Engineering Vices nearly completed at school

[Grahame Collins]

I had to word the title carefuly as the wags among you would have had far too much fun with it.
Any the cherubs have fabricated their vice components for the most part.I have linked a quality assurance and quality control unit with the fabrication and assembly steps so the terms have real meaning.

The engagement is there as I now have to kick em outa the shed to stop for lunch rather than watch for them sneaking out early.:2tsup:

A couple of units -as usual- have found out you don't rush the last portion-the welding- and stuffed up 25 -30 hrs of fabrication.:(:(:(:(:

Well thats what they think at the moment:p-but, I know the mig welds can be tidied up - but I think I'll let them stew over the break. :D:D:D:D:D:DBut I did tell them to practice the welds on scrap of the same configuaration and size.

You will notice the tacks, not at the end of the weld bead, but in the middle or corners. They have been told why, but hey! its not sinking in too well. Some more learning, the hard way coming up!

The vice is very similiar to a Dawn fabbed 100mm vice -ours is 120mm and has m/steel jaws instead of of hardened and a spindle of 16mm rolled thread instead of 7/8" x 4 tpi Acme thread.

Dawns costs around $300, ours probably has $50 in it.

Note the drawing has mistakes all through it and thats why I have avoided posting it and the kids were working off the white board.

Grahame

[Christos]

I had to word the title carefuly as the wags among you would have had far too much fun with it.

Chicken. :U


Very cool work.

[BobL]

I know the rolled threads are smoother and harder wearing than conventional cut threads, are there any other advantages particularly in relation to the Acme thread?

[pipeclay]

I would think that threaded rod was used mainly because of price and ready availability,you also have to either be able to make or source the correct nut.
Maybe a little to advanced for students ( it would in my opinion be a turning exercise suited to a 3rd/4th yr apprentice).

[Stustoys]

Grahame,
Coming along nicely, just one thing I don't like and I know its not likely to be an issue. The insert into the C channel that carries the spindle, why don't you bring it out of the C channel so it goes the full width across the front? That way the welds wont need to carry all the load.

Stuart(who has a thing about welds carrying loads when they dont have to)

[Grahame Collins]

I would think that threaded rod was used mainly because of price and ready availability,you also have to either be able to make or source the correct nut.
Maybe a little to advanced for students ( it would in my opinion be a turning exercise suited to a 3rd/4th yr apprentice).

Spot on Pipeclay
I had put some thought into cutting an acme thread.

A. It was truly beyond some of the less talented kids

B.It would have made the job lathe itensive-which gave rise to potentially more lathe failures that would cause the project to run over deadlines and have some kids not complete the project.

C.The better kids that want to, can later on source materials for the acme spindle and the hardened jaw.

D.Tooling its a pita now,the new boss sources cheat zhit crap tooling from a chinkenese reseller.He won't buy off the local guy who supported us by bringing out the rep to demonstrate the use of carbide tooling.Now that we buy nothing from him I am embarrassed to ask.

[Grahame Collins]

Hi Stustoys,

Even with my guys welding I have no problems with that as the welding is vee prepped.The reason is I am attempting to get as many varied welding joints as I can.
I am always telling the about overwelding as causes more problems than failed welds.
I have to set up the demo for the doubting thomases where I will weld a 25mm fillet and lift a ton weight off the ground.

They will turn the10mm vice tommy bar into a pretzel long before the weld would fail.

I am told was designed so that it would fail .

Grahame

[Stustoys]

The reason is I am attempting to get as many varied welding joints as I can.
Fair enough.


I am told was designed so that it would fail .

Dawn claim that about the handles on the cast vices. I assume it applies to their built up ones. I'm pretty sure I saw it on the web page somewhere.
Stuart

[.RC.]

Looks good Grahame...

[Dave J]

Hi Grahame,
You must be a really good teacher and make it interesting enough to have turned these kids around, that they are now willing to work on their job without worrying about the breaks/time, Well done :2tsup:

Just one thing I am wondering with the vice is, why don't the gussets go up to support the jaws? I would have thought it would be a lot stronger and resist any flexing.

Other than that great job and keep up the great work. We need more teachers like you in our schools.
I remember a couple of industrial arts teachers we had in high school that would let a mate and me in the wood work and metal work rooms through lunch times so we could work on our jobs, they would just come out of the staff room every now and then to check on us. It beat sitting around the school grounds doing nothing.

Dave

[neksmerj]

GC,

Good on ya mate. At least the kids will have something decent to take home.

When I did my training, I made a nice 3" cast iron vice. Got 10 out of 10 for it, and it was later nicked. Was I p.ssed off!

How are the kids going with the pocket scriber project?

Ken

[BobL]

I remember a couple of industrial arts teachers we had in high school that would let a mate and me in the wood work and metal work rooms through lunch times so we could work on our jobs, they would just come out of the staff room every now and then to check on us. It beat sitting around the school grounds doing nothing.

