Is VAT applicable in Australia?

[neksmerj]

I am about to purchase a VFD from the UK, and according to the seller, 17.5% VAT is included in the sale price.

Is this a legitimate tax?

I have tried to contact the seller on numerous occasions, with no response.

Ken

[Big Shed]

Ken, VAT is not applicable on sales to Australia from the UK.

I have always had the VAT taken out of the price when purchasing goods from the UK.

However, if you "have contacted the seller on numerous occasions without a response", then you have bigger problems than VAT.

Personally I would be very wary of dealing with a company that doesn't reply to enquiries.

[SurfinNev]

On the few occasions I have enquired about UK purchases, they have always wanted to charge VAT.

Nev

[neksmerj]

Hi BS,

I take your point, however I'm sort of buggered, the UK seller is the only one that has the type of VFD I require. Very interesting that you say no 17.5% VAT into Australia. Is there a Government site that spells this out?

If and when I do get in contact with "Direct Drives", I might need some ammo to substantiate my claim.

Ken

[Big Shed]

Ken, I am certainly no expert on VAT in the UK:rolleyes:

The main company I deal with in the UK is Chronos. If you look at their website (http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/cgi-local/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww.chronos.ltd.uk%2facatalog%2f&WD=er32%20chuck&PN=Lathe_Type_Collet_Holders_for_ER_Collets.html%23a069705#a069705), you will see they charge 17.5% VAT on sales to EU countries only. I have bought one of their ER collet chucks and they charged me the ex-VAT price.

If you can't communicate with a company, it is very difficult (if not impossible) to do business with them. Even if you succeeded in buying from the, what happens if something goes wrong?

Edit: Likewise if a company in Australia sends goods overseas/exports, there is no GST payable on that AFAIK.

[Master Splinter]

Ahhhh, English bureaucracy. Why use 50 words when you can use 500...

HM Revenue & Customs (http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000130&propertyType=document)

In particular (my emphasis):

2.2 Why does zero-rating apply to exports?

VAT is a tax levied on goods and services consumed in the EC. When goods are exported they are "consumed" outside the EC and to impose VAT on such goods would be contrary to the purpose of the tax. Therefore, the supply of exported goods is zero-rated provided certain conditions are met.


You might need to remind them that you are in Australia, not Austria. In para 2.9, we are "All other countries which do not appear in paragraph 2.8."

[nadroj]

Sad but true, some sellers take a somewhat arrogant view when dealing with overseas orders, reinforced by the unlikelihood you'll turn up on their doorstep to complain. Have you checked out the UK Inland Revenue website for info on VAT? Must be spelt out there. I think you'll find that it's a local consumption tax, not payable on exports (except to EU?). There's a bit of paperwork involved to arrange exemption, so it might be the order clerks just find it a bit tedious and like to avoid it if they aren't particularly interested in the sale. The government is in on it too - if you are visiting from overseas you're expected to pay the VAT, then find the HM Customs counter when you leave Heathrow, find your receipts, fill in forms and whatever other hurdles, before they deign to allow a refund if you're lucky. If you've talked yourself into thinking they've got something special, I suggest you just wait and cool down a bit! Several companies mass produce these gadgets don't they? Someone else must have one that'll suit.
I've taken the plunge and ordered an Oz made rotary phase converter rather than try to make one, lazy sod that I am. Wanna wait for my report on how successful it is?

Jordan

[Dave J]

I have never been charged VAT on anything I have bought from over their. I am almost positive it only applies if you live over their.

Dave

[neksmerj]

Thanks guys,

I Googled this subject, and came away virtually empty handed. MS, that's a great start to get some ammo.

My tax question above is a follow up to my quest to find a 240V 1-phase to 415V 3-phase inverter.

Drives Direct UK is the only company I could find with this 2-stage VFD by Teco Westinghouse. If it was available somewhere else, I'd be happy.

Ken

[chalmers888]

With regard to documentation if the shipping address is located outside the eurozone and the goods are going directly from the supplier to the overseas customer they just put the delivery address on the invoice - no other documentation required - its zero rated. Its not like they have to fill out additional tax forms and lodge them.

[Big Shed]

Ken, Teco is one of the biggest manufacturers of VFDs, surely there are other suppliers of this unit?

Have you Googled the Teco model no?

[neksmerj]

BigShed,

Yeh, been down that road and drew a blank. Even sent Teco an email to no avail, in fact, no reply.

Stustoys also purchase one of their units and tells me the part No. is MSD-403-H3F. His unit is a 3HP one. The one I'm after is only 1HP. Stu tells me he had to pay the 17.5% VAT, despite emailing Drives Direct. Perhaps Stu could fill us in on the full story.

I smell a rat with this tax. Below is from their eBay store listing.

All NEW products from Drives Direct(Inverters) LTD come with a 1 year return to base warranty, Please email for more information if a EXTENDED COVER is required on any item, ALL PRICES SHOWN INCLUDE VAT at 17.5%, You do not automatically get a seperate VAT invoice for items purchased via EBAY as your EBAY invoice shows that VAT is included in the total. If you require a VAT invoice please call 01773 811038 and pay us direct via card payments and we will be able to supply you one.

Ken

[Big Shed]

According to these people (http://www.motorsanddrives.co.uk/adjustable-frequency-ac-drive-p-679.html) that is a 3ph to 3ph VFD

[neksmerj]

Hi Big Shed,

That unit is not 240V in to 415V out.

It seems that Drives Direct must rework a standard Teco unit, can't think of any other explanation.

