Help with wiring a teco fm50 vfd !!!

[INVENTOR]

Does anyone have 'good' information on the control wiring for a Teco FM50 VFD. I have looked at countless posts on forums and everyone has their idea on how to wire stop/start fwd/reverse and jog controls. ( single phase 240v to 3 phase unit)
Preferably I want to use external '3 wire' stop/start etc and using the VFD inputs/functions etc rather than using extra relays to do the latching.
Ideally I want to operate the VFD with momentary style Start/Stop , Forward and Reverse ( selectable switch) and perhaps jog function ( at least in forward direction) It is not fitting an existing machine, so I need to buy switches etc.

Some say that there is more wiring info on a 'CD' that was suppose to come with the unit ( along with the paper manual) Teco Australia don't know about a CD.
For every wiring schematic I have found there seems to be someone saying that it either has limitations or is less than ideal.
If all else fails I could use extra relay/s but not if it is unnecessary.
Any help would be much appreciated. I am on a learning curve with VFD's but have an electrical background. Just don't know too much about the jargon the manuals use. The Teco Manual is not very helpful.

:C

[Stustoys]

Ideally I want to operate the VFD with momentary style Start/Stop , Forward and Reverse ( selectable switch) and perhaps jog function ( at least in forward direction)
Hi,
I dont believe this is possible. You need to either use a latching relay or a normal switch.
I haven't heard of a CD either.
There are a lot of different ways to wire these things up. Some like one way, others like another way.

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Inventor,

What sort of machine is it?

Simplest wiring is a forward/off/reverse switch and a pot for speed control. That's all you need. (actually you could eliminate all the external wiring and switches, and just use the keyboard, but I don't think that's what you had in mind)

As Stuart says, the inputs to the drive are level sensitive, if you want edge triggered (momentary switches) for fwd/rev, then some external circuitry will be needed. Could be as simple as a latching relay, or as complex as you like. Depends on what you want to do.

Sorry, that's not more help, but it might help clarify the question.

Regards
Ray

[Gunnaduit]

Why not try another manufacturer's more detailed manual, in case it reveals more of the underlying logic.

For example, the ABB manual for the ACS350 drive (hope this link works)
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww05.abb.com%2Fglobal%2Fscot%2Fscot201.nsf%2Fveritydisplay%2F2cf5b5aabb5777a9c125733d00407394%2F%24file%2Fen_acs350%2520um_d.pdf&rct=j&q=en_acs350%20abb&ei=mzOkTZqxA5D8vQOcubmVCg&usg=AFQjCNFaIzx8zCq13FbTYHRQbZUtJTXqyA&cad=rja

[neksmerj]

Inventor,

In case you missed it, there was a post a short time ago re wiring up a VFD to an Arboga mill.

Right at the start of the post, is a diagram showing a remote control pod hooked up to a VFD.

The VFD in this case is a Teco unit modified to run a 415 3-phase motor, from a 240V 1-phase supply. This aspect should not be a concern to you.

If your operating instructions are anything like mine, you will find a wiring diagram for FWD STOP REV SPEED. Forward, stop and reverse is a 3-position switch. Speed utilises a 10K linear pot.

The post is here.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/wiring-vfd-arboga-mill-132429/

Stu can probably advise on setting up the parameters.

Ken

[Keith_W]

Hi INVENTOR,
If you dont have the Manual for the FM50 you can download from Teco's web site. The wiring diagran on page 15 shows that you need a maintained contact for the Multi Function Inputs, so if you want to use Push Buttons you would need to use a Relay to acheive this. As you have an Electrical Background this would be easy for you to do, if you are unsure I could draw a Circuit for you.

Regards,
Keith.

[INVENTOR]

Thanks all, for your responses thus far. I will be wiring the unit on the test best thus far with the intention of using on a lathe ( that doesn't have any controls).
So I would like to replicate the usual set up on 'sa'y a metal lathe where the 'soft touch' control doesn't rely on remembering to switch 'certain switches' into appropriate positions all the time.

