Why you should be wary about medications

[rsser]

If you want to read the full argument by an independent medico then try M. Angell The Truth about Drug Companies, 2005. She is a former editor in chief of The New England Journal of Medicine.

There are two main problems with the private production of pharmaceuticals.

1. It's a business. It takes as much as a billion USD of investment to bring a drug to market so the corporations that do it have a big incentive to promote the drug to get a return and make a profit.

At the same time, about 60% of all research on drugs is done by the companies themselves, and doctors, patients and regulatory authorities substantially depend on this research to make decisions.

What we have then is a major incentive for producers not to be rigorously critical of their own product's effectiveness and in fact to become drug pushers. Corporate budgets for administration and promotion exceed those for drug development.

2. There are requirements that a drug's effectiveness be shown before it will be approved say by the FDA, the US authority. But all that has to be shown is that the drug is more effective than a placebo (ie. a fake like a sugar pill), not more effective than an older drug or a competing drug.

Why a placebo? Because oddly when you give trial participants a sugar pill without them knowing, many will report positive effects when there's no chemical reason. It can be as high as 60% or as low as 10%. In some cases they report negative effects.

So that means a drug can get approval when 40% of those who received it in a trial were found to have benefited as against 10% of those who got the placebo.

So a given drug may work for some patients and not for others and similarly differs in its side-effects.

...

So how might all this play out?

Just one example.

For about 18 months for severe back pain I was taking one of the then revolutionary anti-inflammatories, closely related to Vioxx which was taken off the market when its contribution to increased stroke and heart-attack became clear.

Later investigation of this drug revealed that the trials run by the company showed improvements in symptoms over 6 months but not over 12. The company chose not to publish the 12 month finding. So for up to a year I was taking a drug with in all probability no positive effect and potentially significant long-term side-effects.

...

What to do?

Clearly you depend heavily on the advice of your doctor, nurse or pharmacist as to whether or which drug to take.

But bear in mind that they are often busy, may not be up to date and are also subject to pharmaceutical company pressure. They will get regular visits from reps, free gifts and samples and sometimes free junkets to 'educational' events with food and wine. Studies have been done on the effects of this and show that even a minor gift like a coffee mug emblazoned with the drug or company name can influence prescribing decisions.

The questions worth raising with your health professional are

1. What does the research show to be the effectiveness and any negative side-effects of a proposed medication?
2. Have long-term studies been done?
3. Will a proposed medicine interact with others that I'm taking, including vitamins and natural therapies?
4. As I start on this drug, what effects should I be looking out for?
5. What alternative drug or treatment options are there?
6. Has the prescriber received any benefits from the maker of the drug?

You can readily access material on the web to help to answer some of these.

About a decade ago the stake-holders in Australia accepted there was a need for independent advice on medicines for prescribers and consumers and established the National Prescribing Service. This is a good place to start:

NPS home page: NPS - Better choices, Better health (http://www.nps.org.au)

An excellent but more demanding resource is the Cochrane Collaboration reviews which summarise what the research has found about the outcomes of health interventions (not just medications): Cochrane Reviews | The Cochrane Collaboration (http://www.cochrane.org/cochrane-reviews)

Hope this is of some use.

Declaration: I am not a medico. I have a research PhD and teach a subject on social perspectives on health in a medical degree. My GP once gave me a free sample of a drug and it was that good I can longer remember what it was.

[rrobor]

Most people who take drugs do so not by choice, but as a necessity.
Most of the drugs people take are not new but are old technology that works.
Sure there have been some spectacular failures with drugs but the usual reason for that is peoples need to be totally pain free so use excess quantities of drugs.
I am cancer free due to BCG which is the old TB Vaccine. I move freely due to a combination of other drugs for my rheumatoid arthritis.
Now I do have a very good specialist and I do self manipulate my drug intake with his blessing. It is the minimum I can take without risking flare-ups and joint damage.
Major problems arise where you overdo the drugs. I see the régime of some sufferers in the USA take and it shocks me. Bucket loads of steroids and the like.
The other mistake people make is over the counter stuff asprin etc. These at high rates do damage, there are better alternatives
I am concerned to some extent by Erns post. We should all avoid taking stuff we don’t need, but avoiding drugs we do need is just as bad.
On some drug companies and their practices, I would not comment other than to say it’s a very old profession, perhaps the first..
If you have a serious problem you need a specialist. To my mind the local GP is reasonable on ingrown toenails etc, beyond that seek a specialist.
Last but not least, you are the person most likely to look after you. Use every tool you can to check and double check everything about you and/or your problems.

[rsser]

My experience with Western medicine is what gave rise to that post.

The primary interventions used are surgery and medication.

As Cliff's signature notes, if the only tool you have is a hammer you tend to see everyone problem as a nail.

Yes, GPs are aware of the importance of educating patients about diet, exercise, smoking and drinking and some of them pursue this energetically, others less so.

If you read my post as saying 'don't take medications' then you misread it. The basic message is to inform yourself about them and also about potential alternatives that may be less invasive or have fewer side effects, and make a decision in conjunction with your health professional.

As an aside, there are also many patients who just want the silver bullet they think a medicine should be and don't want to be any more active in their own care than to pop some pills. When this matches the medico's approach and you have big companies pushing the same idea, you have a major health care dead-end.

It's been estimated that the majority of health care costs arise from preventable diseases - many of them the lifestyle diseases of obesity, and cigarette and alchohol abuse. Reducing these involves changing people's behaviour, which is not an easy thing.

[acmegridley]

A service where a phamacist vists you and reviews all your meds and asseses their efectiveness,etc etc is available ,had a visit from one yesterday, being a diabetic have to keep close watch on things like insulin to make sure i dont have any hypos or hypers,dont know whether this service is available to all,quiz your GP if in doubt

[Bushmiller]

[QUOTE=rsser;1272272]
But bear in mind that they are often busy, may not be up to date and are also subject to pharmaceutical company pressure. They will get regular visits from reps, free gifts and samples and sometimes free junkets to 'educational' events with food and wine. Studies have been done on the effects of this and show that even a minor gift like a coffee mug emblazoned with the drug or company name can influence prescribing decisions.

Ern

Congratulations on a very bold and confronting topic. I think in some ways you have covered everything I might have said and a lot more to boot, but I am bound to throw in my twopennyworth :rolleyes:.

Almost every prescription issued is checked by the doctor in the drug company's handbook. Now while you might say this system of crosschecking is laudable (and it is) it also emphasises how tied the medical practioners are to the drug companies.

I have witnessed the junkets. The drug company will wine and dine a group of doctors and their wives and their children. At other times they provide morning tea at the practice sometimes every day of the week and indeed the reps from the drug companies have to book in for the priveledge of providing this tea.

Unfortunately there is very little open mindedness from the modern GP. Indeed there is a deal of hostility towards the natural medicines, which in reality were the traditional medicines. The drug companies from their point of view actively lobby against natural remedies, because, I suspect, they can't patent natural products and reap a fortune or two.

Some of this tunnel vision by doctors is no doubt due to the increasing incidence of mal-practice suits. If the doctor can point to the drug company's handbook and say he has followed their recommendations, it is more difficult to bring a case against him than if he went out on a limb. I think too that too many doctors are all for the easy life and are unwilling to investigate alternatives.

That of course is not true of every doctor.

This all points again to the power the drug companies have in dictating the course of modern medicine. If they get it wrong or are unconsionable, it is passed down the line with the patient being the ultimate sufferer.

I should say in defense of modern medicine that there are areas that the natural remedies just cannot compete. For example if your knee joint has disintegrated no amount of herbs and potions will fix it. Surgery is the final remedy or be confined to the wheelchair.

Enough for now. I look forward to the development of this thread.

Regards
Paul

[rsser]

Good points Paul and AG. Couldn't agree more.