Ken

[Stustoys]

It seems Direct Drives either rework them(doubtful in my option) or have found out that the 415V version doesnt care if it is run on 240V(more likely in my option). But I dont know for sure either way

[neksmerj]

G'day Stu.

You might be correct, the part No. you gave me is for a 415V to 415V unit.

How did you get on with respect to VAT?

Ken

[Master Splinter]

Have you tried Drives Direct by telephone?

Telephone: 01773 811038 or Mobile: 07976 766538 or Fax 08717 334 875

[Pete F]

Ken, a couple of points. Firstly keep in mind it's Christmas and many commercially orientated companies shut down, some until well into January, so this could be a reason for your lack or replies from organizations.

Regarding the VFDs, sorry to cross threads like this, but I had been following your other thread where you were looking for a VFD. Were you able to investigate having the star point of the motor dug out by a motor rewinding service? I understand your particular motor is somewhat special, but it will be MUCH easier of you can run this on 230V 3 phase. As you may be aware, what the VFD does is take your 230V single phase input and rectify it so it has DC, it can then "chop this DC up" and send it out to the motor as 230V square waves, basically just the DC switching on and off. The motor itself helps form a filter that turns it back into a "sort of" sine wave. Close enough for government work anyway. That's a rough and ready explanation but clearly you can see the problem if you need to get a HIGHER voltage out. I'm not familiar with the unit you're looking at, but the only way I can think of is to somewhere have a transformer (within the unit) to step up the voltage. It's probably done on the HF side as the transformer can be smaller then, but no matter it means the unit will be MUCH more expensive, specialized and complicated, as I'm sure you've discovered. Normally modifying a motor to delta is an absolute no-brainer for a motor rewinding company and will cost about 50-60 bucks. Whether your particular motor is more I can't say, however there is no downside to this if it doesn't work. All it does is convert the motor from a single to a dual voltage motor, and you can always simply wire the motor to run on 415V if you later decide you want to do that.

Hope that helps as I think it could reduce the PIA factor considerably.

Pete

[neksmerj]

Hi Pete,

I appreciate it's the Christmas break. I starting sending emails to them 3 weeks into December, and the response I got was this

Hi,

Thanks for your email to Drives Direct,

I am please to be able to say that we are very busy right now with work but this workload combined with staff holidays and the fact that we are also in the middle of moving to a brand new factory and this is causing us to be way behind with answering emails, We will answer all emails in time but we are around 10 days behind right now.

Stu got the same response back in October, however they did come good, eventually.

In my view, a company operating an eBay store as well as a normal outlet, could do better than this.

With that little winge over, I'm really reluctant to pull my Arboga mill apart to extract the stator winding. With my luck, it will be stuck in the head casting, and I'll probably damage it getting it out.

However, if I could, and if a star point could be fished out, the rest would be easy.

Its a matter of paying double the price of a normal 240V to 240V VFD vs some stripping down and some rewiring.

I'm happy to keep the Arboga EM825 totally original, and go with the more expensive VFD.

Ken

[China]

The last item I purchased from the uk (Scotland) there was no VAT however I was charged import duty plus GST on arrival in Australia

[neksmerj]

Hi China,

Yeh, that bothers me. If I kick up a stink about the VAT, chances are I'll get slugged for import duty plus GST.

Roughly how much was the item you purchased and how much import duty and GST did it attract?

Ken

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Hi China,

Yeh, that bothers me. If I kick up a stink about the VAT, chances are I'll get slugged for import duty plus GST.

Roughly how much was the item you purchased and how much import duty and GST did it attract?

Ken

Every UK seller (not just machining stuff) I've ever dealt with has been quite happy to sell me items excluding the VAT. If the items value is under $1000 AU, you should not attract import/customs duty and GST - as has been my experience.

At one stage (around August I think?) I was in communication with Direct Drives about their 240v to 415v inverter, my first email was answered quite promptly (despite getting the automated response about moving factories blah blah), but I requested clarification on a few points, and never heard from them again. Which is why I decided not to buy from them, after all if I can't even get emails returned, what chance do I have of the item actually turning up, or support for it if it does turn up?

I was lucky that all I ended up having to do on my mill was remove the end casing of the motor (motor remained on the mill), and the star point was staring me in the face, making it a simple job to make the required modifications. I then just bought one of those $200 Huanyang inverters from Hong Kong, and away I went.

[antoni]

Hi if your tooling or parts comes in by post most likely no taxs.
if comes in by a freight company you will pay.

Also useing VFDS, Transformers to power 3 ph motors ect.
YOUR safety switch (RCDS) will not always will trip when needed.




Tony

[Pete F]

Tax charged by another country is of no interest to the Australian government, if another country has charged you tax when it should be exempt then it is up to you to chase it up with them. The current situation is that items under $1000 total value INCLUDING FREIGHT will be subject to duty and GST upon arrival, how it arrives here is immaterial. Of course you may get away with not paying, as a lot is just allowed to go through anyway, but over $1K it will be the luck of the draw and you couldn't count on it.

VFDs are unfortunately actually MORE likely to trip RCDs. Unfortunately they have filter capacitors on their inputs to help prevent the high frequency noise they generate being transmitted onto the power lines. They leak some current to earth and this appears to a fault to an RCD which may in itself cause nuisance trips. If not, it will add to the total leakage current seen by the RCD and tend to increase the likelihood of nuisance trips

[electrosteam]

Pete (Post #18),

I suspect a lot of the problem with the voltage doubling (240 to 415) type of converter is that the input rectifier is actaully two half-wave rectifiers in series to get the higher DC voltage.
Compare this with a standard full-wave rectifier for the normal converter.

