Wiring VFD to Arboga mill?

[neksmerj]

Looks like there are a lot of talented members out there, especially wiring diagrams.

I've got my Arboga mill, and a 240V 1-phase to 415V 3-phase VFD. The line in to the mill enters via a junction box, thermal overload, 2-speed switch then motor. The 2-speed switch I can probably ignor, or should I say, set to one speed or the other.

Attached is the wiring diagram that came with the VFD. What else am I going to need, eg, E-switch?

If someone could draft up a schematic diagram, I would appreciate it.

Reckon it would be advisable to mount the VFD in a case, to keep out swarf. Thinking maybe an old computer case might suffice.

Ken

[Stustoys]

Hi Ken
I had been thinking about pm you for an update.
If you fit a E/stop button/pedal(which I think you should), I don't think you should use the e/stop circuit on that VSD. Switch/break the 12V(green) wire instead. The E/stop circuit on these VSD relies on making a circuit, not breaking one. So you'll only know its not working right when you hit the button and the mill doesn't stop.
I don't think is breaking the 12V circuit and making the e/stop circuit will work either, even if it worked, the VSD would restart when the E/Stop button was reset if you forgot to switch it off manually.

The manual would say get rid of the 2 speed switch and the overload.
Stuart

[neksmerj]

Hi Stu.

Thanks for your advice. Sounds as though a hold in contactor should be inserted in the 240V lead. Pressing the E-switch would drop the contactor out, requiring a reset button to re-engage.

Does this sound ok? As I have mentioned many times before, I know very little about electrics.

I'll leave the 2-speed switch in circuit, but just won't use it. I realise that switching while the motor is running, spells sudden death for the VFD. I'll just take the knob off.

Drives Direct tell me it's ok to change speeds after the VFD is switched off via the pod, and the motor has stopped rotating.

Ken

[Cliff Rogers]

This looks similar to the WEG CFW08 Variable Speed drive I got one for a 3HP motor for a big wood lathe.

I mounted mine in a case on the wall with the wires out the bottom.

The case will need ventilation so I positioned mine so it can run with the door open.

I'm not at home at present, when I get home, I'll get you some pictures.

I can't comment on the existing 2 speed switch without looking at it.

It looks like the SP terminal can be programmed as an emergency stop button but it doesn't come that way from the factory & I can't find much info on how to change it but if the value of Function 19 is changed from 2 to 3 that will make it an emergency stop button.
It looks like you would have it powered on with the remote pad set to OFF.
You may have press the run/stop button to make sure it isn't running.
Press the DSP/FUN button.
Press the up or down arrow til it shows F19.
Press the Data/ENT button.
The display should say 002.
Press the up or down arrow to change it to 003.
Press the Data/ENT button again to save it.
The display should change back to F19 afte a slight pause.
Press the DSP/FUN button again.

Now if the SP terminal is connected to the 12V terminal next to it via an emergency switch, it will cause the motor to stop when the switch is closed & allow it to run when the switch is open.

If you don't dare try changing the program then you could wire your emergency switch in the series with the 12V line on the remote control pad so that it is normally closed when the switch/button is out & opens when you hit the big red stop button.
That way the control box would still be powered up & would cause the motor to ramp down to a stopped state.
When you reset the stop button, the motor would start again straight away.

If you put it in the 240V line, then when you hit it, the power to the controller would go off & the motor would free wheel to a halt.
When you reset the stop button, the motor would restart after the controller had gone through its power up routine so there would be some delay.


Hope that helps.

[Cliff Rogers]

Stu beat me & has a valid point. :2tsup:

[Stustoys]

Thanks for your advice. Sounds as though a hold in contactor should be inserted in the 240V lead. Pressing the E-switch would drop the contactor out, requiring a reset button to re-engage.

You shouldn't turn the VSD off like that. I guess if you really didnt trust the VSD to turn off once you switched the 12V line off. I just cut the 12V on my set up.


I'll leave the 2-speed switch in circuit, but just won't use it. I realise that switching while the motor is running, spells sudden death for the VFD. I'll just take the knob off.