With some orthopaedic procedures Western medicine saves a lot of folk a lot of pain and disability.

I've had minor arthroscopic hip surgery which eliminated one source of my lower back pain.

That said, another source of skewing towards drugs or surgery is the way the Medical Benefits Scheme works in Australia.

Basically it subsidises GPs and specialists. If you want to try other types of therapy then you pay for it or pay for private health insurance and make up the difference.

Happily the MBS has been extended in limited ways in the last couple of years, to midwives, nurse practitioners, and to a few complementary health care consultations if authorised by a GP and provided by physios, chiros, osteos etc.

It hasn't helped me much however. My GP wasn't willing to work out the care plan for my physio.

And what keeps me mobile and mostly pain free in the lower back is the gym 5 days a week and the physio. My private health cover doesn't run to the monthly gym membership fee and rebates only about a third of the physio fees.

By contrast, a good proportion of any PBS approved medicine would be subsidised and likewise for surgery in the MBS; but it's now clear to me after decades of dealing with the issue that those are not the best options. And the research on treatment options for lower back pain has produced general findings consistent with my experience.

Go figure.

[rrobor]

Please understand that there is no such thing as natural medication. Someone descovered that chewing the bark of birch stopped pain and we found asprin The combinations of nature are iifnite, There is a cure for everything if you knew what to mix with what. People go off half cocked with ideas that we have to eat non modified foods, Innoulation is bad etc. Well lets look at facts, Most of us should be dead if had been born 100 years ago. Me, I was dead as an adolescent.
Man has yet to invent something unatural, where everything without exception has origins on this earth.
If modern medicine was bad the trend was for life to be shortened, As this is not so consider that on average you are better off today than yesterday. Understand also, we all grind our own organ due to our own bias or experiences. Listen to the notes, understand the reasoning..
But my final note is one of caution. In every aspect of life the gullable get gutted, avoid being a victim.

[Bushmiller]

Rrobor

You are right on the money.

Many medicines are described as natural, but it is probably misleading. I am not quite sure the best way to differentiate between modern drugs manufactured in a laboratory and traditional medicines mashed up with a pestal and mortar. Perhaps that is it. Modern drug production needs a highly sophisticated laboratory. And lots of money.

My take on this is that frequently drug companies try to reinvent the wheel. They too often do this for purely mercenary reasons. Like you said, if you know where to look there is a remedy out there. Unfortunately they can't make enough money from that.

For example, you have the misfortune to walk through stinging nettles and immediately immediately reach into your back pack for "stinggoes" or "sting ease, but if you know what to look for "dock weed" crushed up will ease the irritation. One product is manufactured in the lab; The other grows wild often right next to it.

That is of course a ridiculously simple example. If you are even more unfortunate and are bitten by a brown snake or a funnel web spider you are going to need an antidote and it is probably made in a lab.

The point I would like to make is that there is no acknowledgement by the medical fraternity that other treatments may work and there is no willingless to embrace such technologies. In fact I believe that a GP is actively prevented from dispensing natural medicine, presumeably by the AMA.

A quick of example : When my daughter was about 10 years old she developed a very angry rash on her feet. The doctors after many weeks of trying what seemed to be every drug known had virtually given up and we took her to a local naturopath, who we knew to have a very good reputation.

She prescribed a nettle infusion (those wretched stingy thingos again) which my daughter could not bring herself to drink. It apparantly tasted too vile. So she made a brew in a bowl and soaked her feet in it while she watched TV.

The next morning the rash was all but gone and after three days it was gone. To this day she still uses the remedy if the rash flares again except nowadays she drinks it as an infusion.

Lastly you made another very moot point. What is in it for the various parties who are pushing their particular barrow? The medical profession is one of the oldest unions in existence and fiercely defend their territiory primarily by singing their own praises and maligning anything that looks as though it could threaten their castle.

The "natural" remedy practioners have not always helped their cause as they have had their charlatans and no hopers too. As always, the buyer must beware.

I would like to see a meeting of the minds from many diverse forms of medicine.

I had better make the ubiquitous disclamer and declare I have no connection to any naturopath or other alternative practice. Nor do I have any financial interest in their products.

I do admit to having taken some of their potions and I am lucky enough to count one or two of these people as friends and acquaintances. I do know also some doctors, some of whom I revere and others of which I despair. I have also taken presciption drugs, which I have no doubt were manufactured in a laboratory.

I feel much better now I have got all that off my chest:D. Except my brain is hurting. Anyone seen the panadol?:-

Regards
Paul

[rsser]

If modern medicine was bad the trend was for life to be shortened, As this is not so consider that on average you are better off today than yesterday.

Mass inoculation is medicine's major contribution to longer life spans but a greater contribution has come from improved sanitation, housing and diet.

And inoculation itself was known in China and India first and was introduced to the West by Lady Mary Montagu.

...

While many drugs have their origin in natural substances increasingly new ones are entirely synthesised.

[rrobor]

No one can give the exact answer for longer averages of life. Farming has improved, food sources are better. Transport is faster. In reality food has improved due to synthetic methods. Artificial fertilisers, weed and pest killers and genetic modification.
In all things we may wish to have natural foods, but in reality these to have come about from modification and selection at an earlier date. Whilst we may eat GM free, the parents of that food was likely GM.
We all have our choices, we all have our preferences and our biases. The reality though is all drugs are synthesised from the materials found on this earth. Whether the synthisiser be a plant, an unwitting animal, or a chemist in a lab.
To select eastern medicine as a panacea neglects the fact that a lot of it is rubbish. Rino horn, Tiger penis etc. In all things there is a broad spectrum from good to bad, This is where we all need to do our own checks and balances, our own research.

[rsser]

Yes, there's been some discussion in the UK about dropping the NHS support for homeopathic medicine on the grounds that few quality trials have shown it to be effective.

As for longer av. lifespans in the West, epidemiological studies support the point I made.

As for these and indeed any other random sample or population studies, all they show is probabilities - how these translate into treatment regimes or health policies targeted at individuals is always a question.

The statistics are often difficult for a lay person to understand. Like, 'did you know that half of the population are below the average IQ??' What a shock that so many of us are so dumb! :D (Confusing average with median, and overlooking the norm referencing commonly used in large scale studies).

[A Duke]

Hi,
Reading all this 2 disjointed thoughts keep coming to mind.

1) How is a GP expected to do better when he is faced with a conveyor belt of 15 minute consultations.

2) The only thing new on earth is knowledge, every thing else has always been here, it's only our knowledge of what to do with it that is changing. Unfortunately there is so much around that we are losing track and I don't know if the computer is helping or making it worse.
Regards

[rsser]

Yes indeed; the conveyor belt is not helpful but there've been some moves to resource doctors better to develop and review care plans and to provide preventive health care.

Would you believe that only 2% of national health care expenditure so far has gone into preventive strategies? When the majority of spending in hospitals at least has been done in relation to preventable diseases.

As for keeping up with new knowledge, one positive is that GPs have to engage in continuing professional development. But given my experience and what my students say after returning from their first clinical observation, we need to be doing better here.

Another positive is that it is easier than ever for patients to inform themselves.

My GP complains tongue-in-cheek that more and more of his patients come in these days with their own diagnosis derived from web research. That prob raises the bar of expectations of his performance.

[Bushmiller]

The statistics are often difficult for a lay person to understand. Like, 'did you know that half of the population are below the average IQ??' What a shock that so many of us are so dumb! :D (Confusing average with median, and overlooking the norm referencing commonly used in large scale studies).

Ern

In fact an average may not even exist. I sometimes think that perhaps the "mode" (I think that may be the same as median, but it is the term I grew up with) would be more representative.

Some figures from way back during the industrial revolution in the UK talked of life expectancy as 17 years for the working class and 34 years for the priveliged in the cities but extended in rural regions to 34 years for working class (read peasants) and 56 years for the priveliged.