The teacher we had "would let some of his favorite students into the metal work room during lunch times as long has we worked on his jobs". He had a part time business making custom made trailers - to give him his dues he did donate one trailer a year to the annual school fete and it was raffled off to raise money for the school. He was a good teacher but did not stand for anyone that mucked about and they often copped a steel ruler to the back of the legs.

[Dave J]

One of those teachers used to cane you if you mucked up to much. He was about 5ft nothing and used to stand on a chair because the young blokes where to tall.
I got 6 with the cane off the deputy on the first day of high school for fighting and the second day for going out of the grounds to buy lunch at the fish and chip shop. Never got it again after that, I guess I wised up to not getting caught. LOL

Dave

[.RC.]

ROFL Dave..

[eskimo]

guess I wised up to not getting caught. LOL



Took ya a while to wake up to the fact that if ya dont get caught ya cant get into trouble?
gee I learnt that real quick....

:D:D:D:D

[eskimo]

You will notice the tacks, not at the end of the weld bead, but in the middle or corners. They have been told why, but hey! its not sinking in too well.

can you let this dumb ole far% in on the secret too!????

[franco]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grahame Collins http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/button2/viewpost.gif (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/engineering-vices-nearly-completed-school-133942/#post1303693)
I am told was designed so that it would fail .

Dawn claim that about the handles on the cast vices. I assume it applies to their built up ones. I'm pretty sure I saw it on the web page somewhere.
Stuart

Stuart,

Really? Wonder if they would exchange mine for a new one then? (Just joking!)

I bought it twenty years ago from a factory which was closing down where, from the appearance of the handle which is now S shaped, it had obviously had a hard life in the welding shop. If you look closely it has been broken and repaired by bronze welding below the moving jaw. Since the repair had been very competently done, and the vyce had seen considerable use in the welding shop after the repair, I reckoned it was worth the risk, and paid $20 for it. Twenty years later it is still going strong - best $20 I ever spent I think.

Frank.

[Stustoys]

Franco,
The vices I have heard of being broken haven't been from tightening, it's when the work held in the jaws was twisted. e.g. undoing some huge pipe fitting with a 6ft piece of pipe on the spanner.
There was a rumour at tech that if you did them up really tight on a hot day that they could crack when they cooled at night
Although in a welding shop if you have done something in the jaws real tight and then heated it up, maybe that would do it?

I have a vice like that one but its a Carter(never heard of them but then I've never looked either. I bet BT has one lol). It was a mess when I got it so its now blue. It had a hard life in a brake shop. The jaw lifts about 2mm as it closes. Still it was free so I can't complain to loudly lol

Stuart

[new_guy90]

I wish I had a Teacher like you when I was in school Grahame those vices look really neat I might have to make one of those vices for my mill at work :wink:

[Grahame Collins]

can you let this dumb ole far% in on the secret too!????

Avoid placing the tack bead in the middle of a run as you have to weld over it andd spoil the visual profile of the bead. Some place far too much tack volume and the weld has a big FXXXn hump in it.

Tacks are ideally placed at opposite ends of the item to be welded. Ideally diagaonally opposed as this helps prevent weld distortion.


Grahame

[Grahame Collins]

Ken,
The scriber project is for yr 11s and and I have yr 12s, 2 classes of them .

The scriber drawings were made available to the yr 11 teacher but at this stage he has got them chewing out work on Ms bar making a stepped drift.

Rest assured Ken old mate the scriber will be started next year when I get my new group of 11 s next year.

The other teacher has let his 11's start straight onto carbide .No instruction on use and they are snapping the points of them as they start the machines back into reverse etc.No reference to spindle speeds to match diameters .

I have the spndle speeds data from TAFe green book posted up on the store door.Same deal with the drill press speed data. I won't respond when they ask for a speed or rpm but have them consult the chart:D

[.RC.]

[QUOTE=Grahame Collins;1304120]
The other teacher has let his 11's start straight onto carbide ./QUOTE]


hmmm I take it he is not paying for the inserts...

[China]

Stuart, Carter vices were around before Dawn, I have had a small 5" model for 40 years, I beleive Siddons which was The Dawn parent company at the time bought them out and closed them down to remove competition

[Grahame Collins]

[QUOTE=Grahame Collins;1304120]
The other teacher has let his 11's start straight onto carbide ./QUOTE]


hmmm I take it he is not paying for the inserts...
RC.
As they say don't get me started .
Theres a bit of a mindset there .
Some at school say that all Industry wants is training in carbide use.I say nonsense as not all kids go into manufacture.People who do one off repairs can't afford the big array of carbide tooling ,ie tools holders etc.

However a trained machinist can grind their own HSS and quickly effect a repair with minimum cost.

And s o it goes on.

Grahame

[eskimo]

ta grahame..i'll keep that in my head..... somewhere.

