A question about plywood .......

[victorvector]

Hello

I have a question to all Australian friends building with plywood.

The last time I shopped for marine plywood was over two and a half decades ago ,so I would appreciate some help.

As far as I can ascertain , one of the best plywoods to build a boat with in Australia today is plantation grown hoop pine marine.
Apparently it`s good quality , ( and at over $ A 100.00 for 3/8 "or 9 mm it should be ! )

I`m willing to pay that , but here is my gripe :
For that kind of money one would think you would have the option to bright finish the plywood and get some "bling".Not so with hoop pine.It`s featureless and bland .Color is also less than ordinary.http://www.udm.com.au/images/veneer_thumbs/hooppine.jpg



So ...the question is : what do others here use , for bright finish plywood?

I`m not looking for flame mahogany veneer here , just something with some
appeal.

Thank you for your time.

[Seafarer]

So ...the question is : what do others here use , for bright finish plywood?




Gaboon plywood varnishes up nicely. Goes a red / brown colour, quite a bit darker than the bare sheets might suggest, and it can have nice figuring in it too. Definitely not bland.

It is light weight and readily available. Quality can vary a bit depending on where it comes from. I have been lucky with some good quality sheets, and not so lucky with other sheets that had voids in the inner plys that were not visible until the sheets were cut into.

Andrew Denman (member on this site) is importing Gaboon ply from Joubert. I haven't actually used any of Andrew's but from the samples I have seen would say it is first class quality.

Cheers, Cameron.

[victorvector]

Good stuff Seafarer !

Gaboon it shall be then !


Thank you.

[Cliff Rogers]

Yup, my Quick Canoe is Gaboon.
You can see the pics of the build & the result here.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/quick-canoe-155-pj-cliffs-one-week-build-tinaroo-raid-118846/
Best pics are at the bottom of post 17.

[woodeneye]

As far as I can ascertain , one of the best plywoods to build a boat with in Australia today is plantation grown hoop pine marine.
Apparently it`s good quality , ( and at over $ A 100.00 for 3/8 "or 9 mm it should be ! )

I`m willing to pay that , but here is my gripe :
For that kind of money one would think you would have the option to bright finish the plywood and get some "bling".Not so with hoop pine.It`s featureless and bland .

You are kidding?! You haven't seen it bright finished then. I've also seen Hoop Pine floors. Anything but bland. Some of the boats at the Wooden Boat Festival in Hobart were made from Hoop Pine ply and they were drop dead gorgeous.

[victorvector]

No , I`m not kidding!

I find it ( hoop pine ) bland.
There are other people who do also
I also dislike "straw" colored wood.

Each to their own I guess.

[woodeneye]

No , I`m not kidding!

I find it ( hoop pine ) bland.
There are other people who do also
I also dislike "straw" colored wood.

Each to their own I guess.

Yes, Hoop is definitely a straw colour initially. However, like most pines it will darken and finish up a golden honey colour, but it will take some time. I do like the figuring in the Gaboon too, which is a bonus really because the main reason I chose it was for the light weight. They don't make the Hoop in the larger sheet sizes either, so you are stuck with 2400x1200. Just make sure that the ply you get is 100% Gaboon, and not just the external veneers. :)

[victorvector]

Yes , I hear you loud and clear regarding quality.( inside veneers ).

The Joubert plywood sounds like a good product .

Like I said before , its been a long time since I have used marine ply.
The stuff I got then came from Israel of all places , manufactured by Kellet Afikim.
It was superb.I don`t recall the veneer used but it had a lovely red glow finished bright.
No voids that I could find .

I think plywood of acceptable quality is fast pricing itself out of the market.
At over $ 150.00 per sheet for 9mm hoop pine marine , its getting quite ridiculous.

Its easier for me to find top grade recycled clear oregon ( Douglas Fir ) at some salvage yards nearby , that would make strip plank attractive.

[Seafarer]

Like I said before , its been a long time since I have used marine ply.
The stuff I got then came from Israel of all places , manufactured by Kellet Afikim.
It was superb.I don`t recall the veneer used but it had a lovely red glow finished bright.


Yep, this would have been Gaboon for sure. As you say, a "lovely red glow" and the fact that it came from Israel.

Cheers, Cameron.

[mob]

At over $ 150.00 per sheet for 9mm hoop pine marine , its getting quite ridiculous.
The last sheet of marine ply my dad bought for our build was about $120. That was 30 years ago. Consider the difference between wages now and then.

[victorvector]

The last sheet of marine ply my dad bought for our build was about $120. That was 30 years ago. Consider the difference between wages now and then.

Unless you are comparing apples with apples ,( what thickness plywood was this ? and more importantly what quality ) that statement is largely meaningless.

Generally , the quality has gone down , and the ( relative ) price has gone up. .

The cheap" imported stuff from Asia is the worst value of all.

[woodeneye]

Quality Gaboon marine ply has always been expensive, even in Africa where the timber is grown and there were factories. It is imported here, so there is a high transport cost as well. As far as I know, it has always been imported into Australia, and am not aware of any past Australian manufacturers. Bruynzeel used to be the pick of the manufacturers worldwide, but sadly they do not deal in their own product any more.