Compare that to around 80 years today. On the face of it we have made huge advances in life expectancy. However it is not quite as good as you might think. Death in childbirth was horrendous (often mother and child) and infantile mortality was extreme. If you made it to 20 years of age you were one tough human and you stood a good chance of surviving to your 70s.

It points to great improvements in childbirth and childish illnesses in no small part due to inoculation. Polio, smallpox and TB amongst others were amongst the biggest killers disease-wise.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

[QUOTE=A Duke;1273268]Hi,
Reading all this 2 disjointed thoughts keep coming to mind.

1) How is a GP expected to do better when he is faced with a conveyor belt of 15 minute consultations.

Hugh

I know that this will sound cynical, but to some extent this may be brought about themselves. Is there an element of greed attached to the consultation timing? In a group practice well meaning individuals will be pressured into "conforming" for the well being of the practiceb but others are quite happy to bill away like a mad thing.

There are not too many impoverished doctors, in western countries. The old argument that they went to uni for four or five years and deserve to have a good living does not really hold water. There are plenty of uni graduates on the bread line.

There was a time when a doctor was revered for a man of integrity in the community, but I think that moment passed as the importance of the dollar to them reared it's head.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

My GP complains tongue-in-cheek that more and more of his patients come in these days with their own diagnosis derived from web research. That prob raises the bar of expectations of his performance.

Ern

Interesting one. If a lay person can so easily find a solution by looking on the net, why is it so difficult for the doctor? Is it really any different to taking in your car to the motor mechanic and saying you suspect the vehicle needs a wheel alignment? As with the car, rectification is a different matter.

As it happens, I recently visited the doctor and presented him with a problem he openly declared he had never seen before. In a week I have to go back but after 30 minites on the net I have ascertained the problem, which is benign, (I would bet on it and I don't even have a flutter on the Melbourne cup).

It will be interesting to see his reaction if he hasn't also worked it out. I might add I will take no pleasure from any of his discomfort as he is a young locum and his approach has restored some of my faith in the medical fraternity.

Regards
Paul

[rsser]

heheh ...

In general for anything modestly complex I'd say you won't find a solution on the 'net.

You'll find some ideas; you'll be able to read about prescription drug side-effects; sometimes you'll find sufferer support groups and so on.

With GPs most of the presenting conditions they have to treat are run of the mill. But over time it happens that recommended interventions may change and some GPs don't keep up to speed on this (eg. treatment for peptic ulcers and even antiseptic hand treatment between patients). We should expect better, and at one level we are getting better with the emergence of general practice as a medical speciality.

But in general figuring out symptom and sign causation is more complex than diagnosing a blocked carby jet; there can be multiple causes and patients are not always very good at articulating their symptoms.

One thing that experienced GPs do is take the time to listen, and to develop a style of questioning that is likely to work.

[Bushmiller]

heheh ...

In general for anything modestly complex I'd say you won't find a solution on the 'net.



Ern

I take your point. I will see how I go in about a weeks time:wink:.

I am a least partly guilty on this thread of digressing. It is just one of my failings. Perhaps the common theme is one of ethics and integrity.

So here is a question. If you were actively engaged in researching a cure for an ailment when, completely out of the blue, you stumbled on a remedy that could be acquired for nix would you persist with your dollar gobbling research? Or would you say don't worry about this boys and girls everybody can have it for free.

My contention is that the drug company wades on regardless and possibly they may have even started off with that knowledge.

Regards
Paul

[Master Splinter]

Based on past behaviour, I'd say a drug company would hide the study that showed that 'cheap substance X' fixed 'nasty health problem'; then they'd find the active ingredient in substance X, synthesize it, tack on a few ethyl/methyl/ketone groups to disguise what the source was, sell it as 'Wonderdrug 3000' at whatever the market will bear pricing and keep their fingers crossed that no-one does the research into what the active ingredient really is until their patent expires.

Of course this was found out and there was a nasty stink in the press about it, the CEO would golden parachute to another job, or simply retire, if he thought he could survive on a small weekly pittance roughly equivalent to the average yearly wage. This pittance would be assisted from time to time with small 'consulting' gigs for other companies which would ensure that he had sufficient frequent flyer miles to effectively travel free whenever he wanted to.

They'd probably also lobby the US FDA to skip some of the expensive testing required as 'there are similarities to already approved substances' as well as vigorously slapping patent infringement lawsuits onto any researchers working on similar drugs. All while paying....errr, sorry...contributing to politicians who promise to take a tough stand on intelectual property rights (and/or drugs - if substance X came from something like marijuana or opium poppies, we'd see a massive crackdown on producers).

But I'm not a cynic.....

[rrobor]

To me Erns point is not exactly correct. My father suffered from gall bladder issues most of his life.
Dad researched his condition, had stacks of books on it and spent his time when sick frustrated by the GPs. In the end, he was an expert on the digestive tract, and was proven correct
My son was born with a blockage in his stomach. My wife and I researched that, knew the cure but had difficulties with doctors believing us. In the end my wife handed the specialist our son and said you deal with him. 3 days later he had his operation.
Sister had instances where she passed kidney gravel. She spent weeks researching calcium absorption and crystallization in the body. She now takes half a magnesium tablet per day and it never came back.
I researched my cancer, by the time I got into Peter Mac to be diagnosed, I knew the likely odds and prepared myself. I was asked what I wanted done and I was able to give the doctor the path I wished to follow.
So no, there is a great deal of information available in libraries and on the internet if you are determined enough to find out and smart enough not to embellish or lie to yourself.
But we are all different. Our needs differ as do our beliefs and abilities
It’s not my way or the highway. It has to be your way whatever that is.
I suffer from RA. An Australia researcher found they had great results with some drug they produced, clinical trials were great all was well. A drug company in the USA seemingly had patented an almost identical drug in a search for asthma cures and has this on the back shelf. It sits gathering dust whilst people suffer. I am not religious, so the best I can hope for is the old Scottish saying. You'l get yours Jimmy.

[munruben]

There was a time when a doctor was revered for a man of integrity in the community, but I think that moment passed as the importance of the dollar to them reared it's head.
Regards
PaulYou are absolutely right :2tsup:

[rsser]

Well, half or more of the students coming through undergrad programs are now female. At age 19, when I teach them, those young women have more social and emotional intelligence than the young men by a country mile, and this augurs well for the profession if it's not driven out of them by medical socialisation.

rrobor, I was talking about the difficulty of finding a solution yourself, which is rather more than finding a diagnosis. That's not to say you shouldn't be active in boning up on a problem as well as trying to establish your relationship with a medico as a partnership rather than a paternalistic one. Some are open to this, some are not. In my medical dealings over decades I've seen much more openness among practitioners to this, to providing full information and to making decisions jointly.

As for GP income, frankly given the training investment it's pretty ordinary. There are plenty of GPs in high demand practices who are working their butts off for it. And last I looked about 25% of GPs were on salary rather than fees

To get back to your point Paul and the influences on drug development, yes of course, big pharma has to make a return on investment and a profit. This means discrepancy between patient need and market provision. Why is there relatively little drug development for tropical diseases? Because in the tropics the population is generally poor. Why little advance in antibiotic development? Because taking them may only be a ten day gig. Why so much work on drugs for mental illness, cholesterol control, arthritis, blood pressure, gastric reflux etc? Cos these are good long-term dependency drugs.

[rsser]

Did some digging on GP salaries and my data proved to be out of date (though a lot depends on how you measure).

For a prime-career GP doing 40-50 patient hours per week, after practice costs but pre-tax and pre-super contribution, income is around 220-270k p.a. acc to one survey. I assume those hours don't include consequential paperwork.

...

And the journal Emergency Medicine has decided not to take pharmaceutical company advertising any more on the grounds that it influences doctors prescribing decisions.