Not sure it would kill it..... but it certainly wont do it any good.



Drives Direct tell me it's ok to change speeds after the VFD is switched off via the pod, and the motor has stopped rotating.

Yes that would be fine.


Stuart


Stu beat me & has a valid point. :2tsup:
Well thats a first!

[neksmerj]

Stu,

You reckon "get rid of the two speed switch and thermal overload".

What's the danger of just leaving them as is? The thermal overload is obviously there for a reason.

It has been mentioned that the 12V lead be broken to stop the VFD. Buggered if I can find anything about this lead in the manual. What does the 12V lead do?

Ken

[Stustoys]

Hi Ken
Personally I'd keep the switch, but I would fit an interlock so it cant be switched with the VSD on(by on I mean the output of the VSD is on. Its fine to switch it is the VSD is "on at the wall" but off on the VSD. As Drives Direct has said). You also need the interlock set up in such a way that you cant turn the VSD on with the switch on the mill off. Either that or bolt a plate over the switch so it cant be switched.

The thermal overload is more of a worry. If it opens because the motor is to hot, to the VSD it's the same as using the switch on the mill to turn it off. So you might save your motor but wreak the VSD. Hopefully someone with more knowledge in this area can comment.

If you look at pages 15 and 17 of the manual(unless they have a new manual).
You see that terminal 5(12V) is the 12V for terminals 3,4,6,7(FWd,REv,SP1,RST).
At present I don't think you will be using SP1 or RST so lets forget about them.
The remote pod you have switches "terminal 5(12V) green wire" between either
FWd orange wire terminal 3
OFF
REv yellow wire terminal 4

I now see a problem. With the switch you have you can't just add another switch for E/stop, as when you reset the E/stop the mill will reset unless you have turned the switch on the pod off.

As I see it this leaves you with three choices
1. Wire it up as is with no E/stop
2. Wire it up and use the E/stop circuit of the VSD(my opinion of this is in another post.
3. Add an extra level of control (not sure what, I'll have a think)

Stuart

[Keith_W]

Hi Ken,
Some suggestions for you;
Emergency Stop. I would use a contactor on the 240V input side of the Drive that would drop out the latching side of the contactor. I would not trust the input command to VSD as it could fail, in industry it is the common practice to issolate the VSD in this manner in the case of an Emergency Stop.
Motor Two Speed Switch. If the VSD has an output that signals that the VSD is in a rest state use this to activate a contactor that would allow you if wanted to change the speed wiring to Motor.
Speed Pot. Wire this up as per VSD Manual.
Forward/Reverse. Wire this up as per VSD Manual.
Overload. The VSD should has an inbuilt Overload as an additional one would not be necessary.
Cooling for VSD. VSD's like a lot of cooling as allow at least 100mm arround all sides of the VSD.

Regards,
Keith.

[Cliff Rogers]

Good luck Ken. :wink:

[Stustoys]

Emergency Stop. I would use a contactor on the 240V input side of the Drive that would drop out the latching side of the contactor. I would not trust the input command to VSD as it could fail, in industry it is the common practice to issolate the VSD in this manner in the case of an Emergency Stop.


You could do it this way but as the VSD manual warns against doing this, I a couple of issues with it.
"Do not attempt to install or remove input or output connectors of inverter when the

power supply is turned on. Otherwise, the inverter may be damaged due to the surge
peak caused by the insertion or removal of power."

1. IF use did use this as E/stop you wouldn't be using it all the time. The problem with this is that when the time comes to use it you will most likely reach for the control you always use, not the E/stop which you haven't used for 18 months.
2. If you don't use it all the time it you don't know if it is going to working when you need it to.

If you use the VSD, you can use it all the time and if it fails you will know the first time you try and turn it off. With any luck at all that wont be the time you need it to work.

I've just come across this in the manual. (page 5)

The operation of the stop switch is different than that of the emergency stop switch. The stop switch has to be activated to be effective. Emergency stop has to be de-activated to become effective.

