best/good brand for milling machine bits.

[thumbsucker]

Hi - I am looking for recommendations for the best/good brand for milling machine bits. In particular I am looking for a 20 degree bit. Also I am looking for a supplier.

My impression is that a 20 degree cutter is hard to find. I found this article (http://www.cnccookbook.com/MTMillDovetail.htm) on making your own custom angle dovetail cutter. The question is were would I get the carbide tip pieces?

[pipeclay]

A 20 degree bit of what.

[thumbsucker]

I am making some infill planes, and will be using a waterjet cutter to cut the basic shape out then I want to use a dovetail bit to clean up the joints.

[bollie7]

Hi - I am looking for recommendations for the best/good brand for milling machine bits. In particular I am looking for a 20 degree bit. Also I am looking for a supplier.

My impression is that a 20 degree cutter is hard to find. I found this article (http://www.cnccookbook.com/MTMillDovetail.htm) on making your own custom angle dovetail cutter. The question is were would I get the carbide tip pieces?

The std triangular tip used in the article mentioned will be 30 deg. I haven't measured one but a Diamond shaped tip might be closer to 20 deg.
If you are not making a lot of your planes, it might be easier and cheaper to use a fly cutter with the HSS ground to the angle you want.

bollie7

[RayG]

Hi TS,

Are you sure it's 20 degrees, I would have thought 70 degrees more likely?

As Bollie says, A fly cutter ground from HSS would be easier. I take it the material is brass alloy 260?

Regards
Ray

[bollie7]

The std triangular tip used in the article mentioned will be 30 deg.
bollie7

Ohh DUH - make that 60 deg:doh: Must have had a bit of brain fade this morning - due for a holiday, which incidently I started this arvo. yes, almost 2 weeks off.

bollie7

[neksmerj]

Thumbsucker,

Are you talking 20 degrees off vertical? You haven't responded to some of the later threads.

We are all here to help, just need more info.

Ken

[thumbsucker]

Sorry for the delay but I have been busy with Uni. I hope this information is some help in filling out the details. This project is part of my graduate diploma studies at the ANU in Canberra. Its late, so forgive me if this post is fragmented, and a little terse at times.

The space between the dovetails is only 14 mm at the narrowest point, I quick look seems to say that fly cutters do not come in very small sizes 3/8" is the smallest I could find.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=167732&stc=1&d=1303305609
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=167731&stc=1&d=1303305609
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=167730&stc=1&d=1303305609

Why bother with design - Just Copy


Without deviation, progress is not possible. — Frank Zappa

The definition of post graduate study is that the student must contribute something new to the body of human knowledge. I cannot copy nor would I wish to. One of the most important things in engineering design is to fail. Its only by failing that we make progress. Making copies of copies proves only one thing :;.

Today I went to the engineering library on campus and borrowed engineering design books. I need fresh ideas. The people in Gold & Silver workshop (whose machines I am using), have no idea what a plane is let alone how one works. They come up with these absolutely bizarre notions that a first day woodworker would realize are stupid. The people in the furniture workshop are to trapped by tradition of what a plane is. They cannot see past their noses.

Then I am stuck with Uni administrators, who find me an interruptions to their all to cool, black wearing, chardonnay drinking, artistic little world view. At times I think they wished I would just vanish.

I might have to reach out to an old friend in the School of Engineering.

I am forced to straddle the perspectives of traditionalist stuck in the past, modernist demanding that less is more, post-modernist with their heads up their assses, woodworkers, and engineers. I am getting a little tiered of getting Rogered on all sides.

:minigun:


If you have a nuts absolutely of out on a limb idea, I would love to discuss it.

The only givens I have at the moment is its length, and there will be three planes with different bedding angles.

I have approached a know infill maker on this forum, but he does not seem interested in advising me. Since he found out that I will not be sawing and filing everything. If you do not do it his way you are wrong :roll:

I have based these drawings from photographs of all the online sources I could find. This is version 04. I have made 1:1 scale models, and I am happy with the basic shape. I have developed a great respect for the simplicity of the side profile design. This is truly form follows function. The bare essence. I have decided to accept the tools aesthetics for what it is a classic. I have also decided against doing fancy inlays, of wood, or ivory. I wish to hold the design in the minimalist tradition.

You may ask why so small, its about the size of a No.1


My reasons are many, material is expensive, and I am a student.
I was very taken by a similar sized coffin smoother built by Sauer & Steiner.
The bloke instinct is to super size everything, I want these to be intimate tools, not member extensions.
I like small planes.
Woman and non woodworkers I feel will be more open to their smaller size.


I am working on version 05. There are things I do not know or I am unsure about:


How far down should the leading edge of the lever cap go.
How small is to small for the throat to resist chocking (Question 1, affects 2).
I am not 100% sure about mouth placement. For its length this is about as far back as I can go, before I run out /cramps out out of space for the rear hand.



Its my intention to make three coffin smoothers as follows:


6 mm with tools steel sole, and a 4 mm thick brass sides, with a bedding angle of 50º. Infill timber will be Huon.
6 mm with tools steel sole, and a 4 mm thick tools steel sides, with a bedding angle of 55º. Infill Timber Possible American Black Walnut.
6 mm with tools steel sole, and a 4 mm thick Damascus steel sides, with a bedding angle of 60º. Infill Timber will be Stabilized Box Elder Burl.