I do want to add extra control switches in the circuit for extra stop buttons etc.

I do have the manual, but it is not very good.
I have found various schematics from the web, I will try and post one or two for comment. they used the multifunction inputs without the need to employ relays, but I would value extra comments, before I go wiring it up.

[Stustoys]

. they used the multifunction inputs without the need to employ relays,
You could make a solid-state (do we still use that word?) circuit to get rid of the relay, but there has to be some form of external latching if you want soft touch controls.
Look forward to your schematics.

Stuart

[INVENTOR]

Thanks for the reply Stuart. I think that I would probably feel 'easier' if I set the unit up with external relay/s but I am still very intrigued how people can wire these units using its own settings etc. given that I have the unit on the bench and using a spare motor, I feel like trying a few options, to learn how they work.
here is one post I found , also see attached files

TECO FM-50 Setup on Hendey Lathe - Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/transformers-phase-converters-vfd/teco-fm-50-setup-hendey-lathe-154497/)

What I don't know ( a lot, I know) is how the separate 'functions' work eg: if you use a conventional switch for the on/off can you effectively also incorporate the jog control ( referring to the drawing)
Also for my ideal set up, I would want to be able to run in reverse in both 'normal' and jog mode.
Without wasting too much of your time, is it worth following some of these types of circuits ( and function settings) or better to add an external relay?

[Stustoys]

The on/off switch isn't momentary so there is your latching.
I don't like using that E/stop system(but that's a personal choice, I don't like that you have to make a circuit to stop the lathe)
You cant run the lathe in REV except at JOG speed.
The jog circuits(there can be up to three) are separate from the FWD/REV circuits. They lock the drives Hz. You then use the FWD/REV how ever you please.
I would wire it a little differently, I'd draw what I think you have in mind.

Stuart

[Stustoys]

Here you go. I had to do it it paint so the switches are the press I could do.

[INVENTOR]

Hi, Stuart, that was fast. yes as you say the on/off switch in spst. If you don't set up the emergency stop as he has shown ( i like your thinking) then how do you suggest to wire up the stop contact/s?
With the circuit you have drawn, does the VFD know to reduce down to jog hz when the 12volts is applied to the SP1 terminal? ( eg: over-rides the 'normal' speed setting) and/or do you have to set the fwd/reverse switch to 'off' before hitting the jog?
It is this part that has me unsure. the way I read the manual, it doesn't spell out which (if any) functions take precedence.

Thanks heaps, I am learning a lot.

[Stustoys]

Hi, Stuart, that was fast. yes as you say the on/off switch in spst. If you don't set up the emergency stop as he has shown ( i like your thinking) then how do you suggest to wire up the stop contact/s?

Sorry that drawing was if you planned to include his stop circuit. If you plan on using that as your normal stop button I don't have so much of a problem with it. Its when it is used as an E/stop I have issues with it.



With the circuit you have drawn, does the VFD know to reduce down to jog hz when the 12volts is applied to the SP1 terminal? ( eg: over-rides the 'normal' speed setting) and/or do you have to set the fwd/reverse switch to 'off' before hitting the jog?

Never tired it. I assume in will go to jog speed even if running, I'll check and get back to you.


It is this part that has me unsure. the way I read the manual, it doesn't spell out which (if any) functions take precedence.
For the speed control the precedence is on page 35 of my manual(who knows in yours) It goes Jog > SP1 > keypad setting or external speed pot.
BTW
1. If you are using the E/stop circuit you can only have one jog speed. No biggy if you have speed pot anyway.
2. As the jog speed has precedence the speed pot has no effect once jog is switch on

[INVENTOR]

If you use the stop function ( as shown in his drawing) as your main stop ( as I guess you can simply add numerous stop switches eg: knee bar/ door lockouts etc in series) to the circuit BUT, how do you achieve a 'real' Estop?
Am I correct in saying that VFD's don't like being isolated from the incoming supply while under load? ( eg: if you were to use a main isolating Estop switch 'external' to the VFD)

I know you don't use any switches etc between the motor and VFD.