I do not think they use a high frequency step-up transformer - doable, but that would quadruple the price.

The two half-wave rectifiers run a much higher risk of injecting DC and RF noise into the mains supply.
I have seen comments elsewhere that CE Mark compliance is a problem with voltage doubling converters for Electromagnetic Compatibility.

In the US, however, voltage doubling (110 to 220) seems more available, at least to 2.5 kW.
I have not seen any US sourced 240 to 415 converters.

For my mill, I re-wound the motor to 240 V and purchased a cheap Chinese converter for the same cost of a UK voltage doubler (estimated because I was not able to get a quote either).

John.

[Stustoys]

Pete (Post #18),

I suspect a lot of the problem with the voltage doubling (240 to 415) type of converter is that the input rectifier is actaully two half-wave rectifiers in series to get the higher DC voltage.

I dont understand this. Wish I did. You wouldnt have a link to help me out?


Compare this with a standard full-wave rectifier for the normal converter.

I do not think they use a high frequency step-up transformer - doable, but that would quadruple the price.

My unit weighs 1.6kg, so cant have much of a transformer in there lol


Thanks

Stuart

[electrosteam]

Stuart,

Look at: Basic Rectifier Circuits (http://www.play-hookey.com/ac_theory/ps_rectifiers.html).

The diagram illustrating the half-wave rectifier with two separate diodes shows what I think is being used.
In our case, there is no input transformer, just direct connection of the mains.

As shown, there are two separate loads, RL+ and RL-.
I think the DC output to the switching bridge is taken from the (+) terminal of the upper diode and the (-) ouput of the lower diode.

Note that, with perfect balance of components and bridge software, the amount of DC in the mains should be zero, and the RF noise can be got below the appropriate regulations.
The problem is one of risk due to build tolerances, component aging and software perhaps optimised for other objectives.

Personally, I think voltage doublers will prove themselves in the marketplace and become commonplace in a couple of years.

Hope this helps,
John.

[Pete F]

John I'm afraid your half-wave/full-wave explanation makes no sense to me either. A half wave rectifier rectifies, well, half the wave. A full wave rectifier the whole wave, the result is smoother for the latter but the peak voltage identical. I maintain I can't see how they obtain 415V voltage from a 230V source without a transformer. Stu, if on the HF side transformers are much smaller than you may be accustomed to when thinking of, say a 50 Hz transformer. It's one of the reasons for example 400 Hz is the convention in aircraft instead of 50/60Hz. The VFDs invert at relatively high frequencies so will be much smaller still.

Out of interest this is some information on how VFDs actually work. I used to have a better source on the switching side of things but can't find it now

http://www.danfoss.com/NR/rdonlyres/B07BD285-5895-48C9-AB04-2B0FBED854F6/0/vfdlesson3.pdf

Edit: John, I was simply looking at the circuits you posted but latter saw you mention voltage multipliers. Yes that is indeed a possibility, and a good point. I've seen them used to generate quite high voltages but have no experience with relatively high power configurations so drawing a complete blank at the moment. Been too long since I worked in this field ... and seems even longer every time an odd-ball thing like this comes up. I noted you too changed the motor configuration and it seems little coincidence those with experience in the area all seem to be doing the same.

[RayG]

Apologies for going further off-topic, but since we are discussing the design of the 240v 1ph to 3ph 415v directdrives inverter. I can't see any easy way to get the ~600v dc bus that is required to generate the 415v 3ph without a high current SMPS.

Capacitive voltage doublers could give the voltage required, but high voltage caps are usually big and bulky, a high frequency transformer would be smaller and lighter.

Too much ripple on the DC bus will cause other problems, I would love to get a sneak peek inside one of those to see what design choices they made. Maybe Stuart can take a few pics of the internal layout?

I think I already suggested this before, in multiple other threads on the same subject, but if it was my machine I would just run direct from a 240v 3ph VFD, sure you won't get full torque at 50Hz but running at lower Hz, you won't see any difference. At least it would be up and running...

Regards
Ray

[barkersegg]

Ken, If the supplier of your goods ex UK does not remove the VAT charge and you end up paying it as part of the purchase price, there are several things you need to consider

When the goods are landed here, the VAT component along with freight cost is included by Customs in their Value For Duty - they calculate the landed FOB price for duty and GST - so it's worth your while to not pay VAT to start with when you don't have to

If there's no way and you end up paying it, then you will need to get a separate invoice from your supplier listing the VAT component in the price, they are required by UK law to do this anyway - once you have the goods in your hands here then you can lodge a refund for VAT claim with the UK Authorities...log onto their UK VAT site and follow the process.....as you'll see, it's involved and arduous - though not always successful as it's mainly geared up for tourist and travellers to the UK, not importers.

Once you lodge the refund request, be prepared to wait many, many months for your UK cheque if successful, and then pay a fee to your bank to convert it here....

If the consignment adds up to AUD$1000 or more, (inc Freight and VAT) then you may be required to lodge an Entry For Home Consumption and additionally you may be charged duty and GST.

So I would seriously be wondering why?..........what sort of a supplier would lob it on you when there's no requirement........it's certainly not opening export markets for them is it????, ...........just general comments so hope that helps you.....Lee

[electrosteam]

Pete and Ray,
Imagine two boxes, one with a forward diode producing +334 Vdc relative to the neutral wire, the other with a reverse diode producing -334 Vdc relative to the neutral wire.

Connect the +334 wire and the -334 wire to the Danfoss switching bridge as the DC Link Voltage.

The Danfoss switching bridge now has 668 Vdc to play with, sufficient to make a 415 Vac waveform for the motor.

