Constructing a wine cellar?

[ribot]

I guess the obvious construction method would be to dig a hole under the house line it for water proofness and then concrete the walls in, however does anyone have a different slant on this problem?
The bro/inlaw suggested buying large circumference waterpipe burying them in the ground and there you have it. What do you think?

[jackiew]

Think about access and security ... you probably want access to be internal... don't believe you really want to go outside and crawl under the house when its pouring with rain and you've already had a few drinks? And you probably don't want next doors kids getting under the house and helping themselves either ... hic!

[MikeK]

Ribot,

The key to storing wine is stable temperature (14 to 18 degress C) and humidity (50% and 70%). Direct sunlight is not desirable either. When I built my cellar asthetics were important to me because it is accessed from the inside of my home. You can then have a professional cooling system installed that takes care of the temp & humidity.

Have a look at this site: http://winecellardesignsaustralia.com

I am not affiliated in any way.

BTW - I agree with Jackie. However, you could dig under the floor of an existing room and put a trapdoor + steps down to the cellar. I have seen this done very effectively.

Regards,
Mike.

[ribot]

Thanks guys, the wine cellar fridge is a good idea but I think in the end I'm going to have to crawl under that house and start curing and digging. Hope someone can come up with another alternative.

[journeyman Mick]

Ribot,
don't forget about the termites! Whatever you do under there make sure it doesn't compromise any termite control barriers. There may be strong termiticides in the soil under your house which could make you very sick if you dig around down there. Also your cellar might form a "bridge" through which termites can enter the building.

Mick

[ribot]

Thanks Mick, worthwhile keeping those little buggers in mind as well as the chemicals. Taken on board thanks

[Tools]

I was reading somewhere in the past week about a company that is making precast concrete wine cellars.Dig a hole and drop em in.I didn't read the whole thing,but I think they had a web site,so I am sure you could google it up.

Tools

[kiwigeo]

Another option...move to the Adelaide Hills. I have a bedroom in my house which never gets over 15 deg C even during the summer. There is one story that the room is occupied by the ghost of the first owner of the house....the old girl was obviously fond of a drop and looks after my plonk.

[himzol]

Another option...move to the Adelaide Hills. I have a bedroom in my house which never gets over 15 deg C even during the summer.

Yep - at the moment we have to put the wine in the fridge to get it warm enough to drink :rolleyes: :D :D

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Digging out under the house is not a task to take on lightly; any movement in stumps/slab can cost more in repairs than the whole cellar may have cost including stocking it. If I were you I'd get a couple of pros to come in and give me quotes... also pumping them for info on exactly how they're approaching the problem. Not only to assure myself they're not backyard cowboys but to possibly give me a new take on the problem which I could do myself. ;)

In the meantime, I'd also be looking into how much it costs to go the "hole in the backyard" route. If you could build it close enough to the house, it wouldn't take much to add a covered stairwell from the side of the house for access, possibly incorporating it into a shed extension? http://members.optusnet.com.au/%7Eamcardle60/Smilies/innocent.gif

With a range of quotes and hopefully a few new ideas, then I'd be ready to reach for a shovel...

[Carpenter]

Don't underestimate water. I know of a wine cellar that flooded completely after being built. The owners came home to find water lapping 300mm below the floor framing, so just be careful you don't make a swimming pool.

[kiwigeo]

Yep - at the moment we have to put the wine in the fridge to get it warm enough to drink :rolleyes: :D :D

Talked to the wife tonight and she reckoned it was freezing in Stirling this morning. Not too bad up here in the Timor Sea...a steady 23 most days with a light breeze from the north. Trying to make this job drag out untill spring...

[Dr Dee]

Ribot,
This one is close to my heart. I have had just about every form of wine keeping space in the houses I have owned and renovated over the years - classic underground cellar to glorified cupboard.

The underground option is really only viable if you have a naturally large starting space underneath or you are prepared to spend serious money/time. How much space do you have outside? Could you add a small extension along an outside wall? The other option is to find a wall in a room that you can afford to loose say 1m off in length. I used cool room insulation panels on the wall since it was external. Then built a false wall which was mostly doors with no door furniture and catches that released when pressed in. Put some fire resistant insultation on the back of the doors and shelving as it suits you. You do not have to be paranoid - as Mike said temparature stability is the key - avoid rapid temperature changes but limit the upper temperature. A large stack of wine bottles in an enclosed space has a large thermal capacity and will naturally slow down change.

A 3m to 4m section of wall, stacked full height holds a lot of bottles. Avoid those individual bottle type racks - too much lost space. I make mine in diamond shaped holes, big enough to hold a dozen bottles, with the corners top-bottom - left-right. This means things stack nicely and efficiently, and no problem with last bottle or so rolling around as will occur with horizontal shelves.