The Asians have techniques for reducing the price of their Gaboon marine ply, but I won't go into that here as its been well documented elsewhere. I have seen first hand pictures of their "factories" though!

Personally, I don't think that $150 a sheet is expensive for quality 9mm gaboon. What does add up is the freight within Australia, but we have to live that because of the distances involved and our inadequate transport systems. Rail used to be cheap but it's a nightmare to arrange nowadays.

I wonder what became of the Israeli products?

[victorvector]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on what constitutes "expensive "
Woodeneye.

I think the Isreal produced Gaboon disappeared because of supply problems.
Unfortunate really , as I was most impressed by its quality.

[victorvector]

I did a quick search and google found an old 2008 post on US boat forum :


The only Israeli ply I've come across was made by Kelet Afikim which seems to have shut down a few years back.

Long gone so it seems.

[PAR]

I'm inclined to agree, in that marine plywood seems costly, but it's really not so bad in the over all picture of a project. This is a small boat issue, whereas a little powerboat that requires say 12 sheets of plywood, the purchase price (usually at full retail) seems high. This is because there's not much else in the boat in regard to wood. On the other hand, once you count the coats of goo, cloth, sand paper, paints, outboards, fuel tanks, steering systems, engine controls, shinny bits of metal to wrap dock lines around, etc. the significance of the plywood purchase price drops dramatically.

I'm just starting a powerboat build, which requires 38 pieces of plywood. Outch, but once you look at the cost of the new 4 stroke, 50 HP Mercury outboard I'll hang on it's butt, plus it's controls, steering and tankage, the plywood bill is put into perspective.

[victorvector]

I'm inclined to agree, in that marine plywood seems costly, but it's really not so bad in the over all picture of a project. This is a small boat issue, whereas a little powerboat that requires say 12 sheets of plywood, the purchase price (usually at full retail) seems high. ..............
I'm just starting a powerboat build, which requires 38 pieces of plywood. Outch, but once you look at the cost of the new 4 stroke, 50 HP Mercury outboard I'll hang on it's butt, plus it's controls, steering and tankage, the plywood bill is put into perspective.


Yes , the "shiny "bits are scary! :D

I should sit down one day and accurately price out the cost of a boat`s structure and in particular , hull skin , per area , with other building methods.

In years past , plywood was the clear winner on cost.

I suspect the cost of plywood / epoxy / glass sheathed hulls (discounting labor now )
built with high quality plywood , is fast approaching a stripper hull , given that the core stock ,(whatever it may be) was obtained at reasonable cost.

At the very least , I suspect that the gap is closing dramatically .

[mob]

,( what thickness plywood was this ? and more importantly what quality ) that statement is largely meaningless. 9mm AAAbond, I thought that's what was mentioned.

Largely meaningless? The estimate of average weekly earnings per employed Australian male unit 1981 in seasonally adjusted terms, was $283.90. In 2010 the figure was over $1200. My comment was relevant.

[victorvector]

You misunderstood me .

You did not mention specs of the plywood when you quoted the price .
Hence the apples to apples remark.

I can also tell you that I paid $ 82.00 per sheet for that excellent Israeli Gaboon
back in 1986 ! Btw , that was also delivered to my door !

I believe you paid too much

[PAR]

Most novice builders pay way too much for their materials. I pay about half of what most do for their plywood. I buy from a wholesaler who doesn't sell to the retail public and I use a coop so I can use "purchasing power" and larger lumber orders to get unit or pallet pricing, instead of sheet.

The cost of the hull shell in most projects is a significant purchase, but not as big as most think. Again, if you look at the whole project, I think you'll find the money spent on the hull shell materials is less the 25% of the total project. As a project size goes up, the hull shell cost drop pretty quickly. My new powerboat project has over 1,500 pounds (680 kilo) of plywood going into it, but the cost is about 12% of the total build cost.

[sinjin]

What seems a very long time ago when i built plywood boats somethings have not been mentioned.
Depending on the type of boat being built there was a great difference in the number of veneers and the thickness of the external veneers from brand to brand.
Gaboon was the ply of choice for any boat when a lot of curvature in the ply was needed. Although it was considered to flexable for some other types of boats.
Australia at one boat made some stunning plywoods and quality was also as good as any. If anyone had ever used Coachwood ply they would know what i mean or Australian red ceder plywood. These plywoods were made to a very high standard and also had good thickness external vaneers. It was easy to scarf 3-4mm thick ply to 60mm long and sand the joint without worry about sanding through the external vaneers. But a lot of the plywood i see today is just awful in comparison to what was available and unfortuneatly it has become the norm.
I still have a couple of small bits of Coachwood i have shown people to what you could get at one time and they are quite shocked as to how good this plywood was. But there were many good plywoods available years ago.
And it was also possible to buy your plywood custom ordered. people Like Bruce Keir i heard used to get his plywood made to order. And anyone who saw Bruce's boats know he was the man when it came to plywood sailing boats.