[acmegridley]

A point that came up whilst the pharmacist guy was at my house asked me if I had any muscle pains , I do have ,and he has admitted that Lipitor is the cause of this, they have finally admitted it!
So if any of you are on it and experience muscular aches and pains like arthritis now you know the cause

[rsser]

The manufacturer lists muscle and joint pain as a possible side-effect.

See

Lipitor: NPS - Better choices, Better health (http://www.nps.org.au/search_by_medicine_name/cmi/Lipitor)

[rrobor]

There is always a price to pay for everything. Most medications are poisons in some form or other. There is no free ride, no magic bullet, No bolt from the above. Look, explore and understand. Walk in the fog that others know better than you, for you, and you are the fodder for experimentation. You are responsible for you.

[rsser]

Absolutely; scepticism rules.

Sometimes there are better alternatives to meds.

And think about maintaining health rather than waiting and dealing with illness: watch your diet, walk or cycle instead of driving when you can, don't stay in a bad job, work at your relationships.

[rrobor]

Lipitor has been around for years. I swallow one each morning. I understand what it is, its side effects and its benefits. I take it for reasons the government does not acknowledge, My neighbour across the road consumed little else than potato chips for a week to get this drug for MS.
It is easy for those who have not been in the pit to give advice, The pit teaches many things, and removes all biases and follies.

[Bushmiller]

It is easy for those who have not been in the pit to give advice, The pit teaches many things, and removes all biases and follies.

Absolutely. In particular it takes courage and resolve to go against a tide of opinion. Such is the sway of modern medicine.

Like so many facets of life, there may not be even a right way.

Another story:-

A few years back my mother-in-law developed a particularly bad leg ulcer. After about 18 months the doctors were psyching her up to have her leg amputated. We mentioned it to a naturopath friend, who volunteered that he had had some very good results with leg ulcers on elderly people.

It took a bit of persuading as my in-laws were very intrenched with the omnipotence of the GP, but she agreed to pay him a visit.

The leg ulcer responded to the naturopath's treatment and within a month had cleared up. What a lovely touchy feely story you might say.

A couple of years later mother-in-law developed another leg ulcer and returned to the doctor. She mentioned it to my SWMBO, who asked her why she had not returned to the naturopath. Her reply was,

"Oh, I never thought of that."

My point again is the narrowness of our perspective; A state not only within the medical fraternity, but the general public as well. We should all be a little open minded.

Regards
Paul

[rsser]

Yep.

I have cross country ski friends here in Melb who consult an acupuncturist who specialises in osteo work, and they've had good outcomes.

[Allan at Wallan]

I have a grand-daughter, now aged 24, who, for the first seven
years of her life had a condition which her local G.P. did not
recognize.

My daughter searched the Internet extensively, and confronted
the G.P. by claiming the condition was "Pseudohypoparathyroidism".

The G.P. immediately replied, "It would not be that, I have never
seen a case of that in my career".

My daughter replied, "That means nothing. I will be seeking an
appointment with a specialist who may be more helpful".

A female specialist at the Royal Childrens Hospital was more than
willing to study her case. My daughter's research proved correct
and her current medical condition, assisted by suitable medication,
has given her a better quality of life. She now works 3 days each
week, her social skills have improved out of sight, her confidence
has increased and the outlook looks bright for her.

Note: At the age of seven there were only five persons in Australia
with that condition, and two of them were brothers in Sydney.

The message: Be prepared to study the ailments and seek
further medical advice until a solution is found.

Allan

[artme]

A most interesting thread. Thanks for kicking it off Ern.:)
I note with interest the comments about older drugs. I had tried several different drugs to control my blood pressure over a number of years. All worked well for varying lengths of time, and then I would have to change.
One specialist decided to test for aldo steronism. Trouble is the procedure was incorrect and badly administered by the nursing staff. I was told the timing of certain procedures, e.g. Blood pressure monitoring, urine sample collecting was critical. When I pointed out that the process seemed haphazard I was severely rebuked.I discharged myself from hospital and had the GP send me to the wife's cardiologist. He did the tests - properly and found no aldo steronism.

As he works in associaition with Professor Gordon he had acces to a huge amount of research on blood pressure medications.I was prescribed a combination of two older drugs that are still working to this day. In fac,t if my memory serves me correctly, the research shows that this particular combination of drugs is effective "forever".

When in Brasil I found myself short of one of these drugs and asked for a doctor to prescribe it for me. After some argument he did. He was adamant that there were better drugs because they were more "modern"I hardly see that as a scientific approach..

I saw an item on telly a week or two back where some doctor was advocating more investigation into combinations of older and cheaper drugs because there was increasing evidence of the medical and cost effective benefits of doing this. I hope people were listening.

PS.
Remember when the cure for stomach ulcers was discovered? Remember the campaign by the drug companies to discredit the research and the evidence? Just another case of protecting their profits!

[rsser]

Not an uncommon experience Arthur. As I prob said, to get FDA approval in the US big pharma just has to show a compound is more effective than a placebo, not than an older or competitor drug.

Meds for gastric reflux is a good case in point. A new version was developed that was more expensive than an existing one. The only diff. was a minor variation in chemistry that the body itself produced with the older one, but it was marketed successfully to many GPs.

Allan, that's good advice.

Would you believe that one or two of my students have come back from their first observations in clinics to report that the GP they observed is still not aware of the bacterial cause of peptic ulcers?

I'm not into the blame game here. There's been a huge growth in medical knowledge that's hard to keep up with. There's a system of continuous professional development and information provision (http://www.nps.org.au/health_professionals/publications)but in some cases it's failing (true of any human system).

[rsser]

Here's an assessment from a Professor from the Uni of Otago General Practice dept:


A prescriber’s primary responsibility is to act as a
patient advocate. Every prescribing decision should
be informed by joint consideration [by prescriber
and patient] of benefits and risks. The marketing
of new medicines is typified by the presentation
of partial and unbalanced information.

The sad fact is that perhaps 80–90% of new medicines
don’t actually offer much in the way of therapeutic
gain. Information on short-term efficacy almost
always precedes information on long-term safety. We
need a cautionary approach; that sometimes means
saying ‘hang on, we don't need to explore this new
medicine quite yet, for you’.NPS News, no. 43 (http://www.nps.org.au/health_professionals/publications/nps_news/archive/NPS_News_43), 2005

[Bushmiller]

[QUOTE=rsser;1281233
Meds for gastric reflux is a good case in point. A new version was developed that was more expensive than an existing one. The only diff. was a minor variation in chemistry that the body itself produced with the older one, but it was marketed successfully to many GPs.

[/QUOTE]

This is a problem I have suffered with almost daily for a couple of years. I have avoided any medication prescribed or over the counter. It was my contention that I could relieve it by taking a bare teaspoon of Apple Cider vinegar with water, but it wasn't conclusive as if left to its own devices the reflux would go away by itself.

However recently I developed a monster of a cough which I treated with hot lemon and a teaspoon of honey. It helped the cough, but guess what? The reflux disappeared and after three weeks has not come back. I now take the lemon and honey drink every day.

My take is that as we get older the non return valve in the aesophagus fails and allows stomach contents to come back up into the throat. My "remedy" doesn't stop this but the stomach contents are balanced and as a consequence there is an absence of burning.

The irony is that citric acid you think would have a compounding effect. Anyhow keeping my fingers crossed that I have resolved a problem and made a miniscule dent in some pharmaseutical's balance sheet:D.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Ern

As it happens, I recently visited the doctor and presented him with a problem he openly declared he had never seen before. In a week I have to go back but after 30 minites on the net I have ascertained the problem, which is benign, (I would bet on it and I don't even have a flutter on the Melbourne cup).