Which contradicts this. (page 39)
"When the external emergency stop signal is activated, the inverter proceeds to decelerate and stop"

This is a later version of the manual than I have, I'll check my version and test which is correct later today.

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Stuart, Ken

On both the mill and lathe, I have the e-stop circuit dropping a latching contactor upstream of the vfd. So that e-stop kills the 240v power.

For normal start stop operation I use the digital inputs to the drive.

As far as thermal protection on the motor, (depending on the vfd features), the vfd will give you much better protection than a thermal overload. You could leave it in and I daresay it would never trip, but if it did trip while the machine was running, that should cause a fault trip on the drive.. probably dc bus overvoltage? I doubt it would damage the drive. But I wouldn't do it all the time..

Regards
Ray

[neksmerj]

Struth, are these things so delicate?

If it's suggested that there be no switching in the 240V lead, ie, an E-switch, how on earth do you turn the VFD on and off. I was just going to switch the VFD via the power point.

Ken

[Stustoys]

Ken
The warning about switching off the 240V only applies with the VSD is ON (i.e.running the motor).
Stuart

p.s. I like Keiths/RayGs idea of switching off the input, but I dislike the idea of two stop switches. Sometimes one must make choices in this world lol

[Cliff Rogers]

Removing the power from the motor or the controller is NOT going to give you an emergency stop.... it will stop, eventually. :rolleyes:

If you let the controller perform the ramp down, the motor will stop a whole lot faster then if you simply remove power.

[Stustoys]

If you let the controller perform the ramp down, the motor will stop a whole lot faster then if you simply remove power.
Well now depends on what is going on at the time. "As I understand it" the VSD will drive the motor at full power during ramp down.
So if you are about to run into something, ramp down would be a good thing.
If you have already run into something, ramp down might be a bad thing.
(btw the default ramp down is 5 seconds)

If I ever get around to fitting a foot pedal switch to the mill, I will most likely include a link to the spindle brake.(not an option for Ken I don't think)

Stuart

[Cliff Rogers]

How would you do an emergency stop in a car.... turn the key off & wait?

How long does it take to stop if you turn the power off?

[Stustoys]

How would you do an emergency stop in a car.... turn the key off & wait?
Well now depends on what is going on at the time.
If you are about to run into a wall, braking would be a good thing.
If you have already run into a wall, keeping full power on for 5 seconds might not be such a good idea.

How many brake pedals does your car have? One for normal braking and one for E/stop?


How long does it take to stop if you turn the power off?
From what speed? 3000rpm it takes awhile. Time isn't the question, it's how much power is in the spindle.

Ken does your mill have power feed or are you thinking about fitting it?

Stuart

[Cliff Rogers]

...
How many brake pedals does your car have? One for normal braking and one for E/stop?
...

Gears, a brake pedal & a hand brake, applied according to the conditions.

Do you think that because you have the same drive that you are the expert?

I am sorry I bothered to even put my opinion forward, I won't make that mistake again, even if I do have a couple of VSD controllers & 34 years experience in electronics including process control & computers.

You are obviously far more qualified to solve Ken's problems.

Best of luck Ken. :wink:

[Stustoys]

wanker. :rolleyes:
Wow are we having fun yet?


Do you think that because you have the same drive that you are the expert?
No and I don't believe I said such.

I am sorry I bothered to even put my opinion forward, I won't make that mistake again, even if I do have a couple of VSD controllers & 34 years experience in electronics including process control & computers.

You offered you opinion, I offered my opinion.
You used the car analogy, I used a car analogy.
You started name calling, now its my turn.

"Oh oh oh You are". *injections, no returns, double injections*

Stuart

[watson]

:spyme:


Shhhh!!! Pax Vobiscum

[Cliff Rogers]

Stu beat me & has a valid point. :2tsup:


Well thats a first!

Won't happen again.

[Dave J]

Wow it's all happening in this thread, LOL

Cliff, we all have different opinions, thats what makes these threads so good, as we get to read them all.
Do you always name call when someone has a different view? Or did you just get out of bed the wrong side today.

