Machine Levelling Feet

[Anorak Bob]

This is a project I should have embarked on well before now. I was looking at some user made feet the other day that consisted of plate with conveyor belt rubber bonded to the underside. They were square, maybe about 90 x90. This would have facilitated the cutting of the rubber. Round would be easier for me, only as far as the metal components go. I was thinking along the lines of 75mm diameter x 12 mm thick with an M14 stud ( they are for the mill and that's the size of the holes in the base).

Cutting a neat disc from thick hard rubber would be tricky. Do I need the rubber? The mill weighs a bit over 500kg.

Dave J made his only from steel if I remember correctly. I would be interested to find out how they have performed.

BT

[Ch4iS]

Can you glue the rubber then cut it to the shape of the base?

Or possibly cut it as close as possible and then spin and cut/sand it on the lathe?

[Pete F]

Bob, what machine is it going on? Some machines rubber isn't a good idea as it's compliant and so as more weight is placed on it (eg traversing a table/carriage) it distorts and the machine will then not be as you levelled it. Whether that's a factor or not will really depend on the machine.

Rubber has the advantage of isolating the machine vibrations, however I use commercial feet that have hard plastic on the base. They don't mark the tile floor the machines sit on, yet aren't very compliant, nor do they expand/contract like wood. Many machine manufacturers, especially of large machines, recommend bolting directly to tie-rods embedded in the concrete with no isolation at all. Hardly practical for the home shop, but dyna-bolting the machine down would be the home shop equivalent. Since I don't want my machines bolted down, the feet I use are the best I can manage.

If you do decide to go with rubber, I've heard packing it in dry ice to freeze it makes it quite straight forward to turn with a sharp tool. I've never tried it myself, instead have only used sanding and that process makes a hell of a mess!

Pete

[Dave J]

Hi Bob,
That would be these ones
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/lathe-mill-adjustable-feet-pictures-114836/

I haven't installed them on the mill yet but they have been on the lathe since I made them. For the lathe I would recommend solid steel so when you level it, it stays put. They work the way they are supposed to and haven't had any problems.

I will get around to putting them on the mill, but for now they are not needed because the floor is level and it would raise it a bit to high, once I build my other stands I will fit them then. The rubber wouldn't hurt on the mill, but I find my mill doesn't have any vibration that needs cushioning so steel is fine.

Dave

[Anorak Bob]

The feet are for the Schaublin mill. The manual suggests secure bolting to the floor. I need to level the mill and I don't want to start fooling around with screed and grout. There is virtually no vibration. Rubberless would be my preferred option but that's more about laziness than anything else. My Hercus needs levelling feet also.

What are you using Pete?

Dave, I will read your post tonight.

Ch4is. If rubber is better, I could try gluing it on oversize then sanding it flush with my disc sander.

BT

[Pete F]

As I said Bob, I wouldn't suggest using rubber, and if the mill's manufacturer is suggesting bolting to the floor it sounds like neither are they. My feet were purchased as machinery feet and are actually a type of hard plastic, with another veneer of different plastic on the base. Imagine a squat truncated cone, with a bolt coming out the apex and you get the idea. The whole idea is these feet shouldn't move, so once the machine is levelled it stays that way. It may not be super important for the mill, but it's what I'd be aiming for on a lathe.

Pete

[Anorak Bob]

Pete ,

What type of base does your Model C sit on? My ARL sits on two separate sheetmetal pedestals. Can you post a photo of the installed feet?

Back to the mill. Greg Q mentioned some feet he had for his FP1 but from his description these things sounded more like stilts than feet. Still, it would be interesting to find out exactly what they are. Now and again, feet of an appropriate size appear on US Ebay. They have been neither cheap nor light.

I will have a close look at the base of the mill and work out a size and design that might best suit it.

BT

[Pete F]

I'll try to get a photo of the stand up tomorrow Bob, but it sounds similar if not the same as yours; 2 pedestals separated by a shelf. On the lathe the stand had a cross brace across the base of each pedestal but I found that all a bit "noodley" with feet on it, so I made up some blocks into which the feet could be screwed and mounted the blocks as far into the corners of the stand as possible, bolted directly to the sheet metal sides. I thought this would be as rigid as that arrangement would allow.

Pete

[Metalman]

Hello Bob,
Regarding machining rubber, it is fairly easy to do and good results can be obtained. I have had to reduce the outside dia. of 10mm bore tube and the method I used was to take a piece of 10mm steel rod which was about 250mm long (the rubber was 200) put a centre in one end and then fit the steel into the rubber tube. I then put the lot into the freezer for a few hours. The steel acts as thermal mass so that the rubber stays cold for machining.
The parts were taken out of the freezer and quickly fitted between the three jaw and a revolving centre in the tail stock. I used the power traverse and the rubber came off in a long thin stream. Surface finish was good.
A picture of the tool is shown, it must be sharp and have a largish nose radius with lots or top rake. I use the same tool for the odd occasion that I need to turn wood in the lathe.
For your feet I would fit the rubber to the foot before machining.