Wow, I am asking a lot of questions, but so much to learn.

[Stustoys]

I try tried the jog circuit while the machine was running. It slows(or speeds up, now that could be a trap) to jog Hz and the returns to the prior speed setting once jog is removed.

As far as E/stops go. I have a foot pedal as the stop. That's what I always use and that's what I feel I will go for in an emergency. I don't like to have another E/stop as you wont go for it first anyway. But there are wildly differing opinions on this.

Stuart

[INVENTOR]

Thanks again Stuart, you must not have anything to do. LOL, but run around and answer 'silly' questions by me.
I really appreciate you taking the time.

So out of all that, is it viable to not use a relay/s ( and use the circuit that you posted. OR add a relay for latching.???

[Stustoys]

lol That's ok inventor, but I'll be given the misses your name, you may have some explaining to do ;)

What I don't like about using that E/stop is that you must use the motor braking. If you set it to short you are putting wear and tear on things every time you stop. If you set it long so that is stops slowly in an emergency it will drive the spindle at full power during ramp down(on a lathe it will drive the power feed as well). On machines of this size I prefer free run stop, except for special cases like threading to a shoulder. Having said all that I most likely have my ramps to long.

For a real E/stop, I think you need a brake.

Would I wire my machines up like that? Maybe, in the short term. I'll have to have more of a think about that.

Stuart

[Keith_W]

I would suggest that if you want to have an E/Stop that it goes Line Side and drops power to VSD, commom industry practice, it would be in keeping with E/Stop Categories.
If you want to bring the Motor to a quick stop then E/Stop Category 2 would apply where a Failsafe Controller would signal the VSD which would have separate input to bring the Motor to a quick safe halt then the Failsafe Controller would issolate the circuit.
I attach a diagram I did for a VSD Circuit which is very similar to what I feel this circuit woud be.
As this is a domestic installation the normal Standards that would apply to Industry are not manditory but I think you should consider them as they are there to ensure safety to operators of the equipment.

Regards,
Keith.

[INVENTOR]

Thanks Keith, I will study the drawing today. thanks for posting it.
:U

[Stustoys]

Keith,
Can you fix the wire that goes from T1 to 5. It upset my eyes :)

Stuart

[INVENTOR]

Keith and Stuart,

I have played around with the drawing, trying to add a jog function that can operate in both FWD and REV.
Not knowing enough about how the 'software' of the unit overrides the external inputs I came up with the first drawing ( the wire should ideally go onto terminal 6 'SP1' instead of how it is shown on terminal 7 'RST')
it also uses a n/c contact ( of the jog button) in the 'normal' supply.
But, then I realized that perhaps it would be better to use the n/c contact to open the relay, totally. So that if you happen to push the jog button while the motor is running the motor would permanently stop running at the selected 'normal' speed and run at the jog speed while ever the jog button is held in.

Do I have this correct, or is it totally rubbish/unnecessary?

In a 'domestic' situation you could prossibly use a switch instead of the contactor ?

[Stustoys]

invertor,
Terminals 6 and 7 are pretty much interchangable.
I don't understand why you have added so much. You just need a SPST from 12V[5] to SP1[6](or RST[7]), if the switch is closed the VSD goes to jog speed(or sp1 depending on software settings), if its open it runs at "normal" speed. Am I missing something?
Stuart

[INVENTOR]

Hello Stuart thanks for the response. I was assuming that you first have to hit the start button, then the motor runs at the selected speed and then if you push the jog button it would either speed up or slow down to the set jog speed.

Or does the pot control the speed of the jog as well? ( up to the frequency that it is set) I don't know!

Then when the jog switch is released it would go back to normal speed, which depending upon the application, could be unwanted.
I was assuming that it might be 'safer' to have to restart the normal speed mode after the jog has been used.