This scheme relies on having large electrolytic capacitors as storage reserves of charge, one for each half-wave rectifier.
As the bridge switches current to the motor windings, it is pumping charge between the capacitors for the time intervals between re-charges of the storage capacitors from the mains.
These capacitors require a high AC current rating and are large, hence expensive.

The real problem, I suspect, is the currents in the mains.
Each half-wave rectifier takes a pulse of current (of higher than typical value), the positive box in one direction, and the negative box in the other.
The network supply people want an exactly balanced load on the positive and negative phases to avoid DC in their transformers, and the peak currents minimised.

A full-wave bridge is essentially balanced by virtue of its symmetry.
Two half-wave bridges as above rely on component selection, build tolerances and aging to maintain the balance - all factors adding to the risk of excessive DC in network transformers (and, I suspect, RF switching noise).

The high current SMPS (switched mode power supply) would work, at the quadruple price mentioned earlier, with attendant increase in bulk.

Happy to go into more depth on the subject by PM, if desired.
John.

[Pete F]

John, I'm familiar with voltage multipliers, but you hit the nail on the head with regards the size of the capacitors required to power something like a motor using this arrangement. If you have any schematics or block diagrams of VFDs using this configuration I'd be grateful if you could direct me to them.

Pete

[RayG]

Pete and Ray,
Imagine two boxes, one with a forward diode producing +334 Vdc relative to the neutral wire, the other with a reverse diode producing -334 Vdc relative to the neutral wire.

Connect the +334 wire and the -334 wire to the Danfoss switching bridge as the DC Link Voltage.

<snip>

John.

Hi John,

I don't really want to do this topic to death, but.....

Not sure where you are getting +-334 Volts from, 240v RMS * 1.414 = 339V peak to peak, Full wave rectified you get 339V, but with lots of ripple under load.

You still need a voltage doubler using switched capacitors or a transformer.

If you opted for switched capacitor voltage doubler you would need high voltage low esr caps, which would be bigger bulkier and more expensive than a SMPS for the same power.

Regards
Ray

[RayG]

Pete and Ray,
<snip>
Connect the +334 wire and the -334 wire to the Danfoss switching bridge as the DC Link Voltage.

The Danfoss switching bridge now has 668 Vdc to play with, sufficient to make a 415 Vac waveform for the motor.
<snip>

John.

Uh? No... to do that you would need to connect the two bridges together, which would put 240v across two diodes, kerblam!.. a wisp of smoke is all you would see...

Regards
Ray

[electrosteam]

Ray,
The peak-to-peak value of a 240 Vac wave is 2 x Sqrt2 x RMS = 2 x 1.414 x 240 = 678 V pk-pk.
Google Wikipedia for peak-peak - "nearly 3 times the RMS ".

Refer back to my link on rectifiers and look at the illustration showing the two diodes and two resistors for the circuit - no shorts, just alternate pulses of current into one resistor and then the other.

The ripple, of course, is one of the problems that theoretically can be corrected with sufficient capacitance.

Hope this helps, and I repeat my offer to discuss by telephone,
John.

[RayG]

Hi John,

I think I need to see a circuit describing what you are proposing, the only cct I saw in that link, remotely like you are describing, was a center tapped transformer.

If you full wave rectify 240v RMS, you get 240v x 1.414 = +339v dc, putting in another bridge to get -339v dc, doesn't mean you can series the two to get 678v, you will short out the bridges.... you need to have a capacitor based voltage doubler circuit.

I would be happy to take this off the forum, maybe you could pm me a circuit.

Regards
Ray

Edit, for reference, here is a voltage doubler circuit....
http://www.play-hookey.com/ac_theory/images/rectifier_doubler_expandable.gif

[neksmerj]

Since we are all going off topic, and I don't mind as I learn something new every day, I reckon Stustoys should pull his Teco VFD to bits, measure up all the components, take photos & sketch out the pcbs.

We could then go into production, and make a small fortune, just kiddin.

Ken

[China]

Ken to answer your qestion the item was about $2000au Gst was about $200, I will see if I can find the paperwork as I can't remember the import duty, the item was clothing I don't know if the import duty varies according to the product

[electrosteam]

Ray,
The attached illustration from the Section "The Half Wave Rectifier" in the previously referenced link "Basic Rectifier Circuits" shows a "Dual Half-wave Rectifier".

This is the circuit that I think could be used on the input to a voltage doubling converter.
No centre-tap, no shorts, no full-wave rectification, and no series pass capacitor for voltage doubling.

But, there are serious engineering problems, described earlier, all of which could be overcome by good design and build.

Regards,
John.

[Stustoys]

I just paid VAT. As Lee says you can claim it back but it didnt seem to be worth the paper work.

I'll try to take a look inside but I think it has warranty seals on it.

I'm reading the rest with interest as I try to keep up :). interesting stuff.

Stuart

[RayG]

Ray,
The attached illustration from the Section "The Half Wave Rectifier" in the previously referenced link "Basic Rectifier Circuits" shows a "Dual Half-wave Rectifier".

This is the circuit that I think could be used on the input to a voltage doubling converter.
No centre-tap, no shorts, no full-wave rectification, and no series pass capacitor for voltage doubling.

But, there are serious engineering problems, described earlier, all of which could be overcome by good design and build.

Regards,
John.

Hi John,

I think we are talking at cross purposes, because I'm referring to the same source of information that you are, and that circuit is not a voltage doubler!