Hand trimming or cutting rubber with a knife blade is made much easier and safer if you use water with a small amount of soap as a lubricant on the blade.
Phillip.

[Anorak Bob]

I was hoping to hear from you Phillip. I would have sent you an email tomorrow. That is a tip that will be helpful to others, no doubt.

Have you fitted feet to your mill or have you fixed it to the floor in the Schaublin prescribed manner?

Bob

[Metalman]

No I have not bolted the mill down or anything, it is sitting on some pieces of 5 mm thick plastic sheet. I was working on the principle that any irregularities in the floor would be taken up by the plastic being 'plastic'.
My lathe is sitting on 3 pieces of 8mm thick reinforced rubber to try to reduce some of the considerable noise it makes, alignment is not an issue as it is supposed to be self aligning.
Phillip

[neksmerj]

Greg's Deckel is mounted on a trolley with wheels so it can be wheeled from the kitchen to the hangar.

This is so he can go from roasting coffee to milling aircraft parts.

Ken

[Anorak Bob]

Coffee roaster, neat. That's something my Schaublin can't do!

[azzrock]

cutting a disk out of the rubber is simple just use a hole saw.

[QC Inspector]

If you lived here I would sugest a trip to the local sporting goods store for hockey pucks. :p Don't suppose a cricket ball cut in half would work? :rolleyes:



Pete

[Pete F]

Bob here's a couple of shots of some feet on my machines. The first is of the lathe, I had forgotten exactly how I did this until I saw the photo, but as you see it was actually some angle I used and bolted to the cabinet walls. That was about as rigid as I could manage. As you can see the cabinet needs some TLC ... scheduled for year 2020.
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx21/886014/Lathe/file.jpg

This is actually my preferred foot however, they were obtainable with different stud sizes (you can pick them up on your way to Europe in Hong Kong :wink: Sorry don't know a source here). Next time I'd go with a larger stud size, but it probably doesn't really matter, I think these were 8 mm from memory. Both types of foot however are gimballed so they will conform to an irregular surface. That is a shot of the surface grinder foot in a different room to the lathe. It doesn't really show very well, but that point on the floor is only rough finished and the foot is actually on quite an angle toward the camera.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx21/886014/Surface%20Grinder/file.jpg

[damian]

Many years ago I worked in a product development section that had not set it's lathe up properly. It cut wonderful pieces of spagetti.

They had made all the common mistakes. The factory was near sea level and floated on unstable soil. The lathe straddled 2 pieces of concrete. It had never been set up and they had assumed it was toast. A couple of hours and a few days wait for it to settle and it cut within a thou.

Mills are a bit stiffer but can still suffer. Me I'm fond of dynabolts or chemsets and steel shims. If you do it once right then you won't have to do it again for a long long time.

[Greg Q]

My Deckel and drill press are on special casters. They are really adjustable rubber pad feet with a wheel. Great Lakes Caster.

I have used hockey pucks, and still have a couple of new ones here, but I'm saving them for a really cold winter. Then I'll have the local puck market cornered.

[Anorak Bob]

I was looking on Franz Singer's site for some SK30 collets for Phillip "Metalman" and found these. Not pucks but definitely getting warmer. I haven't checked out the Great Lakes yet.

4 Maschinenfüße Ø60 M12 NEU Fräsmaschine / Drehmaschine | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/4-Maschinenfuse-60-M12-NEU-Frasmaschine-Drehmaschine-/120692227310?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item1c19d13cee)

[Anorak Bob]

I have now.
Great Lakes Caster - Swivel Caster with Stabilizer Leg - 1.75" Stabilizing Casters with a 220lbs capacity in motion and a 550lbs capacity when the stabilizer leg in extended. Swivel Caster with Stabilizer Leg by Great Lakes Caster : GreatLakesCaster. (http://www.greatlakescaster.com/great_lakes_caster___swivel_caster_with_stabilizer_leg___175_stabilizing_casters_with_a_220lbs_capacity_in_motion_and_a_550lbs_capacity_when_the_stabilizer_leg_in_extended-LV-1710-NYP-S-M12.php)

[Greg Q]

Look under the category for levelling castors...I use the 80 series units @ 1100 lb per corner. Even the 60 series are good, but the 80's have more beef.

Greg

(tired and greasy after spending nine hours nutting out that Perrin Freres fräsmaschine today.) Made some real progress, and even found a pair of new change gears in a bag in the sump. Happy days. The gears are the same as used in my early FP-1, same module, same hub, maybe 2mm thicker.

I spent some time thinking about how we'd fabricate a vertical head and think I have a couple of likely approaches.