Does that make sense?

I need a icon with a puzzled face:U

[Stustoys]

"I was assuming that you first have to hit the start button" No, you can switch jog on before or after the motor is running.

"Or does the pot control the speed of the jog as well?" No, regardless of the setting on the pot speed control the jog speed overrides it(slower or faster)

"Then when the jog switch is released it would go back to normal speed, which depending upon the application, could be unwanted.
I was assuming that it might be 'safer' to have to restart the normal speed mode after the jog has been used."
Could be I guess. You might be able to use a DPDT center off switch, but I'll have to think a little more about that.

Stuart

[INVENTOR]

Stuart, if there is only a spst switch for the jog ( as you mentioned in your earlier post. And the fwd/reverse switch is set to either one. Then, if you select jog ( without hitting the start button), doesn't there need to be 12v connection to the fwd/rev switch?

If you only want to jog the motor without actually starting it to run at normal speed but need to select what rotation it goes in.

[Stustoys]

Oh ok now I see what you are trying to do.
I think what you are trying to do is better described as "inching" rather than "jogging", but maybe I am playing word games.

I have no idea what the VSD would think of that. Although I guess the guy you linked to is getting away with it.

I think you might be better off forgetting about it for the minute and just using the speed pot. Is there a reason you think you want inching? There is a way of inching with the current switch setup up but I am sure it would be frowned upon

Stuart

[INVENTOR]

Hello Stuart, yes I guess I was thinking of inching, where you might want to have a preset speed that you can select for various operations. And I thought if it is easy to add then it would be a nice feature, but I think it would be good to be able to have it fwd and rev.
Now that you and others have so kindly helped me, I will start trying a few options.
Do you find its best to connect all of the control wiring in shielded wiring? with one end grounded (I will be enclosing the VFD in a metal enclosure and using shielded cable to the motor)?

[Stustoys]

I've only done one VSD although not a standard one. I have used cat5 cable for all my controls. No shielding on the motor cables so AM radio is out while the VSD is turned on. So I can't really comment.

Stuart

[RayG]

Do you find its best to connect all of the control wiring in shielded wiring? with one end grounded (I will be enclosing the VFD in a metal enclosure and using shielded cable to the motor)?

Hi Inventor,

I would have contributed a bit more to this thread a little earlier but I've been away on a job. But I see Stuart has you heading in the right direction anyway!

No real need to shield the control cables, if you already have shielded cable then by all means use it. However you should keep the control cables away from the vfd output to the motor. Try not to have long parallel runs with the power cabling.

The power cable from the VFD to the motor, however, does needs to be shielded for EMI supression.
Having said that, I have just orange circ on mine :) ... but my excuse is I'm going to re-do it when I do the CNC stuff.

Regards
Ray

[Keith_W]

Hi INVENTOR & Stustoys,
I attach an update on the circuit diagram where I have put a Rotary Pushbutton NO with a feed from Terminal 5 to Terminal 6. This would when closed set the Frequency to the set SP1 Frequency as I see it from the Manual, but I could be wrong.
I fixed the colour from Terminal 5 for you Stustoys, dont want to upset your eyes.

Regards,
Keith.

[INVENTOR]

Thanks for the updated drg Keith and the comments about shielding.
From the new updated drg.
From what I understand ( slowly increasing) you would need the motor running first ( to supply 12v to the fwd/rev switch) and then the jog (sp1) feature could be used. If I am correct, then this is not necessarily a bad thing,
However, (with my drawing) I was just was wondering if it might be better to 'separate' the two functions.
eg: the machine either runs at normal speed OR you select jog speed. not be running at one speed and then to change to another and back again.
But I guess it depends on the application. I will give the drgs a bit more thought.