Replace the resistors with capacitors and it will be, you need to store the charge somewhere between voltage reversals for it to act as a voltage doubler. (edit: and shift the ground point to the -ve side)

In any event, I take your point that it could be done using a voltage doubler, but whenever I have used them in the past, it has always been low current applications, nothing like powering a 1hp motor.

Next opportunity you get, have a look at a 750Watt PC SMPS, (which is of course 1hp) and compare the size of the ferrite transformer, with a couple of high voltage low esr capacitors, and you'll see what I mean.

I guess we will have to wait to see the insides of Stuart's inverter before we know which option the directdrives designers took.

Regards
Ray

[neksmerj]

Stu.

I just did some 1st grade maths on the VAT you might have paid.

If for example you paid $500 including 17.5%, the price before VAT was $430. That means you probably paid around $70 VAT.

I reckon that's worth chasing, extra tooling for you. I'm sure someone could tell you how to go about it.

Ken

[Greg Q]

The following was posted on Practical Machinist by Jraef on a thread by Ken regarding these VFD's. It was made in response to a post I made referencing Drives Direct's youtube video and a comment that Ken made re Teco and one I made re Allen Bradley.

This information should point the way to Drives Direct internal voltage doubling scheme.

"Jraef
Stainless

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Ramon, CA USA
Posts: 1,300

Neither Teco nor A-B "makes" the drives this way, Drivesdirect modifies them. From what my Teco contacts have told me, they buy the chassis unit that was meant for the version that had input EMC filtering (to give them more room), but not the EMC filter. Then they use their own front-end board that has the voltage doubling cap arrangement along with their version of the EMC filtering. It should be noted that this is NOT sanctioned by Teco and if a unit goes bad, Teco will not honor the warranty themselves, Drivesdirect will have to handle it because it is a drive modified by them. Clever idea though, I don't think anyone is doing that here in the US. You would have to be willing and able to take on the long range support for it, I guess they are."

Greg

[neksmerj]

Thanks Greg,

I must have missed Jraef's post. So many forums and sections of forums, it's hard to keep up.

Off topic, how's the Deckel going? I reckon you could start a new post with all those lovely pictures???

Ken

[chalmers888]

While I think of it, not that it should matter, VAT is going to 20% in the new year.

[Greg Q]

Thanks Greg,

I must have missed Jraef's post. So many forums and sections of forums, it's hard to keep up.

Off topic, how's the Deckel going? I reckon you could start a new post with all those lovely pictures???

Ken


Ken, nothing's been happening with six house guests for the holidays. Maybe in Feb when I next get some days off...

Greg

[Stustoys]

Looks like I owe an apolagy to Drives direct.

I'll have to see if I can find the VAT paper work. I remember looking for the clain forms but didnt have much luck, maybe I was having a bad day.

Stuart

[RayG]

<snip>
This information should point the way to Drives Direct internal voltage doubling scheme.

"Jraef
Stainless

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Ramon, CA USA
Posts: 1,300

Neither Teco nor A-B "makes" the drives this way, Drivesdirect modifies them. From what my Teco contacts have told me, they buy the chassis unit that was meant for the version that had input EMC filtering (to give them more room), but not the EMC filter. Then they use their own front-end board that has the voltage doubling cap arrangement along with their version of the EMC filtering. It should be noted that this is NOT sanctioned by Teco and if a unit goes bad, Teco will not honor the warranty themselves, Drivesdirect will have to handle it because it is a drive modified by them. Clever idea though, I don't think anyone is doing that here in the US. You would have to be willing and able to take on the long range support for it, I guess they are."

Greg

Hi Greg, John,

That all makes sense, if it's an add-on to an existing drive, that would be an easy way to get the voltage required for the dc bus, (not as good as SMPS if they were doing a new design.)

Wouldn't be all that hard to make one..... probably dearer than buying one in from the UK tho.

Regards
Ray

[neksmerj]

Ray,

Are you saying it would not be too difficult to make a front end add-on to convert a standard VFD into a 240V in to 415V out?

If so, you have just won yourself a project.

Ken

[Woodlee]

While I think of it, not that it should matter, VAT is going to 20% in the new year.


I think its already at 20% I just bought a Bosch Palm router Kit from Axminster ( 9th Dec) and they removed 20% vat from the price.
Still waiting to receive it ,it took less time to get from the UK to Australia than it has to get from Sydney to me by courier.

Kev.

[RayG]

Ray,

Are you saying it would not be too difficult to make a front end add-on to convert a standard VFD into a 240V in to 415V out?

If so, you have just won yourself a project.

Ken

Hi Ken,

I suspect not, high voltage low esr caps will probably cost upwards of $70-80 each, so it's going to run out to $200-$300, and then the drive need to be modified, it needs to be a 415v single phase or 3 phase input drive.

So it's still going to be cheaper to buy the one from the drivesdirect in the UK.

Regards
Ray

[neksmerj]

Hi Ray,

Some time ago, Greg mentioned a few options for me to achieve what I was after. At the time, I didn't really fully understand the compexities. He spoke about transformers out of a welder.

Can I start with a standard 415V 1-phase to 415V 3-phase VFD, and precede it with a 240V to 415V transformer? On paper it should work, so, if it's that's simple, what am I missing?

I can change a light globe or the batteries in my camera, but that's it. For me it's listen and learn.

Ken

[Big Shed]

Ken, if you would already have a transformer that steps your voltage up from 240V to 415V, why would you then need a VFD (other than for variable speed)?

I wasn't aware that there are step-up transformers.