And the score is

Doctor 0
Bushmiller 1

:D:D:D

Regards
Paul

[rsser]

Re gastric reflux: there are some other non-drug options that folk can try here (http://www.nps.org.au/health_professionals/patient_resources/patient_leaflets/patient_leaflets__and__action_plans2/PPI_patientpad_pharmacy)

Paul, nice work :2tsup:

[rsser]

And there's another useful website for folk who want to inform themselves: click (http://www.mydr.com.au/)

[Bushmiller]

Ooops

Should have looked up how to spell "oesophagus." Still doesn't look right. No matter:wink:.

Regards
Paul

[rsser]

Throat pipe will do ;-}

...

Lack of power corrupts too in my experience.

[Bushmiller]

Throat pipe will do ;-}

...

Lack of power corrupts too in my experience.


Well then...Throat pipe it is and much easier to spell:).

As to the power thing I need to think on that some. Certainly there are places around the world where nothing gets done unless the palm is greased and that is frequently in the lower echelons.

Regards
Paul

[yashinskiy]

love the discussion..
Now here is a spanner into the works.

What about an idea, that nothing happens to our body without our consent,
that a disease and even accidents are attracted by us on some level. Multitude of cases of people curing cancers just by changing their thought patterns and their environments, professional sportsmen retiring from sport after years of playing without a single injury. That disease is nothing but a dis-ease or inability to take it easy. Drugs are just a band-aid(no pun intended) measure and all the answers and solutions are lying within self-discovery.

I am not trying to diminish point/idea brought up by anyone. Just would like to get some thoughts on that.

Alex

[rsser]

Yes, it's clear that the mind plays a large part in health and illness.

There used to be the term psychosomatic illness - one caused by the mind - but that's been dropped from the manuals since it's not poss. to separate mind and body.

And placebos (ie. sugar pills) can lead to up to as many as 60% of those taking them unaware in a controlled trial reporting positive effects.

There was a study done of the duration of head colds with various treatments, and sufferers who saw a doctor about it had a duration on average of one day less than the rest. Those doctors could of course do nothing other than sympathise and advise on rest, honey and lemon drinks etc.

There's work been done on blokes who've retired from high-powered jobs and are dead within a few years, where the variable is the retirement. No reason to live? Too much focus on the self and the body's signs?

The cancer question is more vexed and the odd study I've seen summarised doesn't lend much weight to the value of meditation, positive thinking and diet. When we see remissions we may think it's unusual if the average life expectancy is short; but these are population studies and there's always variation.

I've got family and friends who've 'beaten' cancer over the 10 year mark but come down with it later in another part of the body.

So in short, there's still plenty of mystery about health and illness.

[rrobor]

The idea that we are fully in control of our own destiny is a nice one but can be proven not factual.
Breast cancer in women has a very high instance if they carry a certain gene, It then is both nature and nurture
. Smoke, as I did and multiple ailment are likely. But I was born with not the greatest of bones and had several fractures. This, I believe resulted in Rheumatoid arthritis.
So its a nice thought that positive thinking is the answer, it is not. It is just far healthier than doom and gloom.

[rsser]

True 'nuff.

And cancer is not one disease; it's many.

The fact is that for some illnesses there's no explanation; or not only one. Eg. asbestos-related diseases. Some who got exposed to the fibres got a lethal illness; some didn't.

Sure, you wouldn't want to gamble on it.

[Bushmiller]

Yes, it's clear that the mind plays a large part in health and illness.

There used to be the term psychosomatic illness - one caused by the mind - but that's been dropped from the manuals since it's not poss. to separate mind and body.



I think there is a big part to be played by mind over matter and I believe it does exist. The questions for me are where exactly are the limitations and is it conscious or subconscious.

Perhaps another way of looking at this would be attitude or mental approach to adversity. If you think you are sick, you pretty much are sick.

I suspect the human body has much better abilities to self heal than we realise, but we do not know how to tap into this. As a result we rely heavily on assistence from drugs and other remedies. Possibly all these drugs and remedies do is allow the body to self heal.

Regards
Paul

[yashinskiy]

we know that placebo is effective. Sure it's nowhere near 100%, but there are no side effects, no expenses. Also, now the placebo effect has been extended into the world of surgery. In the book Biology of Believe by Bruce Lipton PhD there is a well documented case of operations on arthritic knees. There are two procedures that are believed helped people with debilitating knee pain: one involves removal of cartilage, another one is what can be simplified as rinsing of a knee joint. Each operation is to the value of $5000 or so and there are up to 600,000 operations like that performed annually worldwide. Three groups were sedated, first two got the usual procedure done, one with cutting another one with rinsing. The third group received "Fake surgery", where doctors acted as if they were operating per usual, but nothing was done except for three standard incisions on the skin and some water splashing. The first two groups improved as expected but amazingly so did the third group. The patients didn't find out about the "fake surgery" for two years and all of them were completely mobile and free of pain including people who had to use walking sticks before the operations.

We love facts and statistics. We love the fact that 9 out of 10 users prefer nurofen, but we hate to see the fact that most of the headaches are caused by dehydration as a consequence of excessive consumption of diuretics like coffee and alcohol, as well as incorrect breathing and also perceived state of stress that is nothing but a choice.
So going back to placebo. We need to concentrate on the fact that our body can do it. And I am not talking about curing the disease, I am talking about not providing fertile soil for disease to grow on in the first place. However, no one is going to do it for us, definitely not the big guys who make billions on us.
food for thought, nothing else.. let's all take it easy :U

Alex

[rrobor]

Sorry I dont agree with that. You are putting the cart before the horse.
People dont go around in gloom and doom in fear and trepidation about getting sick.when healthy.
People smoke and tell themselves "It wont happen to me".
Kids drive cars too fast in the belief they are immune from death.
Only when illness strikes does it become an issue to deal with. Then, and only then do we choose the path we will follow, If that path is doom and gloom, our sucess rate will not be as good.
Cancer is not a disease, it is the bodies normal regeneration of cells gone wrong and the immune system not spotting the mutation. We all replace countless cells each day and create many mutated cells. But usually they are spotted and gobbled up as duds. For some reason some slip through. In the end its luck with a few other things thrown in.
Again, if you believe in evolution, mutation created us. So we should not complain too loudly when it goes astray, normally in our latter years. Is it not the game of chance and the price for life.

[yashinskiy]

Agree. I don't however talk about people being full of fear of falling sick. They are however full of things like anger, guilt, regret and also fears such as of not being accepted, of not being understood, of failure, of intimacy, lack of self respect, poor self esteem and so the list goes. Most of those things will cause stomach upset, gastric reflux, elevated blood pressure, skin rashes, headaches etc. Well basically all the stuff that we are so used to experiencing day in and day out and dealing with with pills and creams and what not. Depending on the level of severity of those emotions discomforts can be more or less serious. After years of exercising those poor actions and thought patterns the consequences tend to be more severe as years go by and the body wears out, turning . All this stuff can be avoided by making better choices in the moment, which can be achieved in the bulk of population through the miracle of education, I believe that's where most of the efforts need to be applied.

Alex

[rrobor]

Your post speaks volumes. It is your explanation to yourself why you wont get sick. Sure if you live a carefree life and do the good stuff etc you may live longer. But man has evolved to do as he does, we cant all live the carefree, someone has to govern etc.
People talking of doing without medication have never really needed it. Try spending an hour trying to get out of bed, then call that discomfort. Try watching a man die of spinal cancer where the nurse had given him the maximum dose and that was not enough.
Never believe that if you are in the pit you wont need relief
What I ask is you make your judgements with the thought that one day that might just be you.

[yashinskiy]

I do not deny medication in any way. Just like anything else there is a valuable space for it in our lives. However bulk of hospital visits and pills intake can be or could be prevented and not through some eastern chanting but through choices that are good for us and freeing ourselves from excuses. Of courses someone has to govern, but it is a choice to do so with ease or not. As you you think, so shall you be. Elevated blood pressure due to perceived state of stress in conjunction with other things is the biggest cause of cardiovascular disease and premature death.