This is a photo of damascus I got:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=167734&stc=1&d=1303305877

The reason for making three is to:


Compare and contrast different materials used.
Compare and contrast different bedding angles.
Allows me to practice the same machining tasks again and again.
I love to see tool families.



The lever caps will be done by hand, bandsaw and milling machine out of brass/steel. I am not happy with it. I want something thinner, and sleeker, its to chunky and lacks refinement.

To be honest I think a steel lever cap would be best for the steel and the Damascus sided planes. The brass sided plane will have a brass levercap.

What steel would people recommend for the lever cap. Mild is soft. O1 is expensive. Maybe something with some nickel in it for shine.

The best lever caps I have seen are by Sauer & Steiner. They are copies of the classic. But I have trouble telling dimensions from skewed photos. Modern or Stanley style lever caps are out of place. :(

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=167733&stc=1&d=1303305609

I have a special plan for the cap screw. Instead of knurling it. I have taken inspirations from a jet engine propellor blade/fan. I will turn the cap screw, then cut 30º slopping slits going from top to bottom of the knob, then I will round over the slits edges. Its hard to explain. This drawing shows the plan view of the slits.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=167728&d=1303304801

This shows it in 3D but it will be in a sphere-ish shape rather then a tube. Limits of my CAD showing.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=167729&d=1303304801

Its basically the classic cap screw knob shape, but with a different approach to how it will fell in the hand.

At this point, I will be waterjet cutting out the soles, and the steel sides. The brass and Damascus sides will be cut mostly by bandsaw and hand (because they are small pieces of metal. Then everything will be cleaned up with a milling machine.

Why not do it by hand?

I do not have 20 years to practice, and I cannot afford to make planes only good for being used. They must be faultless. These will go before a post graduate review panel. They must be works of art, that are square, flat, with no solder, filler or fudge.

With the wide-scale availability of CNC production methods and machining, it makes little technical or economical sense to hanker for a bygone era.


Regarding my original question of Tooling

I will need to buy a bullnose bit, for the lever cap. I still need to find a dovetailing tooling solution for cleaning up the sides.

I straight bit will work fine for the dovetails in the sole. I will place the sole on its edge and then angle the vice on the bed and make successive passes at one angle, then rotating the sole and cutting back in the opposite direction.

[antoni]

Hi

links in valid link.???
Tony

[RayG]

Hi Helmut,

Wow, great project, looks like you are getting serious.

Answering questions at random... Starting with the lever cap...

Mild steel is fine for the lever cap on the damascus model Most lever caps are brass, so mild steel is plenty hard enough.

I think, bring the tip of the lever cap a bit closer to the anti-chatter block, maybe a little thinner? A lot of lever caps are slightly concave on the bottom so the contact point with the iron is at the tip. (not to be confused with cap-irons :) )

I think there are others on the forum better qualified to help with the best approach for milling the lever cap. Anorack Bob is making a cast iron infill, machined from solid.

I'll study the drawings and come back with some suggestions in the next few days.

Regards
Ray

[Anorak Bob]

"With the wide-scale availability of CNC production methods and machining, it makes little technical or economical sense to hanker for a bygone era."

One essential hand skill that can't be substituted, is the peening of the dovetails and the rods that secure the infill. Have you had a go at this on a sample joint?

The blade bed angles sound steep. I'm under the impression that Norris commonly used an angle of 47 1/2 degrees. Over in the hand tools forum you will find considerable discussion about appropriate angles.

I'm only making my look-a-like using the mill for roughing out the shape because I'm too lazy to make a pattern for casting. Most of the work will be done by hand with files.

Bob.

[thumbsucker]

RayG - glad to see you here. I will update my drawings with your points.

Anorak Bob - I have had practice for penning dovetails, it worked out well. I will make more practice, especially the rod. Thanks for the advice.

Anorak Bob - from a traditional perspective you are correct. However every modern maker of infills makes higher pitch planes, not even to consider all the HNT Gordon planes, and the bevel up planes. Planes are being pitches from 12º to 90º.

An important question to ask yourself when you ever design something. Is to ask the Socratic reasoning method of yourself - What is "correct" with 47.5º, over any other bedding angle. Can you find any other bedding angle used? Yes we can. Stanley uses 20º to 45º. Therefore 47.5º in not the correct or the complete truth.

[Anorak Bob]

"An important question to ask yourself when you ever design something. Is to ask the Socratic reasoning method of yourself - What is "correct" with 47.5º, over any other bedding angle. Can you find any other bedding angle used? Yes we can. Stanley uses 20º to 45º. Therefore 47.5º in not the correct or the complete truth."

You might think I'm new to all this but having spent the past three decades involved and employed in the areas of design, craft and architecture, I have had some exposure to and experience with Socratic questioning. Rigorous and unrelentling as an undergraduate, less rigorous as an employee at several architectural practices. Constraints of time (and money) have a way of limiting the exploration of alternatives.