On the subject of VAT, I read in a UK mag that it is going up from 17.5% to 20.0% on 01/01/2011 (how long before out GST is 20%:o)

[Greg Q]

Fred, he still has the need to go from single phase to three phase, hence the need for the VFD. (Or other means of converting to three phase, such as a rotary phase converter.)

Of the alternatives, the VFD is the most cost effective, compact, quiet and useful of the two. It provides easy variable speed without having to stop the machine to change gears. It provides more advanced machine control functions like soft start, motor reversing and rapid braking. It also allows you to install an emergency-stop switch (or switches) for a more modern safety standard.

415v:240v transformers are around, but seem hard to find over here. They are expensive to buy new.

[Pete F]

I can change a light globe or the batteries in my camera, but that's it. For me it's listen and learn.

Ken

Ken, with due respect, I think most, if not all of the people who have gone down a similar path before are suggesting you take the motor to a rewinding service and have the star point extracted so it can be wired in delta configuration and connect to a bog standard VFD. As I've said before, there is no down side to this, you're not butchering the machine and it can always be run on 415V later if you wish. In the meanwhile with the VFD connected you MAY sacrifice the 2 speed capabilities (I wouldn't suggest trying to wire that function back in, and why would you with a VFD, but the rewinding service will definitely know and advise). Should the VFD fail it's then a simple case of throwing in another one instead of being tied to some miniscule company on the other side of the world who can't even seem to manage to answer emails!! While I appreciate your application isn't as simple as a typical configuration with a separate motor, my background was electronics not electrical per se, and while I had to cross over in various roles, rewiring motors is definitely not something I was experienced in. Even so it took me a whopping 30 minutes to rewire my first motor ... including giving it a good clean while it was apart! Even then I think the 60 bucks quoted by the motor rewinders was still good value.

You mentioned previously that you don't mind paying double for the drive from the UK, I'm not sure what size that is, but I just bought two SEW drives (in my opinion the best there is) in from Singapore and paid each $130 INCLUDING FREIGHT!

Greg and Ray, thanks for posting the information on how they did this, while OT I certainly appreciated the education. I would have thought the ripple voltage would have been too high to make that configuration work and still be able to switch to full required p-p voltage on the "troughs" of the waveform, but clearly not. Voltage multipliers were used extensively to generate the high voltages required in CRT monitors and TV, but they represented a capacitive load and nothing like the loads here.

[Pete F]

Further to the above post, I'm still keen to see exactly how this circuit is designed in, though it's likely I never will. Apart from the suitable capacitor issue I noted above, the other reason I thought they would use a transformer of the HF side is because as far as I see it, one doesn't actually want twice the 230V input voltage!

For those not aware, the power distribution system in North America is completely different to ours. They use a split phase distribution system with nominal 115V phase to earth, and 230V across the two phases (a simplified explanation but it should do). So with only 115V available, doubling that gets your 230V and Bob's your uncle. The drive sure doesn't care where it gets its DC from.

The mains power system in most of the rest of the world is completely different with nominal 230V phase to earth, and being 3 phase and not split phase like North America, we get 415V phase to phase. Why somebody would want to use just a single 415V phase to feed a drive is anyone's guess as you clearly have to have at least one other phase to obtain it, but I digress. The main point is that 230V x 2 is not 415V.

So back to the issue here, you get your nominal 230V, double it and shove the resultant 460V into a drive that's expecting a nominal 415V. ... can anyone see where this is going :no: Now why I keep emphasising nominal? There's no guarantee that the line voltage IS exactly 230V, it could well be on the high side of tolerance, so now you've got >240V x 2 = 480V jammed into a drive built for 415V? Maybe the mob in the UK regulate the DC voltage down ... maybe they don't too and just rely on the drive being overbuilt? Just where I'm sitting the whole thing leaves a lot of questions unanswered and I'd certainly be a little cautious before I was flicking 500+ bucks at this solution. It sure sounds like some dodgy engineering to me, but of course I'm just going on the little I've read here. I know there are those here who have used these drives and are very happy with the outcome.

[Greg Q]

Pete, the various transformers that I have seen in this class are all for industrial solutions, thus made for 220-230-240v/ 415-440-480v outputs. (or vice versa)

Since there are no nominal single phase input drives rated in the "400v class" you'd have to supply 415 active to one L1, a jumper to L2* and neutral to L3.

All three of my 415v VFDs data plates show input voltage as 380-500 volts.

*to defeat the drive's lost-phase error detection.

Also, a hefty de-rate would be required using a single phase power source. If it was me I'd go for a 3kw drive. Hell, if it was me I'd take your earlier advice and go hunting for a star point.

[Pete F]

Oh the drive is rated up to 500V? Ok that's fair enough then. Gee they're rather generous on the specs!

+1 on derating the drive for single phase input. Hopefully the ebay seller has already factored that in but possibly not, 3KW is a pretty big (ie expensive) drive.

I can certainly appreciate Ken's perspective, as buying a drive that can "convert" 230V to 415V sounds like an eloquent solution. But yes, I fear it may not be quite as good in practice as theory may have it. Then again my wife says I don't think my glass is half empty, she claims I think it's like the Sahara in there!! :q

[Greg Q]

Then again my wife says I don't think my glass is half empty, she claims I think it's like the Sahara in there!! :q

You have a glass? Lucky bastard.:D

[RayG]

I found this on line, warning relating to drivesdirect, although it doesn't specifically mention them by name, it's pretty obvious.

It reads a bit like a p*ssed off competitor, who I notice sell mostly RPC's. The major objection seems to be the removal/replacement of the EMC filtering with the voltage doubler. And resulting non-CE compliance..