We do not understand completely how we function. So why don't we work on it, so we understand ourselves a bit better. I believe in evolution, and the next step in it is to realize that we are no longer animals, we are indeed higher beings. We got to stop pretending that we have no control of our bodies, we can rid ourselves of emotional and substance addictions that cause us so much grief. In the meanwhile, in many cases, medications are the only way. However, if we want to be in a different place in regards to our health in the future, we need to make different decisions today.

Alex

[rsser]

Just an aside, placebo effects are not always positive.

In some studies the placebo takers have reported negative effects.

[yashinskiy]

completely agree. As well as so many medicines that produce negative effects for various reasons. At least with placebo we are not putting a metaphorical cane toad into our body. Placebo isn't the magic bullet, it is though a very simple indication of power of mind and that is the area we must improve in. Doesn't mean we must get rid of drugs overnight. I think it's a good direction to pick though.

Alex

[rsser]

Antibiotics and vaccines are the big success stories among medicines.

But antibiotics haven't been used all that wisely and we've bred resistant bacteria. Those will become a big health threat; it's said that more Australians die of MRSA now than from road accidents.

[Bushmiller]

Alex, rrobor and Ian

You are all making very valid points and in doing so emphasis the complexity of healing. Then we throw in the secret agendas of the pecuniary multi nationals and we have a very confused situation.

Perhaps the partial effect of the placebo points to us, in some instances convincing ourselves in our minds that we are sick when in reality it is only a perception. Consequently the placebo works very well as it had nothing to fix in the first place. To some extent probably everyone of us is gulity of this. our head cold may seem to be worse than it really is etc.etc.

There comes a point, however when the illness or injury is no longer a mental ailment but a reality. Clearly a broken bone is a reality and can be seen. Illnesses are less well defined and are consequently open to conjecture.

An example is back pain. It is the easiest of discomforts to fake and the hardest to prove.

Cancers and other insidious diseases go to an even harder and less tangible dimension. Some are are miraculously cured and other die within a few weeks of diagnosis.

All very, very difficult: No easy solution; A situation not made any easier by the stance of pharmaceutical companies.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

About 10 years ago I bought the woodworking machines from an old joinery. Jeff, the owner had shut the shop one day and just left it sitting there for many years.

In the interim he was diagnosed with cancer (prostate). They said there was nothing to be done. He saw a chinese doctor, who suggested that he try barley grass as he agreed there was not much else to be done.

He tried it and his blood count returned to normal and the cancer receeded or disappeared. He got complacent and stopped taking the barley grass and the blood count returned to danger levels.

So he started the barley grass regime and once again the blood count returned to normal. Actually it was better than the average person on the street.

Read what you want into this. Jeff was in his early 70s when I first met him about 10 years ago.

Doesn't mean it will work for everyone, but some things are definitely worth trying.

Regards
Paul

[rrobor]

I once read a biography of a Canadian who was diagnosed with cancer and told to get his affairs in order. The Monty Python crew must have read the same book because the guy said “Beggar this, I wanted to be a lumberjack”. After 3 years of being one, he returned and doctors found no cancer.
Who knows what this shows. When you look at a living thing, you are looking at a colony of life. There is a special little bug that lives on your eyelashes, your hair grows mushrooms and your mouth has more wildlife in it than you could calculate.
Is your immune system part of you, or are you its host?
We all try to find reason, but life has no reason. Life is just life, a pattern that happened, and now it fights to survive and replicate in whatever form it happens to be in.
We can point the bone or stick pins in dolls and achieve all sorts of results. Self hypnosis can also work. But the why and how, we don’t know. What we do know is that to prove something worthwhile you have to replicate it many times. That is the tough part.
Snake oil works on the fact that 10% or more it will help and the odd miracle cure will camouflage the bulk that failed.

[Ricardito]

Well! There is three sides of the argument
1 Those young people that take any drugs as part of their recreation to get high. (Once I got addicted to diazepam for over two years)

2 Older people that end up in hospital doctors pump drugs till they blow up. (I was attorney for a friend that passed away with lung fibrosis and heart failure) .

3 Very sick people given drugs indiscriminately to palliate pain and suffering.(My own wife 4 times cancer survivor started with ovarian cancer stage III (dying) skin and breast cancer, agnocarcinoma 2008 and pelvic cancer 2009 (scheduled to die nov 2009)


Off course like in any profession there is a lot of misdiagnosis in hospitals and clinics and it takes more than two to tango. Honeslty if it was not for my intervention with hospital staff and seeking specialist surgeons she in all probabilty would have died in 1991 when she was discharged from emergency at The Alfred Hospital with the wrong diagnosis of food poisoning when in fact that night she was diagnosed with a severe attack of menieres disease (vomiting continuosly and severe loss of fluid brings about dehydration followed by cardiac arrest or heart failure) The lucky starts took me to The Eye and Ear Hosptal where she was rushed to the wards and attended there however she did have a cardiac arrest that night.

I have been there with my wife and we had gone through all these procedures.
At the end of the day what is worth is to be alive with quality of life. She has given up drugs cold turkey (doctors to this day cannot believe how she manages without all these hard drugs anymore she used to take 7 oxycodone 10mg, 2 oxycontin 20mg and wearing patches 50 mili micrograms just to palliate the bone pain Surely these are highly addictive however she kicked the habit right on the butt. I still do not know how she did it but feels liek her body has a natural rejection for foreign substances so the anesthetist told she even was trying to wake up nearing the end of a very delicate operation and him and the surgeon were startled and perplexed how she was waling up so soon

It all comes down to individual needs and reaction and how well the patient manages changes in his/her body.

Overall it is documented that the mind plays a very important role in self healing and projecting attitude, however this is individual thing and I wish my wife could tell me how she fought her battles with cancer but she could not she only prayed and prayed roughly one hour daily until she fell asleep then wake up and pray some more .

The featured report has its origins in the US and does not accurately reflect Australian drugs standards, usage, tests, trails and administration even when large drug.companies are US based research, development trails and administration is not by itself the end of the story. I have friends working in research and development of drugs and marketing specialist working for for such companies flying to the US three times a year surely they have something to say when they get there medicine and drug development is a two way business

I hope this is been of some information to you

[yashinskiy]

We all try to find reason, but life has no reason. Life is just life, a pattern that happened, and now it fights to survive and replicate in whatever form it happens to be in.



I think this is the best we came up so far here. We are bred to believe that our life is for some reason more precious than one of other living things. Fear of death sells not just medications but also insurances, locks on our doors, 6 air bags and well pretty much everything else. Not to sound too bitter, we are going to die one way or another. So just like the butterfly that lives for a day, the least we can do is to enjoy and get the most out of this glorious moments.

When my wife's third pregnancy was terminated by miscarriage I realized that life is just life. It's impartial and absolutely perfect.

Alex

[Ricardito]

I think this is the best we came up so far here. We are bred to believe that our life is for some reason more precious than one of other living things. Fear of death sells not just medications but also insurances, locks on our doors, 6 air bags and well pretty much everything else. Not to sound too bitter, we are going to die one way or another. So just like the butterfly that lives for a day, the least we can do is to enjoy and get the most out of this glorious moments.

When my wife's third pregnancy was terminated by miscarriage I realized that life is just life. It's impartial and absolutely perfect.

Alex
I see perhaps this is why doctors insist on giving the patient antidepressants just because they do not learn to accept reality.
Then again doctors are not in the patient's shoes and they don't have time to be philosophical.

[rrobor]

Depression is not reality, depression is illness. Depression is an emotional black hole that when one falls into, it is difficult to escape. Drugs for this can be the ladder needed for us to be able to climb out, recognize our illness and escape from that pit.
Perhaps you don’t see that each of us must follow the path that suits us. It may not be your way or my way. If it is his way of dealing with bad issues, so be it. We can not fix yesterday, so is it not best if we avoid yesterday destroying tomorrow?