Hope this gives you ideas. Whatever you do buy one of those electronic weather stations ~$50 which tracks temp & humidty - lets you see max & min and gives you the info to know if you have problems. Most problems have a solution which most sensibly is linked to the acquisition of a new gadget!

cheers

[Simomatra]

Depending on how much you want to store.

I use under the internal staircase for the quaffers and semi good wine. Old earthen ware pipes make a good holder and also help control the temperature

I store any good stuff in a Dome Thermoelectric wine cooler Model C62081. They hold 24 bottles each and control the temperature and humidity even on the hottest Ipswich days.

Purchased from K-Mart on special at about $220 each. Have not lost a bottle since

They have a control to set for either white or red wine.

Enjoy wine in moderation. Heh heh!!

Sam

[Jack E]

I store any good stuff in a Dome Thermoelectric wine cooler Model C62081. They hold 24 bottles each and control the temperature and humidity even on the hottest Ipswich days.

Purchased from K-Mart on special at about $220 each. Have not lost a bottle since

I have two of the dome thermoelectrics.
I purchased them because after a bit of research I found out that keeping a wine in a fridge which uses a compressor has its problems. Namely that the vibration from the compressor (minimal) can be a cause of the wine not remaining settled, which will affect the ageing process.
The other problem with refrigerated systems, including an air conditioned room, is that they will remove the humidity from the fridge or room, this is what they are designed to do. This can then cause the cork to dry, it will no longer form a reliable seal and you could lose your wine.
I am seriously considering the purchase of an uppermarket storage fridge. The two domes I have don't hold enough wine and they also can't keep up with the high ambient temperatures in Townsville.
Or I could just drink more wine :)

[Simomatra]

I have two of the dome thermoelectrics.
I purchased them because after a bit of research I found out that keeping a wine in a fridge which uses a compressor has its problems. Namely that the vibration from the compressor (minimal) can be a cause of the wine not remaining settled, which will affect the ageing process.
The other problem with refrigerated systems, including an air conditioned room, is that they will remove the humidity from the fridge or room, this is what they are designed to do. This can then cause the cork to dry, it will no longer form a reliable seal and you could lose your wine.
I am seriously considering the purchase of an uppermarket storage fridge. The two domes I have don't hold enough wine and they also can't keep up with the high ambient temperatures in Townsville.
Or I could just drink more wine :)

Jack E is correct that is the same reasons I went to the Dome.

You will just have to drink more Jack

Cheers sam

[Dome]

My new Dome C62081 takes forever to cool down and doesn't appear to want to go below 14 degres. Any one else had that problem.

[Gumby]

From what I've seen when people dig under a house, particularly when they go below the water table, well, just don't do it. Like one of the posts above, a lovely indoor pool.

Besides, why store wine. I never keep it long enough to worry about it. :D

[bennylaird]

If you want some great wines at great prices to fill your cellar PM me.

[BrisBen]

I might not have the biggest collection of wine - I just buy the stuff I like and see how well it goes over the years (even got a couple of those Hahn Millenium Ale in the champagne bottles)

I wasnt quite sure how to keep it in a stable environment.

Around here once a year the council lets you put all sorts of junk on the street for them to collect..

I picked up a fridge of quite a reasonable size that was just left on the footpath - had an air-con mate remove the gas and screwed a couple of extra shelves in - works fine to me - no sunlight, fairly regulated temperature from the in built insulation (its under the house as well) and the bottles don't get disturbed until I choose one

Works for me

[pharmaboy2]

I have just about completed a new laundary, and am going to put a cellar underneath it, because floor has cement + cement sheet and tiles, it should hold temp well, The floor under the house is concrete, the back wall is double brick, and front brick veneer with entry.

To further keep temp constant, i am blocking off the main air flow, with insulation on the outer side of a concrete block wall (just sitting blocks - not cemented in). This is supposed to be the most efficient for temp regulation, ie lightweight exterior, insulation, then a concrete/brick etc mass on the inside -ie an inside out brick veneer construction is best for holding temp.

testing of what I have shows 24 degree temp on a 40 degree day, previous day 38 night 26 - so I just need to knock off a couple more degrees I'd say.
Final idea I've seen used is a big drum full of water - provides thermal mass, of course it can only get you down to overall average summer temp - fine for Aussie wines with plenty of headspace, a bit too warm for euro wines.

[woodbe]

I have just about completed a new laundary, and am going to put a cellar underneath it, because floor has cement + cement sheet and tiles, it should hold temp well, The floor under the house is concrete, the back wall is double brick, and front brick veneer with entry.