Regards
Ray

PS. I have a spare glass, but it's only 415ml .... does that help...:) Oh, wait you need 460ml...

[RayG]

Oh the drive is rated up to 500V? Ok that's fair enough then. Gee they're rather generous on the specs!


Hi Pete,

I use a lot of danfoss and abb drives, they mostly rated 380-480 +-10%, they will trip into alarm state on a surge over 550v for a few ms, and under voltage trip at 360v or so, I could dig out the manuals and double check, but 460v would not be a problem for most "brand" name drives.

The American market is 460v ac, I remember working in a cannery in northern california back in the 1980's, and the PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electric) guy came around to ask the chief electrician how his mains supply was holding up, and the electrician said can you bump it up a couple of taps on the transformer... So off he went and bumped up the mains voltage...:) Can you imagine doing that in Australia?

Regards
Ray

PS.. I checked a Danfoss VLT6000 and the Sag trip point is 342v and Surge trips at 550v

[Pete F]

PS. I have a spare glass, but it's only 415ml .... does that help...:) Oh, wait you need 460ml...

You see, just MY luck :doh:

Ray I couldn't get that link to open, but out of interest I had a SEW drive that was tripping the RCD. Their support is excellent and they suggested removing the filter caps, on the understanding it would no longer be CE compliant. Two of the disadvantages with VFDs in my book are the earth leakages through the filter sections, and the annoying whine the motors make.

Edit: sorry Ray we posted at the same time. My point was that the voltages we discuss are all nominal voltages, and if you happened to live in an area where you line voltage was high (not unusual with our "conversion" from 240V to 230V), it's possible you'll be at the upper end of what the drive is specced for. Greg pointed out that's actually 500V so is unlikely to be an issue in practice. I guess it's a bit like having a car with a "red-line" of 7000 rpm. I don't know of too many people who think it's perfectly acceptable to hold an engine on its redline all day long ... well other than my sister ... oh and the woman up the road in the white Subaru!

[Greg Q]

I own a few Allen Bradley servo drives (STILL looking for suitable motors). The documentation makes much hay about their CE compliance. It turns out that compliance is only when installed with A-B motor and encoder feedback cables*, and only when a A-B labelled EMF filter** is installed in the feed lines.

*nothing unobtanium about the cables...shielded, twisted pair. Mouser.com connectors.

** EMF filter is a Schaffner part number.

I guess the testing is too expensive to waste money on proving other combinations; a nice result is that they lock their users into a high mark-up parts count. Unless you want to self-certify CE compliance I guess. Self-certification allows any old Joe off the street to apply the decal, and magically the unit then complies. Unless a higher authority later says it doesn't.

This strategy has been employed by years by a large manufacturing country ten hours flying north of here.

[Pete F]

Greg, what type of motors are you looking for?

[neksmerj]

There's a lot of clever fellows out their, and I'm not one of them. I will heed all the advice given, and try and extract the stator winding.

One of our members has a relative who is prepared to have a look at it, and hopefully extract a star point. The rest will then be easy, and I'll have a VFD that is CE compliant, and relatively inexpensive. I noticed on eBay, there's a drive for around $78, that's bloody cheap. It doesn't suit me, but still cheap for someone.

VARIABLE FREQUENCY DRIVE INVERTER VFD NEW 2HP 1.5KW 7A (eBay item 180515678895 end time 30-Dec-10 04:12:25 AEDST) : Business Industrial (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180515678895&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)

Since my motor is two speed, which windings should I retain or keep both of them and disable the changeover switch. eg, cover with tape?.

If I can't get the stator windings out, then it's back to a Drivesdirect VFD and suffer the consequences.

Ken

[Pete F]

Ken if you're not comfortable with this type of thing I would strongly suggest you at least speak to some motor rewinding companies (or at least one) first. As mentioned the quote I had from one was 60 bucks and while I did it myself I of course had some appropriate wire, heat-shrink and braided insulation in my supplies so I didn't need to go out and get anything. Given that yours is a 2 speed motor and you've already mentioned that you don't feel comfortable with this area, I think even if it was twice that to do the job it would still be money well spent. It's a no-brainer for them, and they can then show you exactly how to connect it up.

There's no reason you couldn't keep it as a 2 speed motor, but I think unnecessary as you would need a 3 pole switch to change it over. Why bother when you have an infinitely variable VFD connected. I'm pretty sure they'll advise to wire it in "fast" mode with all the windings connected, then use the VFD to slow it down.

Pete

[Greg Q]

Pete, I'd like an F-series 2.2 kW or larger BLAC servo (medium or greater inertia in the F-series). I have an H-series 2.5 kW motor now, but it is a low-inertia motor*. I want to run my lathe spindle, hence the need for a higher inertia rating on the motor.

I'd also like a 750w or so motor (could be an H series) for my eventual electronic leadscrew modification, although that's on the back, back burner.

* I need to research inertia coupling work-arounds first though.

[neksmerj]

Greg,

What are your house guests doing while you fiddle on the computer, out in the shed painting your Deckel?

This entire exercise has been very enlightening, I have found out a lot about VFD's, and hope other members have benefited.

Now, how do I get the stator out? Stop, just kiddin, have lots of literature to fall back on.

Just have to wait for the factory to reopen where the Arboga is stored.

Ken

[electrosteam]

Pete and Ken,
When I got my 415 Vac 2-speed 3000/1500 RPM motor re-wound, the motor re-winder reviewed the internal winding arrangement and advised that it was not possible to get at all the coil ends to do any re-arranging.

I asked if I could get it re-wound as a standard single winding single speed 415 Vac Star 240 Vac Delta 1500 RPM.