[rsser]

AFAIK there's evidence that meds can help with depression, as a short-term measure. Compared with other remedies such as NLP, vigorous exercise (yes, believe it or not), counselling or psychotherapy, I'm sure the research has something to say.

Long-term use of depression meds can be very trying to wean off.

But the whole framing can be challenged.

For one person the feeling is labelled as depression; for another, just 'down in the dumps'.

Do we really need to 'medicalise' feeling low, or down or lacking energy and interest?

One of the big drivers to do so is big pharma, so they can sell anti-depressants (Google on their efforts in Japan, to export a Western 'illness' as a 'cold in the soul'.)

When kids don't suit our schooling regime, it's been medicalised as ADHD, requiring drugs.

When kids are shy, same deal.

[rrobor]

Again this is a far too simplistic view on reality. For example kids in Japan go to school then go to ‘after school’ and they have to succeed.
From this stress there will be wreckage. Japan also had manufacturers caring for employees, now it’s all offshore and there is more wreckage.
To lay blame on poor mental health in Japan at any one door denies the breadth of human issues and the changes in society.
If we all were clones then we might just be able to understand each others issues. As we are not, there is no simple definitive answer or truth; it is for each, to find his own.
Diet for example is a major factor in school problems.
In UK a study was done and it found that improving diet improved results. Feeding kids a breakfast fixed many issues.
But again that’s too simplistic. Many homes have both parents at work as a necessity.
I have been depressed, couldn’t sleep. Couldn’t trot down the road either.
Took me half an hour to turn over in bed.
I took anti depressants, shocking things, but I got some sleep and weaned off from the bland pills.
We are chemistry sets and depression can be some imbalance. My son as an infant had an op. In the hospital nursery there was a lovely newborn Chinese girl. Her mother rejected her and had for about 2 weeks due to post natal depression. Then one day it was over and happy mother took her child home.

[yashinskiy]

one of the famous psychologists, cannot recall his name now, wrote of an incident, which goes as follows:

He received a phone call from a guy who was on a brink of killing himself. He was essentially looking for something to grab on to as a last resort. After a short conversation the doctor proposed that he needs to do something for someone, even the most trivial thing. The doctor asked if there is anything the gentlemen can think off. The guy said that there is an old lady that lives downstairs and in front of her door is a big mess of old newspapers, leaves and so on. The psychologist urged him to grab a broom and go tidy it up without telling her or anyone else. The man was back in 10 minutes and just by the sound of his voice the doctor new it was a reformed man on the other side of the line.

Doing something for someone for no reward and no recognition takes the accent of our ego and puts towards the greater good. That's when things change.

"We are here to serve others only"
- Einstein

thanks.

Alex

[Bushmiller]

I think this could be an area where the pharaceutical companies are most irresponsible and disreputable. There is no disputing that depression is real, but it is largely fabricated in the mind.

I don't pretend to know how you escape from it. All I can say is that we all have suffered from it at some time, albeit in it's most mild form. I think we call it saddness. From there it progresses to despair and I suppose the final development is depression.

I don't know if any of you have seen the statistics relating to depression in Bangladesh. Probably not. I doubt there are any. They are too busy trying to stay alive to be depressed.

To some extent I feel that depression is a disease of the afluent western world. In fact you have to have a high point to be able to come to the lows.

As such it is brewed in the mind and drugs are unlikely to be the answer. This is not the attitude of the drug companies.

Having said all that I am aware that there is evidence to show that a chemical imbalance also results in depression.

I must apologise to any of you have suffered with depression as I know it to be a debilitating disease that has all the potential to wreck family life as well as your own. It is not my intention to belittle any symptoms. I make a comment on possible causes and the attitude towards treatment.

Regards
Paul

[mic-d]

I think this could be an area where the pharaceutical companies are most irresponsible and disreputable. There is no disputing that depression is real, but it is largely fabricated in the mind.

I don't pretend to know how you escape from it. All I can say is that we all have suffered from it at some time, albeit in it's most mild form. I think we call it saddness. From there it progresses to despair and I suppose the final development is depression.

I don't know if any of you have seen the statistics relating to depression in Bangladesh. Probably not. I doubt there are any. They are too busy trying to stay alive to be depressed.

To some extent I feel that depression is a disease of the afluent western world. In fact you have to have a high point to be able to come to the lows.

As such it is brewed in the mind and drugs are unlikely to be the answer. This is not the attitude of the drug companies.

Having said all that I am aware that there is evidence to show that a chemical imbalance also results in depression.

I must apologise to any of you have suffered with depression as I know it to be a debilitating disease that has all the potential to wreck family life as well as your own. It is not my intention to belittle any symptoms. I make a comment on possible causes and the attitude towards treatment.

Regards
Paul

There is a high prevalence of mental illness and depression in Bangladesh (rural areas at least). It is not a disease of affluence. It is a disease of the mind. It took 15 seconds to find scholarly articles relating to this fact using google.

Cheers
Michael

[Bushmiller]

There is a high prevalence of mental illness and depression in Bangladesh (rural areas at least). It is not a disease of affluence. It is a disease of the mind. It took 15 seconds to find scholarly articles relating to this fact using google.

Cheers
Michael

Excellent. I am glad people are thinking this through. :wink: I actually did no research (no seconds). I could have chosen almost any community outside the western world. My point is that it is in the mind. You appear to agree with that, although I would suggest that the incidence in the western world is indeed higher. No doubt some research would verify that:D.


Regards
Paul

[mic-d]

Excellent. I am glad people are thinking this through. :wink: I actually did no research (no seconds). I could have chosen almost any community outside the western world. My point is that it is in the mind. You appear to agree with that, although I would suggest that the incidence in the western world is indeed higher. No doubt some research would verify that:D.


Regards
Paul

I should have chosen my words more carefully, it is a disease of the brain and brain chemistry, I did not intend to mean mind in the sense of one's consciousness.

Cheers
Michael

[yashinskiy]

There were some advanced research on raise of depression and suicide rates in third world countries with the advance of western culture or what we used to call it in Russia: the Hollywood culture. Everything is learned in comparison. Monsters of marketing have perfected the ways of stroking our ego the right way and hooking us up on materialism and addictions. Westerners are very much used to it but the eastern folk especially, is like ants to Antrid. Try to explain them that tea ceremony is cooler than Coke

[rsser]

Here's a summary of research on the use of alternative and complementary medicine interventions in the treatment of major depression: click (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20573326)

I'm still digging for a comparison with anti-depressant pharmaceuticals. Must be out there.

Added: this (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20431115)goes some of the way. And this (http://www.nps.org.au/health_professionals/publications/nps_news/archive/NPS_News_11).

And another review found a 1 in 4 success rate of anti-depressant meds controlling for placebo.

[rsser]

I should have chosen my words more carefully, it is a disease of the brain and brain chemistry, I did not intend to mean mind in the sense of one's consciousness.

Cheers
Michael

There is alteration in brain chemistry yes, but does it precede or succeed altered mood and other symptoms? Or coincide with it due to an independent third factor?

It seems that with mild to moderate depression, counselling can be as effective as medicines, so in those cases thoughts and feelings must be changing brain chemistry for the better, and therefore it's reasonable to assume that they can change it for the worse.

This means that for those forms of depression, the causation is psycho-social. The experience is psycho-social, and brain chemistry as measured may be just a sign.

And the emphasis on treating signs and symptoms is one of the major limitations of Western medicine in my book.

[mic-d]

There is alteration in brain chemistry yes, but does it precede or succeed altered mood and other symptoms? Or coincide with it due to an independent third factor?

It seems that with mild to moderate depression, counselling can be as effective as medicines, so in those cases thoughts and feelings must be changing brain chemistry for the better, and therefore it's reasonable to assume that they can change it for the worse.