To further keep temp constant, i am blocking off the main air flow, with insulation on the outer side of a concrete block wall (just sitting blocks - not cemented in). This is supposed to be the most efficient for temp regulation, ie lightweight exterior, insulation, then a concrete/brick etc mass on the inside -ie an inside out brick veneer construction is best for holding temp.

testing of what I have shows 24 degree temp on a 40 degree day, previous day 38 night 26 - so I just need to knock off a couple more degrees I'd say.
Final idea I've seen used is a big drum full of water - provides thermal mass, of course it can only get you down to overall average summer temp - fine for Aussie wines with plenty of headspace, a bit too warm for euro wines.

If you're going to dig, you might as well dig deeper. Once you get a couple of metres down, you should be close to 15 degrees year round. Just ask any caveman :)

[tomcat]

I designed and built a number of homes for clients who wanted wine cellars. We found the most economical way was to drop a 22,500 litre (5,000 gallon) concrete tank into a hole and then build the house over the top. This is similar to your brother in law's suggestion but it would be impossible to use this type of approach in an existing home.
When building a sealed cellar, it is essential to drain subsurface water away from the ground outside the cellar. Failure to pay careful attention to this will have two possible alternative consequences, a flooded cellar or a floating cellar - both are bad but the floating cellar is worse as it damages the house.

However, in your case, I think you might be better off to go for a leaking cellar and install a wet sump in a sloping floor, with an automatic pump to keep it dry.

I would speak to an engineer to have it designed. The cost of repairing possible damage to your house that might be caused by bad design would well exceed the design cost.
I anticipate that the amount of work involved will be a deterrent - unless you have a lot more energy than the average human. I reckon it will go something like this.
1. cut a hole in your floor slab, (assuming it is concrete), that is about 400mm bigger in each direction than the cellar.
2. excavate an edge beam 600mm deep under the perimeter of the hole in the floor slab. Undermine the floor slab by about 400mm so that the slab rests on the new beam that you are going to pour, and make the beam say 600mm. wide. (I.E. 200mm. of the beam will be available for the eventual support of the cellar roof.) I won't go into detail about the dowels that you will need - the engineer will give you that sort of detail.
3. Excavate the cellar about 300mm larger (in each direction) than finished size , shoring it up as you go.
4. When you reach about 1 metre from the bottom, start to angle outwards so that when you reach 200mm above the bottom floor level, you have a hole that is 500mm bigger than the cellar in each direction.
5. install your drainage system - a sump in the floor and a drain in the perimeter - agricultural drainage pipe wrapped in geotextile fabric.
6. Pour your concrete slab in the bottom, (are you feeling tired yet?)
7. start building the walls - make it cavity concrete bloack twin 90mm, with a 100mm concrete cavity reinforced with vertical y12 rods at 200mm. centres that are joined to starter bars coming out of the slab - plus a mesh reo as well.
8, As the walls build up in height, paint the back of the blocks with damproof material - backfill behind with coarse sand. and fill the cavity with concrete.
9. when you get to the top, the walls should support the outer 100mm edge of the perimeter beam that you poured.
10. pour your top slab on bondek - minus the stairwell.

There you go - 10 easy steps to a wine cellar that will double as a bomb shelter.

As for termites - I'd be getting one of the experts to give you the low down.

[Driver]

Stable and consistent temperature and lack of sunlight exposure are the keys to wine storage.

When I designed and built this house 17 years ago, I incorporated a corridor from the living areas to the bedroom areas that has no external walls. Consequently, even in Perth's hot summers and occasionally chilly winters, this area has relatively stable temperatures - around 15 to 20 deg C.

The corridor has two long cupboard spaces - floor to ceiling height, 3 metres long and 750 mm deep. One of these now provides storage space for about 200 bottles of the fruit of the vine. The wine keeps well.

[normc]

Like others have said, it helps to know what your goals and limitaions are when offering help. It might also help to know what others have done in similar situations. This one really requires some knowledge of how much wine? it's value? how long you want to store? etc.

I created a 'wine cellar' with some HD polystyrene foam sheet, cut to line a cabinet in a cupboard in the coolest room of the house. Then cut some 90mm plastic SWD pipe just to keep things organised. Total cost ~$50. Definitely no good for expensive wine nor for any longer than a couple of years but its much better than leaving it to luck. The next best thing would be a wine fridge of the required capacity, but again, the comments regarding vibration need to be considered. If you are talking about expensive wines, you should be thinking about a dedicated structure of brick/besser block, or such. Good luck.