Dave

[neksmerj]

Fellas, please. We are all mates with a common interest in hobby level engineering.

I'm a novice, and learn from all inputs. What I don't want to see is any antagonism. Life is too delicate, look what's happening in Japan right now, so let's get back to some normality and constructive input.

Sit back, have a beer, and calm down.

Ken

[neksmerj]

Reckon I'll skip the E-switch, and just use the remote hand held pendant to turn the VFD off.

Nothing on the Arboga is power fed, hand fed only, so in reality, I shouldn't need an emergency stop.

I'll bypass the thermal overload, and just power the whole jigger with batteries, this should keep everyone happy.

Ken

Ken

[Stustoys]

Ken
I only asked about the powerfeed as if you had one, you would need to make sure it was switched off at the same time. As you don't that wont be a problem :)

What did you decide to do about the switch?

Stuart

p.s. I tested the VSD.
I don't know what page 5 of the manual is on about. The E/stop needs to make a circuit to work, not break one.
The VSD drives the spindle during ramp down.

[neksmerj]

Hi Stu,

Reckon the manual is translated from Tibetan into English, it is contradictory in places.

The two speed switch will be left insitu, set in one position or the other, and disabled. The thermal overload will be bi-passed. No E-stop.

All controls will be via the remote pendant. I figure, this way, it should be easy peasy.

Can't wait for my ER32 collet set and chuck to arrive. CTCtools seem to be a little slow on delivery,
however, I have patience.


Kenneffff

[Dave J]

Can't wait for my ER32 collet set and chuck to arrive. CTCtools seem to be a little slow on delivery,
however, I have patience.
Kenneffff


You will need to get the mill wired up and running to be able to use them.
I would say it will be here early next week Ken as it has only been 11 working days. I know what it's like buying from someone new and being anxious to make sure it arrives.

Dave

[RayG]

Pax Vobiscum

Indeed... ( I had to google it :) )

Hi Stuart,
Sheesh, turn your back for 5 minutes and there's a train wreck.

I agree with just using the digital inputs on the drive to do the normal start and stop, you could use the pendant to do pretty much everything needed during normal operation. (note I said pendant, not pedant)

Hi Cliff,
It's normal practice for e-stops to kill everything, free wheel to stop **might** be an issue on a lathe where there could be a lot of mass rotating, but on a mill it's only the tooling. It stops pretty much straight away anyway, I see nothing wrong with just killing the mains power on e-stops.


Ok, glad that's sorted, now Ken, where's that beer...

Regards
Ray

[Keith_W]

Hi All,
I can see what Cliff is getting at using the VSD to bring the Mill to a quick stop by a programed Emergency Stop which would be quicker than a stop by coasting to stop.
This is found in the Australian Standards AS60204.1-2005. Section 9.2.1 It refers to three Categories of Stop Functions being;
Stop Category 0 : Stopping by immediate removal of power at the machines actuators (i.e. an uncontrolled stop)
Stop Category 1 A controlled stop with power available in the machine actuators to achieve the stop and then removal the power when the stop is achieved.
Stop Category 2 A controlled stop with power left available to machine actuators.
The problem with just using the VSD to achieve the Stop Category 1 is that VSD’s are not what is called in Industry Failsafe, it would not meet the requirements AS60204.1-2006 or AS62061. There are Failsafe Controllers that would allow the use of the Stop Category 1 but as this is just for home use would be too expensive.
There is the European Standard IEC 61800-5-2 where VSD’s can have an Emergency Stop input and the practice is to have two signals one to the Stop Input and one to the Emergency Stop input where there is an interruption to the IGB stage, but it is not a recognized Standard in Australia as yet.
My suggestion to take power off the VSD at input stage was based on a quick cost effective way to isolate the VSD in an emergency situation. For normal operation of the Mill the Start/Stop controls are fine, but when something goes wrong and you hit the Emergency Stop you want to know that the VSD is isolated and that it indeed has stopped and hasn’t failed so suggested using a Stop Category 0, complete removal of power.
This is a Domestic installation not an Industrial one hence my suggestion. If I was working on this application in Industry I would be applying the quoted above Standards and the Machine Control would be configured to the Safety Control Categories found in AS4024.1-2006 which would make this far more expensive.