The answer was that the motor re-winder was not capable of doing the necessary re-design of the electrical windings - all they could do was measure the existing wire gauge and turns and re-wind with the appropriate change of gauge and turns for the new voltage.

I elected to re-wind it anyway for 240 Vac as I was aware of the controversy about the new non CE Marked voltage doubling converters.

The motor ( still 2-speed but 240 Vac) operates perfectly with my cheap Chinese inverter.
What a delight to start without the slightest sound or bump and run up to speed over about 4 seconds.

As I said earlier, I think voltage doubling converters will become commonplace once one of the big manufacturers thinks there is a market for them - and there is certainly a huge market.
The problems can be solved.

John.

[neksmerj]

electrosteam,

Approx what sort of dollars are we talking about? Hopefully I won't have to get mine rewired, just a Y point extraction.

Edit. Just had another look at the Drives Direct eBay store, and at the bottom it states

All Drives Direct products are CE marked and comply with EMC Regulations, the Low Voltage Directive and BS EN ISO 61000-3-2:2006

What am I doing, and who do you believe?

Ken

[electrosteam]

Ken,
Motor re-wind cost was $400.
The converter was $230 delivered (in about 4 days !).
My converter appears to be identical to the one you referenced earlier, except for the rating - mine is the 3 HP one.
I have retained the two-speed switch as it also has an Off position for safety.

The Driveswharehouse site in the US lists Hitachi voltage doubling VFDs (110/220), but only 1 HP in this case.
The interesting thing is that the Hitachi site does not list them.
I am sure that I found 3 HP versions somewhere in the US a few months ago when I was still deliberating on what I would do.

There was a reference earlier to a SEW drive out of Singapore at a good price, these are very good.

John.

[Greg Q]

Greg,

What are your house guests doing while you fiddle on the computer, out in the shed painting your Deckel?

This entire exercise has been very enlightening, I have found out a lot about VFD's, and hope other members have benefited.

Now, how do I get the stator out? Stop, just kiddin, have lots of literature to fall back on.

Just have to wait for the factory to reopen where the Arboga is stored.

Ken

Ken, House guests are now almost all gone. I was only posting when taking refuge from children who find me a fascinating and versatile plaything. Educational too. Why just yesterday they were re-enacting D-Day on my head for example. Later I became a Lady GaGa make-up model.:U

If the Arboga is anything like my Taiwanese clone the stator will be easy to remove-few love taps with a block of wood. Kindly advise if you need help.

Greg

[Pete F]

John, hopefully Ken's installation won't need a complete rewind. Did I understand you correctly in that in your situation they weren't able to locate the star point without rewinding the motor? That seems a bit odd as I would have thought they would need to connect each of the windings together after winding them.

Pete

[neksmerj]

Hi Greg,

I can't imagine you with makeup on, or can I.......pink or red lippie?

Thank's for your offer of help, if possible I would like to have a look at your defacto Arboga and discuss what I need to do to remove the stator winding.

Talking of Arboga's, there is one on eBay at present. It's a model G2508, and looks similar to my EM825. These units are extremely rare. So rare, it's not mentioned on Tony site Lathes.co.uk http://www.lathes.co.uk/arboga/index.html

ARBOGA GEARED HEAD VERTICAL MILLING MACHINE G2508 (eBay item 170583986399 end time 05-Jan-11 20:15:45 AEDST) : Industrial (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170583986399&ssPageName=ADME:B:FSEL:AU:1123)

Ken

[Greg Q]

Ken, the G2508 is the drill version of the U2508, which is the squared-off version of your machine. The G2508 was never described as a mill/drill by Arboga. Sweet drill though: powerful and easy to use with the X-Y table.

Greg

As far as lippy goes, think Rocky Horror Picture Show. It was grotesque:oo:

[electrosteam]

Pete,
The motor is a 2-speed 2.5/1.5 HP machine with 6 leads.
This type of motor runs high speed as two Y in parallel (2 coils in parallel for each leg), and low speed as a delta with 2 coils in series for each leg.

My motor re-winder advised that the only option was two deltas in parallel, that this was not recommended, and that the coil ends were buried so deep that it would be unwise to try and get at them.

As the price of total rewind plus Chinese converter was less than the (unknown) UK voltage doubling converter, we elected to go that way.

John.

[Pete F]

Hmmm, interesting John. I wonder why he suggested not running the high speed as delta in parallel when they run in Y parallel just fine? Anyway, I'm sure there's a good reason for it as these guys are doing this type of thing every day, just curious. Did they say why?

[neksmerj]

Finally, finally, within hours of auction ending, I received an email from Drives Direct in the UK.

They had listed a 240V 1-phase to 415V 3-phase VFD, and I wanted to clarify that the 17.5% VAT was not payable in Australia.

Their email stated that 17.5% VAT would be deducted from the final winning bid. They also stated that 40 pounds would cover the postage. 40 quid, you're joking, that's $60.

Other items they have listed quote $38 AUD for similar 1HP VFD's. Sent back another email to clarify this, no answer.

$40 or $60 was not going to kill me, so I whacked in a bid, and won being the only bidder.

Comes time to PAY NOW, and their invoice still shows the full whack including the 17.5% VAT, and postage at 40 pounds.

Now the fun begins, and am waiting for a reply to a fairly terse email I sent them.

I made the decision to go for this particular VFD as I could not get any definative answers on reworking the armature. Some members think it is possible to extract a star point, some members think not.

If this Drives Direct VFD ever turns up, I can at least use it on my Arboga EM825 mill/drill without modification.

Will keep you posted.