My comment about the blade angle was based on my experience of owning a post - war A5 Norris. The blade angle suited the timber I used that plane on, mainly jarrah, some of which was curly (or fiddleback). Given that it worked well for me, why would I change it?

Bob.

[thumbsucker]

[B]Constraints of time (and money) have a way of limiting the exploration of alternatives.

I have the time to explore. I am making three planes. With three bedding angles. This will allow me to explore the difference between 50º, 55º and 60º. Giving me the ability to empirically compare the bedding angles. The 50º is only 2.5º higher then traditional. 55º is now established as bedding angle for infills amongst modern makers. The 60º is not so common in infill's, however not without precedence. Many other intermediate angles are being used, like 52.5º. No one is more legitimate than any other.

While a specific angle maybe useful in some specific woods, One cannot extrapolate that because in one limited context that a bedding angle will work in all contexts.



why would I change it?

I was under the impression that I was making these planes, as far as I know I never asked you to change. It is my deviation, and with so the progress well be mine.

In my view, bedding angles are one of the most mute points. I am rather interested in other areas as per my above post.

[Dave J]

I have the time to explore. I am making three planes. With three bedding angles. This will allow me to explore the difference between 50º, 55º and 60º. Giving me the ability to empirically compare the bedding angles. The 50º is only 2.5º higher then traditional. 55º is now established as bedding angle for infills amongst modern makers. The 60º is not so common in infill's, however not without precedence. Many other intermediate angles are being used, like 52.5º. No one is more legitimate than any other.

While a specific angle maybe useful in some specific woods, One cannot extrapolate that because in one limited context that a bedding angle will work in all contexts.




I was under the impression that I was making these planes, as far as I know I never asked you to change. It is my deviation, and with so the progress well be mine.

In my view, bedding angles are one of the most mute points. I am rather interested in other areas as per my above post.

I am not sure why the sarcasm is been given to Bob :?
He never asked you to change it, only suggested that Norris used 47 1/2 degrees and you could get more information on angles from the hand tools section.
Bob is a very good machinist and has made some really nice wood work gear, you may learn something from him.

Dave

[Stustoys]

you may learn something from him.
Then again maybe he wont, after all failure is the aim.
Its only by failing that we make progress

[Anorak Bob]

Thank you Dave.

I don't need this coming from someone who suggests that I should thoroughly question every decision I make.

I participate in this forum for enjoyment not confrontation.

BT

[Dave J]

Thank you Dave.


I participate in this forum for enjoyment not confrontation.

BT

Hi Bob, I agree, it's enjoyable here 99% of the time.
If we wanted confrontational we would post on PM :boxing5::smack:LOL

Dave

[RayG]

Hi All,

It's so easy to get the wrong impression. I've been an admirer of TS ever since joining this forum a few years back, he has been the organizer of many group purchases and selflessly given his time to others time and time again. How he gets the energy to do it all I don't know. I've organized a few group purchases myself and it's a lot of work!..

Perhaps a bit of back ground is needed to explain the bedding angle response. This project of his (TS that is) of making an infill plane started several years ago, and has been through the gamut of many design iterations, the result of many discussions on bevel up versus bevel down, infill, versus marcou endless discussions on karl holtey and sauer and steiner... the decision to make three planes with different bedding angles 50, 55 and 60 degrees has been arrived at after much deliberation and research.. (I'm sure, as I've been witness to some of the seemingly endless discussions)..

When Bob helpfully (and with all good intent) suggested the Norris bedding angle of 47.5 degrees, it triggered a bit of a testy reply (perhaps really not warranted either) from TS.

I hope that clarifies some of the missing background, and I'm sure no offence was intended.

Regards
Ray

[Anorak Bob]

It was a rhetorical question.

[Greg Q]

In my view, bedding angles are one of the most mute points. I am rather interested in other areas as per my above post.

Since you had a go at Bob, cop this: moot

[RayG]

Hi TS,

First, some questions, what sort of finish have you been getting on the waterjet cut M2 and D2 chisels and plane blade parts?

In other words how much cleaning up is needed?

Second, It's important that the bottom of those dovetails be perfectly flat and straight. So that when you peen (pein) the sole in place the sole will pull up flat and square.

Thirdly, you might have to consider making a jig to hold the parts in the shape of the final curve, otherwise you might find the parts are perfectly cut, but can't be assembled. :)

I used a wooden jig for bending, but for this small size, I suggest a carefully bandsawn block of aluminium to hold the shape while being milled... dunno, tricky problem...

EDIT: You will need two jigs to hold the curve, one for each side... Unless you flip it upside down for the other side.. Do you have access to a wire cutter? If so that might be a good way to make the jigs needed.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/167731d1303305609-best-good-brand-milling-machine-bits-picture-2.png

I would suggest a dovetail cutter with an angle more acute than the 70 degree finished angle and do the job in three steps. The length of the cutter would need to be deeper than the depth of the dovetails as well. One pass on each side and once for the baseline. Might be a bit tricky to do the setup..

Regards
Ray

PS, for the double dovetail relief cuts on the sole, it might be easier to just file them....