downwards, the rain is bucketing and the work is stalled :(

[Sawdust Maker]

Just to keep the thread hijacked

I purchased a couple of 12" lengths of brass pipe from my local metal merchant
fairly cheap. 3/4 and 1" if I recall correctly. Works out to be a lot cheaper then the ones from carbi.

[rsser]

and in the same vein ;-}

If I buy I go to here (http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/)

Search for ferrule.

Mike keeps a wide range of diam's and depths; sposed to be hard brass.

Yeah, it' a choice. As always there are a range of options to match the purpose.

[Big Shed]

I usually pick up a few different sizes when I visit the Woodsmith in Croydon, always like to have some in stock and most sizes cost less than $2.

[rsser]

Yeah, Carba-tec's are the most exxy, woodworks' cheapest IME. I like woodworks' for the length range as some get put on bench chisel ends as hoops.