Regards,
Keith.

[Cliff Rogers]

.....
Do you always name call when someone has a different view? .....
See post 5 & post 22, read them carefully, I didn't start it. :rolleyes:

There was another fairly detailed post that I put up that I deleted when I received the shmarmy remark from his royal highness.

He didn't have to agree with what I said, I actually conceded that he had a good point & I got a back hander for it. :oo:

Him being a wanker (with a higher opinion of his own opinion than other opinions of his opinion) is not name calling, it is just my opinion, you don't have to agree with it. :wink:


.....
Hi Cliff,
It's normal practice for e-stops to kill everything,. .....
Maybe last century, not this century with electronic control available. :no:


Hi All,
I can see what Cliff is getting at using the VSD to bring the Mill to a quick stop by a programed Emergency Stop which would be quicker than a stop by coasting to stop.....
Thank you. :2tsup:

[RayG]

Hi Ken,

I've changed my mind... (happens all the time)

The VFD capacitors discharge time with the motor on, probably allows you enough power to do something close to Category 2A stop. (Thanks Keith for the refresher)

When you hit the e-stop, a relay supplies the stop signal to the drive (which ever one of the stop inputs is faster) and drops the latching (isolating) contactor at the same time. The available power in the capacitors can then be applied to stopping the mill.

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Cliff
You misinterpreted my comments in post 5.
I was talking about myself, not you.
i.e. "Well thats a first" that I beat anyone. I believe I am right is saying that I am well known for typing messages extremely slowly so tend to have message over lap. The fact that I beat anyone would be a first.

Stuart

[RETIRED]

Ok Kiddies, now that we have most of who said what and to whom sorted out lets get back on topic with reasoned debate.:D

[Cliff Rogers]

Cliff
You misinterpreted my comments in post 5.
I was talking about myself, not you.
i.e. "Well thats a first" that I beat anyone. I believe I am right is saying that I am well known for typing messages extremely slowly so tend to have message over lap. The fact that I beat anyone would be a first.

Stuart

Then I apoligise. :-


Ok Kiddies, now that we have most of who said what and to whom sorted out lets get back on topic with reasoned debate.:D
Cool, can you please undelete the original post 4 for me? :B

Thanks.

[RETIRED]

Ok. Ignore PM. Blind today.

[Stustoys]

Np These things happen.
Stuart

[Cliff Rogers]

The photos I said I would get.

This controller is for a big pedestal lathe on the back veranda of my shed.

The veranda is open at one end so I recycled an old aluminium trunk to house the controls. ( a metal tool box would do to.)

The case is grounded & has a good solid ground wire to the lid as well.

The power to the box comes out of the shed wall from behind.

The remote control panel is on a good shielded data (DC control) cable that can be positioned near the operator or rolled up & stored in the box when not in use.

The control lead will run directly from the VFD to the remote panel so the door has to be open while it is running, this also means that the VFD can get fresh air for cooling.
The VFD has a heat sink & a fan & I have bolted it to a good thick aluminium case to give it more heat sink.

The drive cable to the motor (not connected in this photo) will come up through a gland in the bottom of the box.

When not in use, the whole lot can be closed up to keep geckos, ants & mud wasps out.
I also have the manual & all the specs sheets & programming notes stored in the same box.

[neksmerj]

What on earth does all this mean? It's an extract from my Teco manual.