Thanks heaps for your comments thus far

[2rods]

Sorry for bring this thread up but having trouble with my FM 50. I want to inch/ jog my lathe chuck at times. By pushing a NO switch the chuck should turn slightly. By wiring switch to SP1 and 12V and in F19 at 1 shouldn't the chuck turn as switch pressed? F8 and 9 are at10 and 6 hz but inch/jog won't work. Only way I can get it to work is hook the switch to 12v and the forward terminal but if you hold switch on it goes to fullspeed of the forward function. What am I doing wrong in the programming or can't this unit do this? Thanks guys.

[Stustoys]

Hi 2rods,
Welcome, Could you draw up the wiring you currently have. I'll grab the manual and try and help but I'll likely need to know some of your other settings is the VSD close by?

Stuart

[Stustoys]

What is F_03=?
I assume F_10=1?

[2rods]

Don't know how to put up a diagram but I only have fwd rev wired up to 12v and fwd rev terminals pretty simple. F3=0 and F10=1.
I even disconnected the fwd rev switch and just hooked up inching switch to 12v and sp1 and still didn't work. Thanks for your help Stu.

[Dave J]

There are a couple of ways you can put up a wiring diagram, either draw it and then scan it to post, or draw it in Microsoft paint and then post it up.

Dave

[Stustoys]

I assume the display is flashing the freq the motor will run at if started?(what freq is that? do you have a pot fitted for speed control?)

That number should change to 10(F_9 setting) when you connect 12V and SP1.(the motor doesnt need to be running)
If it doesnt work try setting F_20=2, then connect 12V to RST.

Stuart

p.s. My fault. dont you need 5 posts before you can upload?

[2rods]

Hz set to 60 and is flashing. No pot for speed control. I'll check the other settings and get back to you.

[Stustoys]

What is F_7=?
The jog freqs wont override the freq lower limit.

[2rods]

That number should change to 10(F_9 setting) when you connect 12V and SP1.(the motor doesnt need to be running)
If it doesnt work try setting F_20=2, then connect 12V to RST.

Doesn't change and went to RST and no change.
F7 is 25.5
Only thing that jog does is slow chuck down when already running which is pointless.

[Stustoys]

Did you change F_20=2?
Having F8= 10 and F_9=6 is a waste of time as the VSD wont go below 25.5(F_7). if you want to jog that slow you have to change F_7 to 6 or less

[Stustoys]

Connnecting 12V to SP1 will not make the vsd run.
You need to connect 12V to SP1 AND 12V to FWD

[2rods]

Did you change F_20=2?
Having F8= 10 and F_9=6 is a waste of time as the VSD wont go below 25.5(F_7). if you want to jog that slow you have to change F_7 to 6 or less

F20=2 and F7now 5 made no diference

[2rods]

Connnecting 12V to SP1 will not make the vsd run.
You need to connect 12V to SP1 AND 12V to FWD

If you connect 12v to fwd it will automatically run. With for rev switch hooked up if you select fwd or rev and hit jog/inching button it will slow right down to whatever speed is programmed but thats not what I want. I give up lol. I'm just going to wire jog/inching switch to 12v and fwd and call it a day. Chuck will turn at whatever speed is selected in gearbox or vsd. It is controllable by just bumping switch slightly to get desired movement of chuck.

[Stustoys]

Ok I think I understand now. You are triying to use a set up that was on the lathe already? It sounds more like you havent wired it correctly than an VSD problem.
I'm going to need a diagram or some pictures.

The jog switch needs to be wired from 12V to FWD AND! SP1. SP1 contorls the speed but will not make the lathe run.

How short is your start up ramp?

Stuart

[2rods]

Yes there was an inching control. Start ramp a few seconds not at Vfd right now. I am beginning to think this is not possible with this Vfd. I'll make up
a drag and try to post or may have to email it to you. Thanks again.

[Stustoys]

I'm pretty sure it can be, just a question of how much rewiring needs to be done and if extra switches are needed. That depends on what you have now.
We'll see soon enough

Stuart

[2rods]

Ok I wired it up like you said and it works with inching switch but in fwd it goes the speed of jog that is programmed and rev is full speed. Start up ramp(accel time) is .7 sec.