[Anorak Bob]

What is appealing about the original Christen / Perrin head shown on Tony's site is the offset. Anything that provides a bit more daylight is a winner.

It is interesting to see the Schaublinesque variable speed drive on the machine featured on the site. Is it a feature of your mate's mill?

BT

[Metalman]

Greg, are you looking for metric gears for this machine? I might be able to help,
can you put up a picture of the spline and some specs.
I don't know what 'frasmaschine' means in German but 'fras' (sometimes with two s's) is Siera Hotel one Tango which comes from a wood devouring grub, appropriate perhaps.
Mm.

[neksmerj]

Frasmaschine translates into milling machine, according to Google.

Ken

[Greg Q]

I should have written fraiseuse as the Perrin is more French than German. Although it is much of both: that happiest of marriages.:( We shall see if the accuracy is the Germanic part or if the tolerances are the result of a long-ago Gaullic shrug.:oo:

(Being some large portion French, its a gesture I use too often myself)

Anyway, the mill is just a large deckel-ish contraption, devoid of any Schaublinesque features. It is interesting that Tony's site appears to wrong about the Perrin. What we have is what Tony lists as a Perron U-1. The Perrin/Christen he shows might be all Christen. It certainly looks like the Schaublin/Aciera type of mill had many more advanced features.

I am amazed at the finish on this mill: I've never seen such flawless filling and painting of what is a very curvy casting. Most of the fill and paint is in great shape, so at least that will only need a bit of attention.

Greg

[Greg Q]

Greg, are you looking for metric gears for this machine? I might be able to help,
can you put up a picture of the spline and some specs.
I don't know what 'frasmaschine' means in German but 'fras' (sometimes with two s's) is Siera Hotel one Tango which comes from a wood devouring grub, appropriate perhaps.
Mm.

Thanks Metalman, I'll put up some dimensions tomorrow. The gears are module 1.5 and have a smooth bore, but three 60º lugs, 60º apart on one face. This is the same on the Deckel. The gear pairs add up to 100 teeth, and we'd like 5 pairs made. I own the cutter set for this gear pitch, but it might be awhile before I can do them. Pressure angle doesn't matter as they are only ever in mesh with each other. (Although I expect its 14.5º given the early vintage)

Greg

[Anorak Bob]

Had I looked at the seller's photos via the PM post, I would not have asked about the variable speed drive.

The overarm setup is interesting. Being a bolt on, it is hard to imagine that it would be as rigid as the Schaublin 13 or Deckel overarms BUT there does look like a lot of metal there. It is extremely fortunate that the overarm assembly was included in the sale. It could have been misplaced as readily as the vertical head.

Bob.

[Greg Q]

Had I looked at the seller's photos via the PM post, I would not have asked about the variable speed drive.

The overarm setup is interesting. Being a bolt on, it is hard to imagine that it would be as rigid as the Schaublin 13 or Deckel overarms BUT there does look like a lot of metal there. It is extremely fortunate that the overarm assembly was included in the sale. It could have been misplaced as readily as the vertical head.

Bob.

That mounting arrangement is what I was thinking of when I made my French comment last night. That mounting lug is a large tee-slotted disc that the overarm, and missing vertical head bolt into. It in turn is coaxial with the spindle, and rotates, with a large degree index scale.

Perrin must have been the only maker to lack a dovetailed mounting arrangement atop the Y axis slide.

Also, the arrangement of using change gears for the feed speed adjustment was abandoned by Deckel in 1950. Thiel, Maho, Hispano-Suiza too by that time had selector levers. The Perrin Frères must have abandoned the mill sometime shortly afterward. This machine is ser# 248. (There are many more examples of their jig bore still around if number of Google hits is an indication.)

Compared to the FP-1 this machine is massive...castings robust and large with a very large footprint. I'm trying to talk its owner into making it into a CNC project since the x axis needs so much reverse engineering anyway.

Greg

[Metalman]

Greg, the gears I have are 2 module so it looks like they will not be of use to you. The gears came with an item I purchased at an auction, I think they came from a power driven universal dividing head which was also in the auction. H&F bought the head, I contacted them to see if they wanted to buy the gears (no sum mentioned), they were not interested. Whoever bought the head from H&F would probably love to have them.
If anyone else is interested I can put up the details and would be happy to swap for something I could use.
Mm.

[Greg Q]

It makes me want to paint my Deckel, and all of its goodies, pink. And the lathe yellow. At least that way some future auctioneer at my "GQ est mort" sale might, just might, keep those things together. :((

[Anorak Bob]

It makes me want to paint my Deckel, and all of its goodies, pink. And the lathe yellow. At least that way some future auctioneer at my "GQ est mort" sale might, just might, keep those things together. :((

Nice idea BUT I'd be leaving an instruction for the painting to be performed post mortem.