This means that for those forms of depression, the causation is psycho-social. The experience is psycho-social, and brain chemistry as measured may be just a sign.

And the emphasis on treating signs and symptoms is one of the major limitations of Western medicine in my book.

quite so.

Cheers
Michael

[rrobor]

To me, understanding depression is easy. It is not a disease, purely an imbalance.
We need the highs, love happiness etc. they help us find partners and reproduce.
But we need normality to do the daily chores. That is what our own internal chemistry set produces.
In people with Bipolar disorder their swings are greater than average; their highs are beyond what most of us will ever know. History gives us Boris Yeltsin, Napoleon, Nelson and Alexander the Great suffering this. But their lows drive them to drugs or drink to numb the pain of life.
There is no fix. You can take pills and have a bland flat life, or perhaps accept them as a crutch to relieve a pain that passes. But you have to accept without the lows, there are no highs. The pendulum dictates that.
Accept that you will not fly so high as some. Your bonus is you are unlikely to fall into that depth of depression.

[chambezio]

I don't know how this will read when I am finished but at the moment it seems opportune
I have been treated for depression for the last 20 years.and now in the last 18 months they have decided to treat me with Bipolar. I take 2 kinds of antidepressants which leave me feeling flat. I have no incentive to do anything and if I can start something can't wait till its finished. I have had to give up work (7 years now). I am really frustrated because I have the time, a big shed full of tools and machinery, a lot of material and a heap of projects and techniques to develop.......but can't be bothered!!! I am tired all the time.
Luckily we only owe a little bit of money but its still hard to manage on a Disability Pension.
I tried Cognitive Therapy but I found it was too hard to think about every thing you would say or do before you did it.
I find my mind relives things from the past and the old feelings come to the surface. The only time I get out is to do the groceries with the wife(who also has long term depression). I don't like crowds and cringe when I might bump into some one that I know and have to tell them "how I am". DO you lie or tell them the boring truth?
I recently went on to new medication but it proved to make my symptoms worse so had to change back. (That was right at Christmas so it was not good)
The meds are restricting my moods OK. I am nonplussed about about everything and everything seems BLAND
Yes its a bugger

[Bushmiller]

Rod

That all sounds so debilitating. I feel sure that if you have suffered for 20 years, it is a measure of your frustration and despair that you should even talk about it. I hope it helps you.

Not being qualified to discuss such matters in anything other than general terms, I won't, except to say don't give up. It must be hard particularly with your wife suffering in a similar way too.

Have you only been under medical treatment or have you been driven also to "alternative" therapies? I feel bound to ask you this having regard to the original nature of Ern's thread. Don't feel obliged to respond in detail as this is tending towards a personal level. Only what you are comfortable with.

We keep digressing with this thread, but it is a broad concept. However it all comes back to prescription drugs, their consequences and the integrity of the manufacturers.

Regards
Paul

[rsser]

CBT works for some and not for others. There are other counselling approaches you could explore.

You need expert advice it seems of a type differing from what you've been getting, particularly if you want to reduce the meds. Speak to your GP about a process called 'stepping down' in conjunction with counselling from a registered psychologist or psychiatrist.

[rrobor]

Having suffered once when life seemed to turn against me, I know how easy it is to sink into the depth and how hard it is to escape. For me pills were not my answer, I used them as a crutch and was glad to throw them away the second I could.
Talking to doctors would not have done it for me either. I would have found that false. Eyes watching the clock, or so it would seem to me.
My strength is me, I look at me, I write it down and check to see if I lie about me.
In knowing me, I can control my ailments better.
But that is me not you. I honestly don’t care what people think. People ask how you are but don’t really want to know. If they asked me Id tell them about the pimple on my backside, they wont ask again.
So my advice is do what you did here. After you wrote your post, you felt that tiny bit better for it. Build on that, its worth a try.

[rsser]

Someone who's disabled by depression and has been so for a long time will almost certainly need more help than they're getting.

GPs are not trained to provide expert counselling or pyschotherapy; to become psychiatrists postgrad training is required. But in my view a good counselling psychologist is likely to be a better option; regrettably the medicare rebate on their fees is limited to a few sessions that have to be recommended by a GP.

How do you find a good one? Ask around. See if there's a support group for depression sufferers in your area. Read up on counselling approaches on the web.

Yes, all this takes energy so it's one step at a time as rrobor says.

[rrobor]

Counseling may work for some, but not for all. When you break it down to its roots, counseling is only somebody else looking at you the way you have not done for yourself.
Ultimately you are the one who succeeds or fails.
You do not get a disability pension handed to you without a great deal of red tape. Even then, you can expect to be watched and monitored by big brother. Been there done that.
So has our friend here been through all of that? You bet he has.
My cure was Microsoft Word. I wrote it all out then stood back and read it. The marvel of doing this in Word is you can delete and try again as many times as needed.
I don’t say I am correct, its not that simple. What I do say is this worked for me. It broke me out of depression and it allows me to control the discomforts of arthritis and for a time, cancer.

[rsser]

That's good news.

But when you look at the side effects of going off long term depression meds, they are ugly and the process should be medically supervised. At the same time it's likely that Rod would need a 'cheer squad' to support him through this process, and with a bit of effort he can find a cheer squad who doubles as a coach.

Rod also has a depressed wife; that's not surprising since depression is catching.

[rrobor]

Oh no, no way did I, or would I suggest Rod cuts and runs from his pills. The body tends to compensate for any medication so a rapid halt could be a leap into the unknown.
Rod told us he is a quiet bloke, he cares what others think of him, and to some extent he feels ashamed of the situation he finds himself in.
To be quite frank Rod position is rather similar to where I was. He hears people scream "Welfare cheats". and there he is on welfare. You have to be in that position looking out to understand why its easier to remove yourself from people and shrink deeper into your hole.
For me Therapy or cheer squads would not work, its not my style and my feeling is, its not Rods.
But that is his choice. The famous R D Laing did some wonderful programs years ago and was very successful, He believed in Rebirthing
Rods post was a large step for him, it allowed him an outlet into the general stream. And the posts here will also help to show him he is not alone and only the ignorant are there to condemn.

[chambezio]

I have just read through all the threads from the beginning and apologize for digressing from the original theme.
But THANK YOU for your kind and understanding words regarding my situation!
Being on meds for so long now, and feeling like a guinea pig for a lot of the time,with a doctor prescribing a change and when you report back that they make you feel sick or what ever and he says "Oh, that's no good....take more'.
I was seeing a psychiatrist but then one by one they all either retired or moved out of town and left the town to be serviced by only a small number who would fly in and only look after the real "nutters" so I was then referred back to the GP and his "conveyor belt" (I like that analogy) I feel that I have been pushed into a back water mainly because I can't "buy" myself out as Medicare is limited in its assistance.
From what you fellas have said, would it be a proposition to try a naturpath?
I have played around with the meds I'm on a little but have had to always end up on the original levels
And yes it does feel a little bit of a relief to write down my thoughts

[rrobor]

For my rheumatoid arthritis I read a book that stated it was a food alergy, you just had to find out what food. Seemingly the food fewest people have trouble with is boiled cod and boiled spud.
I lasted 5 days before even the smell of that made me retch. Another stated that Apple cider vinigar was the answer, Didnt help me but my old mum swore by the stuff for ostio.
So my answer to your question is easy, the more you get involved with helping to cure yourself the greater will be your sucess. Try anything, try everything, Read up on it, talk about it, write about it.
Trying something and finding it doesnt work is better than not trying.
Lastly there may be times you may need to scream at someone, just to let it go,. Some religions have that, you write a message and then you burn it to send it to the Gods.
We dont have that so I give you my Emal address, [email protected] Sorry Im not a God. Im just an unknown person in cyberspace. Im sure if needed the others will suppiy links. Rob