[Stustoys]

At a guess it sounds like you need a double pole jog switch.(it likely is double pole)
Or you may need to add another switch.
I can't really say more than that until I've seen what you have and how its currently wired as I assume you want it to be able to jog in reverse as well.

If you only want it to jog FWD and the jog button is double pole, wire one pole 12V to FWD and the other pole 12V to SP1.

Stuart

p.s. A question for those in the know. the 12V on these VSDs, is it AC or DC?. i.e. could you remove the need for the double pole switch by fitting a diode?

[2rods]

Not really following the double pole bit. Could post a drawing?

[Stustoys]

I think wiki has explained it better than I could.
DTST(double pole single throw) "Equivalent to two SPST switches controlled by a single mechanism"

Switch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch)

AT a guess. If you have FWD and SP1 wired to a single pole of the jog switch, when you try and run the lathe with the other switches those wires are connecting FWD and SP1 so it only runs at job speed. If you put them on seprate poles that cant happen.

Stuart

[RayG]

p.s. A question for those in the know. the 12V on these VSDs, is it AC or DC?. i.e. could you remove the need for the double pole switch by fitting a diode?

Hi Stuart,

It's DC, I've been meaning to try and contribute something to this thread, but things are a bit crazy around here with work at the moment.

If I get a chance I'll have a look a the the Teco on the Mill tomorrow and see if I can draw a circuit.

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

So a diode would work then? Not sure I like the idea but as a failed diode would make the machine run slower or not at all I guess its not so bad if the switch turns out to be hard to replace.....

Stuart

[2rods]

Put a 3 amp diode I had kicking around between Fwd and Sp and now it all works properly! Thanks Guys. On another note what enclosures are you all using or should I bother? Worried about grinding dust etc.

[Stustoys]

Good to hear its sorted.

On another note what enclosures are you all using or should I bother? Worried about grinding dust etc.
I'm having the exact same issue ATM, two of my VSDs are on grinders, I've been thinking about boxes with car air filters. Though given they are 2.2kW drives and 2hp or less motors I have been thinking about pulling them in a steel box and see if they trip............but that seems just a little rough, even for me.


Stuart

[2rods]

I am wondering about an old computer case. You could block the back off for wiring and a filter and maybe cut out front or make a new faceplate so front of vsd is visible and accessible to program. Those enclosures are expensive.

[RayG]

Hi Stuart, Gerry,

You can get away without having air vents if the heat dissipation from the enclosure surface is large enough to provide cooling.

Or just the heatsink on the back, like this.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Misc/DSCN2023.JPG


Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Yeah the heatsink comes out the back on my Teco (I'm pretty sure). But not on the cheap ones. I also wish the fans on the cheap one didnt run when the output was off. As you can see all my problems are large lol

Stuart

[2rods]

Should the VFD be left powered up or is it Ok to cut the power to it if not in use? Do they consume any power when left on? Thanks

[2rods]

Anyone?

[Stustoys]

You mean all the time? I wouldn't be turning it off if I thought I was going to be using it again soonish. It maybe better for the until to be left on all the time, but I can do without the noise. Yes they would have to use some power, I've never checked how much. If I can find some batteries for my tester I'll let you know.

Stuart

[2rods]

Thanks Stuart

[Stustoys]

About 10W, .24kWhr a day, so about $0.05. Still thats $18 a year, you could buy something shiny for the toolbox for that.
Stuart

[2rods]

Stu I assume you have same Vfd. Do you know if it can display current draw when motor is running? Teco fm50 is the Vfd. Thanks again.

[Stustoys]

Hi 2rods,
I cant remember what Teco I have, its not a FM50 (E2?). I dont recall being able to change the display, I think hz is all you can have. I'll have a look when I get a minute.

Stuart

p.s my earlier comments about fan noise were for the Huanyang drives.