I must admit I do do tack welds where I then need to go over...hopefully I'll be able to recall your tip when needed....but then it really doesnt matter to the appearance of my welds...they cant get any worse looking:-

I must practice welding more..i have a mig and its also a stick but cant get the hang of it (but it is easier than the old transarc)...some times the welds are good but this is very very rare...another reason why I own angle an grinder or two:U

[Grahame Collins]

Hi,

I have to write a power point presentation for the students on tacking so I can flick you are copy.

If you want a copy PM me and I'll send you one as an attachment.
You will need to instal MS power point reader or have a copy of powerpoint.


Grahame

[Ropetangler]

Hi Grahame,
If not too much trouble, can I have a copy too please? You can send it to r dot r dot gore at bigpond dot com, just make the obvious adjustment. Many thanks for your continued assistance to all forum members, and congratulations on getting through with at least some of your students, In just a few short years they will look back with fondness and gratitude to that 'grumpy old bugger' that taught them so much, and they will treasure those vices too.:2tsup: Regards,
Rob.

[Stustoys]

China,
Thanks for that, nice to know.

Stuart

p.s. been away for the weekend

[old_fella]

[quote=.RC.;1304126]
RC.
As they say don't get me started .
Theres a bit of a mindset there .
Some at school say that all Industry wants is training in carbide use.I say nonsense as not all kids go into manufacture.People who do one off repairs can't afford the big array of carbide tooling ,ie tools holders etc.

However a trained machinist can grind their own HSS and quickly effect a repair with minimum cost.

And s o it goes on.

Grahame


At work we use carbide for general turning and some milling but there is still alot of use for hss as we use it for thread turning and it comes in handy machining plastics etc as you can get a sharp edge, also is good for interrupted cutting where the carbide is more likely to chip.

[Jarh73]

This thread brings back a lot of memories for me back in 1988/89 i did metalwork as an elective for years 9 & 10 at Eden High School.

The teacher was really good to any kids that showed intiative and wanted to build something more advanced.

So a few of us made a torque wrench, Warren and Brown Style.

Never fully finished it still needed the clicker made up but I still have it stored away, think i might drag it out and finish it. I have a mate that can laser engrave the torque settings too. And yes it uses proper torque wrench steel for the critcal bit the teacher ordered that in for us.

Should be way more metal work and woood work for that matter in the high school system.

Cheers

Justin

[Grahame Collins]

H

Just one thing I am wondering with the vice is, why don't the gussets go up to support the jaws? I would have thought it would be a lot stronger and resist any flexing.
.
Dave

Hi Dave,
Because the support end s on the originals are too bloody close to the holes.The kids always manage to get an arc strike in there and foul the hole. The handle is only 10mm diam so thats the intended failure point.

Its 10mm plate unbraced for 15 mm or so. Its not going to flex given the limits on tension imposed by the handle diameter.

Grahame

[Dave J]

Thanks for the reply.
I was just wondering because the milled step looks like it starts where the support finishes, and if something was held at the top of the jaws it would have to extra leverage.

Dave

[BobL]

The manufacturer Dawns are the same. Welding stops just short of the hole.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/167886d1303477119-electrolysis-using-old-computer-power-supply-vicefinished1.jpg

[Grahame Collins]

Hi All,
The milled step was just an excuse to use the mill in an exercise that they have not used before. It made it easier to fit and match drill the holes.

The original drawing did not have this but it had so many omissions and errors that I did not use it, but winged it from memory.We drew it up on a white board and ammended it where necessary. I can't master the CAD for the life of me, so it will be a while before the boss can get to it if at all.

Having worked with kids on the same vice about 5 years back I recalled they overwelded the fixed jaw assembly which shrunk the assembly to the slide and a club hammer was required to bash them apart. The fix was a assembly spacer saddle of .6mm sheet which fits over the saddle during the assembly tack up.

Also missing was the compression spring fitted inside the slide and retained by flat washer and split pin,which pushes the slider jaw out.

Another one is clearance between the bottom jaw support and the top face of the chanell .It requires a few parts of a millimeter with the grinder ,before assembly.

One of the kids suggested setting the screws in to the vice jaws to give it better lines, but that was after we had drilled the holes. So, some did it that way.
As a result we have 2 variations of the vice.

With some, the vice jaws were tapped and with some the jaw supports were tapped with the jaws being recessed for the cap head screws.

Hanging off a 10mm handle theres no way enough tension could be generated to deflect the jaw supports. If a leverage (pipe) is used that will merely bend the handle.In any case its really diffrent from the Dawn fabbed jobby as the spindle is just rolled 16mm thread,where the dawn is ACME 7/8" x 4TPI type.
The kids have used screwed ferrules on the handle and some decided against advice to knurl them. ????

Hopefully we will have finisihed the ball turner shortly and the handles will sprout spherical ferrule ends.

The offset vice pictures where the weld ended short was probably to clear the bolts.

When the drawing is upgraded those omissions will be entered.

The exercise was effective however as it provided a learning opportunity for some problem solving.

Grahame