1. Fn_19, Fn_20 =1 : JOG
2. Fn_19, Fn_20 =2: Sp1 terminal
3. Fn_19, Fn_20 =3: External emergency stop signal
When the external emergency stop signal is activated, the inverter proceed a decelerate stop
(ignoring setting in Fn_14). Flash E.S. after stop. After the emergency stop signal is deactivated,
turn the RUN switch OFF and then ON again.(Fn_10 =1) Or, push the RUN key (Fn_10=0). The
inverter will then resume operation and restart. If the emergency stop signal is removed before
MiniCon stops, MiniCon will still execute emergency stop.
4. Fn_19, Fn_20 =4: External Base Block ( immediate shut off )
When the external base block signal is activated, the inverter output will be immediately shut off
(ignoring setting in Fn_14) and flash b.b. After the base block signal deactivated, turn the RUN
switch OFF and then ON again (Fn_10 = 1) or push the RUN key (Fn_10=0), the inverter will
restart from the starting frequency.
5. Fn_19, Fn_20 = 5: Reset when inverter fault.

It mentions when the external emergency stop signal is activated. To me this is meaningless, where does the emergency stop switch go, there is no wiring diagram.

Ken

[Stustoys]

Hi Ken

Terminals "SP1" and "RST" are "muti-function inputs"
Depending on the settings of F_19 and F_20 gives you different results when either circuit is activated.
If either is set to "1" then that terminal when activated will jog at the FREQ set by F_09
If either is set to "3" then that terminal when activated!! acts an and E/stop(not when deactivated like most E/stops)
If either is set to "4" then that terminal when activated acts External Base Block(something on this setting I will check on my VSD)
If either is set to "5" then that terminal when activated is auto reset

If F_19=2 & F_20=6 the you can have three jog speeds the FREQ set by F_08, F_26 and F_27
(tables for this are one page 39)
F19=6 & F20=2 is pretty much the same thing the switching is just a little different(the second table on page 39.

F_14 is the setting for either controlled deceleration stop(0), free run stop(1). If this is set to free run stop(1) it is ignored and controlled deceleration stop(0) is used.

The wiring diagram on page 5 shows it terminals 6 and 7. Either terminal or both can be used for E/stop(assuming F19 and F20 are set correctly)

Hope this makes sense.
The offer to come have a look at mine is still open if you think it will help, but mine may confuse you even more.

Stuart

[neksmerj]

Thanks Cliff & Stu.

Struth, so many choices. I just thought wire it up, and Bob's your uncle. I'll have to print out your instructions, and keep aside for when the time comes. Stu, you mention the wiring diagram on page 5. I don't have a diagram on page 5, however there is an overall diagram on page 15. I can't read my postage stamp sized manual, and am using a pdf download from Teco.

My manual face page says Teco T-verter E2 series.

Stu, I will pop over when the time is closer.

Ken

[Stustoys]

Typo, 15 it is.
Just to make sure we have the same manual, check the bottom right corner of the last page of our pdf. Ver:11 2010.04?


Stuart

[neksmerj]

Hi Stu,

Nope, my last pdf page contains a parameters table for the customer to fill in.

There's nothing else printed on the page, however, I'm sure we are on the same page.

Ken

[Stustoys]

Well thats one version I dont have. lol (you seem to be missing the last two pages)
I have three versions, one that came with the unit(Ver 9), one from the Aus Teco site(Ver 10), one from a Teco site overseas(Ver 11). lol
But they do seem pretty much the same.
Stuart

[Keith_W]

Hi Ken,
I have drawn up a Circuit Diagram useing a simple Latching Contactor for the Emergency Stop, Relay and Rotary Switch for Start/Stop and Forward/Reverse.
The Speed Selector Switch is for the Two separate Motor speed windings and should not be switched while VSD is working on one of the Motor Speed Windings.
Cliff and Stuart have given advice on the Function Settings.

Regards,
Keith.

[RayG]

Hi Keith,

Nice work. I'll look at it more closely...

Circuit looks fine to me, Only thing I'm not sure of is the need for the start stop relay, I think the drive has 24v dc inputs for stop, so it might be possible to just have a three position fwd/off/reverse switch and eliminate the start/stop relay. I suspect even a switch might be unnecessary as I think Ken has a remote control pendant that would cover those functions.

Ken, can you clarify, did you get the pendant?

Regards
Ray

[neksmerj]

Thanks fellas,

Yes, I also have the remote hand held pendant. It controls FWD OFF REV & STOP functions.

Ken